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Senet Wylder

BoM Layer ???????????

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Soooo BoM I understand.

 

What I am curious about is why a BoM skin would be on a tattoo layer as opposed to a skin layer? Since a tattoo layer, in my experience, can be removed imply by WEARING rather than ADDIND another tattoo layer, where is the benefit of one layer over another layer?

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I have a couple of skins that are sold in this way. What they mostly do is supply a fat-pack of the body skins in all the tones, on the skin layer. On these skins the head is blank and untextured. And the head skins are sold separately, one tone at a time, on the tattoo layer.  I suspect it's done this way because it's the easiest  or quickest way to convert old applier layers back to BOM.

The only advantage I can see to the end-user, you and me, is that if you want to purchase more than one colour-tone of the same skin, or another head from the same skin-maker, you only need buy another head skin, because you already have the body in that fat-pack. So it could potentially work out cheaper if you want more than one.

I really wish they would change them all to single complete skins though. It's not that hard to do.

Edited by Matty Luminos
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1 hour ago, Matty Luminos said:

I really wish they would change them all to single complete skins though. It's not that hard to do.

That would add a lot of work, actually. Each head type they specifically support needs all the skins in all the colors to be made. Second, some bodies don't fully conform to SL UVs, and you may need to modify older skins and such. 

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7 hours ago, Senet Wylder said:

Soooo BoM I understand.

 

What I am curious about is why a BoM skin would be on a tattoo layer as opposed to a skin layer? Since a tattoo layer, in my experience, can be removed imply by WEARING rather than ADDIND another tattoo layer, where is the benefit of one layer over another layer?

When system skins were originally made any skin would work on any shape with the system body because any differences were minor with the low detail of the system body.

With mesh bodies and heads, it's typical for every body to use a slightly different layout and every head maker to use a slightly different layout that isn't linked to the body. It's easier to have the skin be based on the body and the head be a tattoo added to that or vice versa. Otherwise a skin maker would need to make Maitreya/Catwa skins, Maitreya/Lelutka skins, Belleza/Catwa skins, etc.

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1 hour ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Otherwise a skin maker would need to make Maitreya/Catwa skins, Maitreya/Lelutka skins, Belleza/Catwa skins, etc.

I'm not so sure about this. The idea of BOM is to use system layers and all system layers are built of the LL UV maps. I created a head-to-toe skin (the way we used to in the old days and should be done) - and I've tested it will my Belleza's, Maitreya, Tonic, and Slink - works great. Also tested it with my Catwas, Genuses, and LAQ - again, all work fine, I am with the understanding that any difference in UV maps are handled at the creator level; just as Omega system "translates' that, so does the BOM system. I do admit I didn't scrutinize and look too closely at things, it was just a very fast "let's see what happens" kind of thing. I didn't notice anything amiss.

I'm not a techno-nerd and I know enough to be dangerous, so I'm not saying this is the case. But if it's not, then how can the one skin I created fit so well on all those bodies and all those heads with no adjustment on my part?

As for the blank head on skins and tattoo layer for heads? Horrible idea. I do not consider that true BOM (yes, I know it is on a technical level) - but the idea is that you cannot accidental remove your skin. But in those cases you can certainly accidentally remove your FACE. LOL

Edited by Alyona Su
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My initial reaction was same as yours, but once I figured the reasoning behind it, I have to admit it is actually a smart solution....ok, so here`s an example; let`s say the  skin  is sold in  maitreya+lelutka combination on skin layer, but maybe you are wearing belleza body with lelutka head, so you would have to add maitreya+lelutka skin and tattoo with belleza body skin on top of that...

Here`s why: as Theresa mentioned, bodies do follow SLUV guidelines, but some areas differ, usually feet and hands which is why there are no universal appliers, Bom (same as Omega) only ensures the ability to use textures across different brands, it does not solve UV incompatibilities for problem areas....Then there is the issue with having tons of bodies and heads (even if we only count the most popular), If creators were to make each body+head combination in each skin tone and every single variation (cleavage options, fit body, chubby body, freckles, tan lines etc) your skin folder would end up with 100+items...

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53 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

I'm not so sure about this. The idea of BOM is to use system layers and all system layers are built of the LL UV maps. I created a head-to-toe skin (the way we used to in the old days and should be done) - and I've tested it will my Belleza's, Maitreya, Tonic, and Slink - works great. Also tested it with my Catwas, Genuses, and LAQ - again, all work fine, I am with the understanding that any difference in UV maps are handled at the creator level; just as Omega system "translates' that, so does the BOM system. I do admit I didn't scrutinize and look too closely at things, it was just a very fast "let's see what happens" kind of thing. I didn't notice anything amiss.

I'm not a techno-nerd and I know enough to be dangerous, so I'm not saying this is the case. But if it's not, then how can the one skin I created fit so well on all those bodies and all those heads with no adjustment on my part?

The differences are quite subtle - minor differences in nipple position, shading, etc. For instance, Maitreya's breasts have a much different center transition than Slink breasts - many skins that look fine on a Slink body will show an obvious stripe of shading across part of Maitreya breasts. Interestingly enough, old Belleza skins look much better on Slink bodies than they look on Belleza mesh bodies. Neither Omega nor BOM "translate" anything - they smack a texture onto a body/head exactly the way the body/head maker mapped it. Omega works as well as it does because it asks skin makers to make certain parts of the body less defined.

The differences are especially noticeable when something has been optimized for a certain head or body. One skin maker did a test on it. Most old system skins or Omega skins will give you a "B" quality match on just about anything. However, if something's been mapped for an "A" match on one product (especially a head) it will be a "C" or "D" quality match on another head.

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6 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

I'm not so sure about this. The idea of BOM is to use system layers and all system layers are built of the LL UV maps. I created a head-to-toe skin (the way we used to in the old days and should be done) - and I've tested it will my Belleza's, Maitreya, Tonic, and Slink - works great. Also tested it with my Catwas, Genuses, and LAQ - again, all work fine

Same here. I have a BOM skin made for LAQ heads, and another made for Genus; both of them fit my Catwa head perfectly.

The only time I have issues (sometimes, not always) is when wearing a male skin on a female head; in this case I often find that the brows are too low compared to female skins, but provided that they include a no-brows option I can just use that, and add separate brows. Which I would generally do anyway, because 99% of male skins are sold only with black brows, and 99% of the time I want blonde or red.

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Thank you all for "'Splainin' like I am 5" (I love that thread in Reddit! LOL) - it makes sense now baed on your descriptions.

As to the body-skin/head tattoo thing - I would think the creators still have their original textures. So, it seems to me, creating a single head-to-toe skin isn't that difficult to do (then call it BOM skin and sell it as only BOM skin, that's what Session is starting to do).

I am thinking, and this in only what I perceive, many skin creators are looking for shortcuts: it's easy to just make a bunch of tattoos and throw a face texture on it. Where if updating a skin, one would have to do the same for every body skin, multiplied by the different tones, multiplied by each "idiosyncrasy" (head brands, body brands, etc.).

Okay, fine for updating older skins that were applier-only. But anything new should be a full head-to-toe skin the way I see it, for reasons. :)

Edited by Alyona Su

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I was curious about this recently when I got my first BOM head skin and realized it wasn't on the skin layer. The skin maker created an FAQ specifically for this, and here's what it says, directly from their website:

 

The best way to create HEAD skins is to do it on the system tattoo layer! Because there are several mesh bodies around in Second Life, DeeTaleZ is offering skins for, its impossible for us to create our HEAD skins on system skin layer.

Because the system skin layer needs head and body texture to work, we would have to create 864  (!!!) system skin layers for each offered Skin in the store, if we want to offer you the full range of existing body skins we have, and that is what we want also with BOM!

Calculation example to make clear what that means:

We have every HEAD skin available in 6 Skintones, each with 6 different brows options on skin. That means we have to create (6×6)  36 system tattoo layers for HEAD skin.

Now that we have 4 Mesh Bodies we offer skins for, each in 2 Versions (chubby and default, the freckles version was not considered here), each with 3 different breast options (small, big and natural breasts) we have (4x2x3) 24 BODY skin textures for every Skintone. This means that we have to add the 24 BODY textures to every single one of the 36 HEAD textures, that is (36×24) 864 system skin layers for every skin product we offer. Even if we would do the brows not on skin texture, we would have to create (6×24) 144 skin system layers plus 30 system tattoo layers for the brows (also here the BODY freckles version was not considered)….. So you see this cant be the way to do it!

The system tattoo layer is the best way for us to offer our HEAD skins! You can use it in combination with makeups and addons that are also created on tattoo layer very easy by sorting the layers (moving them “up” or “down” on your Avatar) in “edit outfit” menu! With BOM there is no alpha glitch and you can use up to 42 layers!

The BODY skins will be on system skin layer, separate available in the Body section!

 

ETA: While, in theory, they might not have to make a version for every body, since a single BOM skin would work with all BOM-ready bodies, the mapping is slightly different for each body in different areas, such as fingers and toes. I noticed this using with two different bodies, particularly that the shadowing for the underside of the breasts didn't line up properly using the same BOM skin on each. Using a skin made specifically for each body, both BOM skins, things lined up perfectly.

Edited by Ariel Vuissent
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On 2/14/2020 at 8:15 PM, Senet Wylder said:

Soooo BoM I understand.

 

What I am curious about is why a BoM skin would be on a tattoo layer as opposed to a skin layer? Since a tattoo layer, in my experience, can be removed imply by WEARING rather than ADDIND another tattoo layer, where is the benefit of one layer over another layer?

Because the mesh maker in question, who I have not yet read further enough to know who it is... is basically full of fail...

BOM is so you can get rid of the onion layers...

But too many builders are just assigning it to one of their onion layers and then proudly declaring "full BOM support' when in fact they have done the exact opposite...

There ARE exceptions... and if your mesh body / head of choice has not yet put out it's official BOM support, I HIGHLY URGE you to message anyone on their design team you can find and tell them to AT LEAST make a version that is nothing more than a single layer body with NO ONIONS as an option for true BOM compliance.

 

As for people who say they can't get it to line up right when they do make a skin for the skin layer... well... on the one hand this is why BOM is not the dream it promotes itself as... but on the other hand it's not on the skin maker if the mesh maker refuses to follow the UV map right...
- as for head and neck seams... just make sure there's a space at the connection area where the pixels are all a basic repeated pattern of color (the same 'grain' or some such) so that it will look right even when off by a few pixels on some brands...
- and put the burden of getting alignment right back where it belongs: with the mesh maker.

I've got skins from brands that don't seem to have this issue... so if another brand is having this issue... I'm calling 'excuses' rather than 'reasons'...

 

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap

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On 2/15/2020 at 1:38 PM, Theresa Tennyson said:

With mesh bodies and heads, it's typical for every body to use a slightly different layout and every head maker to use a slightly different layout that isn't linked to the body. It's easier to have the skin be based on the body and the head be a tattoo added to that or vice versa. Otherwise a skin maker would need to make Maitreya/Catwa skins, Maitreya/Lelutka skins, Belleza/Catwa skins, etc.

On 2/15/2020 at 2:44 PM, Alyona Su said:

I'm not so sure about this. The idea of BOM is to use system layers and all system layers are built of the LL UV maps. I created a head-to-toe skin (the way we used to in the old days and should be done) - and I've tested it will my Belleza's, Maitreya, Tonic, and Slink - works great. Also tested it with my Catwas, Genuses, and LAQ - again, all work fine, I am with the understanding that any difference in UV maps are handled at the creator level; just as Omega system "translates' that, so does the BOM system. I do admit I didn't scrutinize and look too closely at things, it was just a very fast "let's see what happens" kind of thing. I didn't notice anything amiss.

I'm not a techno-nerd and I know enough to be dangerous, so I'm not saying this is the case. But if it's not, then how can the one skin I created fit so well on all those bodies and all those heads with no adjustment on my part?

When a new body is created, it needs to be UV unwrapped somehow, so that the mesh knows where parts of any given texture should go.

Instead of unwrapping things manually, you can get another already-unwrapped mesh and transfer UVs.

This way, the new body can have its UV layout almost identical* to the original system body.

*The layout won't be 1:1 because any difference in the shapes of the two bodies will cause the UV map to be skewed. This can be helped a little bit with manual editing, but it will never be 100% accurate. You can't map a ball to a square and expect perfect results.

"Any difference is handled at the creator level" is correct in the sense that the creators must make sure that the mesh's UV matches as close as possible with the system body.

"Just as the Omega system translates that, so does the BOM system" isn't true because they don't "translate" anything. There is no way for scripts to know anything about a texture (size, content, etc) or manipulate it. Omega works just like any other applier, it does nothing special aside from being widely accepted with its "universal interface" for making appliers. The Omega-specific listener script in each body just applies the textures different links/faces depending on the order and how many components the body has. BOM is the same deal, it only says "hey Mesh, this is your texture now" and the mesh goes "ok, let me apply it exactly as I was told to do by my creator."

To @Alyona Su specifically: Do you sell that skin you made? If you don't, would you mind showing some screenshots of the toes from each body with your skin applied?

2 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

As for people who say they can't get it to line up right when they do make a skin for the skin layer... well... on the one hand this is why BOM is not the dream it promotes itself as... but on the other hand it's not on the skin maker if the mesh maker refuses to follow the UV map right...

Exactly. 🙂

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On 2/15/2020 at 4:15 AM, Senet Wylder said:

(...) What I am curious about is why a BoM skin would be on a tattoo layer as opposed to a skin layer? (...)

Each creator can probably give you a different answer here, but, modularity is a great bet.
With body and face separate, you can just sell the bodies and heads separate which is what it has been done for years now with appliers, and this is just an evolution of that.
But with BoM you cannot rely on having an applier for the body and another for the head, since you need to supply a skin layer and a skin layer needs the 3 elements, Head, Upper and Lower, not having the face on a tattoo layer would be a problem.

So what's the problem exactly?

From a developer point of view, it's a multiplication problem.
With appliers you can have as many heads as you want, and the body can come separate. The body applier only needs to have the Upper and Lower texture, the head applier would only have the Head texture. Simple enough, and they can sell these separate.

So what's the advantage they had so far with them being sold separate in different appliers vs the old days skin layers?

Modularity is hardly ever a bad thing. Consider this. Once upon a time before the Tattoo layer even existed you'd buy skins with pre-applied makeup and facial hair. Yes, this was a thing, I remember buying the same skin twice (at full price) with the sole difference being one came in shaved and the other with a beard, which these days sounds like a ridiculous proposition.
But more to the point of the skin appliers we've been accustomed to and how they are better than the old ways. Consider this, right now it's common to have a Fit, Muscular and Chubby version of a body skin.
Now imagine you make skins and you wanna make another type of body, call it Ripped for argument sake, but you have 100 different faces on your store in 10 tones each.
Are you really gonna create a new skin for the body and make 1,000 new versions of the thing to put in your store? That would be 1000 prims added, and 1000 MP listings...
This was the advantage skin appliers brought, as you could just create the new skin for the body and sell just those appliers separate, all your head skins would work, only 1 extra prim in your store for that vendor, and 1 MP listing.

With BoM bringing back layers, the body skin on the skin layer and the face skin on the tattoo layer is just an evolution of this modularity.
Because a Skin layer in SL requires 3 textures, Head, Upper and Lower, that would mean the content creators having to manually make every head and body combination, which is a useless waste of time.
By putting the face on a tattoo layer they don't have to pre-set who knows how many combinations, so they can keep creating and selling these separate, making it easier for them and a better shopping experience for you.

From a memory use perspective, it makes no odds, these are baked on the server so are no using more texture memory just because they are separate.

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