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My analysis on how LL's marketing of SL can be even better while simultaneously increasing its cultural relevance


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1 minute ago, Beth Macbain said:

“The Brothel of the Internet” 😂😂😂

Did Back Page go offline?

No back page would be termed I would think something like "the solicitation strip of the internet" considering it is advertisement. Brothel is more suitable to SL as it is a place you go to you know 😉.

I'm just waiting for these posts to be removed by a mod lol.

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My analysis on how LL's marketing of SL has shaped its public perception while simultaneously maintaining its cultural relevance:

"Second Life. Where you can pretend you are an extrovert, you introverted pervert... Download today!"  

So I've been talking with Draxtor about the topic because he does care a lot about the inworld communities he represented in his videos as he said, which he emphasized to me are his top priorities whe

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12 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

True, but we're talking John Q. Public here.

The same John Q. Public who is shocked and outraged whenever there is any discussion of legalizing sex work, but then gets arrested 2 weeks later for being a john?

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On 3/10/2020 at 4:17 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

I noticed the Lindens' marketing post and I thought it was interesting but didn't see any discussion of it right away and didn't have much to add. I'm glad that luca in fact started this discussion earlier, not that the Lab copied him, because they would have to be preparing for weeks/months before publicizing a thing like this.

Many people who have these debates and opinions on this subject don't have customers. Some don't even log in but prefer to chat on the forums. But I do have customers. And the only marketing that has increased their number, or added longer log-ins to their number is the Linden Homes. I find that many people get the Premium for the Linden home, decorate it, then get tired of lag and boredom and limitations and come to my rentals where they can contribute tier, then go back to Linden Homes when there is a new shiny or they feel like it. So it hasn't cut into my business really, and I personally can only welcome anything that increases the number of premium accounts and aids the concurrency and the market.

The pitch for a long time has been to "creators" and "designers" and frankly, I think this leaves most people cold. The front page that says "Start a home" with an adoring couple is probably reaching more people at least in the user base. Does it reach people outside? I actually doubt it. The user base is made up of creatives, sure, but also mainly older women with some disposable income and time and younger men with same, who often end up as partners in SL where they wouldn't in SL. Just watch all the LL videos about couples that met in SL and RL and you will understand that this is the demographic. The people who have the most time for SL are those that are retired or disabled and on a fixed income, unemployed or unemployable, or able to make a living in SL. Nobody likes to think of the SL demographic as the Island of Misfit Toys or Massive RP for Shut-ins, but there's something to that -- and that's actually a good thing. In Europe the population is aging; there are a lot of people under-employed and sick and now forced to stay home due to coronavirus. So rather than seeing this as a negative, embrace it. Sure, there are plenty of ordinary people on SL with jobs and families. In fact, if you see a very successful store with good customer service, you might find it's owned by a woman with a supportive partner and multiple kids that have given her the real experience of management most men never get! 

Still, if you have a RL partner, if you have a job or run a business, like some of my long-time friends in SL or even my own children, you have little or no time for SL. You spend your time on Instagram, of all places. Why? Because you have an audience of your peers there. This is a vicious circle, of course. Like Baron von Munchhausen, SL has to hoist itself up by its pigtail to the skies to launch itself, i.e. you can't find the audience until the audience is there because it believes there *is* an audience. Whew! 

Basically, there are three things people want to do online in general, or in SL in particular: 1) play war 2) play house 3) play store. "Play" is the operative here, as it is not real life, even if you are posting a RL kitty on Facebook, it's an idealized kitty already. People who want "play war" are in the wrong pew in SL because it doesn't have the graphics and speed for it, and it annoys most of the user base. "Play  house" can extend from chatting and posing and blogging and finding a sex partner and setting up a house together. "Play store" is either making and selling or shopping. I find really most people in the demographics I see, which are people who want to rent so admittedly are self-selected from sandboxers and casual dancers, want to "play store", i.e. shop and then "play house" -- decorate and socialize in that house. 

FairreLilette is right that we should really include the decorators of houses as "creatives" in SL although that is not acceptable in the industry. I have seen people make a prim table and pull stuff out of the library they are happy arranging and rearranging even when I offer to give them mesh furniture. The point is that it is "mine" -- people want to control their environment.

Long ago Philip said the attraction of SL -- the lure, the charm -- is that unlike the real world based on atoms, you can manipulate a digital world made of pixels. You can't endlessly buy furniture and re-decorate in RL or dress crazily or fill your house with unicorns but in SL you can, and that's a draw. 

So in that sense what lucar said about "being what you want" as the ad basis could be used more -- but I think the manipulation of the environment, creator or not, is the draw. Showing avatars reaching out their hand with those white power lines coming out and either moving something around or making something move with a script.

BUT I'll be the first to note that the "power decorators" are a minority even among my renters, which is why I have furnished homes. For a lot of people, getting things out of inventory and placing them, especially with the pernicious "mesh bounce" problem, is just too hard. Even just moving around is too hard! I see too many people leave out of frustration, although I still have the impression that the main reason people leave is from a relationship gone wrong. That isn't really LL's job to fix, but they could offer a RL verification service for those who want it.

I don't think you need to insist the Lab develop other separate worlds, as FairreLilette seems to urge with a "Tinyville".  For one, not everybody wants to be in that world in the way you imagine. I recently got some Dinkie avatars and decorated a Dinkie house in the RFL decorating contest, and I enjoyed it and am planning to do more, but I don't want to be "cute". I don't want to talk baby talk -- and as I discover more tenants who also happen to be Dinkies which I hadn't noticed before, I hear they also don't want this saccharine "cuteness" with the "yusss" and the "purkle" stuff. I think Dinkies should be dignified. Certainly there should be room for anyone to take a given sub-genre in any direction they like. And I think with any separate community, whether furries or Goreans, LL doesn't need to be involved unless they violate the TOS. There is nothing to stop you from making your own separate Tinyville with any laws or features you like, on an island or even on the Mainland. It might actually be more successful if people have the freedom to come and go.

Luca made a very good video about cyberpunk. But I have to say this simply doesn't rent. People rent all kinds of things but they don't rent that. I even put it out because I like some of it myself. It's dead. Post-apocalypse also doesn't rent. I put that out -- zero interest. I so loved those JP "Submerged Towers" that I cleared several lots and offered people to rent just the floors or even the whole thing for half a Linden per prim. For months, I watched as I drove away my other tenants, even those with Firestorm and "de-render" (it shows you the limits of de-render when each new guest has to do it). Finally, reluctantly, I took it down, and immediately rented the lots. Then months later, a tenant asked if he could put up one, and I had to scour the areas to find something on the edge of the world that wouldn't drive others away. I am devoted to the Mainland and I won't use Firestorm and will not de-render, for lots of reasons. It's a challenge but I think you have to figure out how to get along with these different views and motivations. LL has enough freedom with islands and huge swathes of abandoned land on the Mainland that you can make any world you like. So make it, and see who shows up. 

PS I found with a "Container Community" offered for cheap with everything from vardos to old trucking containers barely rented and I kept it for years. Finally I got sick of the overprimming and complaining that always comes from the cheapest seats, plus most of it wouldn't rent. I merged the parcels, raised the price slightly, took away the "Container" theme and instantly the whole area was rented by people who wanted more "normal" houses. Boy, do I feel like a chump. I should have done this years ago. Long ago an older man who ran a successful real estate business in SL and was in the aerospace industry in RL was horrified at my cheap newbie areas. "You gotta get out of that," he kept warning me. And he was right. The idea that there are these masses who need cheap tiny living space is -- limited. Yes, some do. But frankly, they are often alts of people with entire islands. It doesn't pay to pitch to the lowest common denominator, I've found. People complain there isn't cheap land; but frankly, even the dirt cheap land available now for less than what they spend on lattes isn't what they buy. They are in a minority. SL is made up of people who spend, first of all on their own avatar, then on homes and vehicles. So accept it. People want picket fences, even though some Lindens and forums regs sneer at this Trumanville. Guess what the Lindens finally made, however....Bellissaria. 

And that's just it. SL is a harsh task mistress on the market. The market doesn't want cyberpunk, apocalypse, even containers. They want suburban lots and Linden Homes. So the Lindens have a winner with that, and they should build on that by reducing the lag and providing structured events because people want them -- they don't games where things are hard to find or giant rocks eat them -- see above re: "play war". They want somebody to organize a picnic and a hoe-down. Truly they do. Bellissaria and the Mole fandom illustrate that.

I think LL should be unabashed about advertising SL as a place to both socialize and hold business meetings during the coronavirus epidemic. Lots of RL things I'm involved in have been cancelled. The pitch to businesses failed earlier because the businesses either wanted to secure their data in SL which is impossible and they shouldn't try (it led to making "Nebraska" and unacceptable things like special stores with select creators to sell only to businesses). Businesses don't expect to secure their data on Twitter or Facebook; it's a marketing tool. So they should see SL as just one more thing. To the extent that this process of going and having a meeting with avatars can be streamlined and packaged as a "try me" cheap package, it should be. But it shouldn't be segregated from the rest of SL or displace the rest of the market. Another reason businesses failed is they didn't make things for avatars. I wept when I lost my precious Microsft-made marshmallows in a big inventory loss -- they were unique. Sears wanted you to buy a washer and dryer in RL, when we had no where to put them. They should have sold them for SL homes. LL should round up those educators and businesses they didn't scare away and get them to tout the immersiveness and effectiveness of meeting online. And why not? 

 

Prokofy, this is a long post and I am juggling many things right now.

I just want to address a few things in this post briefly.  I said my suggestion for TinyLand is just a suggestion because that is what it is - nothing more than a suggestion nor do I state anywhere what I think a Dinkie should be.  You state a Dinkie should be dignified...I think a Dinkie should be anything it would like to be.  We have "stately" Dinkies like Lords who always dress formally...so there are all kinds of Dinkies.  But, imo, as we all have one, that is cute too.  

Another thing I wanted to say is you mentioned homes with "mesh bounce"...why not just rez a prim and make it invisible to get rid of the "mesh bounce"?

  

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8 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Prokofy, this is a long post and I am juggling many things right now.

I just want to address a few things in this post briefly.  I said my suggestion for TinyLand is just a suggestion because that is what it is - nothing more than a suggestion nor do I state anywhere what I think a Dinkie should be.  You state a Dinkie should be dignified...I think a Dinkie should be anything it would like to be.  We have "stately" Dinkies like Lords who always dress formally...so there are all kinds of Dinkies.  But, imo, as we all have one, that is cute too.  

Another thing I wanted to say is you mentioned homes with "mesh bounce"...why not just rez a prim and make it invisible to get rid of the "mesh bounce"?

  

FairreLilette, I understand it's just a suggestion, but it's a suggestion I also make a suggestion about -- that it is not necessary. Yes, a Dinkie or any kind of creature should be whatever they like.

But you know and I know that that's not how it works in reality. Dinkies, like other small creatures, have a certain set and widespread culture that many adhere to. Most want them to be cute; most want to talk the baby talk and refer to themselves in the third person at times as it is a role play at heart. And that's fine, but I just find it off-putting and say so.

And sure, people can do what they like except there are always culture police, especially in SL. When I announced I was decorating a tiny house with Dinkie things in the RFL Home & Garden Expo, I had the experience of tenants coming and even seeing one who I didn't know was a Dinkie sitting on the porch and enjoying it -- that was very gratifying.

I had one person come and offer to take me around to the stores and show me the communities and the freebie place which was amazing and was very helpful.

But I also had one forums reg who snipes at me here swoop in and say belligerently, "Now that you're a Dinkie, are you not going to be mean any more?"

As if his notion of behavior and level of criticism tolerated should define what is "nice" and should prevail in Dinkieland.

His idea of "mean" was that I...criticized GTFO -- and rightly so, and in fact-based manner. and with ample evidence. In fact since then, I've only caught GTFO *again* buying land next to me and putting in ad farms at a huge price -- which is a despicable practice. I abuse reported it and also urged that this seller do the right thing and put them at a normal price so that people who actually live on that sim can buy it. He did, and I bought it. And that's because I've been able to make a public issue of it. Given that the Lindens will never do anything about it, we have to use vigorous publicity and commentary to address the ills of our society. That is normal in a liberal democratic society. Your or this forums reg would do no less about Trump. But there is this idea that the Lindens, the Moles, top designers, the FIC, various big companies -- the status quo -- are somehow off limits and beyond criticism and should in fact be adulated. 

Naturally I don't believe that.

I have also discovered a tiny designer who has blocked me from purchases. And that is common in our vicious, low-information/high-prejudice society. I have a number of merchants who do that to me or ban me from their stores not because I'm a griefer or violate copyright, which would be valid reasons, but because they don't like my blog or my forums comments -- which I find really small-minded. Of course, the tiny-minded tiny community rulers -- and it is far from all of them from what I can tell, most are decent -- can enforce their idea of a community and a culture by using such boycotts. And I can and will call them out for this. Of course the forums rules prevent you from naming names, which is actually why it is hard to deter crime and corruption in SL, but that's a long story.

 

 

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On 3/11/2020 at 2:54 PM, Beth Macbain said:

What a bunch of crap. 

I have a job. i have time for SL. I have time to work. I have time to socialize. I have time to see my family. I have time to do whatever the hell I want. Oh, and I have time for Instagram, too.

Because I know how to manage my time. 

I am not retired (I wish!) or disabled or on a fixed income or unemployed or unemployable. 

I'm an introvert, yes, and anyone who wants to argue with me that there is something defective about being being an introvert can bite my introverted butt. 

And congratulations, @lucagrabacr! I can't wait until Friday!

I'll leave it to you to discover what it missing from your statements about your life, but which was contained in my description of the demographics of SL.

They are what they are, and are not disputed by most people who have a lot of customer contact. If someone breaks out in great umbrage about these truths, it may be because the description applies to them, and they think it is pejorative.

There will be more and more people who are sick or on fixed income or unable to get work due to the coronavirus, and there's no point in being in denial about it. I've been in SL for 16 years now, and all that time I had a family, children to take care of, older relatives, full-time jobs and even additional part-time jobs and church and everything else. But I still spent significant time in SL, and I'm likely to spend even more as I get older and am forced to stay home due to my immune disease. I've made a lot of time to study tech, blog about it, go to various tech meet-ups, go on Twitter, Facebook less, and Linked-in least of all. Instagram is that bridge too far that depends on photographs. Maybe because I signed up to follow a lot of Russian news people and great photographers like Max Avdeyev and I see how my kids use it and so on, I think it's just not for me as I don't want to make and post photos to the scrutiny there. On the other hand, if I go for a walkabout, I post them to Twitter where people like them and don't say much. Now that I'm near my Flickr limit and also we don't have the automatic poster, I probably will cease posting there.

Which brings me back on topic: did the Lindens dump the social media function too hastily, given their marketing plans? You need social media for marketing. It doesn't have to be tied to a real identity. There's no question that when you can't easily snap a screenshot and title and post it right in the viewer, you do far less of this. Firestorm manages to keep this going; the Lindens understandably got frustrated with Twitter's constant changes as well as the others, but maybe they need to reconsider.

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1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:
10 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

 

FairreLilette, I understand it's just a suggestion, but it's a suggestion I also make a suggestion about -- that it is not necessary.

According to whom is a suggestion not necessary?  

TinyLand would be a General family related platform which I suggested as something that could compete with Roblox if you read this whole thread not compete with SL.  You cannot have a family platform with an Adult Trazillion XXXXXXXXXXXXX platform.  

I will continue to make suggestions as I please as long as they are within the TOS.  

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On 3/11/2020 at 7:56 PM, Drayke Newall said:

But you don't seem to get the argument. They may be there looking at new clothes etc, but new clothes don't fit the newbie outfits as all clothes these days are made for the major mesh bodies. You say that you only need 1000L$ but this is just so insanely wrong. No new user wants to look like the starter avatars, they all want to look like those that they have seen in the marketing campaigns. Go ask them or just read some of the external out of the SL sphere posts of people that have left.

It on average, for a newbie to look anything like the mesh avatars that are shown in the advertising campaigns, will cost them $50 USD just for the body, hair, skin, head and any other body accessories such as tattoo etc. Then on top of that they have top buy the clothes.

For a new user the spending that kind of money with the possibility they will leave in a month isn't worth the investment and instantly puts a negative thought into the new users mind that this 'game' is to expensive. Sure there are some that stick around for the long haul, though the majority leave cause it is cost prohibitive from the start.

No. Just no. Once again no new user will get premium as they are not sure whether they are going to stay around. Even if they did, to get a decent body like the marketing campaigns they will need months of stipend to actually save enough and by that time they would have left.

Comparing SL new users to WoW is just ridiculous and shows a lack of your understanding on the mentality between gamers and what they would expect in SL. Which is why in my first post I said it is not worthwhile for LL to advertise to the game market unless they change the first experience accordingly.

When a person pays $15 for WoW a month they get an entire game, objective, avatar cusomisation (within theme), ground mounts, flying mounts, all inworld armor and clothes, questing, objectives, hairstyles, guilds, RP communities, chat, adventure, auction house, in world currency is earnt to buy from the AH, a game that is regularly updated with QUALITY updates and things to do etc. I could go on and on. They get all that FOR $15 USD.

On the flip side in Second Life premium gets them what? no full and decent objective driven game, armor or clothes that need to be bought with real money, hairstyles that need to be bought with real money, mounts that need to be bought with real money, communities that need to be found but are no where near what games provide, a marketplace that costs real money, and no way to earn in world currency. In other words they have to spend MORE money over their subscription to 'PLAY' the game. Everything bar the house in the premium model is worthless to a new user and even the house generally is as well due to them then needing to spend even more money just to furnish it.

So no, don't even compare the value of a SL subscription to the value of any subscription model game as you will not win such an argument.

The difference is fortnite is free but they base avatar looks comparable with those that can be bought with cash. The other issue is that a new user doesn't need to buy an entire new avatar to wear those items. It is a simple I like that and so i'll get it.

In SL a new user hyped from the marketing campaign has to update their body from the starter avatars to wear any decent clothes, then from there they have to work out which mesh body they want but find issues that some skins don't work for those bodies so have to be careful and research what skins go on which bodies and which heads go on which bodies and which clothing goes on which bodies. The entire process is 1000's of times more complex than system like Fortnite where they login, select a character then buy outfits that suit that avatar with no ambiguity or thought as to whether it will fit or not.

All users I have talked to and all reviews out of the SL blog shere I have read point to a few things as to why they leave and top of the list are the cost of the 'game', the starter avatars are to different to what they saw and updating them is confusing and expensive, and that it is hard to find something to do as all sims they go to are empty.

So yes it is very much the clothing and avatar issue that is the cause of lack of retention.

You are missing the point again. They want to look as advertised FROM THE START in the base body form and it is extremely difficult to actually buy decent clothes for the starter avatars. It is to much of a complicated process for the new user to have to learn not only the viewer but the complexities of what will work with which body.

Many new users even state that they wasted so much money in buying clothes only to find they didn't fit for the starter avatars or mesh ones as they EXPECT everything to fit (due to every other game or platform being this way).

2500L$ is not enough to get the look the advertisement hyped and as I said before no new user is wiling to INVEST in SL until they know they will like it therefore they leave because they don't look like what was advertised.

Also you have to remember that not everyone lives in the USA. This is a major gripe of mine when I see people saying it only costs x USD. Good for you, however unlike games and many other services like Netflix, WoW,  fortnite etc, which cost $15 (or whatever) per month in another country IN THERE OWN CURRENCY (as they have found statistically by charging the same everywhere they will get more users) LL have refused to do this and so what costs $x for the USA costs far more for other countries. For example it costs an extra $6 in my currency to get the same amount of lindens your $10.75 gets. Your argument will probably be that is only $6 but it all adds up in a budget especially when every other western country in the world has a higher cost of living than the USA. You also must not forget markets change and even now another GFC is looking likely which will severely impact on peoples spending habits.

This has been my experience as well when talking to multiple new users and your quote of what he said is a great example of what I just replied with above.

A technique of arguing that says "you haven't understood me" or "you have no reading comprehension" when what you mean to say is "you keep disagreeing with me" -- because you have presented no compelling facts but only impressions and anecdotes -- is never persuasive.

I had an even longer answer to you but I lost it and now I think it's not worth trying to oppose each point. The fact is, you don't have the information. You have anecdotal stories gained from this or that contact or blog, but you don't have a definitive exit poll of why people leave. Your theory that they leave over the cost of clothing isn't born out by the sheer fact of the enormous expenditures that people DO make for these things. Sale clothing can be just as fancy as expensive clothing -- it's by the same makers. A mesh body is US $4.50 to start; even a very fancy get-up isn't going to be more than the $15 or $20 that people spend without a thought on WoW. And yes, it's worth comparing, even if it's a different demographic (although it does overlap) simply because it shows people will spend online for virtuality if they find it compelling, and it's more about "things to do" and friends than "look".

Not having enough to do or being able to find the things to do is WAY more important than the alleged "inability" to find clothes for the library avatars -- which people don't use for long anyway. And again, your sense of this is anecdotal. I have a lot of years of experience and lots of customers and I simply think this is a greater stock of information than you have. And the reason people leave -- or don't stay -- is most often due to relationships gone wrong, and over not finding friends and things to do, not clothing. I have several newbie helper tutorial and freebie places, I have spent many hours helping new people and also returnees who give up, and come back -- then leave again -- and the lack of things to do -- the demand to create your own fun and interest which is only suitable for some kinds of people -- is the biggest problem. Not "how I look".

You keep  harping on how hard it is to find clothes for the starter avatars. Huh? Who keeps them after a week or two? Who is even trying to do this? In a world where for $4.50 you can by a mesh body, and the latest fashion for again, the price of a latte, and less than not just WoW, but most things online (Hulu, or paid Flickr).

I refused to be shamed and browbeaten because I live in the US -- where much of the early Internet was made and big companies like Google and where SL was created. And that's because it's not the point -- there are plenty of Europeans, Australians, Asians, Russians -- everybody. And they spend money such as they have. You don't like the extra $6 of your currency you have to pay to get the Lindens -- but then you have socialized medicine and low-cost transport in your country, too. So this isn't really a discussion about SL, is it? It's a discussion about socialism versus capitalism and the countries associated with those systems. And that's a debate that I seldom find useful to have on the forums with anonymous people who haven't had the experience I have in fact living and working in foreign countries, learning foreign languages, dealing a lot with the UN, etc. so I simply don't accept this browbeating.

Every other country has a higher cost of living? Yet you have free health care, and have you looked at both the huge cost of health care in the US AND the lack of subsidy for it? And yet poor, sick people like me get on Medicaid if we have low incomes or our medicines are expensive enough. So it isn't the horror Europeans imagine. And even Sweden isn't really Sweden as imagined, you know? So that's why this discussion is pretty pointless. You have a set of beliefs and prejudices that are more related to VAT and your high taxes than anything else, not the real cost of a mesh head outside the library. And to that I can only say, tax less, and live like we do? Ok, I rest my case.

No newbie has to spend US $50 on a mesh body; $5000 Lindens is $18.75 in any event. Don't like these costs? You do not require them to be part of the world. Go and be a Dinkie for a mere $450 Lindens, if it comes to that, and pick up all the wonderful freebies.

Call me when you have a valid sociological survey with a 2,000 or higher level of respondents with geographical diversity and ask them about clothing costs and why people leave SL, and I might believe you.

BTW I run at least polls with avatars, which prevent double voting by the same avatar but in a world of alts can't really be valid. But since most people aren't going to bother to go log on alts to answer some poll, they are fairly interest. Over the years I've asked what is most needed for newbies. And what is needed is not tutorials on building, but JOBS. People like to earn their own money. Jobs is the number one answer. Friends is second. Ask people about what they think of the pods on the Linden highways. On the forums, a minority loves and supports them. On surveys inworld, not so much. Many reply that they think they should be removed and declared spam, or at least put in some limited areas -- and so on. So many things are actually not what you think, and what you see on the forums.

Edited by Prokofy Neva
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2 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

According to whom is a suggestion not necessary?  

TinyLand would be a General family related platform which I suggested as something that could compete with Roblox if you read this whole thread not compete with SL.  You cannot have a family platform with an Adult Trazillion XXXXXXXXXXXXX platform.  

I will continue to make suggestions as I please as long as they are within the TOS.  

Yeah, me, too.

And right off the bat I will note that you are assuming that if someone choses to be a tiny or a Dinkie, they do not want any adult content. I'm someone who is happy not to have any adult content and block it on searches where it is particularly graphic and ugly, even. But the reality is, I know for a fact that people who have Dinkie avatars, and get into the Dinkie events and merchandise, also have adult lives with other costumes or alts. It's rare that people are only one thing in SL. So to set up a separate world on separate servers where you can't fluidly go back and forth among different identities seems like a recipe for failure to me. Of course, anyone can go on Open Sim and create Tinyville if they like. That they don't is about lack of a market and return of costs and lack of activity, really.

There doesn't seem to be an overlap between the child avatars some of who verge on criminal activity (which is why I ban them) and Dinkies, although some sims ban Dinkies as if they were child avatars, and Dinkies get angry calling them prejudiced. If you have had as much experience as I have had in 16 years with child avatars -- who almost always cause trouble of one form or another -- as distinct from tinies/petites/Dinkies, you will get it. But the point is, if you feel that you have to be in a world sequested from adult activity to have Dinkiedom, that's fine, create it and see who shows up. I think it will be a small crowd as the fluidity and freedom of SL regarding identities and being able to change them is a big attraction of SL. And those who ban all small creatures out of bad experience with child avatars, cutting too wide a swathe -- well, they have good reason, and of course in your country, you won't ban anyone over their belief system, right?

I'd also have to question the idea of what "family platform" is, as if there is a market for entire families playing online together in one game. I don't think that's the case. The demographics stay in separate games. I remember when my children were growing up, my rule was simply that they had to play their games and do online socializing on the one computer we had, and then two, in the living room, so that I could watch what they were doing, so that they didn't get into trouble and I more or less knew what was going on. That isn't foolproof, as they have friends' houses they go to and can be exposed to adult and violent content. But you can mitigate it by taking an interest in watching what the kids are watching. That doesn't mean we would sit and play Animal Crossing together, however.

But...As you seem to have an axe to grind here I will leave you to your chopping! Wash your hands!

Edited by Prokofy Neva
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10 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

A technique of arguing that says "you haven't understood me" or "you have no reading comprehension" when what you mean to say is "you keep disagreeing with me" -- because you have presented no compelling facts but only impressions and anecdotes -- is never persuasive.

I had an even longer answer to you but I lost it and now I think it's not worth trying to oppose each point. The fact is, you don't have the information. You have anecdotal stories gained from this or that contact or blog, but you don't have a definitive exit poll of why people leave. Your theory that they leave over the cost of clothing isn't born out by the sheer fact of the enormous expenditures that people DO make for these things. Sale clothing can be just as fancy as expensive clothing -- it's by the same makers. A mesh body is US $4.50 to start; even a very fancy get-up isn't going to be more than the $15 or $20 that people spend without a thought on WoW. And yes, it's worth comparing, even if it's a different demographic (although it does overlap) simply because it shows people will spend online for virtuality if they find it compelling, and it's more about "things to do" and friends than "look".

But you are missing the point. Games offer far more instant fun than SL does. So once again no new person is willing to spend money from the get go until they know whether it is worth while to stay.

10 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Not having enough to do or being able to find the things to do is WAY more important than the alleged "inability" to find clothes for the library avatars -- which people don't use for long anyway. And again, your sense of this is anecdotal. I have a lot of years of experience and lots of customers and I simply think this is a greater stock of information than you have. And the reason people leave -- or don't stay -- is most often due to relationships gone wrong, and over not finding friends and things to do, not clothing. I have several newbie helper tutorial and freebie places, I have spent many hours helping new people and also returnees who give up, and come back -- then leave again -- and the lack of things to do -- the demand to create your own fun and interest which is only suitable for some kinds of people -- is the biggest problem. Not "how I look".

No, no new person is going to leave SL because of a relationship gone wrong. Not finding friends or something to do is precisely why they leave SL as you mention. Now lets break down "things to do". At most if people want to find something to do in SL it is mostly RP communties. Low and behold, you have to buy items aka clothing and appearance to get in theme for these places for new people to find something to do that keeps them in SL. We even have threads in these forums now saying RP communities are asking for Mesh bodies.

What's to say I don't have years of experience? You seem to think 'cause you rent out land you are the be all and end all of experience, sorry to burst your bubble, but I have been there done that, even helped newbies over the years etc and my experience as well as posters in this very thread are very different to your experience. 

10 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

You keep  harping on how hard it is to find clothes for the starter avatars. Huh? Who keeps them after a week or two? Who is even trying to do this? In a world where for $4.50 you can by a mesh body, and the latest fashion for again, the price of a latte, and less than not just WoW, but most things online (Hulu, or paid Flickr).

You say I can buy a mesh body for $4.50 yet further down you claim $5000 lindens or $18.75 is the cost. Make up your mind. Also for a mesh body you need body L$3-5000, head L3-5000, Skin L$300-1200L, hair L$300-1000L. Unless I am really bad at maths, thats a little more than L$5000.

As for starter clothing, I never said no one keeps them for x period. I did say however than without GOOD quality starter outfits that fit all starter avatars it forces people who want to look decent to spend money on the game which at a first look is an instant turn off for new users.

10 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I refused to be shamed and browbeaten because I live in the US -- where much of the early Internet was made and big companies like Google and where SL was created. And that's because it's not the point -- there are plenty of Europeans, Australians, Asians, Russians -- everybody. And they spend money such as they have. You don't like the extra $6 of your currency you have to pay to get the Lindens -- but then you have socialized medicine and low-cost transport in your country, too. So this isn't really a discussion about SL, is it? It's a discussion about socialism versus capitalism and the countries associated with those systems. And that's a debate that I seldom find useful to have on the forums with anonymous people who haven't had the experience I have in fact living and working in foreign countries, learning foreign languages, dealing a lot with the UN, etc. so I simply don't accept this browbeating.

You clearly lack any form of understanding of Free Health Care if you believe other countries don't pay for it. As for low cost of transport, I don't know where to start if you think that is the case.

10 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Every other country has a higher cost of living? Yet you have free health care, and have you looked at both the huge cost of health care in the US AND the lack of subsidy for it? And yet poor, sick people like me get on Medicaid if we have low incomes or our medicines are expensive enough. So it isn't the horror Europeans imagine. And even Sweden isn't really Sweden as imagined, you know? So that's why this discussion is pretty pointless. You have a set of beliefs and prejudices that are more related to VAT and your high taxes than anything else, not the real cost of a mesh head outside the library. And to that I can only say, tax less, and live like we do? Ok, I rest my case.

Once again free health care isn't free. Your argument is lower taxes, yet seem to not understand how 'free' health care works. Oh dear sounds like your greater than everyone else 'experience' in living in other countries isn't that great after all. Anyway this is all off topic.

10 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

No newbie has to spend US $50 on a mesh body; $5000 Lindens is $18.75 in any event. Don't like these costs? You do not require them to be part of the world. Go and be a Dinkie for a mere $450 Lindens, if it comes to that, and pick up all the wonderful freebies.

No they don't have to spend $50. No one has argued that the should. That said the marketing offered gives the impression that those mesh bodies looks are what you get on sign up only to find that the hype or expectation isn't met on sign up. People don't leave cause they don't want to spend money, people leave because the advertisement of the LOOK of the ENTIRETY of SL from the start is different to what's advertised. To get the same experience as advertised one needs to spend money which new users don't want to do until they know they will stay. You are hooked on the wrong point. It has nothing to do with not being willing to spend money in sl.

10 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Call me when you have a valid sociological survey with a 2,000 or higher level of respondents with geographical diversity and ask them about clothing costs and why people leave SL, and I might believe you.

Where is yours that proves the opposite.

10 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

BTW I run at least polls with avatars, which prevent double voting by the same avatar but in a world of alts can't really be valid. But since most people aren't going to bother to go log on alts to answer some poll, they are fairly interest. Over the years I've asked what is most needed for newbies. And what is needed is not tutorials on building, but JOBS. People like to earn their own money. Jobs is the number one answer. Friends is second. Ask people about what they think of the pods on the Linden highways. On the forums, a minority loves and supports them. On surveys inworld, not so much. Many reply that they think they should be removed and declared spam, or at least put in some limited areas -- and so on. So many things are actually not what you think, and what you see on the forums.

Good for you. You run polls that have no decreeable way to determine who is new and therefore they are flawed polls. Its certainly funny how you mention jobs are what most of your 'polls' say is needed so they can earn money inworld, but somehow are of the belief that spending RL money on SL isn't a concern to new users in SL.

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On 3/10/2020 at 10:20 PM, Brett Linden said:

I see mobile mentioned a few times - I'm hoping that we can have a dedicated "Lab Gab" community chat about mobile in the near future once we have more to publicly say about our in-development mobile client...

Shudda collaborated with Lumiya imho. It was awesome. Not to mention already developed, already tested, already android, and already out there.

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3 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

But you are missing the point. Games offer far more instant fun than SL does. So once again no new person is willing to spend money from the get go until they know whether it is worth while to stay.

No, no new person is going to leave SL because of a relationship gone wrong. Not finding friends or something to do is precisely why they leave SL as you mention. Now lets break down "things to do". At most if people want to find something to do in SL it is mostly RP communties. Low and behold, you have to buy items aka clothing and appearance to get in theme for these places for new people to find something to do that keeps them in SL. We even have threads in these forums now saying RP communities are asking for Mesh bodies.

What's to say I don't have years of experience? You seem to think 'cause you rent out land you are the be all and end all of experience, sorry to burst your bubble, but I have been there done that, even helped newbies over the years etc and my experience as well as posters in this very thread are very different to your experience. 

You say I can buy a mesh body for $4.50 yet further down you claim $5000 lindens or $18.75 is the cost. Make up your mind. Also for a mesh body you need body L$3-5000, head L3-5000, Skin L$300-1200L, hair L$300-1000L. Unless I am really bad at maths, thats a little more than L$5000.

As for starter clothing, I never said no one keeps them for x period. I did say however than without GOOD quality starter outfits that fit all starter avatars it forces people who want to look decent to spend money on the game which at a first look is an instant turn off for new users.

You clearly lack any form of understanding of Free Health Care if you believe other countries don't pay for it. As for low cost of transport, I don't know where to start if you think that is the case.

Once again free health care isn't free. Your argument is lower taxes, yet seem to not understand how 'free' health care works. Oh dear sounds like your greater than everyone else 'experience' in living in other countries isn't that great after all. Anyway this is all off topic.

No they don't have to spend $50. No one has argued that the should. That said the marketing offered gives the impression that those mesh bodies looks are what you get on sign up only to find that the hype or expectation isn't met on sign up. People don't leave cause they don't want to spend money, people leave because the advertisement of the LOOK of the ENTIRETY of SL from the start is different to what's advertised. To get the same experience as advertised one needs to spend money which new users don't want to do until they know they will stay. You are hooked on the wrong point. It has nothing to do with not being willing to spend money in sl.

Where is yours that proves the opposite.

Good for you. You run polls that have no decreeable way to determine who is new and therefore they are flawed polls. Its certainly funny how you mention jobs are what most of your 'polls' say is needed so they can earn money inworld, but somehow are of the belief that spending RL money on SL isn't a concern to new users in SL.

Um, it's not that I am "missing the point" -- it's that I have a different opinion than you do based on more experience. Try to hear it.

We were talking overall about retention in general originally, so describing why people leave who have been here awhile is certain valid. And "relationship gone wrong" can be something that happens within 48 hours, when, oh, a newbie discovers their girlfriend is actually a man in RL. That sort of thing.

"Something to do" in SL is not at all only RP communities; that's not even the majority. "Something to do" can be live music, a NASA exhibit, exploring, etc. Most people are norms and find RP too involved -- not expensive, but too involved. But some people love it and have worked up extensive and deep legends and content and enjoy it and have many deep, rewarding friendships and lovers from it. It's not for the newbie necessarily -- but the reason why Gor can snare so many newbies is that they have a plan to get people and induct them, and the average club doesn't even have a tenth as much. None of them hang out a sign, "Welcome newbies! Free shirt" -- for example.

Um, "which is it"? The point is there is a RANGE. You can spend as little as $1250 on a mesh body, and by a good name brand, or go up higher, and spend $5000 or more. I don't need to "make up my mind" about a DIVERSE market in which many people, newbies included, find their way.

I suspect your rage about the lack of library content is probably not curable, but it's a good thing most people don't suffer from that rage.

Have you ever lived in a foreign country? I've lived in quite a few. Starting with Canada, "Friendly, Foreign, and Near," where I went to university, and nearly died in the socialized health care system. And yes, you pay for it, and no, not only in taxes, but there can be fees involved all through it. I suppose the biggest fee is when you take that bus to Maine to get your medical care down there, and not for cheap, because there isn't a line (or wasn't, before the virus).

Newbies are happy to spend money. It never pays to infantalize and dumb down and poor down newbies as if they are some strange breed of being who has never been to Biloxi to see the races. Or course they have. Even I am amazed when people two weeks old come and spend the equivalent of $10 US for a month of my rentals, but they do. There is a certain demographic of newbie that is as you describe, but SL would be a dust bowl if that were the norm. You also seem short on solutions. You want the Lindens to solicit and pay for people to put content in the library. Why? That's what the...er...free market does, and probably at a lower cost, as those content makers the Lindens hire have to be paid more than "little dressmakers" in SL. 

You seem to find it hard to hold complexities in your head. Yes, jobs is the one thing people wish there were -- so they could make back their cost. But yes, they also spend money. Content makers make $450 million US per year from SL. That's quite a phenomenon that no other social media or game in the world can boast of.

Let me suggest that the welcome areas that I keep filled with content and help areas are mainly filled with newbies -- because I talk to them and see their ages. And they are mainly the ones filling out the polls. Which is why the question "Do you buy gatchas" can even have the answer "What is a gatcha". Sure, some people return for years to the place they first landed. But it doesn't matter. You don't have data -- period. I have some data but with flawed conditions (alts, not-newbies). The real people with the data who know why 9 out of 10 people don't stick aren't telling us. But even their A/B tests are flawed in that they skew to their own ideologies as nerds and "professional marketers". So if somebody bails after finding nothing but a building tutorial and a game involving driving around a vehicle and crushing rats (the newbie landing experience organized by the Lindens for a time), they might not understand that their very set-up is the problem. 

This is why the welcome areas should have billboards with ads that take people to clubs, events, rentals. Of course those with either an aversion to capitalism or a loathing of what they view as low culture -- or both -- will not see this.

I have yet to hear any convincing arguments or facts so I'll see myself out, you can have the last word.

 

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Here's some polls I have which are mainly answered by newbies because they are at infohubs. Not all of them, but many of them. It only allows one vote per avatar, but of course with the existence of alts and even what you might call "Family Voting," the results are not pristine. Even so, it's more than what most people collect:

Some of my polls don't have very many answers -- but what are polls anyway? Devices to measure the opinion of everyone who likes to answer a survey -- not an ACTUAL measure of opinion LOL.

Here it is:


Baileya:

3950 Ballots (This has run probably 10 years?)

How Can Newbie Experience Be Improved?

Simplify Orientation Island 452
Have a Buddy System 581
Provide Jobs to Newbies 1797
Have Paid Help-Desk 24/7 258
Suggest Places to Visit 862

So the "Jobs" have it and interestingly, long before there was a Destination recommendation section,

this was getting higher votes and still has the second most high.

 

In Ross:

Do you like Second Life
185 votes since 6/27/2017

I just got here
54 votes
29%

Not it's too hard
9 votes
5%

Not it's boring
7 votes
4%

I used to buy my friends are gone
27 votes
15%

Yes it's ok but needs improvement
24 votes
13#

Yes I love it!
64 votes
35%

 

I hope to find a voter than lets you have more than one answer (not more than one avatar vote) and I will ask about clothing and the library.

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9 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Yeah, me, too.

And right off the bat I will note that you are assuming that if someone choses to be a tiny or a Dinkie, they do not want any adult content. I'm someone who is happy not to have any adult content and block it on searches where it is particularly graphic and ugly, even. But the reality is, I know for a fact that people who have Dinkie avatars, and get into the Dinkie events and merchandise, also have adult lives with other costumes or alts. It's rare that people are only one thing in SL. So to set up a separate world on separate servers where you can't fluidly go back and forth among different identities seems like a recipe for failure to me. Of course, anyone can go on Open Sim and create Tinyville if they like. That they don't is about lack of a market and return of costs and lack of activity, really.

There doesn't seem to be an overlap between the child avatars some of who verge on criminal activity (which is why I ban them) and Dinkies, although some sims ban Dinkies as if they were child avatars, and Dinkies get angry calling them prejudiced. If you have had as much experience as I have had in 16 years with child avatars -- who almost always cause trouble of one form or another -- as distinct from tinies/petites/Dinkies, you will get it. But the point is, if you feel that you have to be in a world sequested from adult activity to have Dinkiedom, that's fine, create it and see who shows up. I think it will be a small crowd as the fluidity and freedom of SL regarding identities and being able to change them is a big attraction of SL. And those who ban all small creatures out of bad experience with child avatars, cutting too wide a swathe -- well, they have good reason, and of course in your country, you won't ban anyone over their belief system, right?

I'd also have to question the idea of what "family platform" is, as if there is a market for entire families playing online together in one game. I don't think that's the case. The demographics stay in separate games. I remember when my children were growing up, my rule was simply that they had to play their games and do online socializing on the one computer we had, and then two, in the living room, so that I could watch what they were doing, so that they didn't get into trouble and I more or less knew what was going on. That isn't foolproof, as they have friends' houses they go to and can be exposed to adult and violent content. But you can mitigate it by taking an interest in watching what the kids are watching. That doesn't mean we would sit and play Animal Crossing together, however.

But...As you seem to have an axe to grind here I will leave you to your chopping! Wash your hands!

No, Prokfy, you are assuming things about me.  You don't know me.

And, I have no axe to grind.

The Dinkies and other tiny avatars are asexual that does not mean I assume people do not have alts.  As a matter of fact my dearest friend introduced her partner to me.  I know them both and some of their alts too.

Tinies and Dinkies are not child avatars so why are you even bringing it up? 

All the components for TinyLand are here in SL.  It's brilliant period.  

If LL wants to look into it...then LL wants to look into it.  

Plus, it's a way to interact with people without all the high triangle mesh avatars...."the biggies"...the biggies are too lag-some plus in TinyLand you get to dance with dancing flowers and it's adorable.  Just so much of it is adorable.  Even making the tinies into rl dolls could be a huge market (a fortune).

 

Edited by FairreLilette
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17 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

ZOINKS! It's happening now! Tune in!

 

I wanted to watch this today, but instead got mandated into a freakin 2 hour technical meeting. No way to listen to 2 things at once.  I'll just have to catch it not-live later today.

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
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On 3/13/2020 at 10:04 AM, FairreLilette said:

No, Prokfy, you are assuming things about me.  You don't know me.

And, I have no axe to grind.

The Dinkies and other tiny avatars are asexual that does not mean I assume people do not have alts.  As a matter of fact my dearest friend introduced her partner to me.  I know them both and some of their alts too.

Tinies and Dinkies are not child avatars so why are you even bringing it up? 

All the components for TinyLand are here in SL.  It's brilliant period.  

If LL wants to look into it...then LL wants to look into it.  

Plus, it's a way to interact with people without all the high triangle mesh avatars...."the biggies"...the biggies are too lag-some plus in TinyLand you get to dance with dancing flowers and it's adorable.  Just so much of it is adorable.  Even making the tinies into rl dolls could be a huge market (a fortune).

 

I suppose your animosity toward me preceded this discussion because of the way you have reacted to literally one line that suggested "Tinyland" is not a viable project for LL in a marketing sense -- and a line that came after agreeding with your point that "creator" is not just a literal maker or scripter but also a decorator. You could have said, "Thanks for buying my Dinkie wares, Prokofy, on the MP, and I'm glad you're interested in tinies". No, instead, a line that merely states an opinion based on fact leads to round after round and the really ineffective argument "you don't know me" -- ineffective because nobody knows anybody in SL, everyone has a fictitious avatar to some level or another, so it is what it is.

I don't perceive Dinkies as "child avatars" and you don't, but it doesn't matter. It was in *the Dinkie discussion group itself* that I first heard complaints of Dinkies being banned "as child avatars". So others see tinies of any type as child avatars, and they aren't wrong to do so, quite frankly, so there's little you can do about it. Child avatars might have a better reception if they didn't try to push the envelop (remember how they landed at the opening of Zindra and demanded the right to be present on this *adult* content *devoted to public sex*? Not much more you need to cite than *that*, but scads of bad experience, with griefing also notable, leads to this attitude.

Now to return to the topic of LL's marketing. Would LL make a stand-alone world, with its own accounts, log-ins, monetary system, engine, etc. etc. I think you don't to be a rocket scientist, after Sansar has just been announced on the block and the staff fired, to conclude, noooo, the Lindens are not going to be creating any stand-alone worlds which they would create to give you a controlled Dinkie/tiny/etc experience.

Would LL make a separate *continent* like Nautilus or Bellissaria, devoted to tinies? Well, maybe, but I also think it's not likely. Remember Elderglen? I do, because I lived there for some time. I liked the content there, I liked the house styles, I  played the game with the fairy jars, I made a wizard house open to the public with various magic things shown. There were elves and fairies, too of course there. But it was empty, because that's not what most people wanted. Most people are norms, and they don't want to RP anything except "human norm". Sure, fairies or wizards are different than Tinies. Still, it's an experience you can use as a yardstick to predict the likelihood of LL doing this.

If anything, they are continuing to produce "norm" after "norm" stuff -- houseboats, Victorian homes, campers, and now log homes. I don't think hobbit caves or Dinkie miniature abodes are likely to come because it's too much a niche. Only the maker of the original Dinkie avatar knows how many she has sold -- it's got to be thousands and thousands, but not half a million.

And why would you want the Lindens to take over this thriving, creative niche?! Here Etheria Parrot, the Dinkie creator has made a remarkable avatar that isn't too "cute" and that has "cat" but avoids some of the cliches.

The eyes are very different, not just the cliche "cute" wide eyes of an animal cartoon or child. Those eyes  create expressions which seem to range from "a little grumpy from being awoken too early from my nap" to "haunted at the things I saw in trench warfare at the Somme" -- but that's just it, it's a range, and like the expression-free dolls of the Montessori schools that are supposed to stimulate imagination rather than killing it (as Barbies are supposed to do), the Dinkie eyes enable people to have a wide range with it, and are very compelling. Only God can make a tree, and the Lindens make pretty good trees (some continue to hold up well 16 years later), but only a resident -- not a Linden -- can make a Dinkie, you know? Truly.

The Dinkie thing has spawned ENORMOUS numbers of clothes, scenes, props -- the freebies made by Veloce are bar none, the best, most intricate and well-working interactive freebies of any kind from any group I've seen.

WHY would you want the Lindens to co-opt this??? Tinyland exists already. There are entire communities and shopping centers just for tinies. It just boggles the mind while you would want the Lindens to capture this and manage it for you -- which inevitably would end up homogenizing it and flattening it and locking some out.

Why would you, as a creator who makes and sells things for Dinkies, want the Lindens to take over this niche? Do you believe it would bring you more customers?

The Lindens do what they want, of course, and who knows, Patch, who has Neko ears (elf ears? some kind of ears) may lean toward the Dinkie/tiny/woodland creatures for all we know. But I think it's unlikely, and not even advisable.

If you want a Tinyland, buy 10 sims and run them, like Mieville does. it's a lot of work, it requires a lot of sacrifice, imagination, diplomacy and it's fragile as we have seen. One person dies or one person is sick -- it suffers. Even so, there is a group that rallies, it has a spirit, activities, content -- it's a model for such niche communities. (BTW there are a lot of tinies in Mieville it seems, which has a Steampunk theme). So before getting the Lindens to do X community, it would be good to do it yourself on 10 sims, with your friends who share your views. Lock out who you want; block who you want; do what you want. You don't need the Lindens for this.

Should there be yet another option, where the Lindens helps such themed RP communities, or "communities of purpose" of any kind, with a more hands-off but helpful means, as they do with RL educators by giving them non-profit tax-free rates? (Because they have RL tax-free papers from authorities). Just as they give 10% extra land to use in a group as a bonus to land contributions to a group, shouldn't they do something extra like that to help RP survive?

I don't know what such a thing would be -- making all texture uploads only 5L instead of 10? Adding more prims? If they did that, they would first get outrage from those who felt this was more favoritism, and they'd get deluged by groups who aren't really a dedicated theme but just want free stuff.

And remember, this isn't about getting the Lindens to do more and pay more themselves. It's about them MARKETING and getting more users. So how does making the land you'd like to see do that? I might like them to make Buryat Mongolia, but I know that I -- and the only real Mongolian that I have found in SL -- are probably going to like it, plus the odd dragon or yurt camper. So I make it myself, you know?

So what this comes back to is your notion that parents want an Animal Crossing kind of game that they play "after hours" when the kids are in bed.

And this is based on what kind of data or even anecdotal impression? I don't think the demographics cross. There are those Moms who play WoW and swear like sailors and beat all the bosses, but they are a minority. I do see husbands and wives plus the occasional child playing Free Sims Online -- the Sims Online always had that interesting phenomenon of actual families in RL, who came from playing the offline game to playing online. The top traffic FSO houses are often actual Mom & Pop shops who actual find the mindless repetitiveness of the Sims to be soothing.

I don't think there's a basis to market to "families" or "mom and dad after hours but still for kids" with SL. 

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Edited by Prokofy Neva
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