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The Maitreya v5 Hype(?) Thread

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20 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

And why exactly are those seams there?

Oh please, you perfectly know why they are there. No need for that kind of comments to try have your way in discussion. But for the sake of others, who might not know, I'll answer anyway. Seams are there on places where alpha cuts are.

But no, it doesn't mean that alpha cuts are bad and must be eliminated at all cost; for example your favorite slink used exactly same system for 5+ years and they didn't had problems with seams, even on high altitudes.

But If go with this logic, then any badly made alpha layer from the glorious days of "standard sizes" means the alpha layers are bad, every badly rigged/fitted mesh clothing means that painted system clothing is way better, because they always fit and every badly scripted plane means that people who enjoy using said vehicles better just fly on their own instead.

It only means one thing - the creator is incompetent at what they do. Big surprise (not), knowing their history.

Edited by steeljane42
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A couple of quick points.

  • Alpha layers are, objectively speaking, a better and more efficient method of hiding the body. There is no way that precut alpha slices can ever hope to cover all of the possible ways in which a garment can be designed to sit on the body. Think of things like spaghetti straps, or cut-aways in clothing: an alpha layer specifically designed for such a piece of clothing will generally do a good job of hiding the body where needed; alpha slices will almost certainly not be able to handle this kind of finicky detail. In addition, in terms of computing, alpha layers are much smaller files; using these rather than saving a new copy of the mesh body and/or HUD for each outfit is much more efficient. And, as Moira notes, simply saving a copy of, or even a link to, an alpha layer is a very efficient use of resources.

    This has nothing really to do with "old" versus "new" ways: I have no nostalgia for the "old ways." There are a great many "old ways" of doing things that I heartily wish we could flush away permanently. But alpha slices have always been a clunky and inefficient way of handling the problems that mesh bodies produced when they were introduced.
     
  • No, most people are not going be able, or willing, to create their own alpha layers. That's sort of my point: if clothing makers don't do so (and the Maitreya decision makes it less like that they will), then there really is no choice but using alpha slices for most people, because they can't or won't make their own alpha layers. And that means that the hope that BOM will make it easier to fit clothing made for one make of body to other bodies is probably futile.
     
  • Market forces are neutral: they are neither pro-consumer nor pro-industry. And, they do not necessarily reflect the "best" or "most effective" way of approaching a particular product: just the one most likely to succeed in the market place. A good example that you yourself point to is the emergence and (to me) surprising popularity of the newest major entrant to the women's mesh body market.
     
  • I don't think Maitreya's decision derived from, or took account of, their near-monopoly on women's mesh bodies. What I'm arguing is that the kind of influence that decision will have on the entire industry, including both mesh body makers, and clothing creators, is an index of the fact that they do have a near monopoly. And, whereas I had half-hoped that BOM might loosen their stranglehold on the market somewhat (because the provision of custom alpha layers for clothes makes it easier to fit them to different bodies), I have a suspicion that this will actually solidify their hold. In any case, I think it was a very clever move by Maitreya.
     
  • Were I Slink, I'd be thinking about updating with a new provision for alpha cuts. Even if they do, however, it won't address the main point I was making: that Maitreya has effectively dictated to an entire and sizable segment of the SL economy "how things will be done in the future." That, as I said above, doesn't make them evil or sinister -- probably, it just means that they are clever. But, objectively, this demonstration of the power of one single maker over its own, and related segments of the economy, should worry us a bit.

Finally: I'm not losing much sleep over this. And I will almost certainly be purchasing a Lara myself very shortly. It's now becoming increasingly obvious that not doing so is going to really restrict my choices as a consumer.

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1 hour ago, Angelina String said:

designers can decide if they want to include their own alphas

My point, I guess, is that there is much less inducement now for designers to include their own alphas. For most of them, because Maitreya users will be their largest market by far, it won't be worthwhile doing so. And that means that we've not advanced at all on the old problem of clunky alpha cuts being inadequate to address the complexity of many designs. Standardized sets of alpha layers won't fix that: only layers designed specifically for each particular garment can.

With custom alpha layers, it is far more likely that one can fit something made for Maitreya to a Belleza, Altamura, or Slink body. Without them, that's much less likely (as, believe me, I can attest from personal experience).

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43 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

My point, I guess, is that there is much less inducement now for designers to include their own alphas. For most of them, because Maitreya users will be their largest market by far, it won't be worthwhile doing so. And that means that we've not advanced at all on the old problem of clunky alpha cuts being inadequate to address the complexity of many designs. Standardized sets of alpha layers won't fix that: only layers designed specifically for each particular garment can.

With custom alpha layers, it is far more likely that one can fit something made for Maitreya to a Belleza, Altamura, or Slink body. Without them, that's much less likely (as, believe me, I can attest from personal experience).

The Maitreya body offers both functionality for system alphas as well as alpha cuts. I personally see the need for both considering how much money people have spent for clothing that relied on alpha cuts over the past five years. I also see creators being liberated to create clothing items that do not have to align with the alpha cuts.  I am personally looking forward to seeing new necklines that are impossible to achieve using alpha cuts alone. I doubt creators would be so short sighted as to not take advantage of being able to offer designs that have been impossible for years now. We're tired of buying the same old, same old. I've already seen the addition of system alphas with a couple of my purchases recently.

I think you are rather misguided if you think a system alpha would somehow make a mesh garment designed for a Maitreya fit a Belleza, Altamura, or Slink body.

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18 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

The Maitreya body offers both functionality for system alphas as well as alpha cuts. I personally see the need for both considering how much money people have spent for clothing that relied on alpha cuts over the past five years. I also see creators being liberated to create clothing items that do not have to align with the alpha cuts.  I am personally looking forward to seeing new necklines that are impossible to achieve using alpha cuts alone. I doubt creators would be so short sighted as to not take advantage of being able to offer designs that have been impossible for years now. We're tired of buying the same old, same old. I've already seen the addition of system alphas with a couple of my purchases recently.

I think you are rather misguided if you think a system alpha would somehow make a mesh garment designed for a Maitreya fit a Belleza, Altamura, or Slink body.

Oh, I'm nearly always misguided, Blush. It's much more fun than merely being "correct"!

No, I don't think that this would always work, by any means.

But as it is now, I can wear some clothing made for Maitreya on my Slink Physique quite well, with the a judicious application of alpha cuts. With the more precise control that an alpha layer might give me, I'd be able to wear even more: in most cases, the problem comes down to a smallish area beneath the back of the neck, at the shoulder blades, and at the top and side of the hips. Occasionally sleeves will be a problem too. All would be very fixable with a slightly more precise alpha layer.

I very much hope that you're right about clothing makers producing alpha layers. No one would be more delighted to be wrong about this than me.

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23 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

I don't know how many that's using Slink/Maitreya combinations. Is it as many as some think?

I usually use Maitreya body but I have always liked SLink hands and feet better, more options for nail length and coloring and this update, 2 more foot options. Since they are what I started with, I have SLink-only manicures and shoes I still like. 

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6 hours ago, Fauve Aeon said:

I usually use Maitreya body but I have always liked SLink hands and feet better, more options for nail length and coloring and this update, 2 more foot options. Since they are what I started with, I have SLink-only manicures and shoes I still like. 

I have loads of Slink-only shoes.  So I will be trying to use Slink redux feet with the V5 body with the feet alpha-cut later.  Not super hopeful.  The other idea is to make foot alphas for the slink shoes to remove just the poke-tru, another thing I'll try.  I'm not complaining yet, loads of fun making this new stuff work!!!

Edit:  I went to the Maitreya Sim (I know, my bad...)  and got the V5 Autohide and V5 Autofoot.

1)  I'm using the Autofoot with CTS Wardrobe to auto-fit the right foot to the shoe, even if the shoe is no-mod, by adding a prim with the Autofoot script along with the shoe.  This works well.

2) Adding a V5 Autohide for the feet to Slink Redux feet works okay.  If you are hyper picky you can just see a line, but, hey, all those old Slink-only shoes....

 

 

Edited by anna2358

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Sharing some TIPS about the LARA V5 :
 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
1-Resize and set the save STICK in the best size and position on your screen.
2-Replacing an Outfit: 
3-Rezz the stick and rename as you wish,then take it back.
4-DO NOT REPLACE the BODY and THE HUD, you will lose all data of the alphas!
5-Wear the saved old outfit,remove hands and feet ( I did it erasing links ),
then STILL wearing the OLD BODY and OLD HUD (YESSS...STILL) ADD the new HUD,new BODY
and press in the old hud "Clean alphas, then apply Saved alphas": the NEW HUD has the 
capacity to take the alpha data! Then ADD the STICK and press"SAVE ALL".
6-Now detach the old HUD and old Body4.1,and SAVE keeping the STICK on your screen,
keep it because it is the new alpha data...we no more have slots on the hud.
I hope it will be usefull, because if you simply replace links, you'll lose all 
Hud alpha data.Enjoy your new body. Xoxo,Anna...

Edited by Annahperv

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I love the update. I think it was just what we who are ok with the body wanted. Maitreya aimed this to their customer base. 

People who don't like Maitreya, will not change their mind because of this update.

People who don't like Maitreya already have Belleza, Slink, Legacy, Tonic and others. So why should Maitreiya change the body so all previous content is broken, just to satisfy an user group that's not even their own? Because the list of what they dislike with Maitreya is so long, changing all that would basically be a new body.

And maybe Maitreya does that, who knows. There will probably be lots of people who don't like that body either.

Edited by Marianne Little
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It was a smooth transition with my RLV outfit folders..I just took the body out of my basics folder and replaced it with the v5. I put it on from the basics folder and put my skin back on and wah lah..

All my outfit folders work..

I was so ready for them not to work that I found myself getting a little pre-stressed..hehehehe

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finally today I bought Lara's body and it's another world..
The first reason is because the clothes I've recently found and I love most are designed specifically for Lara and I wasted enough time with alpha for hide or not piece of cloth and the second is  because it is so simple compared to the physique body.
Maybe it's because I'm stupid and I'm not able to use  Physique to the fullest, but now I quickly change my clothes without preparing different outfits ready to wear in my inventory.
By the way, I agree on the hands and feet, I will continue to use slink because they are the best.

 

(reading this post I wonder if I bought an old version or the new one... I haven't pay attention.. I'm so silly 😬)

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29 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

Maitreya aimed this to their customer base.

yes

and like you I am pretty happy with what I have seen from Maitreya

i have Maitreya and V-Tech and Belleza Freya and Kemono.  Which gives me 4 quite different mesh body shapes for each of the character styles I feel like wearing

if Belleza never changes to the same as Maitreya, or changes to some other way, then I am good with this. I got the Belleza Freya because of the shape I could make with it, same with the Maitreya, V-Tech and Kemono

i am not going to ditch any of my mesh body shapes, just because one of them updated their product

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   So far I'm not seeing any downsides to the update. It took me 10 seconds to set it up - most of which was spent toggling through the HUD tabs to find the 'BOM' button; with that one click it was back to operational. As far as outfits and changing the body goes, this wasn't really any news for me - I often have to update them to accommodate a more up-to-date shape and changing hairs, rings, nails, etc. But, with the Save Stick, using outfits should be quicker and easier now, if you want to save alpha cuts and body shine or whatnot. The way I usually do it is open my 'Current Outfit' folder, marking all the things I want to detach (ctrl + click to mark them all quickly), detach the lot in one go - open the Appearance, scroll to find the outfit that I want to wear / update, select the relevant attachments in the drop-down and add them, then delete that outfit and re-save it.

   I'm also very pleased with the HD nipples. It wasn't a feature I had looked at much in the blog, or 'hyped' much about - but when I tried them on and saw the difference .. Darn, it was like comparing Minecraft to-- Whatever game is cinematic. *shrugs* They look good. Too bad I can't show a before and after shot.

   I'm very pleased with the update. Personally I wouldn't mind if it had gone the 'Puritan Slink' route as I've gone all in on the BOM and don't have the slightest issue with using regular alphas (it's so easy a 5-year old could make their own alphas - if only the SL userbase on average wasn't more tech-inept than 5-year olds ... *sighs dreamily*). But I think that out of a business perspective, Maitreya did the right choices through and through.

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Not sure if it's a glitch or what triggered it:

I tried to apply nailpolish from an Alaska Metro pedicure HUD - and the fingernails disappeared. I had to apply a new manicure to make them reappear.

Pretty peculiar.

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53 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   ...

 (it's so easy a 5-year old could make their own alphas - if only the SL userbase on average wasn't more tech-inept than 5-year olds ... *sighs dreamily*). ...

My dad (RIP) used to ask me to change the VCR.  I think I was about 3.  He could never quite get the hang of all the buttons.

Edited by anna2358

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9 minutes ago, Lillith Hapmouche said:

Not sure if it's a glitch or what triggered it:

I tried to apply nailpolish from an Alaska Metro pedicure HUD - and the fingernails disappeared. I had to apply a new manicure to make them reappear.

Pretty peculiar.

The 'think' question to ask is 'what layer is the applier using'  and then 'am I wearing it'.  

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I am catching up... 

On 1/31/2020 at 1:55 AM, anna2358 said:

Be nice if they could get grid crossing working reliably again.  Much higher priority for me than all the Barbie-doll stuff.

They continue to work on REGION crossings. We don't do GRID crossings, except in OpenSim. BOM (Barbie-stuff) is an effort to reduce the amount of data that has to be transmitted from one server to the next when we cross regions. The amount of script code and data that has to be packed up and sent is the major part of that data. Slink made a huge reduction in their script weight. I'll have to compare the Maitreya v4 and v5 demos to see how they have done.

13 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

...

In a sense, though, this is an academic discussion. Maitreya's utter stranglehold on the market, and more specifically its enormous impact on clothing makers for women, means that this "compromise" approach is what is going to prevail. It will become, de facto, the new way of doing things.

What is a bit sad about that is that it will, possibly anyway, accelerate the process of driving clothing makers away from producing versions of clothing for other makes.

...

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Maitreya may have just completely sabotaged what was supposed to be the "new" way of doing things.

And this is one of the reasons why Maitreya's near monopoly is a bad thing. Not necessarily because they will be "evil," or do "bad things," but simply because their decisions and choices will become, inevitably, the new practice.

I am probably reading more into the world 'stranglehold' than you intend. I think if they had a true stranglehold we would see body makers dropping out of the market.

Slink made a video of how to make clothes for all their version of bodies. Done right, the process adds about 20 minutes to the design process. Excluding time for promotional materials, packaging, etc. 

I think those making for a limited set of brands are not all that well versed in modeling. They give up a lot to save a small amount of effort.

I also think we are using the word 'monopoly' to denote different things. Maitreya has a large market share and appears to be the market leader. I think you are using the word to denote that. But, they don't have a monopoly. Maitreya's competitors seem to be doing well.

I think 'sabotaged' is mischaracterizing what Maitreya is doing. But, your point is made. I do see Maitreya as giving people what they want in a way they prefer. If the customers reject a government's idea of a better way and the manufacturers cater to that it is just going with the flow of the market not sabotage.

12 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, yes and no. Slink Redux includes a really large selection of alpha layers that you can stack and that effectively reproduce the same effect as alpha cuts, more efficiently (although not as "easily").

Efficiently... yeah. I find the system layers much easier to work with. Outfits using BOM and alpha layers are way easier for me to wear. Click done. Otherwise I was spending a minute adjusting the layer cuts.

Then there were the times the body went glitchy with the auto-alpha and I had to toggle-all and detach/attach clothes to get the auto-alpha to work correctly.

Easily... I think this really depends on the designer. Prior to mesh bodies in the mesh clothes era alpha-layers were a standard part of well made clothes. We thought that was easy and simple because we had learned how it works.

12 hours ago, moirakathleen said:

For clothes I had which didn't come with alpha layers, after I find the alpha layers that work, either from the 2 sets offered by Slink, or the Little Black Dress set, I make a copy of the alpha(s) and put them in the folder with the clothing item - then when I want to wear an item the appropriate alphas are right there, and if you make an outfit, they get saved with the outfit.  There is the initial set-up' time for identifying which alpha layers are needed, but after that, I find it 'easier' than dealing with alpha cuts on a HUD.

YES. 

10 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

A couple of quick points.

  • Alpha layers are, objectively speaking, a better and more efficient method of hiding the body. ...
     
  • No, most people are not going be able, or willing, to create their own alpha layers. ...
     
  • Market forces are neutral: 
     
  • I don't think Maitreya's decision derived from, or took account of, their near-monopoly on women's mesh bodies. What I'm arguing is that the kind of influence that decision will have on the entire industry, including both mesh body makers, and clothing creators, is an index of the fact that they do have a near monopoly. And, whereas I had half-hoped that BOM might loosen their stranglehold on the market somewhat (because the provision of custom alpha layers for clothes makes it easier to fit them to different bodies), I have a suspicion that this will actually solidify their hold. In any case, I think it was a very clever move by Maitreya.
     
  • Were I Slink, I'd be thinking about updating with a new provision for alpha cuts. ... But, objectively, this demonstration of the power of one single maker over its own, and related segments of the economy, should worry us a bit.

Finally: I'm not losing much sleep over this. And I will almost certainly be purchasing a Lara myself very shortly. It's now becoming increasingly obvious that not doing so is going to really restrict my choices as a consumer.

Beyond what you consider good points for eliminating alpha-cuts is the vertex count. Each seam (what Blender, 3D Max, etc. consider a seam) requires the vertices on the seam to be duplicated. Eliminating seams reduces the vertex count.

As to most people not being able to make alpha-layers... you may be right. I hope not. I came to SL with a group from Myst Online. The huge majority of those could not build content for Myst. But, within a year they were building content for SL to replicate Myst here. (There are still some Myst places in SL.) Some have businesses in SL. I think there is hope we will return to more of the time when creating was more a part of SL life.

I agree market forces are neither good or evil. But, they override even the best intentions of governments. Maitrey has won market share by giving people what they wanted. As long as they do a better job of that, they will stay in the lead. I think ARCTan will hit those making heavy-render items harder than ACI hit them. We will have to wait to see how that shakes out.

When a better idea comes along, it tends to win. iOS was once the market leader. Android had 85% of the world market as of 2018. Leaders get challenged. All Maitreya has is the dominate market share. I don't see them as a monopoly. Nor do I see them having excessive influence on the downstream market. THAT is a choice of the designers. But, your points on influence are well made.

I suspect Slink will stay with what they have. As ARCTan is a coming thing, their being the more efficient body is going to improve their position. Also, the system layer thing makes it easier for new people, reducing the learning curve. Give it a year and the majority of new people are likely to find Maitreya or any alpha-cut body too difficult to use.

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@Nalates Urriah

Good points, all. I agree with most of what you say -- and you're right, my language probably seems to overstate the actual position of Maitreya within the market.

I honestly hope that you're right about the influence that ARCTan may have. Not because I'm a particular partisan of Slink, or even of what we've been calling the "puritan" approach to BOM, but simply because I think that a move to alpha layers would be, in the long run, beneficial to the grid, to the market, and to consumers.

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Well I have my update and I love it. BoM is literally a button on the hud, click it and and done. Loving the capability to use alpha layers too, and the save sticks are genius.  HD nipples look nice but not really a thing for me, they don't work on v-tech anyway. Probably won't be using the additional layers either. And my chest and arm mods still work perfectly. 

 

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4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

My point, I guess, is that there is much less inducement now for designers to include their own alphas. For most of them, because Maitreya users will be their largest market by far, it won't be worthwhile doing so. And that means that we've not advanced at all on the old problem of clunky alpha cuts being inadequate to address the complexity of many designs. Standardized sets of alpha layers won't fix that: only layers designed specifically for each particular garment can.

With custom alpha layers, it is far more likely that one can fit something made for Maitreya to a Belleza, Altamura, or Slink body. Without them, that's much less likely (as, believe me, I can attest from personal experience).

I get what you're saying here Scylla, but I think your point would be far stronger if Maitreya's update could not make use of an alpha layer. It can. Which means a creator still has to choose between setting up auto-alpha scripts for every individual body they choose to fit to (as well as tweaking the fit itself to coincide with the alpha slices as best as possible); or making a single alpha layer. There's no disincentive towards creators including alpha layers with their products here; it's both less effort and creatively liberating for them to do so.

I get that removing alpha slices entirely would be a powerful incentive for creators; but that comes at a cost that is unjustifiably steep, given the alternatives available.

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2 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

I get what you're saying here Scylla, but I think your point would be far stronger if Maitreya's update could not make use of an alpha layer. It can. Which means a creator still has to choose between setting up auto-alpha scripts for every individual body they choose to fit to (as well as tweaking the fit itself to coincide with the alpha slices as best as possible); or making a single alpha layer. There's no disincentive towards creators including alpha layers with their products here; it's both less effort and creatively liberating for them to do so.

I get that removing alpha slices entirely would be a powerful incentive for creators; but that comes at a cost that is unjustifiably steep, given the alternatives available.

I very much hope you're right. You may well be: I guess we'll see over time.

Someone above had suggested that they've started to see alpha layers included with new clothing. I myself haven't yet, but it's early days still.

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1 hour ago, anna2358 said:

My dad (RIP) used to ask me to change the VCR.  I think I was about 3.  He could never quite get the hang of all the buttons.

   Yes, but that's something else.

   If you are in Second Life, you are by default at a computer (or phone) and have an Internet connection, and know how to open a web browser. Making an alpha is something that you have been able to do in SL pretty much 'forever', so there's no shortage of guides and how-to's - and the content of them boils down to 'download the image of the avatar's UV map, i.e. the map of what goes where when using a texture on it, and paint white whatever you want to disappear, upload it into SL and make an alpha with the texture'. 

   I don't mind people asking questions for what they don't know or understand, I don't assume that anyone has any given knowledge inherently - but when the attitude is 'You ruined it for ME - I'm taking my business elsewhere' rather than 'Oh, you've changed how this works to promote better performance for everyone - I should look into how that works', it's an attitude issue, not a skill issue.

2 minutes ago, AyelaNewLife said:

I get what you're saying here Scylla, but I think your point would be far stronger if Maitreya's update could not make use of an alpha layer. It can. Which means a creator still has to choose between setting up auto-alpha scripts for every individual body they choose to fit to (as well as tweaking the fit itself to coincide with the alpha slices as best as possible); or making a single alpha layer.

   I would always (and will, now that it's a possibility) wear an alpha rather than an auto-hide script. Whether the script is running or not, most meters count the amount of scripts and their latency; and if your top, bottom and shoes all have alpha slice scripts in them, that's just a bunch of superfluous scripts. Whether it's heavy or not, superfluous scripts are just that, and even if each individually doesn't do much, the fact that the vast majority of attachments these days has scripts in them that you can't remove (because nothing's modifiable these days), it all adds up, and if you have an event where you've got 10-20 people hopping in and out at any given minute, it's just an unnecessary strain. 

   It may be the only downside to the update so far - if footwear now is going to contain a foot shape changer, that's more scripts that are a quality of life for an instant but in the end probably do more bad than good, then it's better to just set your foot shape, use the save stick, save your outfit with it, pop it on, click it to adjust your body's settings, take it off, and you're good to go.

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2 hours ago, Orwar said:

 (it's so easy a 5-year old could make their own alphas - if only the SL userbase on average wasn't more tech-inept than 5-year olds ... *sighs dreamily*)

I have 700-800 bits of clothing in my clothing folder. About a third of those are in trash subfolders, a further third may have been worn once or twice; but that still leaves 200+ alphas that I'd need to manually make just to make my wardrobe usable. 

While I fully get your point about the tech ineptitude of your average SL resident - just watching some of my larger groups today has aged me, I truly do know your pain here - there's also the effort barrier to consider for others. I have a job, and an hour-long commute; life's too short for some things.

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