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Second Life can be WAY bigger than it is now with little to no risk, it's almost insane how conservatively SL's potential is being harnessed, I'm sure a lot of the Lindens believe that as well, they're really smart people, the right people just need to see and believe that as well 

We are losing momentum with each passing day by sticking on mostly preservative direction, we can't lose more before SL's few edges got overshadowed by competitors slowly creeping in

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Being surrounded by Chipmunk-sounding tiny furries is not my idea of fun. I get that it's your entertainment, but it's rather insulting to say that having no desire to be surrounded by Chipmunk-soundi

Or, where a venture capitalist thinks SL-like systems are going. The Metaverse: What It Is, Where to Find it, Who Will Build It, and Fortnite  Is Fortnite the next Metaverse? The Most Imp

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High expectations with little infrastructure.

Firstly I am sorry if I sound like negative talker..

You don't have to be a programmer figure out SL infrastructure constantly collapsing and requiring assistance

Examples: Marketplace often offline, L$ payment infrastructure offline average 1 times in a month, login server constantly struggling and rejecting login.

Before setting their eyes on horizon they need to fix important (most important one marketplace and L$ payment failures) infrastructure,  expanding with this infrastructure most likely result with a disaster IMO.

 

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We have the necessary infrastructure. We are still, as of yet, the biggest virtual world in the world, we have the momentum, we have the content, and we have the creators and userbase necessary to keep going. Those are the things we need more than better tech or infrastructure, those can come if we make more

The main thing that prevents Second Life's growth is brand perception. Now don't get me wrong, I love Second Life, the Lindens with how passionate and genuine they are and I'm sure most of us here do, so don't take this as me saying SL or LL aren't good enough, SL is still the biggest virtual world thanks to them after all

But there's just very little organic hype or excitement around Second Life, because we do very, VERY little in term of visionary projection and narrative control. These things can be done without veering off the current rather preservative directive of SL. We can do better

There are lateral vectors of approach for growth that can possibly be force multipliers in regard to growth instead of the known linear paths

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for SL it would already make the name better in the world when the Adult activities and promotion would be at a actual adult forum, and not meat market in the general part.
Everyone in the world (rl) sees this sh*t... without being a member.
 

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10 hours ago, animats said:

The Make Money Fast crowd is taking over the virtual world industry.

You mean Launder Money Fast Invest Money in less Regulated "Markets" Fast.

10 hours ago, animats said:

I just hope that the new owners of Linden Lab don't try to go in this direction. It won't end well.

They hopped on the VR hype train and got burned bad. It isn't out of the question the new owners might steer the slow sinking ship into a reef if it means they might make a dime in the process.

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13 hours ago, animats said:

There's a large amount of "metaverse" activity right now, and most of it involves insanely overpriced "land" in virtual worlds with a "blockchain". Atari has started a casino in Decentraland. MegaCryptoPolis has opened a 3D world where land can cost as much as US$181,000 per parcel, and you must have a crypto wallet to visit. Storefronts start at US$91,600.

The Make Money Fast crowd is taking over the virtual world industry. The worlds they are creating are crappy. Few people actually go there; they just trade tokens. This is discouraging.

I just hope that the new owners of Linden Lab don't try to go in this direction. It won't end well.

With the investor class excitement around digital art and NFTs you can bet that's exactly what the current owners have in mind. Even King Philip was openly pondering on Twitter if NTF's would be worth the environmental impact.

It's all about creating that value, even if that value is a short term bubble.

💎👏🚀🌙

 

10 hours ago, RunawayBunny said:

You don't have to be a programmer figure out SL infrastructure constantly collapsing .... before setting their eyes on horizon they need to fix important.....

The Castle GIFs - Get the best GIF on GIPHY

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3 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

You mean Launder Money Fast Invest Money in less Regulated "Markets" Fast.

Right. The main feature of "non-fungible tokens", like Upland's "deeds", is that they are neither a security nor a commodity. So they are not regulated by the Securities and Exchange Commission or the Commodity Futures Trading Commission. Their legal status, so far, is that of a collectable, like Beanie Babies. That's why they are replacing Initial Coin Offerings as the latest Make Money Fast scheme. The SEC pretty much shot down the Initial Coin Offering With Nothing Backing It Up market, simply by sending out letters along the line of "please tell us why you didn't register your new public security offering with us". Suddenly most of the new ICOs decided to shut down.

The NFT market may implode before it gets going. There was a lot of press about Beeple getting US$69 million for a collection of rather bad art. Then it turned out there was some connection between buyer and seller, and it now seems unlikely that $67 million really changed hands.

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9 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:

The main thing that prevents Second Life's growth is brand perception. Now don't get me wrong, I love Second Life, the Lindens with how passionate and genuine they are and I'm sure most of us here do, so don't take this as me saying SL or LL aren't good enough, SL is still the biggest virtual world thanks to them after all

It's not. Even back in the early days when we had a massive evangelizing base and growth so hard the servers couldn't keep up .. SL was about the same things, and the revolving door just spun faster. The sign up rate for SL has always been high, retention has always been incredibly low.

The problem is accessibility.

Why am I here. What do I do now ?

SL requires people that are prepared to invest time, effort, money and find there own fun. Hand holding mentors, video guides, tutorials, blogs ... are all additional content that has to be consumed with no payoff in sight.

Getting established and emotionally invested takes time. Time that could be spent getting invested in anything else with more immediate reward (and less "brand stigma". there is plenty of weird sex in world of warcraft, no one is going to blink if you put that on your resume).

SL isn't about virtual sex, it's just the people looking for that as an end goal have it easiest. Hence the reputation.

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48 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

SL requires people that are prepared to invest time, effort, money and find there own fun. Hand holding mentors, video guides, tutorials, blogs ... are all additional content that has to be consumed with no payoff in sight.

I know. I've written about that in onboarding topics.

A few days ago I was at Firestorm Help Island, which had no staff at the time. Someone was wandering around looking lost. I talked to them for five minutes, and just told them a few basics - everything is made by the users, the world has no built-in goal but there are places within it that do, you can get better clothing cheaply and even better stuff if you pay, the world is run by land owners who set the rules for their own land, and talk to people for a while before asking them to friend you. Less confused, he went off to do some things off the help island.

It doesn't take that much to get new users started.

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I think the major drawback at present with SL is having the tech to deliver the experience in an accessible and user friendly way. That's not just the capabilities of the platform itself, but the resources available to users - speed of computer, broadband speeds, access via mobile devices.

As a creative, I love the platform and the potential of being able to create/co-create a virtual 3D world composed of user-driven content, rather than defined by a gaming company. 

However, my own access is restricted at present by the speed of my computer and my operating system, as well as broadband speeds, so I can currently only visit locations with no or very few other users on the sim, otherwise my avatar gets quickly paralysed by lag issues.

In addition to needing a fast enough computer and broadband, there's also now a barrier to the general public understanding how to use it - even the basics of creating/modifying your avatar and buying clothing and accessories, with all the compatability issue with different brands of mesh avatars.

But in terms of where this can go in the future, I'm very excited about the possibilities of Sl evolving into a fully immersive and easily accessible experience, via a headset, where there's also this facility for user generated content, and also for trading in an a digital currency and an in world eco-system which we already have with the Linden dollars.

The challenge seems to be whether Linden Labs is going to be able to develop the necessary tecnhology and resources to make this possible, and/or partner with a company or platform that can provide this...

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3 hours ago, Merlina21 said:

However, my own access is restricted at present by the speed of my computer and my operating system, as well as broadband speeds, so I can currently only visit locations with no or very few other users on the sim, otherwise my avatar gets quickly paralysed by lag issues.

It's far worse than you can possibly imagine.

Even with the fastest computer, bestest graphics and all the bandwidth you can beg/bed/borrow/steal -SL will still run like <suitable expletive here>.

Just had a conversation with a 3D artist laboring under the impression that as long as his models are under the 64k Vert limit and the Li is low, then that's fine, totally fine. We're all fine here, how're you?

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3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's far worse than you can possibly imagine.

Even with the fastest computer, bestest graphics and all the bandwidth you can beg/bed/borrow/steal -SL will still run like <suitable expletive here>.

Just had a conversation with a 3D artist laboring under the impression that as long as his models are under the 64k Vert limit and the Li is low, then that's fine, totally fine. We're all fine here, how're you?

Actually feeling quite happy right now with my mesh hair that I've just added - but shopping and putting on new outfits and taking pictures is about the limit of my activity, though I do plan to upgrade my computer to at least be able to interact again in world, like I could when I first joined...

What does '6k Vert limit' mean and "Li'?  Learning some of the tech jargon can also be a challenge!

 

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8 minutes ago, Merlina21 said:

What does '6k Vert limit' mean and "Li'?  Learning some of the tech jargon can also be a challenge!

64k (65536) vertices is the maximum allowed complexity for a single mesh object (a single triangle has 3 verts).

Li or land impact is how LL measure how much stuff you can rez on any given amount of land.

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11 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

64k (65536) vertices is the maximum allowed complexity for a single mesh object (a single triangle has 3 verts).

Li or land impact is how LL measure how much stuff you can rez on any given amount of land.

thanks - I understand about 'land impact' just didn't know the abbreviation, and just about understand vertices, which I think I once learned about in maths many moons ago.... I understand that this affects lag - as my computer/viewer starts to struggle even if there are a lot of objects on the sim. If there are a lot of objects I have to switch back from using Firestorm to Singularity which no longer rez's inventory items properly, so my Avatar ends up in a white top and leggings....

Still - regarding how technology can evolve - dug out my previous pics taken in world and saw what my avatar used to look like when I first joined....things have definitely improved since then!

I can also remember the days before digital and taking video and pics on a phone, or even with a camcorder when the only way to record video was by hiring some very expensive and complex equipment both to film and create some of the effects, and 3D animation was clay modelling and stop frame, or doing lots and lots of drawings. 

So considering how the technology has evolved since then,  beyond what people back in the day could have imagined, who knows where it might go in the future....

early pic with cloak.jpg

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5 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It's not. Even back in the early days when we had a massive evangelizing base and growth so hard the servers couldn't keep up .. SL was about the same things, and the revolving door just spun faster. The sign up rate for SL has always been high, retention has always been incredibly low.

The problem is accessibility.

Why am I here. What do I do now ?

SL requires people that are prepared to invest time, effort, money and find there own fun. Hand holding mentors, video guides, tutorials, blogs ... are all additional content that has to be consumed with no payoff in sight.

Getting established and emotionally invested takes time. Time that could be spent getting invested in anything else with more immediate reward (and less "brand stigma". there is plenty of weird sex in world of warcraft, no one is going to blink if you put that on your resume).

SL isn't about virtual sex, it's just the people looking for that as an end goal have it easiest. Hence the reputation.

Having better accessibility will certainly help, I'm totally for that, but even then people still won't get excited about SL more than they are now. When something excites people accessibility becomes less of an issue or barrier for adoption.

Yes, we had a massive evangelizing base but what they were selling to people was still "this" image of SL, it's a great and beautiful thing but it can be better. We can make it so when people see what SL is all about, they will not only want to be a part of SL, but feel the urge, the need to, as if they are missing out on something great if they don't

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Edit: Realized this is the thing someone on this thread posted a few days ago, but oh well

Saw this on Linkedin earlier

image.png.477637d1397491acb0f5e4bb1388d18f.png

CNBC wrote about Roblox and how it's "the" metaverse, it's probably silly for us but SL need a drastic move to take back the narrative

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5 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:

SL need a drastic move to take back the narrative

Unfortunately this just will never happen. There are many options LL could take to make SL the forefront of the metaverse but the investment is now just too much for them especially given the dated engine and lack of updates. This would be the same even if VR wasn't even looked at. They have been/are just to slow at updating and keeping up with modern trends and still hasn't provided anything different since it started.

Roblox is valued and touted as such not because it is popular with a certain demographic, but because the system they use of a virtual world where you can create an experience (game) within the virtual world and socialise as well is what people want (basically what LL wanted sansar to be). The principle that they have of a social area with games is what SL could have evolved into but done better to include everything most people want a cross between Roblox and Second Life. A Ready Player One environment. This is why Roblox advertise as such and are labelled the metaverse because compared to ready player one (where the metaverse is now compared to) Roblox is far more that than SL has ever been.

Roblox have consistently also been up to trend on all things as well as improved their engine accordingly. SL has never done any of this. SL has just had things added to it that other VW's like Roblox had from day one or just updated systems that were forgotten about.

Now yes, I know Roblox is different, however that doesn't mean we cant compare the differences in the uptake of modern tech etc between the two to see just how SLOW Linden Lab are. Just look at the time line below compared to SL and see how Linden Lab have simply just failed at everything uptake wise.

Roblox: Released 2006    Second Life: Released 2003 (Second Life was at the forefront of 3D Virtual Worlds/metaverse)
Roblox: IOS version 2012    Second Life: Still waiting (9 year difference)
Roblox: Android Version 2014     Second Life: Still waiting (7 year difference)
Roblox: Smooth terrain (block look to smooth graphics) 2015    Second Life: Never updated terrain tools or fidelity
Roblox: Xbox version 2015    Second Life: Never released (likely never)
Roblox: VR support 2016    Second Life: Looked into but shelved
Roblox: 10 million user created in world games (experiences) created 2016     Second Life: region equivalent - 26095 in 2021
Roblox: Standalone PC version (previously web based only) 2016    Second Life: irrelevant
Roblox: massive server updates 2017    Second Life: 2020 (4 year difference)
Roblox: Party Place in response to COVID activated 2020    Second Life: No COVID incentive offered

Looking at the above SL started at the forefront of the metaverse. It was the ONLY metaverse in 2003. After its hype years of 2006-2007 it just started to go down from there just not keeping with the times.

Sadly Second Life reminds me of Kodak. A company that led the world in photography from the 1920's. They created the digital camera (in 1970's), but focused on their current offering of film camera's because the board never saw the need to update to the more modern aspects and so consequently by the time they began to focus more on their own version to rival the likes of Sony it was too little to late. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Unfortunately this just will never happen. There are many options LL could take to make SL the forefront of the metaverse but the investment is now just too much for them especially given the dated engine and lack of updates. This would be the same even if VR wasn't even looked at. They have been/are just to slow at updating and keeping up with modern trends and still hasn't provided anything different since it started.

Roblox is valued and touted as such not because it is popular with a certain demographic, but because the system they use of a virtual world where you can create an experience (game) within the virtual world and socialise as well is what people want (basically what LL wanted sansar to be). The principle that they have of a social area with games is what SL could have evolved into but done better to include everything most people want a cross between Roblox and Second Life. A Ready Player One environment. This is why Roblox advertise as such and are labelled the metaverse because compared to ready player one (where the metaverse is now compared to) Roblox is far more that than SL has ever been.

Roblox have consistently also been up to trend on all things as well as improved their engine accordingly. SL has never done any of this. SL has just had things added to it that other VW's like Roblox had from day one or just updated systems that were forgotten about.

Now yes, I know Roblox is different, however that doesn't mean we cant compare the differences in the uptake of modern tech etc between the two to see just how SLOW Linden Lab are. Just look at the time line below compared to SL and see how Linden Lab have simply just failed at everything uptake wise.

Roblox: Released 2006    Second Life: Released 2003 (Second Life was at the forefront of 3D Virtual Worlds/metaverse)
Roblox: IOS version 2012    Second Life: Still waiting (9 year difference)
Roblox: Android Version 2014     Second Life: Still waiting (7 year difference)
Roblox: Smooth terrain (block look to smooth graphics) 2015    Second Life: Never updated terrain tools or fidelity
Roblox: Xbox version 2015    Second Life: Never released (likely never)
Roblox: VR support 2016    Second Life: Looked into but shelved
Roblox: 10 million user created in world games (experiences) created 2016     Second Life: region equivalent - 26095 in 2021
Roblox: Standalone PC version (previously web based only) 2016    Second Life: irrelevant
Roblox: massive server updates 2017    Second Life: 2020 (4 year difference)
Roblox: Party Place in response to COVID activated 2020    Second Life: No COVID incentive offered

Looking at the above SL started at the forefront of the metaverse. It was the ONLY metaverse in 2003. After its hype years of 2006-2007 it just started to go down from there just not keeping with the times.

Sadly Second Life reminds me of Kodak. A company that led the world in photography from the 1920's. They created the digital camera (in 1970's), but focused on their current offering of film camera's because the board never saw the need to update to the more modern aspects and so consequently by the time they began to focus more on their own version to rival the likes of Sony it was too little to late. 

 

A lot of what you said is true, but there's still a chance for Second Life. There are elements unique to SL as a whole, and only to SL, which allow certain sets of possible paths for growth and unmatched competitive edges to exist in this day and age. That window of opportunities is closing rapidly but it's still there

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16 minutes ago, lucagrabacr said:

A lot of what you said is true, but there's still a chance for Second Life. There are elements unique to SL as a whole, and only to SL, which allow certain sets of possible paths for growth and unmatched competitive edges to exist in this day and age. That window of opportunities is closing rapidly but it's still there

What elements are unique to SL now?

Being able to build in world? Nope
Being able to chat whilst building? Nope
Having individual region spaces to build an environment or 'experience on? Nope
Having a large open 'mainland' to explore? Nope
Having a real virtual economy? Nope
Having the ability to earn a virtual currency and trade that into RL currency? Nope
Having the ability to upload custom content and sell it? Nope
Having the ability to create a 3D avatar, customise its look and dress it? Nope
Having the ability to decorate your own house? Nope
Being able to create a scripted environment in a virtual world? Nope

There is literally NOTHING unique about second life now as a whole. Literally every game from 2010ish till now has taken the unique elements from Second Life and not only added them but done so better. Take for example Epic with Fortnite. They literally took the concept from Second Life for their inworld building mechanism (if I remember correctly LL showed it to Tim Sweeney). Putting aside graphics, Minecraft has more capability than second life and that includes Minecraft's Redstone scripting system of pre-provided objects.

The only unique element that Second Life still retains is what its developers wish the world would forget about and focus on other aspects in Second Life. That one unique thing is what keeps the Second Life economy running. It is the red light aspect of Second Life.

If they did SL2.0 instead of sansar, they MAY have taken back pole position, but now that sansar was a huge flop LL seem to have lost any motivation in taking risks again to the point where they are still questioning about updating to Vulkan despite them needing to before opengl goes belly-up.

Edited by Drayke Newall
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16 minutes ago, lucagrabacr said:

A lot of what you said is true, but there's still a chance for Second Life. There are elements unique to SL as a whole, and only to SL, which allow certain sets of possible paths for growth and unmatched competitive edges to exist in this day and age. That window of opportunities is closing rapidly but it's still there

My concern is that the days for sweeping architectural and systemic change have long since passed.

Linden's are burred under almost 18 years of content and holding fast to the belief that it continues to function unchanged is important.

If we could have sweeping change we need to aggressively retire certain parts of the toolkit (like LSO scripts and sculpts), toss the existing physics in the trash and replace it with something client-side authoritative (shifting the focus from a ridged server experience to a user focused experience), hard caps on assets defined by usecase (to end final render quality models being dumped in SL). A new standard selection of Linden bodies with new avatar editing tools to streamline the on ramping and bring sanity to the fashion industry (we did so much with the basic avatar, mesh bodies, rigged attachments and heads is killing us)

Content in a virtual world can't be forever. Clever hacks made by users to paper over a decade of architectural neglect less so.

Edited by Coffee Pancake
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4 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Content in a virtual world can't be forever. Clever hacks made by users to paper over a decade of architectural neglect less so.

I think that is what has killed SL as far as retention as well as future proofing. The fact that LL just plain and simply refuse to break content or make content redundant. If they did this years ago, SL would be in a better position. Now its just plodding along on life support until Tilia makes more money than SL does.

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Just now, Drayke Newall said:

What elements are unique to SL now?

Being able to build in world? Nope
Being able to chat whilst building? Nope
Having individual region spaces to build an environment or 'experience on? Nope
Having a large open 'mainland' to explore? Nope
Having a real virtual economy? Nope
Having the ability to earn a virtual currency and trade that into RL currency? Nope
Having the ability to upload custom content and sell it? Nope
Having the ability to create a 3D avatar, customise its look and dress it? Nope
Having the ability to decorate your own house? Nope
Being able to create a scripted environment in a virtual world? Nope

There is literally NOTHING unique about second life now as a whole. Literally every game from 2010ish till now has taken the unique elements from Second Life and not only added them but done so better. Take for example Epic with Fortnite. They literally took the concept from Second Life for their inworld building mechanism (if I remember correctly LL showed it to Tim Sweeney). Putting aside graphics, Minecraft has more capability than second life and that includes Minecraft's Redstone scripting system of pre-provided objects.

The only unique element that Second Life still retains is what its developers wish the world would forget about and focus on other aspects in Second Life. That one unique thing is what keeps the Second Life economy running. It is the red light aspect of Second Life.

I can't get into too much details for a few reasons but they are things that are not so apparent, these are real and SL is far from having no chance

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27 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

What elements are unique to SL now?

Being able to build in world? Nope
Being able to chat whilst building? Nope
Having individual region spaces to build an environment or 'experience on? Nope
Having a large open 'mainland' to explore? Nope
Having a real virtual economy? Nope
Having the ability to earn a virtual currency and trade that into RL currency? Nope
Having the ability to upload custom content and sell it? Nope
Having the ability to create a 3D avatar, customise its look and dress it? Nope
Having the ability to decorate your own house? Nope
Being able to create a scripted environment in a virtual world? Nope

There is literally NOTHING unique about second life now as a whole. Literally every game from 2010ish till now has taken the unique elements from Second Life and not only added them but done so better. Take for example Epic with Fortnite. They literally took the concept from Second Life for their inworld building mechanism (if I remember correctly LL showed it to Tim Sweeney). Putting aside graphics, Minecraft has more capability than second life and that includes Minecraft's Redstone scripting system of pre-provided objects.

The only unique element that Second Life still retains is what its developers wish the world would forget about and focus on other aspects in Second Life. That one unique thing is what keeps the Second Life economy running. It is the red light aspect of Second Life.

Eh. This is only partially true. While other games and platforms have some features reminiscent to SL's, there's no single platform that provides all of SL's key features, as well as the nearly unrestricted freedom to use those features.

I think LL is relatively safe for the time being. No other attempt at a "metaverse" has had any long term appeal, largely because they lack the right combination of features and freedom that remain SL's biggest draws.

How long will that last? Who knows? But nearly twenty years on and we've yet to see a real competitor appear. Even LL's attempt at a next gen platform greatly reigned in the freedom and lacked some key SL features.

 

ETA:

When I say LL is "relatively safe" I mean there's little chance of a competitor appearing and stealing their lunch money out from under them. SL still does have a problem with retention and gaining new users and that is a long term problem.

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14 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

My concern is that the days for sweeping architectural and systemic change have long since passed.

Linden's are burred under almost 18 years of content and holding fast to the belief that it's continues to function unchanged is important.

If we could have sweeping change we need to aggressively retire certain parts of the toolkit (like LSO scripts and sculpts), toss the existing physics in the trash and replace it with something client-side authoritative (shifting the focus from a ridged server experience to a user focused experience), hard caps on assets defined by usecase (to end final render quality models being dumped in SL). A new standard selection of Linden bodies with new avatar editing tools to streamline the on ramping and bring sanity to the fashion industry (we did so much with the basic avatar, mesh bodies, rigged attachments and heads is killing us)

Content in a virtual world can't be forever. Clever hacks made by users to paper over a decade of architectural neglect less so.

The possibility and leverage I've been alluding to exist with SL's current technical state taken into account, the days of technical advantages are certainly over for the most part but within the entirety of everything that is SL, lies certain sets of unique potentials just waiting to be harnessed

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23 minutes ago, lucagrabacr said:

A lot of what you said is true, but there's still a chance for Second Life. There are elements unique to SL as a whole, and only to SL, which allow certain sets of possible paths for growth and unmatched competitive edges to exist in this day and age. That window of opportunities is closing rapidly but it's still there

I agree - and one of those elements is surely ourselves! SL has attracted an active and engaged community of users and creators, of which I am one, even though my usage is restricted by my computer and broadband speeds.

I attended the pre-launch a few weeks ago of a new VR platform that is currently in development, that just might be the solution to the challenges SL currently faces, if the company developing  this and Linden Labs were able/willing to become partners.

It looks like this company could potentially provide the tech development and resources, and I know that they do in fact plan to partner with companies creating 3D gaming.

At the same time SL can offer something unique for the reasons already mentioned, plus the human element of creators and visionaries, and its own digital currency and ecosystem in the form of the Linden dollar.

There's a presentation about what is being developed by this company happening online this Thursday at 9.00 a.m. UK time - if anyone is interested and would like an invite, just send me a message here on this forum, and I can provide further details.

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