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Chic Aeon

True or False - 40 Lindens Fired and Sansar Development over

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Only comment of interest so far today -- from a dev -- and that seems to go along a bit with what Ebbe said last night --- HMMMM. This in comment to someone saying Sansar was closing and the dev's reply that they were not closed -- then :

"we're still a caterpillar y'all yet to turn into a butterfly"

 

Edited by Chic Aeon

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9 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

I have never been fired IRL but knowing it was "not you"  has got to be somewhat of a comfort.

Long ago, I was laid off after the company I worked for was acquired.

I was told I was "high maintenance".

I found that comforting!

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1 hour ago, Kurshie Muromachi said:

Wagner puts it...

"With his layoff, Linden Lab loses its last known link to Second Life during its founding, and glory days of 2006-2008. "

That's not true. Soft Linden is still around.

 

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3 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

That's not true. Soft Linden is still around.

Thanks. Wagner obviously needs to correct himself on that bit then. I've known him to get certain bits off at times or miss important info.

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No official announcement today on the situation and the product meeting that WAS apparently scheduled has been erased from the calendar.  This from comments on Discord.   That's all I know. Lots of chatter, mostly about nothing much :D. 

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This should come as no surprise to anyone that tried to develop at Sansar.

The writing has been on the wall for the better part of a year.

Ashame really, the place launched with super potential.

Could have competed with the likes of Unity or Unreal, but they wanted to focus on social VR instead

If there should be one take away from this it's that you don't build a social platform, you build a platform and then IF social happens you let it.

SL's success was in supplying tools, letting the social occur naturally on it's own

 

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2 hours ago, Gindipple said:

Could have competed with the likes of Unity or Unreal, but they wanted to focus on social VR instead

I have to mightily disagree with you here.   I don't know about Unreal, but Sinespace is built on Unity and pretty much did exactly what you suggested -- used their engine and then made some tweaks.   As far as I can tell there are less people there than in Sansar --- not many for sure in about the same amount of time.  

 

The first day I arrived in Sansar ( 20 months or so ago) I got my avatar all set, read the info on uploading and successfully uploaded a set of mesh crates that I had made in SL. The next day I moved on to a bangle (sort of faux rigged like an attachment would be here in SL only the system was completely different).  Two items inworld and used in Sansar in a few hours.   

 

In SINESPACE a couple of weeks ago I tried to upload a bangle and got completely stuck. Then I tried to upload a pose as I was told that they REALLY needed poses there.  Well, 26 hours (TWENTY SIX HOURS) later AND with the mentoring of a dev I  'may' have succeeded in getting a single pose up.  Oh wait. No, that's not correct. I may have succeeded in getting it up to the PREVIEW server.  I then found out that I needed several more pages of forms (panes to check off boxes and make changes) filled out before I could even ask for it to be added to the store.   In BOTH SL and in Sansar, I could get that pose in with one click on the upload button.   BIG difference.  

 

I like Sinespace. The folks are friendly for the most part but I will never create there because it is nothing close to fun. It is PAINFUL.  I had been warned by other creators (more talented than I) how difficult and cumbersome Unity was.  I believed the devs at Sinespace saying I would learn to love it.  NOT happening.    Basing a platform on something only professions can use limits creation.   Because of that I fear that Sinespace will never take off.  There were many decisions in Sansar that were unwise, but building a better engine with a simpler method was not one of them. 

 

Have you created in both Unity and Unreal?  I only know two people that have.  

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31 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

Have you created in both Unity and Unreal?  I only know two people that have

I do, and in both engines things are way easier to make look and work good. But I am also tech savvy, I am used to nodes and scripting in general, so you can say I'm sorta biased toward these methods. 

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So (this is to both of you) IS there a platform with "creator content" based on Unity of Unreal that is actually viable?    Sinespace certainly isn't. After all this time there is very little to buy in the store (compared to over 30,000 items in Sansar. 

 

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1 minute ago, OptimoMaximo said:

@Chic Aeon what is there to laugh about my comment? 

Your bias, not your skill.

 

My point was NOT about Unity or Unreal being "less" than what Sansar tried to build, but that basing a platform where the average person can create (such as SL) on something where the average (or even above average) tech savvy person CANNOT is not viable for any kind of longevity.   If you are building a stand alone game -- or even components to sell to others making games, that is one thing. Building a community of creators like SL is a completely different story. 

 

I am heading back to bed but will catch up tomorrow. 

 

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6 hours ago, Gindipple said:

SL's success was in supplying tools, letting the social occur naturally on it's own

I agree that all these platforms are ultimately doomed unless they embed full-featured creation tools, but they may limp along, dependent on external tools, in a transition phase long enough to get positive cashflow (although we lack an existence proof of this ever once succeeding -- and yet even still, it's what everybody tries).

But I gotta quibble with the idea that "social" emerged organically in SL, like some Libertarian wet dream. God knows there were some Objectivist true believers among the very early Lab folks, but it didn't take long for them to realize they needed some pro-social intervention to make a business of it. Robin played a huge part in the early success of SL as a place anybody would consider hanging out after a "creative" session of terraforming with hand grenades.

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Qie and Gindipple (sorry, the e-snail thing is not working for me) are both right. Joined SL and within a few days had knocked up (really awful) skins, tees, jeans as well as first skybox. Had a bit of a boost as LSL was pretty easy for me. Point is, tools were there and easy to use. OK so a little more complex now but still pretty accessible. And yes despite my best efforts the 'social' thing happened at the same time.

I have tried all the platforms as they have come out and its still the major sticking point. I can knock out enough in unity (for example) but the hassle involved is just not worth it when the same thing direct from blender comes in here, no mess, no pack drill (even there, sansar had enough caveats to make me not bother). As for the equivalent scripting capability - again, yes I can get along with any basically c-ish derived script thing but the paucity of info is just not worth expending effort on.

When a platform that offers the ease of making stuff that SL does (for what I want to do/are capable of/am happy to make the effort to expand on) as well as a potential diverse user base thats not aimed at the 13+ market then give me a call.

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I am all for tools and documentation, and handing them over to creators and saying 'Here you go'. That's all I personally need - keep me out of the social aspect, especially if it's toxic, because I'll stand up for myself.

I've had a generally unpleasant time with the social aspect of Sansar - as it is generally full of entitled and narcissistic clout-seeking people who will stop at nothing to keep themselves and their little group at the top of Sansar and from my day one there and overhearing "I like Sansar being small" and all the efforts of this 'core group' in doing so has been successful. They won. I would even say that the large part of Sansar's slow growth is due to it's social issues, and how hard the staff has been in enforcing it on its users. This seemed to go away with the first round of layoffs - not sure why it correlated to a 'silence of SJW agenda' that actually made Sansar a better social place, but it did. However, the pivot to events didn't work either - especially when it seemed like there was no success at securing anything that was remotely interesting.

I still believe Sansar should have really promoted the creative part of it. The problem is, Sansar is generally a game-development workflow when making worlds, and this is out of reach for many users in general. Even I had to change my workflow even on texturing assets to adjust to a more 'pro' level/world building.

So yeah, I was never a fan of the social efforts, diseased with enforced SJW issues and people snitching on others about absolutely nothing, backstabbing and lying and in some cases just fabricating drama out of thin air. Still I am there because I do love the platform, can see the long term vision, and I lose nothing by contributing in the short term because I keep learning more and more skills that are benefiting me in other areas of my life.

I am not a big fan of the community leaders at times, but it is never personal, I state my mind honestly and take my lumps. Still seeking like-minded individuals though that like to share, explore, analyze, deconstruct and learn from good and bad examples. Seeking honest creators who actually make stuff and don't upload customized assets from CGTrader and Sketchfab.

As far as Sansar halting or slowing development, I say 'go ahead' if they need to. There is more than enough tools at least so far for any of us to create engaging content - which I am still working on (a late bloomer) - that can keep creators busy for the near future. From my observations and 'participation' in the community, most creators haven't even come close to using the tech and tools available to their max. Personally, as a generalist, although I may release a 'world' teaser soon, for where I want it to be might take me until Christmas 2020 to flesh out the concept/style/world/assets/animations/scripting - but it should be a unique contribution noone has seen before. That takes time.

So if they have to cut back for now to keep going, then so be it. Unless they get in my way or discourage my investment in Sansar, I'll still be there creating away, waiting for my audience to show up.
 

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On 2/12/2020 at 10:13 PM, Kurshie Muromachi said:

New World Notes put a post up on one of the people let go. It's Kona Linden who was in Linden Lab's QA team for Second Life for 16 years. As Wagner puts it...

Edit: ChinRey says that Soft Linden is still around so the quote from Wagner is not true.

The NWN statement appears to be far from accurate in terms of long-term Lindens still at the Lab. There are Lindens who joined either before or during the 2006-2008 period the article references and who still appear to be at the Lab (they still have active SL accounts). These include: Dan (2002), Callum and Torley (2004), Guy, Patsy and Runitai (2005); Aura (2006); Alexa, Brad, Brett, Ekim, Nat, Patch, Simon, Soft, TJ (all 2007). Possibly more, but that's the top-of-head list Whirly Fizzle and I came up with.

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2 hours ago, Inara Pey said:

The NWN statement appears to be far from accurate in terms of long-term Lindens still at the Lab. There are Lindens who joined either before or during the 2006-2008 period the article references and who still appear to be at the Lab (they still have active SL accounts). These include: Dan (2002), Callum and Torley (2004), Guy, Patsy and Runitai (2005); Aura (2006); Alexa, Brad, Brett, Ekim, Nat, Patch, Simon, Soft, TJ (all 2007). Possibly more, but that's the top-of-head list Whirly Fizzle and I came up with.

Why am I SO NOT SURPRISED (and actually knew parts were wrong). He has misquoted me and used my info without permission SO VERY MANY TIMES that I no longer visit. Thanks for doing the homework.   Whirly too.  

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So the OFFICIAL WORD from Sansar Discord today is that there "may" be a statement regarding recent events early next week. Not before. And that is still a "maybe". 

Edited by Chic Aeon
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Ebbe just announced on Lab Gab that LL is looking for a new "home" for Sansar. They are not going to be moving forward with it.

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i am pleased that Sansar may find a new home. There is some good stuff in there

i do feel a little loss in my soul tho. Same as how I felt when Blue Mars shut down. Same with High Fidelity not making it as far as the originators wanted. Same small sense of loss when all the others that came, also went

of all the platforms out there I think that Sansar is best placed to be a general platform (because of the design of its infrastructure) for more passive forms of mass entertainment rather than the more active forms like gaming and general building

so is hope that Sansar can go on  with a new vision. A thing is that 3D googles are still a compellingly different way to view stuff. And lots of people are fascinated when they do put goggles on

 

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another thing is that I am pleased that Linden are keeping Tilia

i think that Tilia has enormous potential.  Linden have more experience than anyone in managing a sustainable virtual currency economy where the currency (tokens) can be exchanged for real money

if Linden can leverage Tilia into providing virtual currency  support to other 3rd-party worlds/games/experiences then our Tilia account may end up being the glue that binds us as agents/avatars/characters to the metaverse

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2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

if Linden can leverage Tilia into providing virtual currency  support to other 3rd-party worlds/games/experiences then our Tilia account may end up being the glue that binds us as agents/avatars/characters to the metaverse

doubt you will ever see this happen, just doesn't make sense for competing companies to share in their most profitable part

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