I've got a bridge to sell you...

[Seicher Rae]

Here's a weird thing for me to do in a thread... pull it back to the OP.   Since I'm learning Black Dragon viewer, I thought I'd take some pictures of the current LL Houseboat. I love it because it abuts the land, which is sandy and arid and reminds me a little of Northern California where I used to live. The close up of the loft shows I was not lying in the earlier post when I described the horrendous housekeeping.   I don't like the angle of the first photo but it was the only way I could get the neon sign on the ceiling. If your home describes your personality, then...   I think the animated girl with the umbrella one of Cica Ghost's old works and the steampunk spider crawling up the upper deck speaks volumes. . .

 

[Lindal Kidd]

I had a number of things to say further about taxes...but since we seem to have got back on track, I'wll hlld mah tongth.  (It'th vwy hawd to thpeak when hlldng yowr tongth.)

Thanks, Tolya.  Happy Tuesday to you!

[Pussycat Catnap]

On topic? What kind of heresy is that?

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Pussycat Catnap

[Tolya Ugajin]

4 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

Here's a weird thing for me to do in a thread... pull it back to the OP.   Since I'm learning Black Dragon viewer, I thought I'd take some pictures of the current LL Houseboat. I love it because it abuts the land, which is sandy and arid and reminds me a little of Northern California where I used to live. The close up of the loft shows I was not lying in the earlier post when I described the horrendous housekeeping.   I don't like the angle of the first photo but it was the only way I could get the neon sign on the ceiling. If your home describes your personality, then...   I think the animated girl with the umbrella one of Cica Ghost's old works and the steampunk spider crawling up the upper deck speaks volumes. . .

 

Thanks, Seicher - lovely picks, and thanks for distracting us from politics!

[Tari Landar]

but..I want to discuss avocados! 

They're a pain in the ass to get here, because they're expensive, and not always very good (they are definitely taken far too soon from their trees, tbh). They're also definitely not a thing here, even though some people will tell you that they are (in the bigger cities people like to pretend to be hip, but they're not as good at "trending" as they think they are...I digress....), those people are lying, or just taking their cues from other places, I suppose. People do like them, of course, I do too, depending on how it's being used (my son and I could live off guac for days...ours is amazing 😛 ). But they'll never be very cheap here, and i'm lucky if I can get one for under $3.   That's too much money on a single piece of fruit, when we need multiple pieces of this fruit per person to truly enjoy it, all of which will ripen when they're damn good and ready and never at the same time, and certainly not within the first few days after purchasing.  Sometimes they'll go both good and bad in the same day even. We have weird avocados, I guess, we probably get all the misfits. I wouldn't mind if they weren't expensive.

We have the same problem with milk (as in, it being expensive, not being unripe, lol), which is beyond ironic considering most milk in this state COMES from this state, and the increase in cost is most definitely not justified..sigh. 

This is why I need an indoor garden, or, a greenhouse if you wanna be a jerk about it   So I can create an entire area to grow things not native to anywhere near here, and save a LOT of money doing it.  I can grow things that work well here too, of course, and things that should grow well but don't for whatever reason, and also save money. Should that happen, I will also get a buttload (whose butt is yet to be determined) of professional quality freeze dryers, so we can have foods for eons....or partial eons anyway. 

ok, back to your topic now...it wasn't really a derail, just a  penny on the track  

[BelindaN]

Land? Not bothered. I love my ancient Linden home on a super quiet sim. I don't get enough time in world to be bothered with land, even though the idea of being queen of all I survey is appealing.

Avocados? Very high in vitamin c so because I have an intolerance (don't ask), I can only take a small amount.

VAT? Origins in France I believe, and compulsory in the EU, although rates are not standardised by country. At the end of the week, the UK could replace it with something else, and have already mentioned doing this. Of course, something else won't be any cheaper.

[Luna Bliss]

18 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

So, you'd rely on a film maker who is quite open about espousing a political agenda but you're skeptical of the government agency which literally is responsible for overseeing and documenting all incoming receipts and disbursing outgoing checks?  That's like saying you'll take your kid's word on your household budget over your financial advisor's.

By the way, I've found a lot of Americans think things are "free" in other countries when they are not.  I frequently hear Canadians, for instance, complain about how expensive college is and they laugh when I tell them "oh college is free in Canada, just ask any Americans".  Pretty sure it's not free in Britain, either.  So, don't be so quick to assume all that is "free" in those other countries, despite their high tax rates.

I specifically said......"You can fact check all that, summed up nicely in a funny clip from one of Michael Moore's movies, comparing France & the US:"
In other words, providing an entertaining and dumbed-down summation, no matter who the author, so that another gets the gist of an argument is often the best way to start a conversation. And I encouraged you to fact check his points -- the points would be more believable if you looked them up yourself right?

College is free or nearly free in many European countries. In some countries one has to pay for books or there is a means test so that wealthier families will pay at least something.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/080616/6-countries-virtually-free-college-tuition.asp

[Luna Bliss]

18 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

The idea "hidden fees" (by which is normally meant "what you spend on your own instead of what would be paid by the government in the EU") are the same as taxes is sophomoric at best.  A "tax" is a mandatory payment for everyone.  Whether or not I need or choose to go to the doctor - whether for chemo or a just doctor's note to get out of work, and pay the bill, is a choice.

It's not a silly comparison at all, and it's a point we need to address for the sake of less-wealthy citizens in the US.
In many other first world countries certain basic needs are automatically being provided to to all citizens, even poor ones...services like medical care, child care, and education. In America, the poor go without needed child care, medical care, and education if we can't pay for them.
In other words, it's only the wealthy in America that have this "choice" that you speak of.

People are dying here, children are suffering. People should think twice before feeling smug about the fact that we pay less formal taxes in the US. There's no value in structuring a society so that poorer citizens suffer.

[Tolya Ugajin]

46 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It's not a silly comparison at all, and it's a point we need to address for the sake of less-wealthy citizens in the US.
In many other first world countries certain basic needs are automatically being provided to to all citizens, even poor ones...services like medical care, child care, and education. In America, the poor go without needed child care, medical care, and education if we can't pay for them.
In other words, it's only the wealthy in America that have this "choice" that you speak of.

People are dying here, children are suffering. People should think twice before feeling smug about the fact that we pay less formal taxes in the US. There's no value in structuring a society so that poorer citizens suffer.

So, what you're saying is, there are only poor and wealthy in the US?  And, people do not have choices of what education to pursue?  I'd point out that top private universities, such as Harvard, Tufts, Yale, etc. are perfectly willing to give poor students who are top performers free tuition - my own daughter qualified and I am hardly "poor".  Or to finish high school?  Or to work their way through school?  They cannot choose between getting a films studies degree and be unemployable rather than pursue a career in the trades, where tens of thousands of high paying jobs go unfilled because kids are brainwashed into thinking they HAVE to get a university degree?

People do not have the choice of whether or not to procreate?  Whether or not to get married?  Or are we supposed to believe that, in an age when primary school kids are taught about butt sex that they don't know how babies are made and how to prevent it?

And, believe it or not, lots of people "choose" to go to the doctor when they have absolutely no need to.  This is why insurers came up with the ideas of deductibles and copays - to stop people going to the doctor for every headache or sniffle.

What you are actually doing is insisting that those who make good life choices subsidize the poor life choices of others.  For instance, if you finish high school, get a full time job (which, there are more available today than available workers to fill them), and put off having kids until you're married and over 21, you have a VERY small chance of falling into poverty.  All three of those are decisions that pretty much every American can make.  The vast majority of full time employees have access to employer-sponsored health care, heck even McDonald's offers it.  Even minimum wage jobs provide advancement opportunity - to those who choose to work hard and actually be reliable.  Most fast food managers, for instance, started as minimum wage burger flippers and are making middle-income salaries, WITHOUT an education.

For many of us who are opposed to an ever expanding welfare state, taxes are not the main issue.  The corrosive effect of "free stuff" on society is, followed by the gross inefficiency whenever the government gets involved.  For instance, 8 years ago when my oldest started pricing colleges, we looked at the local state university and Ivy League schools. Since 1985, when I was doing the same thing, the publicly run and publicly funded university had gone up 10-fold for tuition.  Privately run and funded MIT and Harvard had just barely doubled.  I wonder why?  Could it be because one has to figure out how to run efficiently, and the other has an inexhaustible teat to feed from?

I'm getting to be TL/DR and rambling trying to respond between work phone calls, so I'll leave you with one quick thought - I don't know anyone, even the most frothing lunatic right winger, who doesn't support a good safety net for those who are truly incapable of providing for their own well being.  We just knew 30 years ago that the never ending welfare state would eventually lead to what we have today in the US - Sanders, Warren, and company outright bribing the electorate with a never ending list of "free stuff" and not caring a bit how to pay for it, and not caring that people tend not to value or use wisely that which came to them at no cost.

 

[Lindal Kidd]

People of the liberal persuasion should very carefully read this bit at the end of Tolya's post above before condemning conservatives as being without compassion:

" I don't know anyone, even the most frothing lunatic right winger, who doesn't support a good safety net for those who are truly incapable of providing for their own well being."

 

[Luna Bliss]

31 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

People of the liberal persuasion should very carefully read this bit at the end of Tolya's post above before condemning conservatives as being without compassion:

" I don't know anyone, even the most frothing lunatic right winger, who doesn't support a good safety net for those who are truly incapable of providing for their own well being."

Lindall I don't think you, or Tolya, are uncaring people who would want others to needlessly suffer -- if that were the case I wouldn't even be debating with you.
What I do think is that you are missing some important facts, and because of this you might support policies which favor the wealthy over those in poverty.
I might be missing some important facts too.
Debates on important issues can be of value.

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Lots of mostly unfounded fears about others getting something for nothing...

I am all for self-responsibility and making good choices when individuals are able to do so. However it doesn't appear that you realize not all people are able to make good choices, and because they are not to blame they should not be punished if they do not have the skills some of us who are more fortunate do.
My background is in Social Work and I've seen the suffering imposed by people too fixated on "choices " and who blame others who should not be blamed. Often, people who blame others have little understanding of reality unless it's something they've experienced themselves.  They have diminished understanding of the effects that experiences like bad parenting, mental illness, physical illness, and extreme poverty can have on a person -- effects that make it very difficult if not impossible to succeed. We should not punish disadvantaged people just because we were perhaps able to make better choices -- we need to walk a mile in their shoes instead -- and I can guarantee that we'd do no better than the people we're blaming.

There's no reason, in our wealthy society, that we can't provide basic support to people who need it. I've never been talking about people who do not deserve help (people trying to game the system, thieves, those who think they deserve the freeeee). So why do you go there...assume that anyone getting services from the government does not deserve the help?

Let's take the one example you brought up -- couples who you say should have chosen not to have a child. How is this really a choice for the woman, especially at a young age, when too many young males are out there humping on everything they can find, and a girl is brought up to please others in order to be loved? What do we do with the children that are born from this all too common dynamic?
Child care is easily $10,000 per year ($200 per week). The annual earnings for a full-time minimum-wage worker is $15,080 at the current federal minimum wage of $7.25 (although some states have higher minimum wages). So a single mother earning 15k per year cannot afford child care of 10k per year.
Do we make the child suffer, have less food and medical care, be less able to afford higher education that might create a better life?
No, the solution is to provide free/almost free child care like civilized European countries provide, along with training for a better-paying job.

What I am wanting is for the wealthy corporations and individuals, those who receive 'corporate welfare' and pay little or no taxes, to pay their fair share again to increase the social safety net needed to eliminate severe poverty in the US. If we need Bernie Sanders to bring us back to this scenario so be it. A so-called centrist Democrat, a Clinton or an Obama, won't do it -- they are tied to the corporate donors and would only perpetuate the neoliberalism that is favoring the wealthy by funneling an unfair share to the top, and allowing certain corporations to go on destroying the planet.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Solar Legion]

I've lived in a few places within Second Life over the years and sadly do not really have any pictures of them to share. I presently hold a 4096 on a private region and an old school Linden Home. The former is open to guests - it's on Hoch, parcel The Wolf Den.

Do be warned that there are at least two private areas, so if you decide to go flying to circumvent the teleporter system .... expect to be rather harshly kicked.

[Tolya Ugajin]

15 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I am all for self-responsibility and making good choices when individuals are able to do so. However it doesn't appear that you realize not all people are able to make good choices, and because they are not to blame they should not be punished if they do not have the skills some of us who are more fortunate do.
My background is in Social Work and I've seen the suffering imposed by people too fixated on "choices " and who blame others who should not be blamed. Often, people who blame others have little understanding of reality unless it's something they've experienced themselves.  They have diminished understanding of the effects that experiences like bad parenting, mental illness, physical illness, and extreme poverty can have on a person -- effects that make it very difficult if not impossible to succeed. We should not punish disadvantaged people just because we were perhaps able to make better choices -- we need to walk a mile in their shoes instead -- and I can guarantee that we'd do no better than the people we're blaming.

There's no reason, in our wealthy society, that we can't provide basic support to people who need it. I've never been talking about people who do not deserve help (people trying to game the system, thieves, those who think they deserve the freeeee). So why do you go there...assume that anyone getting services from the government does not deserve the help?

Let's take the one example you brought up -- couples who you say should have chosen not to have a child. How is this really a choice for the woman, especially at a young age, when too many young males are out there humping on everything they can find, and a girl is brought up to please others in order to be loved? What do we do with the children that are born from this all too common dynamic?
Child care is easily $10,000 per year ($200 per week). The annual earnings for a full-time minimum-wage worker is $15,080 at the current federal minimum wage of $7.25 (although some states have higher minimum wages). So a single mother earning 15k per year cannot afford child care of 10k per year.
Do we make the child suffer, have less food and medical care, be less able to afford higher education that might create a better life?
No, the solution is to provide free/almost free child care like civilized European countries provide, along with training for a better-paying job.

What I am wanting is for the wealthy corporations and individuals, those who receive 'corporate welfare' and pay little or no taxes, to pay their fair share again to increase the social safety net needed to eliminate severe poverty in the US. If we need Bernie Sanders to bring us back to this scenario so be it. A so-called centrist Democrat, a Clinton or an Obama, won't do it -- they are tied to the corporate donors and would only perpetuate the neoliberalism that is favoring the wealthy by funneling an unfair share to the top, and allowing certain corporations to go on destroying the planet.

I dunno, because I've seen it.  The employee I who was so proud when he qualified for subsidized housing and so cut his hours way back.  The employee (this in Canada, BTW) who didn't like the commute to the new office so she used every possible leave program she could use while supposedly unable to work (while filling her facebook with all her fun activities that made it real clear should could be doing her normal desk job just fine).  The "garden leave" every time a German, Danish, or British employee is on the verge of being fired (or often times even when they wanted to quit).  Or how about Obama saying on live TV it would be just fine if people stopped working to take advantage of government provided health care?

I'm not even going to comment on your "girls can't control getting pregnant" bit.  I'll leave it for the women in the audience who believe women are more than helpless toys for men to respond to that nonsense.

You bring up "fair share".  Kindly define what IS the "fair share".  Because from what I can tell, 40-50% of Americans paying no federal income taxes is a fine example of not paying their "fair share" - and that's not the rich people!  I can tell you folks in other countries are quite shocked when they hear about that, because if you're working in Europe, you're paying income taxes, and lots of them, along with 25% sales tax in places like Denmark. 

"Corporate welfare"?  You may want to do a little research, as most of the tax credits, deductions, etc. (the "welfare" you reference) primarily benefit not the rich and corporations, but the poor and middle class.  A handful of companies end up in the news each year because through whatever fluke they pay no income taxes, and folks who don't read beyond the headlines raise a hue and cry as if it's every company, but ignore the millions of people who experience negative taxation when their tax credits are so generous are hundreds and often thousands of dollars more than their tax burden.

I'd really like to hear your idea of what a "fair share" of taxes is, because I have a very logical one that would be hard to argue against.  Really, what is the "fair share" for someone earning $30K?  $100K?  $500K?  $10MM? 

[Luna Bliss]

45 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

I'm not even going to comment on your "girls can't control getting pregnant" bit.  I'll leave it for the women in the audience who believe women are more than helpless toys for men to respond to that nonsense.

Tolya, are you even debating in good faith? Accusing me, a staunch feminist, of believing women can't control themselves...and then appealing to other women to rebel against me in your defense. Really, I'm not sure I should continue this debate with you.
Should I be insulted because you're attempting to dishonestly manipulate the discussion or just assume you're not too bright about brain development. I'll assume the latter and attempt to inform.
Brain development doesn't mature until around age 25 (and you KNOW I was referring to GIRLS because I used that word). 
Until brains are fully developed such abilities as decision making, impulse control, logical & organized thinking, & risk management do not work as well.

https://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/02/18/at-what-age-is-the-brain-fully-developed/
Again, this is a summation of the issue for easy reading and not indicative of the most renowned researcher on the planet. You can easily research scientific studies for proof, though I'm afraid it's not referenced in the governmental facts you like to tout.

You also seem to be unaware of how gender socialization affects people, and how this can be difficult to overcome and so influence people's decision making on various issues.

I'll address some of your other points later after calming down, lest this tree I'm working on ends up looking like something from hell....

[Tari Landar]

31 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Let's take the one example you brought up -- couples who you say should have chosen not to have a child. How is this really a choice for the woman, especially at a young age, when too many young males are out there humping on everything they can find, and a girl is brought up to please others in order to be loved? What do we do with the children that are born from this all too common dynamic?
Child care is easily $10,000 per year ($200 per week). The annual earnings for a full-time minimum-wage worker is $15,080 at the current federal minimum wage of $7.25 (although some states have higher minimum wages). So a single mother earning 15k per year cannot afford child care of 10k per year.
Do we make the child suffer, have less food and medical care, be less able to afford higher education that might create a better life?
No, the solution is to provide free/almost free child care like civilized European countries provide, along with training for a better-paying job.

Super, super long, and a bit more direct than I usually am, but...warranted for this kind of topic (especially when someone thinks offending an entire nation is a good idea)

TLDR; teach a man to fish....... (typos blah, blah, blah..)

 

I don't often get into these debates, but I have some serious concerns that you're even remotely speaking the truth about your life experiences in social work, based on what I have bolded above. NO social worker would ever say something so absolutely horrendously stupid, and expect to be taken seriously. They want to END the need for social programs, help people find a way out of them and better themselves,  not increase it by saying "oh you poor dear, you just HAD To have sex, it was out of your control". I can't even come to terms with such idiocy. 

How little faith do you have in others that you TRULY believe women have no control, at all, over their own reproductive health?  I am not even certain I can begin to explain how absolutely idiotic and ridiculous such statements are. Birth control methods are free in most areas of our country, and if not one's direct area, nearby areas, condoms are free in every single public health institution in the country(yes, even ERs, oddly enough), most private ones too. Even things like actual birth control pills can be found free or at a very reduced cost, even here and we don't even HAVE public clinics or anything like that.....and abstinence is always free. Yes some girls are brought up to think that sex=love (so are some boys, so let's not play the gender compare game, it's stupid), but that doesn't mean these girls, these women have no control at all over getting pregnant, or boys and men have no options either. Save for few instances such as rape (and I am not defending or justifying that instance before you go off on your woe is me tirade and get some other sock puppet in here to do so as well, those instances happen and they are HORRIBLE, but they are few and far between, not even remotely typical) women, and girls absolutely can ABSTAIN. All schools, even private ones, in the US teach some form of sex ed, they teach where babies come from, most teach about STDs, so the whole "We're ignorant as to where babies come from" excuse is as piss poor an excuse as it comes in today's culture. 

I AM someone who got pregnant young, and it was through my own CHOICES that I did, I had sex, and made poor choices for birth control (ie, none), no one did that for me. I don't regret those choices that I made, but they are still very much MY choices, just as they are for the vast majority of others. Don't friggen tell me I had no choice, don't tell me most have no choice...of course we do, it's ignorant to even suggest otherwise (I can't even begin to explain just how ignorant that belief truly is). You're mixing "what happens after X happens" with "how do we prevent X from happening", and it's a stupid comparison, they are two separate issues, entirely, even if they might be related. 

I also am someone that works closely with and for people who are down on their luck, families who are struggling, individuals that need help...and the difference between most of them and stupid things like this, is that they'll willingly admit that yes, sometimes their life choices lead them to where they are..and we ALL Have choices, even the most destitute. We may not LIKE our choices, and we may not be able to change them once we make them, but we do have them. They want out of it, they don't want to disregard their own hand in how they got there, because they don't want to end up right back where they are later. That's reality, not your little fantasy land of "no one has a hand in how they get where they are in life", you're not helping ANYONE with that kind of attitude and it's so maddening....ugh, I can't wrap my head around it.  You cannot offer a hand up or a hand out, without first accepting that prevention of the problem may have been on the table at one point or another. Even if it no longer is, even if someone seemingly did everything they thought they possibly could, at the time, you have to be able to admit that we have a much larger hand in things than people are willing to admit...and that you very well may be part of the problem. I've been that person that did everything, at the time, seemingly right, and still fell on very hard times, losing my home, losing everything, while having a family to care for and a young child living on death's door (in and out of the hospital, at a few points on life support, etc.)....I GET struggle on levels I can't even begin to explain. I am not in any way knocking that, or suggesting ***** can't happen, but I"m also not a liar, and not willing to say I had NO hand in it. THAT's how I got OUT of needing as much help as I once did (and I freely admit that sometimes, I still need help), and figuring out how to make my choices work better for me, use what help I could get and then later be able to return that help ten fold to others. Sometimes ***** does happen, and that's why we have the help we do, but it's not a lifestyle worth living on a constant and consistent basis, and it's not conducive to a productive society, or even family home. It's problematic in many ways and we're not meant to live off assistance for our entire lives unless we literally have no other choice (and more than 99% of us do have choices, stop pretending we don't!!)

Help should exist, and it very much does, let's not pretend that it doesn't. I am surrounded by people that need it, I am and have been someone that needs/needed it. I Know the situation from the inside out..and you just pretend you do from the outside, which pisses me off to no end and only reiterates what I said about white knights in a previous thread.  You aren't helping a gol darn soul with your faux concern. You are, in fact, putting every single person that does need help at one point or another back decades. Offer them a hand up and teach them how to stay up and you'll be helping them. Give them a hand out, fail to explain how to stay up, and fail to hold them responsible for their future, and you're just going to have to keep doling out those hand outs, no one gets anywhere in that society (and many other nations fight with this very issue constantly, which you've failed to acknowledge repeatedly). While people like me work for and towards a better outcome for all, you just want people to rely on assistance from everyone else and not work towards helping themselves and being part of the solution. We make organizations that help, that teach, that assist. We provide opportunities, we provide education that tries to undo the absolutely awful advice of "oh you poor dear you don't know any better" people like you are doing. We offer hands up, not a hand out, and that is better for all. A hand out is temporary help, a hand up, is far more valuable and will escalate into a whole nation of hands up. That should be our ultimate goal not "every other nation has free stuffs, we need free stuffs too"

Your ignorance on just how "free" things get to be "free" in other countries just.....I don't know how in the hell anyone could have a conversation with someone of that mindset. It is not rocket surgery, but that belief most definitely makes it seem like so. It all boils down to this... what you think is "free" in other nations, isn't actually free. People ALL pay for those benefits in one way, or another, it comes at a cost, it doesn't just magically show up some day on the back of a unicorn farting rainbows and cupcakes. The fact that WE don't have some of them, in the same forms, doesn't mean we have none. Different nations structure things differently, but stuff doesn't magically appear out of thin air, the cost comes from us all, in one way or another. The vast majority of those on assistance in this country also pay for their own assistance as well, you have such a skewed view of things you can't possibly see this though. Many of these nations that offer "free"(Insert whatever) also have higher instances of people NEEDING that assistance than we do., which one would think would speak volumes to someone that claims to work in social work.

There are a lot of things we need in this nation, including a complete overhaul of our entire welfare and social assistance programs, our educational system(first and foremost, as it will lead to things such as better training, better career paths, more financial security...)...and god knows how many other areas. But providing "more free stuff" is not the answer when we can't afford to provide what we already do. We need to start with personal accountability, and supplement it with assistance when and where necessary..not simply assume we're all supposed to get everything "For free" Based off some idiotic belief that "Free" actually means "Without cost".

Also, yes, corporations in this nation do get a lot of breaks, some that they don't need, and some probably don't deserve (when you look at it from the outside in)...but how the hell do you expect people to get employment when businesses are struggling too? How do we help all? 

SOME corporations are merely greedy jack in the boxes that I wouldn't wipe my rear end with (so are some people...cheetoh in charge being one of them), absolutely, and some are definitely corrupt from the top down (And you can't blame those on lower tiers for that), but that has absolutely sod all to do with social welfare and assistance programs...again you're comparing things that don't even reasonably FIT in a comparison.  Corporate greed, of which there is plenty the world over (and most other nations are worse than us on this one..so I dunno where you're going with that) has little to no bearing on us, as a nation, being willing to offer a hand up and not a hand out. We need more of the former, and less of the latter. Sometimes, yes, businesses, like humans, struggle, even if YOU can't see it and just see it all as greed. Yes, sometimes it seems like some businesses get tax breaks they shouldn't, but are you really the best judge of that when you can't see their books, don't, seem, to understand how "tax breaks" work, and, clearly, have no experience owning a business that is or has struggled?

You (like we all) want people to have better lives, better training, better education...where the hell are we getting the money for all of this and how are businesses supposed to provide it? You're not providing it, you just want to coddle people, tell them "there there" and pretend they can't help themselves...so, who shoulders the brunt of the blow.....oh, yes, businesses and those with more money...just like EVERY OTHER NATION on the planet. Maybe you should take a pay cut, that will certainly help, right? I don't get paid to do the social work I do, except in watching people emerge from the ashes they once felt stuck in do better and be better,  and frankly, I'm perfectly okay with that. How about you work for free for a few years, that should free up some money for someone else. But wait...you have bills to pay, right....so do others, including businesses. I really don't think you understand how taxes, or most businesses work, at all, lol. Businesses may seem to get more tax breaks to you, but they also pay more than you and have far more cost than any of us. I've actually owned businesses, with actual employees (yes, brick and mortar businesses) it is not nearly as cut and dry as you think. One wrong move, and just like any family...everything crumbles. Who is going to help the business though, and by trickle down, everyone that benefits from that business, like, employees? Clearly, not you, you just think they should all get welfare and we'll all be hunky dory.......without realizing, the cycle starts all over again when that happens. 

 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Pussycat Catnap

[Tolya Ugajin]

3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Tolya, are you even debating in good faith? Accusing me, a staunch feminist, of believing women can't control themselves...and then appealing to other women to rebel against me in your defense. Really, I'm not sure I should continue this debate with you.
Should I be insulted because you're attempting to dishonestly manipulate the discussion or just assume you're not too bright about brain development. I'll assume the latter and attempt to inform.
Brain development doesn't mature until around age 25 (and you KNOW I was referring to GIRLS because I used that word). 
Until brains are fully developed such abilities as decision making, impulse control, logical & organized thinking, & risk management do not work as well.

https://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/02/18/at-what-age-is-the-brain-fully-developed/
Again, this is a summation of the issue for easy reading and not indicative of the most renowned researcher on the planet. You can easily research scientific studies for proof, though I'm afraid it's not referenced in the governmental facts you like to tout.

You also seem to be unaware of how gender socialization affects people, and how this can be difficult to overcome and so influence people's decision making on various issues.

I'll address some of your other points later after calming down, lest this tree I'm working on ends up looking like something from hell....

The claim that girls can't choose to not have sex or at least insist on birth control is insulting to women and to the intelligence of the reader.

Talking about "brain maturation" is a red herring.  Your reasoning that "oh they don't have impulse control because their brains aren't fully developed" fails due to one simple fact: less than 2% (19 in 1,000) of women 15-19 in the US have babies before age 18.  Even if you claim "it's higher for minority girls", you're right, but at under 3% it's hardly a stunningly higher figure.  By any measure, under 15 is not them having sex, by statute it's them being raped, but those numbers aren't even a rounding error - 0.02%.  So, explain exactly how your proposition works?  97%+ of all girls are able to make the decisions that lead to NOT getting pregnant, but the other <3% are to be passed off as biologically incapable of deciding not to breed?

You can be as staunch a feminist as you want, but that is a ridiculous argument based on the numbers alone.

https://www.childtrends.org/indicators/teen-births

Please don't stop working on your tree - you have some of the best landscaping on SL   And working on a new tree will be far more profitable for you.

Finally, the government facts I "like to tout" are the actual FACTS, because they are the source of any data for taxes, spending, deficits, etc.  I find it humorous you want to poo poo government provided data yet keep calling for bigger government.

[Tari Landar]

I forgot something, but it's super important for people who don't live int he US to understand the kind of assistance we DO have. 

Using the example given...minimum wage...that mother would qualify to receive: full childcare , Medicaid for her child and herself, WIC (women infants and children, they provide some basic foods, formulas, even prescription ones, etc. for pregnant and nursing mothers, infants and children up to age 5) food assistance...all completely "Free" to her (minus the portion of her taxes, like yours and mine which go towards assistance), potentially rent and utility assistance, and possibly even cash assistance.....in every single state in this great nation, based on the federal poverty level (state and local play no role whatsoever). A social worker would actually know this, but it can also be found online with a quick search, for anyone who isn't.

The difference between us and other nations, is that the majority of those who actually qualify for those assistance benefits, don't actually pursue them all and we don't willingly tell everyone they should, whereas it is the norm to suggest and accept it in many other nations for generation upon generation (which may contribute to why it seems "free" in those nations...). We tell people to get what they need, while and when they need it, and try to make your station in life better while doing so.  We are slowly moving away from the generational destitution, though we have a long way to go, it just chaps my hide to see people that want to perpetuate it instead of ending it. 

 

[Tolya Ugajin]

21 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

LOL EL/TLTQ

 

 

My mom got pregnant at 17, had 5 kids before her brain was supposedly matured well enough to decide to stop having unprotected sex.  She got married at 18, 4 months pregnant.  She was a housewife until age 29.  Dad was a gas station attendant, then a mechanic, and joined the reserves and took odd jobs to make more money.  Neither of them came from affluent backgrounds.  One grandma was a housewife and that grandpa a carpenter, the other grandma ran a weiner-skinning machine in a factory and that grandpa was often unemployed.  Nobody in our family tree going back to Germany in the mid-1800's had ever seen the inside of a college unless they were painting the wall.  The whole family history was being among the working poor or low end of middle class.  Yet, we did not starve, and we never utilized any welfare programs, and none of us ended up dying.  We worked, and we went without.

If Luna wants to make an argument about teenage pregnancy, the smart arguments would be to highlight how the girl cannot force the boy to get married and be responsible as a father, or that the child indeed cannot take care of itself and had no choice but to be born, and we'd find agreement on the need to have a safety net for the kid.  But, that's a far call from free health care for all, free college, etc. all paid for by charging the 50% of the population that pays 97% of the taxes to pay even more.

 

[Luna Bliss]

40 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

I don't often get into these debates, but I have some serious concerns that you're even remotely speaking the truth about your life experiences in social work, based on what I have bolded above. NO social worker would ever say something so absolutely horrendously stupid, and expect to be taken seriously. They want to END the need for social programs, help people find a way out of them and better themselves,  not increase it by saying "oh you poor dear, you just HAD To have sex, it was out of your control". I can't even come to terms with such idiocy. 

How little faith do you have in others that you TRULY believe women have no control, at all, over their own reproductive health?  I am not even certain I can begin to explain how absolutely idiotic and ridiculous such statements are. Birth control methods are free in most areas of our country

Tari you are projecting so much of your stuff onto me and assuming I mean things that I do not, that I really don't know where to begin.
I don't believe in coddling anyone, and have no idea why you believe that having compassion for another's situation would mean I wouldn't try to assist them to be the best they can be. 
People simply are not in full control until around age 25 (and even after that I have doubts...but that's another issue..lol). Science proves it...frontal lobe brain capacity is not fully developed until then, and it's more likely that bad decisions are made. This DOES NOT absolve them of all responsibility, but it can cause us to view them with more compassion, and offer help to make their lives better.

What I'm mainly defending against is this Ayn Rand notion so prevalent among those who disparage the poor -- the notion that everybody can pull themselves up by their bootstraps and if they don't they are to blame and so we should not give them a dime. The reality is that for many receiving financial aid they are doing the best they can. Have you ever seen someone with bipolar depression try to cope?  You can't just say "hey, come down off that high and get to work like everybody else does". Their mind is going 90 miles and hour because their brain chemistry is off -- there is no moral failing occurring.
You can't tell someone afflicted with Schizophrenia to "just stop hallucinating" and do your job!
Likewise, if a woman had a child too young when her brain was not evaluating consequences clearly (or even if it was and she made a clear mistake in starting a family too early or thinking her husband would always provide and so further schooling for herself was a waste) we should think of the child's welfare and provide the assistance needed so the child won't suffer, as well as offering a way out of poverty with job training.

Pointing to the difficulties that we all face in life that make it difficult to succeed does not mean we are not responsible to create the best life we can. It only shows the way for a more compassionate society through greater awareness of the challenges people face, and illustrates ways we can help society function better.

Maybe later I'll read the rest of your post, but I fear it's just an elaboration of how you mischaracterized my beliefs.

[Luna Bliss]

25 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Please don't stop working on your tree - you have some of the best landscaping on SL   And working on a new tree will be far more profitable for you.

Well thank you but it's not the best -- I'd give any gardener a run for their money though.

But anyway, I'm working on another grid atm so no new trees here...

Edited January 29, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

27 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Finally, the government facts I "like to tout" are the actual FACTS, because they are the source of any data for taxes, spending, deficits, etc.  I find it humorous you want to poo poo government provided data yet keep calling for bigger government.

I like Science data...it's less likely to be influenced by political agendas (but it can be).

[Luna Bliss]

29 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Talking about "brain maturation" is a red herring.  Your reasoning that "oh they don't have impulse control because their brains aren't fully developed" fails due to one simple fact: less than 2% (19 in 1,000) of women 15-19 in the US have babies before age 18. 

Half of babies are born to women under the age of 25:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/295731/us-pregnancy-rates-by-age/

[Beth Macbain]

Not for nuthin', but the Federal Poverty Guideline for a family of 4 is $26,200. That's not for each member of the family - that's for all of them. And that's some bullsh*t. 

I would rather pay... hell, freaking every cent I earn in taxes if it meant that everyone in this country (or world, ideally) had food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare. 

That's just being human.