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Future of the metaverse, and all that


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1 minute ago, Penny Patton said:

Eh. This is only partially true. While other games and platforms have some features reminiscent to SL's, there's no single platform that provides all of SL's key features, or the nearly unrestricted freedom to use those features.

I don't dispute that. However, the fact that those features haven't evolved or adapted to the modern trend puts SL in a precarious position.

1 minute ago, Penny Patton said:

I think LL is relatively safe for the time being. No other attempt at a "metaverse" has had any long term appeal, largely because they lack the right combination of features and freedom that remain SL's biggest draws.

True, though I never implied as such and to be honest it is that very combination of features and freedoms a person has that limits Second Life in what LL can do to keep with trends etc. For example, one hint from Linden lab that the freedom to keep those outdated sculpt build in your inventory is being removed, massive userbase decrease. One hint that they will be updating the engine meaning people will have to buy a new computer, massive user decrease. One hint that they will be updating the default body massive user decrease. They have shot themselves in the foot so to speak.

Risks in decisions must be taken to move forward. LL have never done this and so it is only a matter of time before a company like Roblox expand to take more and more of what makes SL unique as whole as they are not scared of making such decisions.

1 minute ago, Penny Patton said:

How long will that last? Who knows? But nearly twenty years on and we've yet to see a real competitor appear. Even LL's attempt at a next gen platform greatly reigned in the freedom and lacked some key SL features.

As I said, Second Life is on life support until Tilia makes more money, of which considering what they are doing wont be long.  SL has been on life support for years, it was just that COVID gave a blip to make it look like it was doing better.

As to sansar, that was dead in the water from the start and should never have even got passed the title on the ideas page. They were trying to compete in an already established market and had nothing to do with Second Life and was never a competitor to start with.

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7 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

As to sansar, that was dead in the water from the start and should never have even got passed the title on the ideas page. They were trying to compete in an already established market and had nothing to do with Second Life and was never a competitor to start with.

I can't agree with that. At the beginning, before Sansar was started, it was described to us as 'the next generation', saying that, "If we don't do it, someone else will". We imagined it as SL2 at the time, and it might have been if VR technology had been taken up much more than it has been. I might well have happened, and, imo, LL wasn't wrong in heading down that road. Where they went wrong, also imo, is not recognising that VR simply wasn't being taken up as much as they'd imagined. They stuck at it way too long.

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33 minutes ago, lucagrabacr said:

I can't get into too much details for a few reasons but they are things that are not so apparent, these are real and SL is far from having no chance

I have never said that Second Life didn't have a chance at becoming relevant or even pole position again. In fact I said that there were many ways that LL could take that would make that happen.

What I did say however was that it will never happen as LL just cant update their system or provide any form of substantial change to make that happen. This doesn't even take into consideration their past timeline of which shows they just cant produce any form of significant change quick enough to make a difference.

1 minute ago, Phil Deakins said:

I can't agree with that. At the beginning, before Sansar was started, it was described to us as 'the next generation', saying that, "If we don't do it, someone else will". We imagined it as SL2 at the time, and it might have been if VR technology had been taken up much more than it has been. I might well have happened, and, imo, LL wasn't wrong in heading down that road. Where they went wrong, also imo, is not recognising that VR simply wasn't being taken up as much as they'd imagined. They stuck at it way too long.

No the two are different. It did start of as a SL2.0 (ideas wise) but it evolved into something similar to what was already established. A closed of experience style program already existed in such things like Roblox where you download 'experiences' to play. Roblox even call them experiences just like sansar does.

The other issue is that Linden Lab took 'the next generation' as meaning Virtual Reality despite Virtual Reality never getting a foot hold in the world despite being tried over and over since the 80's. It still hasn't either as it is just as expensive and clunky as it was back then. This is where their research failed.

Then there was the issue of them closing of worlds meaning huge downloads rather than expanding on the dynamic system that SL already had. Something that reworking the SL cache to allow for separate region folders that can be saved as favourites etc would eliminate the rewriting over most visited regions when the cache gets too full.

Then there was also the failure on their part at just simply being to slow at development like we see in SL and releasing a product that a person at the start couldn't even sit on a chair. It then took them 3 years to actually put decent functionality into the program and even then it didn't even compete with what was out their let alone their already established offering.

It was dead in the water because established programs were already out there and finished and LL took on more than they can chew consequently releasing a half finished program just like we see them do in features for SL.

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2 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

I don't dispute that. However, the fact that those features haven't evolved or adapted to the modern trend puts SL in a precarious position.

I don't disagree. Just pointing out that there is no immediate competition.

6 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

to be honest it is that very combination of features and freedoms a person has that limits Second Life in what LL can do to keep with trends etc.

I agree. For the most part. Hard disagree that updating the system avatars would necessarily result in any sort of mass exodus. LL would have to really botch it for that to happen. But I do agree with the broader sentiment that SL's older content is holding it back.

14 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

As I said, Second Life is on life support until Tilia makes more money, of which considering what they are doing wont be long.  SL has been on life support for years, it was just that COVID gave a blip to make it look like it was doing better.

As long as it's still making LL money I doubt we'll see them turning off the lights. SL could remain "on life support" for many, many years.

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Business (especially those rooted in any kind of technology) have to be able to transition and move there customers forward as that technology advances.

In the case of Kodak, they were successful at that for the bulk of their lifespan, film process and formats evolved and superseded each other constantly and Kodak always found a way to sell that core film product. The failure came when they were unable to walk away from what had been seen as that core part of the business, the actual film.

Linden Lab is not at that point with Second Life, Sansar might have fostered accelerationist hopes from some, (Second Life's reputation being more a stain the badge of honor), but those weren't shared by everyone and there was no desire to migrate the existing customer base.

Second Life desperately needs platform progression of some kind. Growth depends on this.

The alternative is a maintenance mode that scales down in running costs along with it's ever decreasing, aging userbase. 

Guess which one we got.

 

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2 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Second Life desperately needs platform progression of some kind. Growth depends on this.

There's a lot of room for growth in the current architecture, but not in the current code.

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8 minutes ago, animats said:

There's a lot of room for growth in the current architecture, but not in the current code.

Growth can't be delivered by incremental software revision. 

Do you seriously think something like better region crossings is going to reverse a decades long trend of steadily declining users and corporate depression?

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"Modern trends" is not much of a description.  Can you expound upon this some?  I would like to hear what would fix Second Life, and less about what didn't.

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15 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

I don't dispute that. However, the fact that those features haven't evolved or adapted to the modern trend puts SL in a precarious position.

True, though I never implied as such and to be honest it is that very combination of features and freedoms a person has that limits Second Life in what LL can do to keep with trends etc. For example, one hint from Linden lab that the freedom to keep those outdated sculpt build in your inventory is being removed, massive userbase decrease. One hint that they will be updating the engine meaning people will have to buy a new computer, massive user decrease. One hint that they will be updating the default body massive user decrease. They have shot themselves in the foot so to speak.

Risks in decisions must be taken to move forward. LL have never done this and so it is only a matter of time before a company like Roblox expand to take more and more of what makes SL unique as whole as they are not scared of making such decisions.

As I said, Second Life is on life support until Tilia makes more money, of which considering what they are doing wont be long.  SL has been on life support for years, it was just that COVID gave a blip to make it look like it was doing better.

As to sansar, that was dead in the water from the start and should never have even got passed the title on the ideas page. They were trying to compete in an already established market and had nothing to do with Second Life and was never a competitor to start with.

I don't see any of this backed up by facts.

The Lindens created Sansar to have another option in case this very heavy load of sims and old things like sculpties and system bodies became so heavy that they could gradually built

But the old thing really isn't THAT heavy, how many petabytes it takes up, and is still profitable. Profitable. As in making millions of dollars for owners AND users. You do not kill a thing like that on the Internet, where most things lose money, and take all the user assets of identity and footprint as well and cause social havoc.

The Lindens were caught up in the VR scramble and fad and gradually realized that was too heavy a thing to keep carrying, too. And fortunately they sold it, even though that meant a lot of people were put out of work. The staff of the company has to worry about asset-stripping capitalists, or asset-dumping capitalists, not the users, but then programmers who earn 6 figures can be hired in a jiffy at Facebook or Google, and more service-oriented staff like builders or community management can go work other games or worlds, as battle-tested, hardened creatures with superior abilities.

Roblox can never make anything like SL given its block-like basis. It can make the blocks up very pretty and shaded and innovative, but they aren't sculpties or mesh. The minute they lay on sculpties or mesh, let alone prims that aren't blocks, they will have the very heavy load that LL has had and huge investment, and they aren't stupid.

I don't see that Tilia can make money from Upland, but they can make a modest amount from LL.

When a company isn't in a space, they may feel they have to compete to stay relevant, so now they've done that and show that yes, VR goggles and virtual reality, as distinguished from virtual WORLDS, is not a thing now, and won't be for some time, and even when Microsoft or Google get busy with it, it will be terrible. 

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4 hours ago, Ardy Lay said:

"Modern trends" is not much of a description.  Can you expound upon this some?  I would like to hear what would fix Second Life, and less about what didn't.

Modern trends would be akin to things like making a full or partial 3D mobile client around 2013-15. Instead it is 2021 of which they are just starting on making a mobile client of which is only text based when competitors have full 3D ones.

Another example would be 10 years ago or so when they did their first tier reduction started to diversify their income stream by offering different premium tiers. Come 2021 Super Duper premium is still just a 'soon' thing that was first mentioned as been in the works in early 2019.

Allowing plugins to the default viewer rather than relying on many different TPV's is another modern trend.

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

The Lindens created Sansar to have another option in case this very heavy load of sims and old things like sculpties and system bodies became so heavy that they could gradually built

Your point is moot. The fact remains if Linden Lab had focused on evolving second life (even if that meant breaking content like sculpties) they would have never needed to think as such. It is the fear they have of breaking content that led them down the path of that thinking and has led them down the path of simply never being able to evolve Second Life enough to garner new users.

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The staff of the company has to worry about .... not the users,

Exactly, and from not listening to their users who simply wanted a replica of Second Life just with improved graphics, evolved content creation etc they went with SANSAR the complete opposite of what their userbase wanted and something that was already around in a similar form.

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Roblox can never make anything like SL given its block-like basis. It can make the blocks up very pretty and shaded and innovative, but they aren't sculpties or mesh. The minute they lay on sculpties or mesh, let alone prims that aren't blocks, they will have the very heavy load that LL has had and huge investment, and they aren't stupid.

You do realise that 'sculpties' do not exist in any other game in history?

Additionally Roblox's creation system is near identical to Second Life's in world prim creation technology just enhanced and better optimised (which LL should have done) and done in a specific building viewer which allows for plugins - something LL refuse to allow for their viewer. In other words they build the world with blocks. The fact that you don't even know that shows you have never researched Roblox.

As to how Roblox can look with no lag you also have no idea and the evidence says otherwise. Once again the difference is, that UNLIKE Second Life, Roblox has evolved to have in most cases better graphics than Second Life. These vids are of WIP's and prove you are wrong in your statements. There is a little LOD popping but that isnt in all of Roblox games as it is still WIP.

As you say, Roblox can never look anything like Second Life 🙄 or did you mean that SL can render past 64 draw distance without lagging unlike the above video example?

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I don't see that Tilia can make money from Upland, but they can make a modest amount from LL.

According to your logic, banks don't make money either.

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25 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Modern trends would be akin to things like making a full or partial 3D mobile client around 2013-15. Instead it is 2021 of which they are just starting on making a mobile client of which is only text based when competitors have full 3D ones.

Another example would be 10 years ago or so when they did their first tier reduction started to diversify their income stream by offering different premium tiers. Come 2021 Super Duper premium is still just a 'soon' thing that was first mentioned as been in the works in early 2019.

Allowing plugins to the default viewer rather than relying on many different TPV's is another modern trend.

Your point is moot. The fact remains if Linden Lab had focused on evolving second life (even if that meant breaking content like sculpties) they would have never needed to think as such. It is the fear they have of breaking content that led them down the path of that thinking and has led them down the path of simply never being able to evolve Second Life enough to garner new users.

Exactly, and from not listening to their users who simply wanted a replica of Second Life just with improved graphics, evolved content creation etc they went with SANSAR the complete opposite of what their userbase wanted and something that was already around in a similar form.

You do realise that 'sculpties' do not exist in any other game in history?

Additionally Roblox's creation system is near identical to Second Life's in world prim creation technology just enhanced and better optimised (which LL should have done) and done in a specific building viewer which allows for plugins - something LL refuse to allow for their viewer. In other words they build the world with blocks. The fact that you don't even know that shows you have never researched Roblox.

As to how Roblox can look with no lag you also have no idea and the evidence says otherwise. Once again the difference is, that UNLIKE Second Life, Roblox has evolved to have in most cases better graphics than Second Life. These vids are of WIP's and prove you are wrong in your statements. There is a little LOD popping but that isnt in all of Roblox games as it is still WIP.

As you say, Roblox can never look anything like Second Life 🙄 or did you mean that SL can render past 64 draw distance without lagging unlike the above video example?

According to your logic, banks don't make money either.

I think Silicon Valley entrepreneurs and developers do exist who make products and then completely remove all the features that their user base became accustomed to and liked, thereby losing most of the customer base. But companies with a sole proprietor usually don't have that luxury, and big companies don't behave that way, so upon what use case or reality is your claim made, and why should LL as a small company follow this route?

Apparently this idea has taken ahold in your mind that developers/entrepreneurs get to to be -- and should be -- these cut-throat wolves who design fancy products that look good but that no one can afford or use. So the Lindens can make fabulous pretty things that only high-end computers can see and not worry about most of their paying users. Except, they aren't a big cut-throat company, they're a little Lab.

You have only to look at things like "the iPhone" or "the tablet" to understand that customers are shaken loose all the time and forced to buy new things and not only face obsolete, uncool things but old things that don't work at all. But even those massive, wealthy companies can't afford to be utterly callous and indifferent to their users. If their core base of pro-sumers howl, they end up catering to them. 

It's not clear to me why you have such animosity to sculpties, which are allowed, are still used, and still sold, but make up a very small minority of popular, sold products nowadays. There aren't any sculpties at the major merchant events at seraphimsl. There are some at smaller, more niche community events like Mieville, but even there, mesh is king. So your animosity is misplaced. There aren't any sculpty/makers users clinging to this form as you imagine. There is more use and sale of prims than sculpties because creating them is in the viewer. And that's a good thing. If sculpties "don't exist in any other game in history," why does that matter?

And yes, you made my point for me, Roblox has prims like SL has prims but look how far beyond prims SL has gone, and how Roblox will likely never do that, even if they skipped the step of sculpties. There are objective reasons for this, like whether user content made with outside programs like Blender and Photoshop can drive the world -- they don't for Roblox from what I can tell. If Roblox graphics seem better to you, it's because you have a taste for the things they offer -- which other people might find quite limited.

If someone tells me you can go into a Microsoft virtual world now and punch a punching back or press a button and watch something fall over, I can only laugh as we had that at the beginning, and are not limited to ONLY those things now.

In general, I don't understand where your ferocity is coming from. Linden Lab is not doing what you want? 

 

Edited by Prokofy Neva
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33 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Modern trends would be akin to things like making a full or partial 3D mobile client around 2013-15. Instead it is 2021 of which they are just starting on making a mobile client of which is only text based when competitors have full 3D ones.

Another example would be 10 years ago or so when they did their first tier reduction started to diversify their income stream by offering different premium tiers. Come 2021 Super Duper premium is still just a 'soon' thing that was first mentioned as been in the works in early 2019.

Allowing plugins to the default viewer rather than relying on many different TPV's is another modern trend.

Your point is moot. The fact remains if Linden Lab had focused on evolving second life (even if that meant breaking content like sculpties) they would have never needed to think as such. It is the fear they have of breaking content that led them down the path of that thinking and has led them down the path of simply never being able to evolve Second Life enough to garner new users.

Exactly, and from not listening to their users who simply wanted a replica of Second Life just with improved graphics, evolved content creation etc they went with SANSAR the complete opposite of what their userbase wanted and something that was already around in a similar form.

You do realise that 'sculpties' do not exist in any other game in history?

Additionally Roblox's creation system is near identical to Second Life's in world prim creation technology just enhanced and better optimised (which LL should have done) and done in a specific building viewer which allows for plugins - something LL refuse to allow for their viewer. In other words they build the world with blocks. The fact that you don't even know that shows you have never researched Roblox.

As to how Roblox can look with no lag you also have no idea and the evidence says otherwise. Once again the difference is, that UNLIKE Second Life, Roblox has evolved to have in most cases better graphics than Second Life. These vids are of WIP's and prove you are wrong in your statements. There is a little LOD popping but that isnt in all of Roblox games as it is still WIP.

As you say, Roblox can never look anything like Second Life 🙄 or did you mean that SL can render past 64 draw distance without lagging unlike the above video example?

According to your logic, banks don't make money either.

And here's why "the most high graphic roblox game" ever in history does not matter.

Because most of SL's user base are not war-gamers. Those who love war-games and hate SL graphics are in the wrong pew.

I think most people in SL do not want to play a war game where they can invite in their friends, and drive around and look at big rain drops plopping realistically on their windshield. They would rather:

o Make that scene THEMSELVES and live and move in it. 

o If they can't make things of prims, sculpties or mesh models or buy same and adapt 

o They would rather buy those ready-made trees, buildings and dragons -- every single one of those objects, some nearly identical, or even better -- are for sale on the MP or inworld for a few dollars, and then you MAKE THAT SCENE YOURSELF. 

o If you don't to fuss with scene-making, you move to Bellisseria where Moles have done this for you and you get to socialize, ride a horse, putter around in the background, fish, try on clothes, etc. etc. all without the stress and rote, rigid rules and routes of a war game.

It just doesn't impress us, those kinds of graphics or realism, because of the very high constraints put on user content and user freedom of action and movement.

 As you say, Roblox can never look anything like Second Life 🙄 or did you mean that SL can render past 64 draw distance without lagging unlike the above video example?

And...so what? It's meaningless.

Because I don't want to be a passive viewer entertained by a war game, even a very pretty war game that renders above 64 blah blah blah.

It can do this because THERE IS NO USER CONTENT

Game mods or illegal scripts in game worlds are not what I mean by user content.

Of course you can get a war game, entirely made and controlled by devs and mods, to look fabulous and seem better than SL. But who wants to live there? Most of us do not, because...we're not playing a war game or any kind of ritualistic, rote game where we can't leave the tracks and do other things, and manipulate the environment. Fortnite has in part adapted to that kind of demand from more casual and social users by making more of hangouts and such, but honestly, who needs to live in a war zone? Comparing the platform of SL to this or that war zone or racing car game only makes those war games and racing games look more limited than they even feel to those who do enjoy them.

 

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Those Roblox graphics are very nice. (If you want to see the car video, start it here and skip the annoying long-winded intro. It's better with sound off.)

You can make SL look that good, but not that responsive.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

And here's why "the most high graphic roblox game" ever in history does not matter.

Because most of SL's user base are not war-gamers. Those who love war-games and hate SL graphics are in the wrong pew.

I think most people in SL do not want to play a war game where they can invite in their friends, and drive around and look at big rain drops plopping realistically on their windshield. They would rather:

You have missed the point entirely. No one is saying the Sl userbase is all for war games, that doent however mean that the scripting language, inworld creation, terrain editing etc cant be updated. This issue is that LL are just to slow at it and therefore those things that are necessary to bring in new users are not there so retention always is hindered.

You think Like LL in believing that they need to accommodate for the existing userbase. I disagree with that avenue as I believe a company should be able to not only provide for the existing userbase but also evolve the program to provide for newer users and newer systems.

You like others see Roblox and see 'games' yet fail to realise that they can exist within second life side by side with the social, barbie doll and barbie dream house that exists now. Nothing would change for existing users other than better systems and newer users to grow the userbase.

Forget about the game aspect and look beyond that.

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All of your point dots...

All of those can be done on Roblox as well. Once again Roblox call them experiences for a reason, they don't have to be a car game or a FPS. Even if that was the case there is no reason why Second Life could have adapted the same creation tools to second life, upgraded the engine etc Like Roblox did. Nothing would change and that seems to be what you dont understand.

SL would be better but the existing usability of second life would remain.

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It just doesn't impress us, those kinds of graphics or realism, because of the very high constraints put on user content and user freedom of action and movement.

There is no constraints in Roblox on user content or user freedom. But how does graphics and realism have any impact on those anyway. You as I have mentioned are focused on the fact that Roblox offers games of which many are RP games where the person made the scene and people RP in it with text. Exactly how people RP in Second life.

There is literally no difference between Roblox and SL other than Roblox has been updated and moved with the times and SL hasn't and having closed of experiences like sansar. 

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Of course you can get a war game, entirely made and controlled by devs and mods, to look fabulous and seem better than SL. But who wants to live there? Most of us do not, because...we're not playing a war game or any kind of ritualistic, rote game where we can't leave the tracks and do other things, and manipulate the environment. Fortnite has in part adapted to that kind of demand from more casual and social users by making more of hangouts and such, but honestly, who needs to live in a war zone? Comparing the platform of SL to this or that war zone or racing car game only makes those war games and racing games look more limited than they even feel to those who do enjoy them.

You really cant get over the fact that Roblox has games and SL doesn't. You just cant see what I and others are trying to say in this thread. You also don't understand that Roblox is created by exactly the same people that populate Second Life. They are not top quality game dev's they are average users just like you that create those experiences.

44 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It's not clear to me why you have such animosity to sculpties, which are allowed, are still used, and still sold, but make up a very small minority of popular, sold products nowadays. 

Because they are an unoptimized resource hog that are the main reason why people lag.

44 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

And yes, you made my point for me, Roblox has prims like SL has prims but look how far beyond prims SL has gone, and how Roblox will likely never do that, even if they skipped the step of sculpties. There are objective reasons for this, like whether user content made with outside programs like Blender and Photoshop can drive the world -- they don't for Roblox from what I can tell. 

Look harder. You can import mesh into Roblox just like Second Life from blender, maya, max etc as well as create in them in their creation viewer. In other words SL and Roblox's creation system is the same just like I have already said.

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1 minute ago, Drayke Newall said:

You have missed the point entirely. No one is saying the Sl userbase is all for war games, that doent however mean that the scripting language, inworld creation, terrain editing etc cant be updated. This issue is that LL are just to slow at it and therefore those things that are necessary to bring in new users are not there so retention always is hindered.

You think Like LL in believing that they need to accommodate for the existing userbase. I disagree with that avenue as I believe a company should be able to not only provide for the existing userbase but also evolve the program to provide for newer users and newer systems.

You like others see Roblox and see 'games' yet fail to realise that they can exist within second life side by side with the social, barbie doll and barbie dream house that exists now. Nothing would change for existing users other than better systems and newer users to grow the userbase.

Forget about the game aspect and look beyond that.

All of those can be done on Roblox as well. Once again Roblox call them experiences for a reason, they don't have to be a car game or a FPS. Even if that was the case there is no reason why Second Life could have adapted the same creation tools to second life, upgraded the engine etc Like Roblox did. Nothing would change and that seems to be what you dont understand.

SL would be better but the existing usability of second life would remain.

There is no constraints in Roblox on user content or user freedom. But how does graphics and realism have any impact on those anyway. You as I have mentioned are focused on the fact that Roblox offers games of which many are RP games where the person made the scene and people RP in it with text. Exactly how people RP in Second life.

There is literally no difference between Roblox and SL other than Roblox has been updated and moved with the times and SL hasn't and having closed of experiences like sansar. 

You really cant get over the fact that Roblox has games and SL doesn't. You just cant see what I and others are trying to say in this thread. You also don't understand that Roblox is created by exactly the same people that populate Second Life. They are not top quality game dev's they are average users just like you that create those games.

 

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Again, you provide no information so we can understand why all this is of concern to you.

If you are a developer and entrepreneur yourself, you don't have to stay here, you can go make Roblox games or all the other sorts of things out there that you are fascinated with, or fund others to do so. If all those platforms have all the glorious things you say, go there, and if no one joins you from this Shadow Land of Darkness that is SL to you, well, all the more business for you that understand the fine things of life, eh?

But it sounds like you don't have that capacity, so instead, you think that by coming and browbeating users in the forums, and ranting and raving at them, you can somehow goad and shame them into doing...what exactly? Cleaning out the sculpties from their inventory? 

It seems like you do this because you can't get at your real target, the Lindens. But the Lindens don't have the capacity to read all the posts on the forums or care about them.

So there, you could try going to their more technical office hours, or some other events where they appear, and ask questions, or try to IM them directly, or get into RL major media with oped pieces, or in the specialized tech press, and try to influence them. These routes can sometimes influence them, but not in any major way because they are a private company with investors they found, which apparently don't include you, and they do what they want. But if you think that somehow citing lots of shame-inducing examples or haranguing people in the forums works as a path to influence the Lindens, I'd have to say I don't think that's so effective, but maybe you will get it to work if you build up your fan base.

It really does matter if all these things are games because games are things you usually cannot reach in and change yourself -- and that is everything. Everything. Roblox and their fans can call them cream cheese if they want, it's meaningless to people who see at once that if you don't like war games, and don't like racing around in vehicles, which are mainly a draw for young men of a certain demographic, then it just doesn't matter to you how pretty it is, how much FPS it has, etc. Culture matters. Pretty graphics and speed TO DO WHAT. If that "TO DO WHAT" had an answer like "socialize" or "build" or "have sex" in ROBLOX, then all of SL would have stampeded out of there by now. Yet they didn't. Why do you think that is? Could it be it does not have those freedoms or that capacity in fact?

You fail to see that when you have user content, you can't have these fast speeds of movement and high graphic functionality because the content varies, is not predictable, is amateurishly made, etc. but that's freedom, that's a good thing. When you have user content and user activity that is adult, you have a different profile and different liability that maybe ROBLOX does not want to take on, and that's fine.

User content. In massive amounts. Far greater than the platform provider's content. This is a very, very basic fact of virtual life that you don't seem prepared to admit or reason with. But that's the story. The story has not changed in the 20 years I have observed it from The Sims Online to Second Life. There is no other world or thing with this much USER CONTENT and with this much variety of interactions with it.

These amateur videos seem to show that some people have worked up Roblox to do X or Y, but the video maker himself did not trust it and didn't want to spend 500 Robloxbux or whatever they were to find out. So -- meh. No sale.

The people you show here are not "exactly the same people that populate Second Life". They are a *type* that does populate SL among vehicle and car makers and game makers and armour sellers, but that's a small minority. Most people in SL do not want war games; they don't even want fast cars; they don't need armour unless a giant chest is considered a form of armour.

Again, it seems to me your game plan here is not to invest or develop yourself in those other places that are better, but to harangue people here until they do it for you with their investments and their skills. The world does not work that way.

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43 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Again, you provide no information so we can understand why all this is of concern to you.

But it sounds like you don't have that capacity, so instead, you think that by coming and browbeating users in the forums, and ranting and raving at them, you can somehow goad and shame them into doing...what exactly? Cleaning out the sculpties from their inventory? 

Seriously get over yourself. It is a concern for me as I am posting about what the topic is about. In other words roblox has done better at user content creation than second life. Hence, as far as the metaverse goes for SL to become relevant again they need to compete.

The topic is FUTURE OF THE METAVERSE AND ALL THAT. Meaning as per the OP we are discussing here exactly that including how SECOND LIFE CAN BECOME THE FUTURE AND WHAT ITS SHORTFALLS ARE and how SL is comparing.

I am simply posting on topic and saying LL are slow at updating to current standards compared to other like virtual worlds. It is you that has a bee in your bonnet about me saying as such.

Quote

You fail to see that when you have user content, you can't have these fast speeds of movement and high graphic functionality because the content varies, is not predictable, is amateurishly made, etc. but that's freedom, that's a good thing.

WHAT? Do you not even understand that Roblox IS ALL USER CREATED CONTENT. Just like second life is. News flash - they upload mesh just like second life and sell it so others can use that in the environments or they create mesh in a system in world just like second life. Yet, because they have done it right they don't have the issues SL have as well as the fact that the whole experience is downloaded first like sansar is. That's why I also mentioned before that LL need to update SL's cache.

If you are going to argue on things at least know what you are talking about.

Do you also not know that Second Life has car racing, FPS, Sword fighting, etc in it. All games that their creators are desperately wanting to be able to play to some degree of decency without bullets missing, sword fights looking like a circus, etc all because LL refuse to update the scripting engine and use a better updated physics engine.

You talk about 'freedom' yet refuse to allow those freedoms to exist when it is something you don't agree should be in Second Life. That is the problem that has made Second Life linger well behind the VW crowd. People like you of the existing userbase that are happy with how things are and spout the freedoms of Second Life, but don't understand that that freedom offered is for those wanting something more than a glorified dress up and chat system as well. The same crowd that LL should be listening to as well.

As to the claim the video maker didn't want to buy it, it was because it was still a work in progress. LMAO

Whilst I am happy to debate, you are point blank misreading and ignoring what I have said so you can go off on your tangent of 'but SL isnt a game' or 'sl doesnt have games in it like roblox' (which it does).  I'm done talking to you about it as you clearly just repeat the same nonsense over and over not reading what I have said. Have fun talking with yourself.

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Hmmm, the title of the topic is "Future of the metaverse, and all that".  That seems more like a conceptual topic or at least one that presents such a vision for one.  Most of what I see here is arguing about whether people want games or not.

What would humanity actually want from "The Metaverse" ?  It seems to me that humanity would want all of that and more.  It needs to be at humanity scale and it has to be so captivating for all the myriad of different interests that everyone wants to be there even though it is for different reasons.  Like real life really but so much more so.  It needs to be for people who cannot do things in RL that others can, for people who want to do things in RL that nobody can and for all to express themselves in the way they want.  It should be a liberating experience.  I think that should be the dream but I don't see anyone building that.  SL seems to have been the only attempt that moved the marker forward at all and as incredible as I find SL, it didn't move the marker very far.  It needs to go so much further.

However, humanity also wants FaceBook, so go figure.

And yes, I read Snow Crash in my youth but please don't hold it against me.

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1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Hmmm, the title of the topic is "Future of the metaverse, and all that".  That seems more like a conceptual topic or at least one that presents such a vision for one.  Most of what I see here is arguing about whether people want games or not.

Im certainly not arguing that Prokofy seems to be arguing about that and derailing the thread. Most people including me are just saying that LL need to step up their game to actually start moving to the metaverse and not being slow about it and doing as such by providing examples of what other companies are doing to achieve the metaverse.

1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

What would humanity actually want from "The Metaverse" ?  

I think these days most companies aiming for a Metaverse want it to basically be like ready player one though whether that includes VR depends on the company you talk to.

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2 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Seriously get over yourself. It is a concern for me as I am posting about what the topic is about. In other words roblox has done better at user content creation than second life. Hence, as far as the metaverse goes for SL to become relevant again they need to compete.

The topic is FUTURE OF THE METAVERSE AND ALL THAT. Meaning as per the OP we are discussing here exactly that including how SECOND LIFE CAN BECOME THE FUTURE AND WHAT ITS SHORTFALLS ARE and how SL is comparing.

I am simply posting on topic and saying LL are slow at updating to current standards compared to other like virtual worlds. It is you that has a bee in your bonnet about me saying as such.

WHAT? Do you not even understand that Roblox IS ALL USER CREATED CONTENT. Just like second life is. News flash - they upload mesh just like second life and sell it so others can use that in the environments or they create mesh in a system in world just like second life. Yet, because they have done it right they don't have the issues SL have as well as the fact that the whole experience is downloaded first like sansar is. That's why I also mentioned before that LL need to update SL's cache.

If you are going to argue on things at least know what you are talking about.

Do you also not know that Second Life has car racing, FPS, Sword fighting, etc in it. All games that their creators are desperately wanting to be able to play to some degree of decency without bullets missing, sword fights looking like a circus, etc all because LL refuse to update the scripting engine and use a better updated physics engine.

You talk about 'freedom' yet refuse to allow those freedoms to exist when it is something you don't agree should be in Second Life. That is the problem that has made Second Life linger well behind the VW crowd. People like you of the existing userbase that are happy with how things are and spout the freedoms of Second Life, but don't understand that that freedom offered is for those wanting something more than a glorified dress up and chat system as well. The same crowd that LL should be listening to as well.

As to the claim the video maker didn't want to buy it, it was because it was still a work in progress. LMAO

Whilst I am happy to debate, you are point blank misreading and ignoring what I have said so you can go off on your tangent of 'but SL isnt a game' or 'sl doesnt have games in it like roblox' (which it does).  I'm done talking to you about it as you clearly just repeat the same nonsense over and over not reading what I have said. Have fun talking with yourself.

No man can jump over his own knees so I won't be "getting over myself" and it's not necessary.

To claim that Roblox has "better content in SL" seems absurd to me. Let's take just "last four things purchased inworld" --  a) a tree house by Black Sand; b) an eternal life chalice from ChicChicca which is animated and delivers; c) a chibit Japanese style seating with animations for tinies by FlyingArts; d) some sort of sculpture that is a comment on the pandemic and resistance by Rebirth. I mean, what these things represent isn't merely their graphics, the skills of each individual author which are considerable, but their social setting -- I can rent out the house to other people; I can put the chalice in some hangout build or fantasy quest; I can put the seating also in a rental or hangout; d) I have a COVID prayer area I can put the sculpture in -- where real people come with real concerns and interact, in each one of these cases, or just have fun. There's a society.

I don't see that in what you're showing here. What I see is that some kids have put some fancy skins on some building blocks such as we have in SL and have made games -- which are all constrained war games or racing games.

It might well be as you say, that ROBLOX has user content AND a community and interaction and there is total freedom to build anything you want and have the users have not just content sold on a web site outside the game, but in that game world as well. But it doesn't seem to be the case. So it's not compelling. I don't want to be in a wargame or a racing game in a thing that is a skin over blocks.

Yeah, I've been in SL 17 years, and yeah, I know it has racing, sword-fighting and much more and I even have some of these things on my properties, hello, not to mention my tenants who have even more of it. That's how I'm in a position to say that I'm not seeing the superiority of Roblox or how they have done it better.

Again, your notion of user content is very constrained, as you mean merely the ability to upload your mods or create a game -- which are rather constrained activities -- on a platform about war games and racing games.

SL is far, far more robust with a huge cornucopia of activities and movements and ideas. You can have a book club or a sex club or a sailing club -- it's not that people passive are entertained by war motions or racing motions as they drive through scenes, they interact. It's a far more complex notion of what user content is, because it involves the invisible or intangible threads about how that content is used, and in what context.

To imagine that because there are flashier graphics in a world where ALL YOU CAN DO is make a wargame or racing game and hope other people who are passive viewers can watch it is not much of a world.

Wikipedia isn't always accurate or relevant but this description of Roblox seems to cover exactly my points -- limitation. Only certain paid accounts can sell content. In SL, anyone can, premium or no. Etc. Etc. Then you have the Nazi griefing groups which only external media coverage put a dent in, even though this company has a massive chat filtration system and doesn't allow sex, etc.

If Roblox is this superior thing you say, I'm puzzled why you just don't go there and develop, why you even bother with SL. It just makes no sense if you think SL is this backward, scrappy little dying place. Why then save it? Go to Roblox. Oh, except Roblox is not as free and you might not get as many customers there? 

It seems you can't take arguments against your various firmly-held theses of superiority, but I think it's because you can't even agree on common terms.

This statement makes no sense whatsoever, and is merely posited on your distorted understanding of the critique I and others make

You talk about 'freedom' yet refuse to allow those freedoms to exist when it is something you don't agree should be in Second Life. That is the problem that has made Second Life linger well behind the VW crowd. People like you of the existing userbase that are happy with how things are and spout the freedoms of Second Life, but don't understand that that freedom offered is for those wanting something more than a glorified dress up and chat system as well. The same crowd that LL should be listening to as well.

This is a common social media fallacy and device in arguments to claim that if someone doesn't agree on your interpretation, why, they must be for suppressing it. Of course nothing I've said can be construed in this way -- unless you're deploying this fallacy.

You seem to think I advocate "not allowing car racing, sword fighting, etc." in SL. But that's absurd. It exists! People do this in my rentals and all over the Mainland! It's just not their main activity, nor the main activity of most people. It's not about "suppressing it" -- you don't need to suppress it. Most people don't want to play war games, period. Most people aren't young boys or young men with that interest. The demographics of SL is different (female, middle-aged) but even across the whole Internet, most young and old men I know prefer social media or more complicated games of strategy. My son played World of Warcraft and other wargames when he was 12 but actually when he was 13, he came on the Teen Grid. Eventually he went to various schools, started his own media business and has no interest in any kind of games online now that he's 28, it's too boring for him when he has real things to do. Occasionally he will help me with my SL rentals but it's too slow and dull for him and needlessly complicated to onboard his wife. Etc. That's the experience of many, many people, and yet you are trying to translate this into some "old guard" that is "stopping progress".

What, playing "Adopt Me!" on Roblox is more fun than the elaborate family and birthing and adoption RP in SL? Really?

All those racing cards and whatnot is more fun than say the Bellisseria Parade and all kinds of motorcycle clubs in SL? Really?

Those people will explain to you the limitations of a world where the mods filter chat and all the other things described. 

Well, keep talking, and eventually your agenda will become clear.

Edited by Prokofy Neva
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2 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Hmmm, the title of the topic is "Future of the metaverse, and all that".  That seems more like a conceptual topic or at least one that presents such a vision for one.  Most of what I see here is arguing about whether people want games or not.

What would humanity actually want from "The Metaverse" ?  It seems to me that humanity would want all of that and more.  It needs to be at humanity scale and it has to be so captivating for all the myriad of different interests that everyone wants to be there even though it is for different reasons.  Like real life really but so much more so.  It needs to be for people who cannot do things in RL that others can, for people who want to do things in RL that nobody can and for all to express themselves in the way they want.  It should be a liberating experience.  I think that should be the dream but I don't see anyone building that.  SL seems to have been the only attempt that moved the marker forward at all and as incredible as I find SL, it didn't move the marker very far.  It needs to go so much further.

However, humanity also wants FaceBook, so go figure.

And yes, I read Snow Crash in my youth but please don't hold it against me.

I think the first thing to realize about the Metaverse, Gabriele, or anyone who wants to talk about the overarching themes and not just "how can SL become more like my favourite war game with better graphics" or "how can I take over the platform with my One Big Idea for how the engineering should change", it's clear the Metaverse already exists and no one company can create it and some did already.

It's like the Whole Earth Catalogue, created by the pioneers of the Internet, whose slogan was "You can't put it together; it is together."

So whether you are now refreshing a hospital or pharmacy page and trying to get a vaccine appointment -- because telephones and snail mail are now obsolete and don't work -- or whether you are refreshing secondlife.com to get a stilt house, you are in the Metaverse, Madge, you're soaking in it.

So it is thinner or thicker or better looking or worse governed here or there, but it then becomes about whether you have companies making their own worlds and seeing who shows up, so that people flock to this or that movie theater or circus where it is "better", or whether any kind of governing body begins to be formed or inserts itself to make standards. There was a group of Lindens and various extreme "cosmic engineer" sorts "drawing up standards" like the humming engineers of IEEE, and I used to take part sometimes and found it appalling -- they were dead set against copyright and were happy to kill it and today would never grasp that if you demand secure comms with uncrackable code, why, that could be used to protect IP as well. Hello. So those people failed anyway for other reasons, but there's always a standards committee that begins trying to herd people together for its own agenda or corporate interest. There are people who have made wearisome "Bills of Rights" for the Metaverse that leave out some of the chief rights that are undone by the TOS anyway, which are "unconscionable" contracts in the words of one judge examining an SL-related case. There are people who have lobbied to have existing international law recognized online fully, but then there's always Iran, at one end, or the US, at the other, in terms of repression or liberalism to fail to agree on common terms. That you got 122 countries or whatever it was to agree on a plan to combat racism the other day at the UN was extraordinary because there are concerted spoilers, and the US is often among them.

In a forums like this one, people tend to think only of "engineering" and "design" and "code" and think merely "code is law" and you just put in a chat filtration system, or you make it impossible to lay a prim on public land, and you don't need police, the code did it for you. The existence of at least 3 police RP groups in Bellisseria AND an elaborate and detailed official covenant let you know that the desire to restrict and fight dissidence is always big everywhere, and presented under the guise of "protection" or "the community" or "what's best for all".

So the governance piece of the Metaverse is really important, so that it doesn't become an incubator for crime, the way 4chan, who thrived in SL and its hell spawn from 8chan have gone on to kill real people in the real world.

If you think the Metaverse is merely "the speedy upload" and "the high FPS" you're thinking like Columbus and his backers, why, let's go to some fresh new speedy place and do everything we want -- regardless if some other people are already there.

The Metaverse is not magic, it's not a unicorn realm, it's a created, human artifact and therefore flawed and fallable, and inserting artificial intelligence based on flawed algorithms is not the solution. It is fascinating to me that the Russian physicist and Nobel Peace Prize winner Andrei Sakharov foresaw first the invention of the Internet, where people would link computing machines and telephones and TVs, and foresaw social media, that would adversely affect people, and foresaw the spread of myths deliberately made by tyrants and disinformation and fake news infecting many people over this futuristic device. 

There are many, many books, conferences, articles on the topic of "Wither the Metaverse"; make a Google news with the term "virtual worlds" etc and you will get a tsunami of stuff, often where LL is mentioned as a leader. There have been at least 20 years of these conferences and web sites and news and magazine articles that I personally have been following with some of it well funded in universities and government offices in various countries of the world. And the key themes are not just "the look" in terms of graphics or design or engine, but identity as was mentioned by the OP but this has to be taken further, where there is the flexibility of pseudonomity but also the accountability of RL identity tied to it, but not necessarily displayed. And with all the hacks and identity thefts of more mundane companies involved in online shopping or banking, it's hard to think of any Metaverse that can be viable for 24/7 human life until the basic problem of hacking and crime is defined and adjudicated. 

Edited by Prokofy Neva
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1 minute ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

Heraclitus would have given his right arm to have that n attributed to him.

Did Heraclitus lose his right arm in a knee-jumping contest? I missed that. 

I know Gurdjieff would often say this but it didn't come from him like a lot of things didn't come from him.

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Thanks to this topic I am actually interested in Roblox :D

From my perspective both platforms aims same thing.. they provide tools and platform you make your own product and they take commission for their service. If your product enjoyable it brings more player everyone wins..

I can't see any difference other than Roblox targeting younger audience while SL targeting (I am not sure but most people I meet in SL around 30+ age, perhaps I am wrong and I didn't meet enough people) middle age and elderly audience.

Edited by RunawayBunny
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