Future of the metaverse, and all that

[Ardy Lay]

17 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

(and the evidence failed to appear)

That evidence has been appearing for some time now.  To bad "mankind" ignored it for too long.

This makes me wonder:  How long does it take the digital canary to die when things are done poorly in a digital world?

[animats]

6 hours ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

I would (do, actually) agree with you, except the responses I kept hearing at the Server User Group meetings from the Lindens regarding such problems was "it's hard".

How to get over that mountain and find our way to happy-valley?

That is the job of the new VP of Engineering, Mojo Linden.

LL's developers are trying to maintain an engine with the complexity of Roblox or Unity or  Unreal with a far smaller staff. They have all they can do keeping the system going. Roblox has several hundred developers, about fifty teams, and high ambitions. They have a "can't do" attitude because they are understaffed and overwhelmed.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

4 minutes ago, animats said:

They have a "can't do" attitude because they are understaffed and overwhelmed.

Does this mean we're doomed ? (  )

[AnnabelleApocalypse]

26 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

There might be an internal one that isn't for the likes of us.

Milk it -------> Till it sinks.

Its a fairly straightforward map.

24 minutes ago, Profaitchikenz Haiku said:

Does this mean we're doomed ? (  )

Were just coasting baby. Have been for a while. Will be for the foreseeable.

[Coffee Pancake]

12 minutes ago, AnnabelleApocalypse said:

Milk it -------> Till it sinks.

Its a fairly straightforward map.

Then we're already dead.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

34 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Then we're already dead.

I shouldn't have attempted to swerve us into the "SL is doomed" area, but I couldn't resist it.

Madam is most definitely alive, else I would not attempt to swerve madam.

Sing "Cockles and Mussels"

[AnnabelleApocalypse]

Sorry, I am a bit of a doomer, and I am being a bit flippant. 

But to loop it back around to the main topic of the thread, it is becoming really really hard to see where LL fits into the metaverse picture of the future. 

I mean there are only 3 real options, right?

1. Milk it till it sinks. Coasting. Managed decline. Whatever you want to call it.

2. Upgrade the heck out of SL and hope you can do that enough to compete against the newer crowd. 

3. Try to build something new (tried that, screwed it up).

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

My view is the Metaverse is what we create, ourselves. It's not what somebody else thinks we want, Sansar was a classic example of what happens when you think you know what everybody wants. We're making the metaverse now, every minute we're either logged in or thinking about it or talking about it. If one platform folds, there'll be a diaspora to whatever suitable alternatives there are.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Profaitchikenz Haiku

[ChinRey]

2 hours ago, AnnabelleApocalypse said:

IMHO the biggest single problem with The Lab is that they (as a company) always seemed to want to be something other than they are, pathologically so.

That's how it was right from the start. To understand LL, I think it's important to keep in mind that they weren't actually trying to make a virtual world. Linden World was only supposed to be a test environment for their Grand Project, a VR headset. Only after their original plan fell through did they decide to rename it Second Life and go public with it.

It was success by accident, not by design, and it seems to me this still affects their attitude towards product development even today.

[Rowan Amore]

They seem to always throw out, "but if we do that, we'll break all that old content that we promised to keep around forever and ever."   Well, that old content will be just as useless if they shut the doors because they fail to attract new users.  A LOT of new users.  

Would I want to start over from scratch?  Hell no.  Do I want to lose the thousands of dollars invested over 12 years?  Nope.  Would I start over and start rebuilding if they completely upgraded everything?  Damn right I would.  

There really only seems to be 2 choices.  Limp.along using duct tape and string until death or chuck it all and start over.   Personally, I think I could live with starting fresh.

[Mr Amore]

Add another upcoming 'Multiverse', but this one has some pedigree behind it

 

The generation who played UO and SWG are all 30+ now so maybe this platform will attract more adults. The 'metaverse' is a loose term right now, so far it sounds like another Roblox/Core Games, but hopefully aimed at a mature audience.

https://www.playableworlds.com/news/riffs-by-raph:-revealing-our-technology/

Quote

But it’s not just a server. It’s a network of servers. Whole MMO worlds can bubble up and go away on the fly based on player demand. It’s a heck of a lot more efficient than something like a headless Unreal server.

And you’ll be able to hop between worlds without needing to switch clients. It permits a single, shardless, ever-expanding, ever-changing online universe.

We’ve already got it working with full server-side game logic. Meaning – each world can have completely different gameplay, without needing to change code or take the server down for updates. We’ll even be able to map your controls from the cloud, because when we say different gameplay, we mean it.

This unlocks things that AAA games haven’t been able to do before, like A/B testing. It means that someday, we can let users write their own code for those servers, and they could earn money from their creations.

When you visit different worlds, or even different parts of worlds, everything comes down on the fly to a thin client. We don’t need to patch to add new content. Every world can look completely different – one might be ours, one might be a 3rd party creator, or a branded world, or built by users. For that matter, it won’t eat your hard drive: assets go in a cache, and the cache throws away old stuff you don’t need.

That client might be on any device: phone, console, PC. Because as far as we are concerned, a device is just a window into other worlds. What device you use should not matter.

 

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

10 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

There really only seems to be 2 choices.  Limp.along using duct tape and string until death or chuck it all and start over.   Personally, I think I could live with starting fresh.

Sometimes I have the same feeling about RL, but then I realise the starting-over is just anecdotal. Most of us are doing option 1.

I see a few people with profiles -  "Not a new avi, I've been here xx years, just starting over", but I think "Why say so? You're not starting afresh, just anchoring yourself to what remains of your past."

I'm learning to live with what I've got in both lives.

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

18 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

That's how it was right from the start. To understand LL, I think it's important to keep in mind that they weren't actually trying to make a virtual world. Linden World was only supposed to be a test environment for their Grand Project, a VR headset. Only after their original plan fell through did they decide to rename it Second Life and go public with it.

It was success by accident, not by design, and it seems to me this still affects their attitude towards product development even today.

I hadn't realised this, and you know what? It's actually made me love SL even more. If it had all been planned from the start I would just be yet another consumer forever attached to their tar-baby product.

[sirhc DeSantis]

24 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

sing duct tape and string until death or chuck it all and start over.   Personally, I think I could live with starting fresh.

Sorry, I did not mean to cut off the first bit:) Us olds can't handle new tech after all.  More seriously, I could replace (and have) most of core* inv with what I have learned because of SL in any number of othe r places. And I have. But.. I have been making stuff (mostly badly) for 14 years. And none of the other places have been worth the bother. A look sure but not interesting enough.

*thats the script side. I mostly gave up as even though I can get by in LUA, js and all the other toy languages no platform offered the ease that LSL does simply because it existed when I arrived in a 'world' it could interact with  and make dance. I honestly came here to sculpt and got distracted.  Looking at Sansar from here as its pertinent but others too. ( Anyone who can make stuff for here can flog over at the U market et albut - dull )

@Mr AmoreI read Koster too and nice to see them in the 'news' again but they have not actually produced anything tangible in the space (aside from commenting) since 2006. 2013 if leaving the FBorg counts.

What kills me is the idea that there is a need for an all encompassing 'metaverse' in the first place. I already have a digital self with sub and (ahem) meta selfs that cover all I need. I have in place a very tried and tested method of linking them where needed - its the 'me' behind and slightly above (if current seat of mind are correct which I doubt) this keyboard.

The M* term existed before SL, Second Life was touted (wrongly) as another wave and now there are new calls for it. All reborn VC buzz with little objective I find attractive. None of which match my Gibsonian flavoured view but - good I tend to like my walled gardens linked just as I choose. They are adjuncts, not the whole

 

[Nika Talaj]

1 hour ago, Mr Amore said:

Add another upcoming 'Multiverse', but this one has some pedigree behind it...

The generation who played UO and SWG are all 30+ now so maybe this platform will attract more adults. The 'metaverse' is a loose term right now, so far it sounds like another Roblox/Core Games, but hopefully aimed at a mature audience.

https://www.playableworlds.com/news/riffs-by-raph:-revealing-our-technology/

In-ter-esting.  There is a lot to like about Playable Worlds.  Not only the impressive pedigree (and you have to love their posting most (if not all) of their employees on their About page), but also the funding.  They've announced a pretty modest $13M total investment, with the last ($10M) round closing a year ago June.  IMHO, Playable Worlds is probably still rather closely held. The only link to anything SL is that the lead investor in that 2nd round, Galaxy Interactive, also invested in Hi Fidelity.  Both of the investors named in that round are focused on blockchain technologies. 

The tone of Playable Worlds' communications is quite different from other platform players like Roblox and Core.

"Playable Worlds is building an online world where a broad range of players can find a home."

cf Core Games:

"Core is an endless arcade of thousands of free games to play and worlds to explore designed by a global community of developers. Play thousands of Unreal-powered games in every genre imaginable, or create, share, and earn from your own!"

Also likable is Playable Games' very low-key home page, with a blurb I find weirdly evocative of early SL.

Quote

We create playable worlds.

Worlds where all sorts of people can have fun.

Worlds that live and breathe.

Worlds full of rich story and wonder.

We make these worlds for you. For players.

We use cutting-edge technology and design.

We enable communities and societies.

We create these worlds. You live in them.

They are your worlds, your stories.

Your world, your imagination, neh?

I wonder, how stupid would it be to propose that LL port SL the WORLD (not the platform) to Playable Worlds?  I have believed for a little while now that LL's most valuable asset is its incredibly loyal core user base, with its mesh of long-term communities.

I also don't know whether Playable Worlds would be interested in such an undertaking.  There may be an opportunity cost; not sure how much of any effort they may spend on SL would carry forward to other games/customers.

[Coffee Pancake]

We've seen large RP communities in SL hollowed out in a matter of weeks once key people made the decision to move platform, and the only reason it took that long was the move wasn't free at the point of entry.

[Drayke Newall]

12 hours ago, animats said:

 They have a "can't do" attitude because they are understaffed and overwhelmed.

That is their own fault brought on by the love of "shiny" nothing more. If they had invested solely in improving what they had rather than trying to attach themselves onto the coat tails of every new thing, they would be in a financial position to have that kind of staff numbers.

No other major company does what LL have done and still do in focusing on multiple projects having them fail and still go after "shiny". They build a base first and then branch out. Lab on the other hand have never established their base and despite dwindling users and income still focused on other projects.

Additionally, there are plenty of major companies, indie developers, start-ups etc that do more with less staff than LL have done in the past 10 years.

LL a pathologically lazy and it shows in every place they attempt to do anything and has nothing to do with how many staff they have. Arguing otherwise is absurd and an insult to intelligence. 

Want an example of how LAZY Linden Lab is? Look no further than these very forums. They took the time (2 minutes) to change the header logo of Second Life from the old green one to the new blue one, yet couldn't be a****d to actually also change the logo next to the individual forum sections on the main forum page.

Want another easy example. Tell me what company big or small takes 2 years to update a website and still has only changed at most 2 pages of a multipage website?

But never fear, at least they took the time, effort and money to make t-shirts and stickers for people to buy. 🙄 Dont worry though, it is so concealed and secret that it is not even advertised on the website other than two links on page's completely irrelevant to it and in really really tiny text than no one will buy them anyway. Your $L going to good marketing use right there... But as you say, its a staffing issue.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Drayke Newall

[Coffee Pancake]

Welp

[Mollymews]

16 hours ago, AnnabelleApocalypse said:

 it is becoming really really hard to see where LL fits into the metaverse picture of the future. 
 

it doesn't fit. Well more exactly Second Life has no place in the capital M metaverse

this decision was made by Linden the company, back in 2008 when they canned the open interoperability project with IBM. A consequence of which was that Linden withdrew from AWG, the Architecture Working Group, in about 2011. AWG initially included IBM, a whole bunch of universities, the US military development group and all kinds of other organisations and people

Linden link to AWG here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Architecture_Working_Group

Oz Linden said on here just before he retired about why Linden pulled out of AWG. He said the reason was that Linden believed at the time that their protocols were an insufficient basis on which to go forward

had they persevered, or more specifically I think, had Linden cbosen to go down the open interoperability road, rather than go with the closed SL Enterprise product then I think they would today be in the capital M metaverse box seat

but they never, and they aren't, and what we see is all there is. And we as residents will keep on logging in to our lonely planet world doing what we have always done and what we will always do, until one day we can't anymore

[Sid Nagy]

The big questions are:
Do the average mainstream people really want a metaverse?
And if yes, where do they want to use it for and spend their money on related to that metaverse?

IMHO it isn't so that there are millions and millions more who are desperately waiting to dress up barbies, live in a virtual world, hold  a virtual jobs to earn some virtual peanut money, watch their avatar virtual dancing or having virtual sex, go to virtual entertainment acts.

There has to be more connection and to RL and more usability in RL and its economy, otherwise a metaverse will stay in the dreaming stages IMHO.

[ChinRey]

2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

had they persevered, or more specifically I think, had Linden cbosen to go down the open interoperability road, rather than go with the closed SL Enterprise product then I think they would today be in the capital M metaverse box seat

You need to explain this in a language progammers can understand, Molly:

default
{
	state_entry()
	{
		if(~llListFindList(AWGMembers,["Linden Lab"]))state Prosper();
		else state Oblivion();
	}
}

 

[Coffee Pancake]

PLAN B

If the SL platform is ubiquitous. We win.

 

[animats]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

If the SL platform is ubiquitous. We win.

There's already Open Simulator. Last update 2019.

Really good idea, but like all the federated social networks, failed to take off.

[Arielle Popstar]

35 minutes ago, animats said:

There's already Open Simulator. Last update 2019.

Really good idea, but like all the federated social networks, failed to take off.

Well no, last update to trunk was today. Pay no mind to the latest stated stable as they are not updating that page much anymore. An alternative which many find better is here.

[Ardy Lay]

8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

they are not updating that page much anymore

According to Drayke Newall, not updating a page is a sign of LAZY.  Tell those gits over there at Open Simulator that you expect better of them.