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LilithServil

"Flexi Bento" tails-- why hasn't it been done?

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Apologies if this is in the wrong forum but  I'm shocked I haven't seen anything like this yet.

 

Is there any particular reason there aren't any hybrids of flexi and bento for tails yet? I've tried using bento tail animators with a tail attached to the Tail Base bone, but it seems there needs to be some sort of actual "tail base" mesh to get  things to properly align-- trying to attach a flexi tail to the tail base slot either animates the tail PERFECTLY... but floating a foot away from your body, or animates the tail in a way where the part that'd normally be attached to a fixed point to shift across your spine.

 

It seems there would absolutely be a way to remedy this, however, with a hybrid tail that uses a mesh base that'd end in the same cone shape with alpha blending (or masking depending on your preference) to attach to a flexi attachment.

 

Essentially < being the bento/mesh base, and = being the flexi prims:

<=========

Has anyone tried anything similar yet? I've seen some bento tails with a flexi tuft at the end, but none that are the other way around-- mesh base with the rest being flexi.

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There ARE flexi tails, seen them on some furries or demon avis. My partner has a huge chinese dragon where the tail moves like a flexi. 

You just have to really look hard for it on MP maybe, since most use bento animated bones for tails so it hides the flexi tails (or I would assume so).

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4 hours ago, Muiregwen said:

There ARE flexi tails, seen them on some furries or demon avis. My partner has a huge chinese dragon where the tail moves like a flexi. 

You just have to really look hard for it on MP maybe, since most use bento animated bones for tails so it hides the flexi tails (or I would assume so).

You should ask your partner what kind of tail, because I've never seen any kind of bento/flexi tail hybrid. All I want is a big ol fluffy flexi tail that I can have move about with a bento tail hud and actual tail bone animations instead of a janky rotate script. x_x

As I said above, I've tried to make my own flexi tail and slap it onto the tail base bone but it doesn't quite work without swaying "inside" the body... I'll have to get a gif sometime. The only feasible way I could see something like that working is if there was a mesh "tail base" that blended seamlessly with the flexi attach point.

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We need rag doll physics and colliders if you don't want worn hair, loose clothing or tails to pass through the body, something like most other MMOs use, heh.

Edited by Lucia Nightfire
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2 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

We need rag doll physics and colliders if you don't want worn hair, loose clothing or tails to pass through the body, something like most other MMOs use, heh.

Not what I'm talking about though?

I'm talking  about a flexi tail, made of flexi prims, that's attached to the Tail Base bento bone on the SL skeleton.

 

Trying to attach a flexi tail to that bone right now causes the tail to... Let me get a gif, actually. I don't know how to word it and it's making me feel stupid...

https://gyazo.com/78b361101f7781111a780e002119f13b

+

https://gyazo.com/635f56033dc9702fcd1b9e069a64acae

The part of the tail that meets the spine tilts. It's not like a flexi tail with a rot script where it rotates AT the connecting point/root prim where the script is. The bento bone, or at least the part of the bone that dictates where the movement is, is too far out from the spine. Any flexi tail you try to use is going to do this. 

Instead of rotating like so:  http://prntscr.com/r3y7ry

It rotates like...  http://prntscr.com/r3y87m

The solution would be a bento mesh that's long enough to give a proper attachment point but also short enough that the flexi tail attaches directly on the bone joint so it doesn't have that \ | / kind of movement. Like this diagram where the black would be the mesh and the red would be the typical flexi tail prim layout. http://prntscr.com/r3y97y

Edited by LilithServil

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You don't wear flexi tails on the tail base attach point, you wear them on the pelvis attach point as after all, they were designed pre-bento.

Edited by Lucia Nightfire

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Try searching for "animesh tail" instead,  I got quite a few promising results on the first 2 pages alone...

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I think I get what they mean.

A mesh base that is ossibly animated using the bento tail bones as the attachment point or perhaps as above, the pelvis, with flexi fluff down the rest from that mesh attachment, correct? That specifically hasn't been done, just either straight bento, animesh, or flexi tails.

You CAN make a mixture of the two, such as mesh hair with flexi prims attached for 'movement' has been done. So it is doable.

 

EDIT: Ooooh, nvm what I said previously. Yeah, flexi tail, as stated, was prebento, so it isn't meant to be attached to the bento tail bone and animated like bento. So I don't think its going to work that well, unfortunately... I mean... Can always try a THIN (Very thin) mesh animated and attached to the tail bone and the thin mesh being covered by flexi prims.

Edited by Muiregwen

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7 hours ago, Muiregwen said:

I think I get what they mean.

A mesh base that is ossibly animated using the bento tail bones as the attachment point or perhaps as above, the pelvis, with flexi fluff down the rest from that mesh attachment, correct? That specifically hasn't been done, just either straight bento, animesh, or flexi tails.

You CAN make a mixture of the two, such as mesh hair with flexi prims attached for 'movement' has been done. So it is doable.

 

EDIT: Ooooh, nvm what I said previously. Yeah, flexi tail, as stated, was prebento, so it isn't meant to be attached to the bento tail bone and animated like bento. So I don't think its going to work that well, unfortunately... I mean... Can always try a THIN (Very thin) mesh animated and attached to the tail bone and the thin mesh being covered by flexi prims.

No no, you were right the first time LOL.

I want a mesh base that essentially hides the fact that the tail swivels in the body instead of being directly connected. If done correctly,  that'd also allow for the tail to properly be able to be lifted up, moved down, etc with one of the M.O.R tail animators without the flexi prim base going through  the body in weird spots. It'd still be going through, of  course, just hidden by a mesh base that'd make it look like it's more properly connected.

 

I know flexi tails are pre-bento, I'm just shocked no one has tried to do this to kind of bridge the gap? I don't want the entire tail to be animated like bento-- I know that's not feasible lol. I just want to be able to use bento to get that nice smooth wagging effect instead of a jerky rotation script like most old flexi tails have. I know I have a flexi tail that's kind of jerryrigged to use an old TWI hud to be able to lift and lower the tail, but it's so script heavy that it's not actually feasible to use in public.

The latter idea there with a very thin mesh animated and being covered by flexi prims there definitely wouldn't work because the flexies wouldn't move with the rest of the bento tail properly-- which is why I instead would want a stubby cone that has the same general "look" as a flexi tail piece (ending in a fur-fade like traditional flexies are textured) that hides the awkwardness of the flexi prims moving in weird ways when attached to the tail bone.

 

I guess semi-flexi tails are what I'm trying to describe? If you look at any avatar with a semi-flexi, like the Crux or the KZK v2 Sergal, it's a solid prim base with a flexi about a foot down from the base. That, but bento, so that the tail can be properly hooked up to the tail bone instead of the pelvis.

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Weird how confused a lot of people seem by the description. I felt like it was simple enough, unless I too just think I got it.

You want to use bento animations to move the tail attachment point.

On that point, you want a flexi prim because it can react physically to gravity and motion.

Only problem is the offset of the attachment point, which is controlled by the bento animations of different tails, making them not always compatible with non-rigged objects.

Totally doable. Not many have done it. More people should do it. Yeah?

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3 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Weird how confused a lot of people seem by the description. I felt like it was simple enough, unless I too just think I got it.

You want to use bento animations to move the tail attachment point.

On that point, you want a flexi prim because it can react physically to gravity and motion.

Only problem is the offset of the attachment point, which is controlled by the bento animations of different tails, making them not always compatible with non-rigged objects.

Totally doable. Not many have done it. More people should do it. Yeah?

 

Exactly!!! You got exactly what I was trying to convey. I like having a convenient clickable menu to smoothly move the attachment point around instead of using a tail script that just jiggles it randomly. Because with bento anims, you can actually choose speeds and such of the wag, or if you want it static, etc. with animations instead of heavy scripting.

The attachment point isn't directly where the tail meets the spine with how the tail anim rigs are set  up. They're jutting out so trying to actually have the tail attach at the spine makes it move strangely instead of pivoting at the base of the body, essentially. Thus... a bento mesh base would solve the issue there.

It's doable but the thing is NO ONE has done it. It seems like such an easy way to be able to use old flexi tails instead of everything being "bento bento bento animesh animesh animesh". I love my bento tails because of the interesting shapes they can have that you can't do with flexi, but otherwise they're too stiff and immobile for my tastes. It's such a simple solution yet no one's thought to make a nice bento "tail cap" you can use flexies with. x_x

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2 hours ago, LilithServil said:

Exactly!!! You got exactly what I was trying to convey. I like having a convenient clickable menu to smoothly move the attachment point around instead of using a tail script that just jiggles it randomly. Because with bento anims, you can actually choose speeds and such of the wag, or if you want it static, etc. with animations instead of heavy scripting.

The attachment point isn't directly where the tail meets the spine with how the tail anim rigs are set  up. They're jutting out so trying to actually have the tail attach at the spine makes it move strangely instead of pivoting at the base of the body, essentially. Thus... a bento mesh base would solve the issue there.

It's doable but the thing is NO ONE has done it. It seems like such an easy way to be able to use old flexi tails instead of everything being "bento bento bento animesh animesh animesh". I love my bento tails because of the interesting shapes they can have that you can't do with flexi, but otherwise they're too stiff and immobile for my tastes. It's such a simple solution yet no one's thought to make a nice bento "tail cap" you can use flexies with. x_x

Couple things:

You can adjust speed and such of the wag with scripts too, but people are lazy and don't tend to make them adjustable. But yeah, scripted wag (changing rotation) is both jerky and subject to script lag.

You won't need mesh to fix any issues though. Animations are what control how and where the bone moves, meaning all you need is a bento animation to adjust the exact position of the tail "base," even if the tail is purely made out of prims.

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2 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Couple things:

You can adjust speed and such of the wag with scripts too, but people are lazy and don't tend to make them adjustable. But yeah, scripted wag (changing rotation) is both jerky and subject to script lag.

You won't need mesh to fix any issues though. Animations are what control how and where the bone moves, meaning all you need is a bento animation to adjust the exact position of the tail "base," even if the tail is purely made out of prims.

No, you'd still need a mesh base to make it look... decent.

I posted some gyazo gifs a couple posts above. As-is the tail shifts "through" the spine because the attachment point of the bento bone is too far from the body to reach normally, which means pushing the tail closer to the body to actually connect means the pivot point ends up being further up the tail base than it "should" be. Which is why a mesh base would remedy that.

Also using the M.O.R bento tail animators (the most commonly used ones) means the tail completely detaches from the body upon using the turning animation, or changing to certain lower wag states because of the pivot point not being directly against the spine.

Both of which a mesh base would hide.

 

I've tried making my own test animation to see if it was just the particular animation set because I could easily just make some nice wags that'd suit what I want, but the problem is actually how the bento bones sit on the SL skeleton.

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2 hours ago, LilithServil said:

It's doable but the thing is NO ONE has done it

the only way I know how to do this so it looks ok, is attach the bento mesh tail part to Tail Base, and attach the flex prim part to Tail Tip 

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9 minutes ago, LilithServil said:

No, you'd still need a mesh base to make it look... decent.

I posted some gyazo gifs a couple posts above. As-is the tail shifts "through" the spine because the attachment point of the bento bone is too far from the body to reach normally, which means pushing the tail closer to the body to actually connect means the pivot point ends up being further up the tail base than it "should" be. Which is why a mesh base would remedy that.

Also using the M.O.R bento tail animators (the most commonly used ones) means the tail completely detaches from the body upon using the turning animation, or changing to certain lower wag states because of the pivot point not being directly against the spine.

Both of which a mesh base would hide.

I've tried making my own test animation to see if it was just the particular animation set because I could easily just make some nice wags that'd suit what I want, but the problem is actually how the bento bones sit on the SL skeleton.

Yes, I have seen the screenshots and I completely understand the problem you're describing.

What I'm saying that using someone else's animations isn't going to help because the mesh those animations are made for is rigged in a specific way.. not with unrigged stuff in mind.

Making your own animations is the right solution to get rid of the weird offset. That way you can move the pivot point up to the spine so that the tail moves like this:

45c5dc9e91.png

Since you haven't specified; if you're talking about making a rigged tail base, that would work too but it'd be less universal if you wanted to use the same avatar across many different avatars, as you'd need to re-rig the base for each one (and it wouldn't work for new bodies or ones you aren't aware of). Instead you could just make a small set of the tail animations with different offsets from the spine to account for different shapes.

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5 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Yes, I have seen the screenshots and I completely understand the problem you're describing.

What I'm saying that using someone else's animations isn't going to help because the mesh those animations are made for is rigged in a specific way.. not with unrigged stuff in mind.

Making your own animations is the right solution to get rid of the weird offset. That way you can move the pivot point up to the spine so that the tail moves like this:

45c5dc9e91.png

Since you haven't specified; if you're talking about making a rigged tail base, that would work too but it'd be less universal if you wanted to use the same avatar across many different avatars, as you'd need to re-rig the base for each one (and it wouldn't work for new bodies or ones you aren't aware of). Instead you could just make a small set of the tail animations with different offsets from the spine to account for different shapes.

 

I've already said that I tried to make my own animations and it didn't help the issue. :s

 

How would making a rigged tail base be less universal if you want to use it across different avatars? x_x  I'm able to use the M.O.R Eastern Dragon tail, for example, on about 10 different bodies with no issue. How would a rigged tail base to cover up the flexi prim swivel be any different, besides being shorter, stubbier, and having the same general texturing at the tip to "blend" in with the flexi tail?

 

Like, I know this could probably be done really easily but it seems like the only solutions are x100 more complicated than they need to be?

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This sounds like a project for my day off work tomorrow. I'll have a play around and see if I can get anything to work...

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On 2/19/2020 at 3:48 AM, LilithServil said:

 

I've already said that I tried to make my own animations and it didn't help the issue. :s

 

How would making a rigged tail base be less universal if you want to use it across different avatars? x_x  I'm able to use the M.O.R Eastern Dragon tail, for example, on about 10 different bodies with no issue. How would a rigged tail base to cover up the flexi prim swivel be any different, besides being shorter, stubbier, and having the same general texturing at the tip to "blend" in with the flexi tail?

 

Like, I know this could probably be done really easily but it seems like the only solutions are x100 more complicated than they need to be?

I don't know how it'd be less universal as they had said, considering all bodies have the same exact skeleton. The only difference is scale/sliders and WHERE it is rigged. Development Kit/Workbench skeletons in Blender/Maya are different, yes, depending if its a fitmesh skeleton, bento skeleton, etc, etc... It just needs the basic/mandatory bones for it to ACTUALLY be weighted and rigged. For static/unrigged, it doesn't matter whatsoever, you just have to use the attachment point and move it around in edit mode.

For your animation problem, I think you, or whoever, that rigged and animated it.. is using the first tailbone. The one closest to the butt/pelvic bones. If you leave that bone alone and animate the rest of that tailbone, you should have no issue with the animation and that sort of movement happening right there.

You could try to continue the stubby mesh, but it would have to be a bit longer to be weighted to the second closest to the body tail bone so there would be some movement.

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10 hours ago, Muiregwen said:

For your animation problem, I think you, or whoever, that rigged and animated it.. is using the first tailbone. The one closest to the butt/pelvic bones. If you leave that bone alone and animate the rest of that tailbone, you should have no issue with the animation and that sort of movement happening right there.

You could try to continue the stubby mesh, but it would have to be a bit longer to be weighted to the second closest to the body tail bone so there would be some movement.

But the only options to attach something unrigged to the bento tail bones are "tail base" and "tail tip"? You HAVE to use the first tailbone if you want an unrigged item to move, hence the following issues. I just want a flexi tail to wag smoothly instead of being pivoted around with a script, but it really doesn't seem doable without some sort of "base" to connect it to.

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7 minutes ago, LilithServil said:

But the only options to attach something unrigged to the bento tail bones are "tail base" and "tail tip"? You HAVE to use the first tailbone if you want an unrigged item to move, hence the following issues. I just want a flexi tail to wag smoothly instead of being pivoted around with a script, but it really doesn't seem doable without some sort of "base" to connect it to.

this is why is difficult to do

a thing that has been asked for from Linden is a capability to attach an object to a bone.  Being able to do this opens up all kinds of new garments and accessories. No doubt the Odd Linden at times has thought about how this might be done. It would tho require some major dev time to do

the alternative is flex mesh. Which provides a whole lot more capabilities for creatives than would bone attachments. So hopefully one day Linden might give us this

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1 minute ago, Mollymews said:

this is why is difficult to do

a thing that has been asked for from Linden is a capability to attach an object to a bone.  Being able to do this opens up all kinds of new garments and accessories. No doubt the Odd Linden at times has thought about how this might be done. It would tho require some major dev time to do

the alternative is flex mesh. Which provides a whole lot more capabilities for creatives than would bone attachments. So hopefully one day Linden might give us this

The thing is it wouldn't difficult to do if someone just made a little stub tail that was short enough to serve as a base but long enough that the flexi tail would be able to connect at a point that wouldn't cause the weird shifting animation to occur.

 

That's something that'd be doable as-is and not something that'd require something that drastic. It's just that no one has attempted it that I've been able to see.

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13 minutes ago, LilithServil said:

That's something that'd be doable as-is and not something that'd require something that drastic. It's just that no one has attempted it that I've been able to see.

you could be right.  I looked up the wiki and it seems that the Tail Tip attachment point is related to .dae bone mTail6

if mTail6 is moved in to be the end of the tail stub, and the in-between bones 2 to 5 are moved proportionately then maybe it will work ok.  Tail in two parts. Stub attached to Tail Base. Flex attached to Tail Tip

if somebody made a tail stub like this, I would buy it

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