How much can you improve on your end before you realize it’s Second Life’s problem?

[Wulfie Reanimator]

"Infantalizing" the end-user with convenience is absolutely a good thing.

Political tribalism is absolutely not.

I'm a sith btw. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

9 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

You just go enjoy Bellisaria.

Oh, you did not just say this, right?

Oh wait. Yes. Yes you did.

9 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

calling them lazy or moronic is moronically lazy from a business practice perspective

I'm not the one doing so: on the contrary, I'm suggesting that the vast majority of users are quite capable of learning how to fix the problem themselves. It's your solution that treats them as lazy and moronic, even if your PR department won't let you use those actual words.

11 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Telling them to how to fix it themselves is all well and good, but it doesn't eliminate the problem, it merely tells people how to make it less annoying.

Make up your mind: are you talking about fixing the platform so that lag is less of an issue (i.e., "eliminating the problem") or devising ways of making it less of a burden for users? Here, you seem to have shifted your argument from the latter to the former. Yes, of course LL should try to reduce the incidence of lag. But that's not what you were talking about before.

14 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Designing a product that prevents them from seeing a problem in the first place is 10 times better, and gets more people to keep using your product.  You can call that "infantalizing" the customer, but people who understand consumers call it "good business".

What is "good" for a business is by no means always "good" for the consumer. Sorry, I'd rather empower users by providing better tools that will allow them to make intelligent and well-informed choices about how they want to experience the program. Your suggestion robs me of choice, and keeps me ignorant. Do that too much, and your shareholders and bean counters will have at least one less user to worry about.

And now, because I'm such an empty-headed little thing, I'm going to flounce off to Bellisseria (spelled correctly) to play bikini beach volleyball with all of the other sweet empty-headed little things, and leave the really important decisions to others who aren't so tiresome.

PFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTT

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

when I am hard wired into SL, it is much better.. But, normally and when I working across the USA I am not hard wired and must rely on a wifi connection. the worst performance yet was when I was on satellite connection... So, everyone is focusing on your graphics... let me add this.

 

 And also, all the mesh bodies, heads, clothing etc.. boggs down my pc considerably.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Tarina Sewell

[Scylla Rhiadra]

18 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

"Infantalizing" the end-user with convenience is absolutely a good thing.

Making something more "convenient" is not the same as taking choice out of someone's hands, and simply doing it for them.

Yes, there should be more convenient ways of dealing with lag built into the viewer.

But taking away their ability to control their own experience is exactly the kind of solution that, well . . .  that I'd expect a Sith lord to endorse. 😉

[Mahala Roviana]

[Wulfie Reanimator]

41 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Making something more "convenient" is not the same as taking choice out of someone's hands, and simply doing it for them.

Yes, there should be more convenient ways of dealing with lag built into the viewer.

But taking away their ability to control their own experience is exactly the kind of solution that, well . . .  that I'd expect a Sith lord to endorse. 😉

In all seriousness: Unless I missed something, nobody suggested that graphics settings should be closed off and only adjusted automatically, which would take away control.

Adding a feature to enable auto-adjusting is adding convenience without taking control.

Other games have features like this, the easiest of which to implement is lowering the render resolution dynamically when FPS drops below a certain threshold. Same for shadow and max texture resolution.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Scylla Rhiadra]

25 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

In all seriousness: Unless I missed something, nobody suggested that graphics settings should be closed off and only adjusted automatically, which would take away control.

Adding a feature to enable auto-adjusting is adding convenience without taking control.

Other games have features like this, the easiest of which to implement is lowering the render resolution dynamically when FPS drops below a certain threshold. Same for max texture resolution.

It may be a question of degree: my understanding of what Tolya is suggesting is that, basically, the platform simply take care of that for the user. There are lots of issues with that, some of which I've mentioned, but another big one is that it means that residents aren't given the opportunity to understand what creates lag -- and how they might be contributing to it.

But, yes, I don't by any means disagree that making it easier to deal with lag is a good thing. I just don't think it should be automated, and hidden away.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Scylla Rhiadra
Good thing, bad thing? Whatevs.

[FairreLilette]

I don't think "automated" helps...as the viewer does kind of set settings for the user but I still had mega-lag which I thoroughly believe and have witnessed came from my avatar not other avatars.  I could make jelly dolls all the day long and still have lag.  Once I became a Dinkie, lag gone.

And, it's not really complexity that is the problem:  it's too large of textures (user created content - no control over) and too many polygons (user created content - no control over).

We Dinkies use 512 x 512 textures for almost everything, and I even use 256 x 256 for some of my jewelry parts which is plenty.

If a 1024 x 1024 texture were a 10 with 10 being best; my 512 x 512 textures are a 9 to 9.9 just as good.  And, my small jewelry part textures are just fine too...look terrific.  

I think 1024 x 1024 is way over-rated from my experience and I'd say almost all my 512 x 512 textures are a 9.9, just as good.

I also wanted to add that the Dinkie avatar itself does not have scripts...except for the eyes I think.  Dinkies can buy Bento add ons...tails, ears, whatever...but perhaps it's the scripts in the avatar that are the most laggy thing in SL.  

I think a time has come to at least make a human avatar where the hands and feet are attached and see if that helps anything at all.  

Edited February 6, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Tolya Ugajin]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Let me make sure I include only the useful parts:
 

A product innovation that makes the consumer's experience more pleasant and easy is not treating them as moronic or lazy - that's just, well, frankly that's just a stupid way of looking at it.  It's treating the consumer as valuable - their time is valuable, their initial impression of your platform is valuable, etc.  There is a lot of feedback on this forum that users (particularly new or returning users) struggle with the experience being poor because of lag.  There are ways to fix that now - ways that assume the new user will take the time and effort to learn them. But there are potentially better ways to fix it going forward, that do not require the investment of time and energy by the new customer - who may eventually pay LL a monthly membership, buy a sim, buy landscaping from Luna, buy houses and furniture from Pam, buy clothes from probably 20 people here, buy gachas, buy talking animated genitals, and buy Lindens from LL to buy all that.  That new potential CUSTOMER is valuable to a whole lot of people, even outside of the value you personally put on them (potential friends and community members).  Reducing the possibility that every new person coming to SL stays long enough to become a "paying customer" (in any or all of the ways I mentioned) should be a primary focus of LL.  But, nah, Scylla thinks it's making them lazy and treating them as morons.  Here's an idea, and I know it will strike you as being anti-socialist: let's allow businesses focus on making consumers happy through better products and services, and let's allow consumers, let's put our faith in them, to decide for themselves what is "best for them".

BTW, I am in no way saying make it impossible for users to change settings to their heart's content.  Once they go beyond being a new user and want to do photography, or build, or whatever they will need and want to adjust settings, and they will also be far more willing to invest the time and effort into learning how.  You KNOW I'd never suggest anything that gives me less control I'm saying make the viewer to default to dynamically adjust the various things others are saying "they can do it themselves" to make the new user experience easier.  I'm baffled how anyone could get the idea I was suggesting locking out settings controls. 

I'm equally baffled at how you could think I am shifting my argument.  Lag is a perceived phenomenon, the result of many factors.  I have been focusing on how the viewer could be tweaked to make it less of a burden. 

While I enjoy the mental image of you in a bikini playing beach volleyball, you know better than to think I take you for empty headed.  Although I have noticed you flounce about 😛

Edited February 6, 2020 by Tolya Ugajin
ETA what is in bold

[Tolya Ugajin]

41 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

In all seriousness: Unless I missed something, nobody suggested that graphics settings should be closed off and only adjusted automatically, which would take away control.

Adding a feature to enable auto-adjusting is adding convenience without taking control.

Other games have features like this, the easiest of which to implement is lowering the render resolution dynamically when FPS drops below a certain threshold. Same for shadow and max texture resolution.

Absolutely what I am saying, thanks.

[Tolya Ugajin]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Making something more "convenient" is not the same as taking choice out of someone's hands, and simply doing it for them.

Yes, there should be more convenient ways of dealing with lag built into the viewer.

But taking away their ability to control their own experience is exactly the kind of solution that, well . . .  that I'd expect a Sith lord to endorse. 😉

I will grant you one thing - taking convenience to the point where your La-Z-Boy has a built in toilet (a la "Idiocracy", the greatest social commentary film of all time) is going too far!

[Janet Voxel]

19 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

I will grant you one thing

 

[FairreLilette]

45 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

A product innovation that makes the consumer's experience more pleasant and easy is not treating them as moronic or lazy - that's just, well, frankly that's just a stupid way of looking at it.  It's treating the consumer as valuable - their time is valuable, their initial impression of your platform is valuable, etc.  There is a lot of feedback on this forum that users (particularly new or returning users) struggle with the experience being poor because of lag.  There are ways to fix that now - ways that assume the new user will take the time and effort to learn them. But there are potentially better ways to fix it going forward, that do not require the investment of time and energy by the new customer - who may eventually pay LL a monthly membership, buy a sim, buy landscaping from Luna, buy houses and furniture from Pam, buy clothes from probably 20 people here, buy gachas, buy talking animated genitals, and buy Lindens from LL to buy all that.  That new potential CUSTOMER is valuable to a whole lot of people, even outside of the value you personally put on them (potential friends and community members).  Reducing the possibility that every new person coming to SL stays long enough to become a "paying customer" (in any or all of the ways I mentioned) should be a primary focus of LL.  But, nah, Scylla thinks it's making them lazy and treating them as morons.  Here's an idea, and I know it will strike you as being anti-socialist: let's allow businesses focus on making consumers happy through better products and services, and let's allow consumers, let's put our faith in them, to decide for themselves what is "best for them".

BTW, I am in no way saying make it impossible for users to change settings to their heart's content.  Once they go beyond being a new user and want to do photography, or build, or whatever they will need and want to adjust settings, and they will also be far more willing to invest the time and effort into learning how.  You KNOW I'd never suggest anything that gives me less control I'm saying make the viewer to default to dynamically adjust the various things others are saying "they can do it themselves" to make the new user experience easier.  I'm baffled how anyone could get the idea I was suggesting locking out settings controls. 

😛

Could you give a quick run down of what settings an automated viewer re-set would do?

p.s.  I always thought my viewer "picked" recommended settings for me but I must have been wrong.  

p.s.s.  To the OP:  Along with reducing draw distance and turning off or down particles, close all other programs while on SL and see if that helps any.  

I also like busy active places...busy and active is mostly where I go so I did experience mega-lag as a human.  I'd turn my LOD down to 2 to 2.75 and it helped some.

However, as a Dinkie there is not this problem.  We had nearly 80 people on sim Sunday and did not crash.  

Edited February 6, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

[A whole lot of stuff]

Well, you've either added enough nuance to your position -- or to give you more credit, sufficiently clarified it -- that I can almost agree with what you say.

We're going to have to continue to disagree about your apparently boundless faith in "business" as an uncritically positive force in society, however: what is good for Chrysler is not necessarily good for the country. (I could produce a kazillion examples, but that would be a derail.)

You do, however, concede the importance of consumer choice. To that, I'd add that it needs to be informed choice: we need to be told what the consequences of what we choose are. And that's why I actually can't agree that your proposed affordance to deal with lag should be a default, because that's not really choice unless I'm made aware that I have other options.

So, let's leave it, maybe, at this: LL needs to work on fixing lag. They also need to provide better and easier to use tools to deal with such as is inevitable, including possibly something that automates graphics settings. But they need to make sure that the user understands that they have options, and what the consequences of those options are ("Warning: Clicking this button will render the Gorgeous Hunk of Manliness with whom you are currently dallying into a jellydoll!")

1 hour ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

you know better than to think I take you for empty headed.

Hmmm. Well, you did a pretty darned good imitation of it.

I'll overlook it this once.

1 hour ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Although I have noticed you flounce about

I am a practiced and accomplished flouncer. And, I have consciously weaponized it. Flouncing, along with eyelash batting, playing with my hair, leaning slightly forward while talking, and dozens of other little stratagems, are gendered vestiges of an age when women were denied virtually any access to the levers of social, economic, and political power. And until such time as actual equality of access to those has been achieved (we're not there yet), you're damned right I'm going to employ them. They are a Trojan Horse, conveniently well suited to kick down the whole rotten edifice from within.

You can understand that, right?

/me widens her eyes and bats her eyelashes, while absent mindedly adjusting her bikini top.

[Lyssa Greymoon]

1 hour ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

I'm baffled how anyone could get the idea I was suggesting locking out settings controls. 

Maybe it was using Apple as the shining example of convenience in design. That's exactly the kind of thing they do.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Lyssa Greymoon

[Tolya Ugajin]

1 hour ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

Maybe it was using Apple as the shining example of convenience in design. That's exactly the kind of thing they do.

ohhh lol I loathe Apple - inferior products at higher prices.  I just used it as an extension of Scylla's post.  (I'm really not a nerd)

/me waits for the Apple fanbois to roast him on a stake...

[Tolya Ugajin]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I am a practiced and accomplished flouncer. And, I have consciously weaponized it. Flouncing, along with eyelash batting, playing with my hair, leaning slightly forward while talking, and dozens of other little stratagems, are gendered vestiges of an age when women were denied virtually any access to the levers of social, economic, and political power. And until such time as actual equality of access to those has been achieved (we're not there yet), you're damned right I'm going to employ them. They are a Trojan Horse, conveniently well suited to kick down the whole rotten edifice from within.

You can understand that, right?

/me widens her eyes and bats her eyelashes, while absent mindedly adjusting her bikini top.

I'm not sure if I understand it, but I do know men get stupid when a pretty girl flounces by, so you would be a fool not to weaponize it so you can oppress the patriarchy right back.

[FairreLilette]

Get a room you two!

Ha!  Just kidding.  I know Toyla is engaged.  So, just kidding.  My ex and I were told to 'get a room' so many times I just felt like saying it but I'm kidding and not at all serious.

But, my ex and I were told that all of the time.  He was an octopus in public.  I never liked that about him.  

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Lyssa Greymoon]

44 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

ohhh lol I loathe Apple - inferior products at higher prices.  I just used it as an extension of Scylla's post.  (I'm really not a nerd)

/me waits for the Apple fanbois to roast him on a stake...

I'll have your back when they come for you.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

Get a room you two!

Ha!  Just kidding.  I know Toyla is engaged.  So, just kidding.  My ex and I were told to 'get a room' so many times I just felt like saying it but I'm kidding and not at all serious.

But, my ex and I were told that all of the time.  He was an octopus in public.  I never liked that about him.  

 

Well, mostly I think we enjoy squabbling in public, so even were we not both attached in RL, a room would totally defeat the purpose.

And, of course, Tolya is a perfect gentleman . . . unlike the ex-octopus.

[Tolya Ugajin]

3 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Get a room you two!

Ha!  Just kidding.  I know Toyla is engaged.  So, just kidding.  My ex and I were told to 'get a room' so many times I just felt like saying it but I'm kidding and not at all serious.

But, my ex and I were told that all of the time.  He was an octopus in public.  I never liked that about him.  

 

What I enjoy about Scylla is the ability to spar and even poke fun at each other with both of us knowing we respect the other.  And she knows how to tell me I'm being a jag without making me defensive about it.

I wonder how many Canadians know what a "stag and doe" party is?  Is it a common Canadian thing?  Because I've never heard of it and apparently I am hosting one in March.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

27 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

I wonder how many Canadians know what a "stag and doe" party is?  Is it a common Canadian thing?  Because I've never heard of it and apparently I am hosting one in March.

I think it's mostly an Ontario thing. I've been to a couple, I guess. They're essentially money raisers for the bride and groom, but with party games and things.

The ones I went to were ok. They seem a little forced and artificial to me ("Everyone have FUN dammit!"). But that probably depends a lot on who gets invited. I can imagine it might be a lot of fun. I'm sure yours will be lovely!

Edited February 7, 2020 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Tolya Ugajin]

23 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think it's mostly an Ontario thing. I've been to a couple, I guess. They're essentially money raisers for the bride and groom, but with party games and things.

The ones I went to were ok. They seem a little forced and artificial to me ("Everyone have FUN dammit!"). But that probably depends a lot on who gets invited. I can imagine it might be a lot of fun. I'm sure yours will be lovely!

groans "I don't need money raised, and parties involve...being with...people!

[Pussycat Catnap]

Can we maybe make a topic titled 'You! No You! And your Daddy Too, My dad could beat up your dad!' and move the whole Mac vs PC pretending to be not about Mac vs PC argument over there?

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Pussycat Catnap

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

groans "I don't need money raised, and parties involve...being with...people!

Yes. People whose names you will be expected to remember.

And don't forget PARTY GAMES!