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Business issues with Role Players


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G'day,

I'm a club owner in SL and I'm hoping this is the right place for this. We are having issues with staff & patrons being attacked by players from Angel & Demons and for the past 2 weeks from Progeny which attacked anyone they could and the majority of people hadn't even heard of it til last night. These gaming systems no longer respect business rules of no Role Play on the premises, instead they send other members and do it again. Last night after we banned several members that are part of Progeny they sent other members to continue the harassment & attacks on a DJ who was working, then they all piled in to the landing point, flooded the sim with particles and crashed the sim. This is the second week in a row that they have attacked working staff. 

A few months ago we had a similar situation with Angels & Demons, I reached out to the person who was their liege and the game creators, they all responded with there's nothing we can do about how players use our game.

Even if I did contact the creators of Progeny it states in their manual  "But what if you don't like rules? Outside this tidy system of laws and civility live another kind of vampire, those who have chosen to live apart from the main society of Progeny....who have either been exiled from the community or have chosen to walk in the shadows, free of law and order...these are the 'Outcasts'...When a large group of Outcasts bands together they can apply to be granted the state of being a "Rogue House"...with their own set of rules."

Something needs to be done to protect businesses from these gaming systems. I was one of Sanctuary Rocks owners and I've owned Sanctuary of Rock since 2014 so we've seen all sorts of things that we've had to deal with to protect our business, staff and vips BUT these new gaming systems are refusing to even work with us to prevent these attacks in places of business. I get it from their perspective they created the game and its up to the users how they play but at the same time business owners can do nothing to keep it out of their stores, clubs, etc.

One thing about Bloodlines their players almost always respected the no biting rules.

A friend of mine told me this "yes the game he plays, can be played anywhere. He had me come to Truth hair one day, and it was to show me that he and a bunch of others were up high "fighting" and they were. a whole big group of people flying around attacking each other."

What can we do to keep business safe from these kinds of attacks? Keep our staff able to do a 2 hour shift without being attacked while working? Keep anyone visiting free from attacks or harassment?

If nothing is done to allow business to run smoothly and without attacks it will end up hurting all of Second Life and could cause business owners to  close and/or leave SL because they have no rights to protect their businesses. 

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We have considered that since it was introduced but there is still alot of people that refuse to give LL any personal info and for any business you need patrons to be able to access your place of business, regardless if they are age verified. This is why there is frustration because its damned if we do, damned if we don't. 

Why can't these games have a safe zone to businesses so they can operate normally and without interference?  Their game play shouldn't cause disruptions or attacks on staff and anyone who is there.  Its not fair to people that have put their heart, soul, time and energy into what they've created to have it destroyed because these games are allowed to run wild all over the grind and attack wherever and whenever they want. 

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1 minute ago, Lainey Thorne said:

Why can't these games have a safe zone to businesses so they can operate normally and without interference?  

No public rez and no public scripts makes your land "safe".

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In long term, what might be a way to get heard and maybe find protection by the lab could be to make a suggestion via the issue tracker / bug tracker.
You could for example ask for special requirements for scripted game systems, like...  The developers who are providing systems that can be abused for griefing purposes are responsible for the product they provide and how it is used. Namely, their responsibility to track their members activities and if the users of their system are reported to Linden Lab, its their responsibility to block the system for this account, temp or permanent. I do know that this is possible from prior experience with a Combat System where game masters got moderation rights. How ever, this doesn't help you in the current situation.

If it was my club ... I would consider to explain the situation via a letter in a good visible poster to my visitors and in a notice in case there is a group, then set the land to group access only. Make the group a paid group (you can refund that, but it grants that the griefer wont join.)

Its better than closing the business for a while until the hordes found a new prey ...

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Just now, Matty Luminos said:

Set the land to no scripts running (except for whoever has land management rights). If scripts don't run, their huds won't work so they won't be able to actually play the game on your land. 

actually did try that but in our case, having a club, people want their dances and leave because they can't. In a perfect world all these suggestions absolutely make sense but this is SL where everyone has to have their dances, huds, etc and if they can't use it at your business they'll say ok and go some place else, possibly never giving the original place another chance. 

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Just now, Alrunia Ahn said:

In long term, what might be a way to get heard and maybe find protection by the lab could be to make a suggestion via the issue tracker / bug tracker.
You could for example ask for special requirements for scripted game systems, like...  The developers who are providing systems that can be abused for griefing purposes are responsible for the product they provide and how it is used. Namely, their responsibility to track their members activities and if the users of their system are reported to Linden Lab, its their responsibility to block the system for this account, temp or permanent. I do know that this is possible from prior experience with a Combat System where game masters got moderation rights. How ever, this doesn't help you in the current situation.

If it was my club ... I would consider to explain the situation via a letter in a good visible poster to my visitors and in a notice in case there is a group, then set the land to group access only. Make the group a paid group (you can refund that, but it grants that the griefer wont join.)

Its better than closing the business for a while until the hordes found a new prey ...

thank you Alrunia for your suggestions and we are definitely working on the issue/bug tracker but I wasn't aware that you could ask for special requirements and the other suggestions are definitely something to consider.  We've always kept the group closed and only invite people that hang out but the small fee may be a good step to. 

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6 minutes ago, Lainey Thorne said:

actually did try that but in our case, having a club, people want their dances and leave because they can't.

That indicates to me that the dances provided in your venue are not good enough quality. Update your venue dance machines and guests won't need to use their own.

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7 minutes ago, Alrunia Ahn said:

In long term, what might be a way to get heard and maybe find protection by the lab could be to make a suggestion via the issue tracker / bug tracker.
You could for example ask for special requirements for scripted game systems, like...  The developers who are providing systems that can be abused for griefing purposes are responsible for the product they provide and how it is used. Namely, their responsibility to track their members activities and if the users of their system are reported to Linden Lab, its their responsibility to block the system for this account, temp or permanent. I do know that this is possible from prior experience with a Combat System where game masters got moderation rights. How ever, this doesn't help you in the current situation.

If it was my club ... I would consider to explain the situation via a letter in a good visible poster to my visitors and in a notice in case there is a group, then set the land to group access only. Make the group a paid group (you can refund that, but it grants that the griefer wont join.)

Its better than closing the business for a while until the hordes found a new prey ...

progeny is a system that doesn't notice, animate, touch others, not harm others .. and it's not about Bloodlines as i understand.
LL will do nothing about it.
It was a griefing attack after banning certain people, i can't imagin LL will force RP huds to be modified for that, because what OP said, here or in the other thread, the griefing was a standard particle attack from the landingpoint, nó RP huds but the widely available griefer and toy tools from MP.
 

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4 minutes ago, Lainey Thorne said:

... I wasn't aware that you could ask for special requirements...

Well, asking is one...if the Labs think its important enough and work towards a solution that protects the residents from this sort of annoyance and showstopper for businesses , is another :D

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3 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

That indicates to me that the dances provided in your venue are not good enough quality. Update your venue dance machines and guests won't need to use their own.

Are you serious?  Judging the quality of a venue by their dance machines.... nah...

I always use my own dances, anyway what is provided. Also people like to have fun, use their own AO and the one or other attached fun... we are talking about parties.

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4 minutes ago, Alrunia Ahn said:

Are you serious?  Judging the quality of a venue by their dance machines.... nah...

apart from the real discussion here .. yes many clubs have a load of crap in their machines, dances that were already old when SL still was in the alpha stage.

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4 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

That indicates to me that the dances provided in your venue are not good enough quality. Update your venue dance machines and guests won't need to use their own.

No disrespect intended but have you ever owned a club? We have dances from all the dance stores and we continually update, BUT from the moment dance hud were introduced people have refused to use house dances because they want to twerk or have booty dances or this dance or that dance or the simple fact that they only use their hud. 
 

All the suggestions are great and I'm not trying to poke holes in them or disregard anything said but I've managed and owned club since my 3rd month of SL in 2007 so I've seriously dealt with situations over the years and made changes because of this or that, we've always been able to find a solution or work around. Those days seem to be over with these new players and creators. There only interested in selling their game which I get but from a business owner stand point we have to look at the entire picture of do we close the groups, shut off scripts, age verify, etc it will cut off patrons who have supported us for years and all of a sudden we want to make them age verify or not use "their" hud. From a business stand point thats a band aid on a bigger issue that will completely affect access to someone's favorite store, club, etc.

This is the first time EVER I've reached out for some idea how to deal with a situation but this is unlike anything we've dealt with before. 

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1 minute ago, Lainey Thorne said:

This is the first time EVER I've reached out for some idea how to deal with a situation but this is unlike anything we've dealt with before. 

except the tools for access, only a consequent and constant use of the banhammer to kick the creeps out, not much more, will help.
Not populair, but perhaps temporary use of a system like Voodoo can take some pressure off the employees .. but there is a chance people of your groups are on the voodoo blacklist.

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It seems like we've been seeing a lot of complaints about griefers recently. 

Several Bellisserians seem to be having issues. Clubs are having issues. I think it's time for LL to send a strong message and start just banning people who deliberately mess with other's enjoyment of SL. No warnings, no second chances. These people know better and they get off on ruining things for others. Screw that. Get rid of them. 

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5 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

(..), i can't imagin LL will force RP huds to be modified for that, because what OP said, here or in the other thread, the griefing was a standard particle attack from the landingpoint, nó RP huds but the widely available griefer and toy tools from MP.
 

Of course nobody will react if this is a single case -  at this point none of us can tell if this happened to other businesses as well.

The fighting in the sky at Truth though likely was done via Combat HUD, if I understood this correct, and this is not a single case that roleplayer  combat HUD user behave disrespectful

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As a longstanding club owner myself I've not had to deal with a problem like this in my own club, but the way I would handle it would be to first ensure that all my regular guests are in the relevant group, make the group invite-only, and then I would temporarily (for 2-4 weeks) restrict access to group members only (Junkyard Blues ran successfully on this model for years). A couple of weeks should be long enough to put off most of the Progeny griefers but after that, you can open access but keep scripts to group members only, and keep the group to invite only. That way, your regular guests can still use their own dance huds if they want to, you still have total control of who is allowed in the group, and anyone unwanted won't be able to play their silly game.

Matty is right but only half right - it's not necessary to turn off scripts for everyone; you can still turn them off for the general public whilst continuing to allow your genuine guests to use them without restriction.

Edited by Lewis Luminos
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6 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

It seems like we've been seeing a lot of complaints about griefers recently. 

Several Bellisserians seem to be having issues. Clubs are having issues. I think it's time for LL to send a strong message and start just banning people who deliberately mess with other's enjoyment of SL. No warnings, no second chances. These people know better and they get off on ruining things for others. Screw that. Get rid of them. 

Alas, LL has always taken a very softly, softly approach until something extreme happens.  I'd wield the banhammer much sooner.  

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29 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

That indicates to me that the dances provided in your venue are not good enough quality. Update your venue dance machines and guests won't need to use their own.

I never even check the dances at clubs.  I always use my own and if my dance HUD won't work somewhere, then I'm not staying.

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6 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

When I had my club in world for a couple of years, I inherited an Intan dance ball and it had some ancient dances in it. But I did notice many using their own huds, including me.

One of my DJs always brings her own hud, and she always invites every guest to join it, if they want to. Most do, if they're not dancing with a partner. It's kind of nice to see everyone dancing in sync.

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