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3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

You would not believe the intensity of hate in the conservative area where I live in RL.....they act as if Satan Herself was taking over the general populace if gender norms are not adhered to   :(     The religious stuff here is very strong.  Unfortunately some of these people end up in SL..

They do. And in the process they tend to righteously earn their time spent clutching their pearls on the fainting couch. And the fact that some of us know scripture better than they do and might even have the right to be called "reverend" even if we don't claim it *really* twists their tails.

Edited by Da5id Weatherwax
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17 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Likewise, the person portraying the role would not freak out and become unable to play that role anymore or feel it was "ruined" if the others discovered they were not really a billionaire, bank robber, or Viking.

That's true to a point - obviously it's not possible to convince somebody you really are a non-human creature or some mythical being because everybody knows that can't be true. But rich man? Or bank robber? A doctor? A fireman maybe? Different ethnicity? Disabled? ....Age? These are just a few examples of things other than just the opposite gender that some people might want us to believe is also true about their RL and might 'freak out' or feel uncomfortable if people were to find out the truth.

...and few people ask for verification of those things.

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8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I was just being silly...

But what do I think about this issue?  I don't really care what LL thinks about it....Thinking it should be totally one way or the other, totally black or white, only invites hurt feelings.

I think you probably should care what LL thinks, because it's their world and TOS that we're living by. So if they've explicitly created a place where they're not only allowing but actively enabling people to lie about their gender (and sanctioning people who share this info about others without permission), then that may not affect what you're comfortable doing, but it's a fairly good indication of what you can reasonably expect within said world.

Being deceptive certainly isn't nice. I wouldn't do it. But neither is pushing for RL information when you've no right to it. And within SL, hurt feelings notwithstanding, I prefer to err on the side of safety and privacy.

I knew even before this thread blew up that my view on it is controversial and would annoy some people (though I didn't expect it to go full weapon level), but I've thought about this a lot and I feel very strongly that as long as it's in SL, the principle of RL privacy trumps it all. I really do have good reasons for believing this and I've not yet seen anything to convince me otherwise.

But we all knew that.

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3 minutes ago, wesleytron said:

That's true to a point - obviously it's not possible to convince somebody you really are a non-human creature or some mythical being because everybody knows that can't be true. But rich man? Or bank robber? A doctor? A fireman maybe? Different ethnicity? Disabled? ....Age? These are just a few examples of things other than just the opposite gender that some people might want us to believe is also true about their RL and might 'freak out' or feel uncomfortable if people were to find out the truth.

...and few people ask for verification of those things.

If you're being "true to yourself" in SL that doesn't mean you're being "your RL self" here. If every avatar and persona you portray in SL is a genuine aspect of your RL self then it's real. And that can be a good or bad thing....

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48 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

If it's true, then it means LL is very happy to support and even encourage people to lie about their sex and falsify "proof". If it's true. Is it, anyone?

Isn’t the voice morphing a free extended trial of a service from another company? So just a feature they thought the premium accounts might like to use and that they partnered with to hopefully get a commission from? Lots of companies offer these related perks, coupons or trials but we don’t make that kind of assumption. 

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1 minute ago, Fauve Aeon said:

Isn’t the voice morphing a free extended trial of a service from another company? So just a feature they thought the premium accounts might like to use and that they partnered with to hopefully get a commission from? Lots of companies offer these related perks, coupons or trials but we don’t make that kind of assumption. 

No idea. But whatever the motivation for providing it, it's still proof that LL has absolutely no problem with people lying about their sex and is happy to enable people in falsifying evidence. You might even see it as encouragement. I would be very surprised if that's not the primary reason for most people wanting morphers. They might be crap, but the principle still remains. I bet they'd fool me, anyway.

And it really is a pretty clear indication of the nature of the world in which we're choosing to interact.


 

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1 minute ago, Fauve Aeon said:

Isn’t the voice morphing a free extended trial of a service from another company? So just a feature they thought the premium accounts might like to use and that they partnered with to hopefully get a commission from? Lots of companies offer these related perks, coupons or trials but we don’t make that kind of assumption. 

Doesn't matter a damn. On my audio setup here I have a stomp-box that adds harmonies to my vocal line. So what if I set it to +octave and then just pipe the "wet" fx  into sl voice?  Given that I'm an experienced radio actor and I know how to soften my diction for a more feminine intonation I GUARANTEE you'd think I was a woman with a contralto voice if I wanted you to. I'm not, though. Neither the gender nor the vocal range.

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2 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

If you're being "true to yourself" in SL that doesn't mean you're being "your RL self" here. If every avatar and persona you portray in SL is a genuine aspect of your RL self then it's real. And that can be a good or bad thing....

lol. I'm not sure if you're agreeing with my point or not! Or just expanding on what I said.

I'm not passing any judgment on the fantasy 'real' lives people create for themselves as part of their Second Life personas, I'm just saying that there is more than just gender where people doing that... and that they may then feel embarrassed/self-conscious or whatever if they were to be found out. Just like guys playing as women might feel once people know the truth. It was a specific response to something @Luna Bliss said.

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23 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

the principle of RL privacy trumps it all

I understand, for you it does.  And you can negotiate your relationships in SL to have all the privacy you need.

Saying I think people should be allowed to relate in SL like it's more a platform than a game and bring elements of real life into it should they choose does NOT mean I think an invasion of privacy is okay.
If people want to interact as if all is fantasy and not share RL details, fine. If people want more elements of real life, fine. 
This is something negotiated between those involved in a relationship, including all aspects of privacy that would be inherent in either fantasy or RL elements.

 

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11 minutes ago, wesleytron said:

lol. I'm not sure if you're agreeing with my point or not! Or just expanding on what I said.

I'm not passing any judgment on the fantasy 'real' lives people create for themselves as part of their Second Life personas, I'm just saying that there is more than just gender where people doing that... and that they may then feel embarrassed/self-conscious or whatever if they were to be found out. Just like guys playing as women might feel once people know the truth. It was a specific response to something @Luna Bliss said.

I don't know about "agreeing" - I think both you and Luna have it right, just from slightly different viewpoints, which makes what you're looking AT appear a bit different.

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11 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

I don't know about "agreeing" - I think both you and Luna have it right, just from slightly different viewpoints, which makes what you're looking AT appear a bit different.

Thus, describeth the World!

All the birds that jabber in the trees

are speaking at once of 

the very same seeds,

yet each from each a

different vantage it sees.

Edited by Lancewae Barrowstone
artistic privilege :D

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10 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I understand, for you it does. 

Well actually, for the Lab it does too and they're the final authority. We all agreed to that when we rezzed in. If anyone feels that strongly that it's so awful that someone might lie to them about their RL gender, I would suggest they take it out of SL, where that kind of thing is allowed and even enabled and arguably encouraged, and perhaps go online dating instead. I am told that those guys do take action against liars and time wasters.

12 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Saying I think people should be allowed to relate in SL like it's more a platform than a game and bring elements of real life into it should they choose does NOT mean I think an invasion of privacy is okay.

Well, obviously people can relate in SL as they like, but that does mean that they're likely to come up against someone who relates differently. I seem to be saying this a lot... people explaining to me the concept of users making SL whatever they like, and me trying to point out that that has to include those who don't want to share the truth behind the screen, even if they're pressed on the matter.

It isn't as simple as "liar/lied to always good/bad", but it really is as simple as "RL info not an entitlement, fantasy world populated with unicorns and beefcakes, inworld RL verification nigh on impossible, please choose yer poison wisely."

16 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

This is something negotiated between those involved in a relationship, including all aspects of privacy that would be inherent in either fantasy or RL elements.

Well, that's just it. It is an SL relationship. I don't think those are the same as RL ones, but you do; to you, the difference is in what is shared/revealed in the relationship, and to me that is precisely what changes the dynamic so very much. I took my SL relationship to RL and married him, bought a house, nursed him to the end of illness. I really do feel very justified in saying that it was extremely different when it was all being conducted over computers.


If you don't agree that SL relationships are quite fundamentally different from RL ones, which I suppose is a crux of what I'm saying, then, well, I'm happy to agree to disagree. I've found that it's not very easy to persuade anyone on either side of the fence to change their mind. But I will still say that even if it really is burn-in-hell-forever evil to deceive an online partner about one's real gender, it's still a possibility that's woven into the very fabric of this virtual world. LL actively enables it and protects our privacy. We all knew that and we all agreed to it, so we'd be wise to take responsibility and protect ourselves.

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9 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

...so we'd be wise to take responsibility and protect ourselves.

Protection really is a key.  

In real life we learn of people by full dimensional space, their body language, expressions and evasions, smiles and frowns, inquisitiveness or close-mindedness, care for details or ignorance of them, "...givers" or "takers..," etc.  Oh yes, we can perceive that a sexual interest can exist inside the SL context, but we can't so easily grasp yet all the rest of what another person truly is, nor should we try to believe what small bits are perceived through the little cracks of digital media, nor even so far as chatting in voice like on the phone or even with Skype. Nothing compares to the physical presence plus time, leading to familiarity and enough trust.  But even then there is the risk of unknown pasts.

So this discussion regarding Second Life in such a context becomes like the old stories of the catalog bride -- letters exchanged, then she arrives.  Do people want to get self-righteous about that kind of decision and its outcome?

I think it's desperation that leads people to this no matter what era in which it occurs.  Oh, it might work, I'll give you that.  But you have no right to expect that people in SL should participate with you in this hope and a prayer proceeding.  I know men who get huffy when a woman won't voice with them. But i also know they have no desire for anything but a little sexual play and will bully a little bit to see if they can up their pleasure by getting her on mic.  It's a sport.  

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42 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:
1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I understand, for you it does. 

Well actually, for the Lab it does too and they're the final authority. We all agreed to that when we rezzed in. If anyone feels that strongly that it's so awful that someone might lie to them about their RL gender, I would suggest they take it out of SL,

Amina, I'm saying that the two parties in a relationship have a choice as to how much of their RL information they share, including gender. I'm not saying anybody can circumvent privacy rules in the TOS.

I've never said it's a burn-in-hell-forever evil to play a different gender than one is. And I think the 'Gender Verified' announcements on profiles are pretty silly.

All I'm saying is that some people play SL differently than you do, and incorporate RL elements within SL fantasy ones. There's a whole world beyond yours and the way you choose to play SL.  I've been here a long while, and many of us old-timers feel SL is more a platform than a fantasy world, and we feel comfortable incorporating elements of both.

Just because some play SL differently than you do does not mean you need to feel pressured to "share the truth behind the screen", as you said. You are free to create your relationships however you want, within TOS boundaries of course.

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1 hour ago, wesleytron said:

Different ethnicity? Disabled? ....Age? These are just a few examples of things other than just the opposite gender that some people might want us to believe is also true about their RL and might 'freak out' or feel uncomfortable if people were to find out the truth.

That's true...people often freak out on discovery of many RL characteristics...but the proof for me that they freak out more regarding gender issues than the other ones is all the profiles touting they are "verified".  Second to me would be age, as I see profiles with age requirements or expressions of age that would seem to indicate they are looking for someone similar in age.

Edited by Luna Bliss

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This all reminds me inevitably (because I am like the proverbial dog, returning to its vomit) of a thread I started nearly a decade ago, and that was weirdly revived about a year ago.

And in that thread, I argued that, in some ways, the moral panic that some people feel about being unsure of the RL gender of those with whom they are interacting is a good thing, because it highlights the degree to which gender is performative, and separate from biology.

In other words, if a man can successfully represent as a woman in SL over the course of a long-term relationship, then he is essentially demonstrating that "femininity" can be performed by anyone: it's not "essential" or tied to one's biological sex. "Being a woman," in cultural terms, has nothing to do with one's genitalia.

So, those who are most uptight about engaging (especially romantically and sexually) with someone who is not representing as their RL biological sex are exhibiting, in so doing, a propensity to assume a necessary correspondence between gender and sexuality -- but, ironically, their panic about the possibility that they are doing just that is what makes it most clear that their assumptions are incorrect.

And that is, in the larger sense, a good thing, because it demonstrates the degree to which assumptions about gender and identity are predicated not upon biology but upon socially contingent codes and behaviours that we merely assume are gender based.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that it's good to be surprised or upset because of a revelation concerning the RL gender of their partner. My point has nothing to do, really,  with how people actually behave in SL. But the fact that they are worried about it is actually testimony, arguably, to how baseless those worries should be.

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12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 But the fact that they are worried about it is actually testimony, arguably, to how baseless those worries should be.

Great take on it...

But why would you (or anyone really, as I'm more going for a theory), be upset (was the word "upset"?), as you stated earlier, if you discovered your partner was not a man?  I'm looking for some deep, psychological explanation...lol. 

* I already have a partial answer...it's due to conditioning at young ages (for gender)...so deeper in the mind and less accessible to moderation...

Edited by Luna Bliss
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19 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This all reminds me inevitably (because I am like the proverbial dog, returning to its vomit) of a thread I started nearly a decade ago, and that was weirdly revived about a year ago.

And in that thread, I argued that, in some ways, the moral panic that some people feel about being unsure of the RL gender of those with whom they are interacting is a good thing, because it highlights the degree to which gender is performative, and separate from biology.

In other words, if a man can successfully represent as a woman in SL over the course of a long-term relationship, then he is essentially demonstrating that "femininity" can be performed by anyone: it's not "essential" or tied to one's biological sex. "Being a woman," in cultural terms, has nothing to do with one's genitalia.

So, those who are most uptight about engaging (especially romantically and sexually) with someone who is not representing as their RL biological sex are exhibiting, in so doing, a propensity to assume a necessary correspondence between gender and sexuality -- but, ironically, their panic about the possibility that they are doing just that is what makes it most clear that their assumptions are incorrect.

And that is, in the larger sense, a good thing, because it demonstrates the degree to which assumptions about gender and identity are predicated not upon biology but upon socially contingent codes and behaviours that we merely assume are gender based.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that it's good to be surprised or upset because of a revelation concerning the RL gender of their partner. My point has nothing to do, really,  with how people actually behave in SL. But the fact that they are worried about it is actually testimony, arguably, to how baseless those worries should be.

Another way I phrased that, is, if there were no male-female stereotypes would there be a need for nonbinary identifications?  (Nonbinary identifications are primarily a resistance in conforming to established stereotypes).

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Well..... geeez... Ok. Totally time to fess up....😮😬

I am actually an Alchemist and a Scribe in RL 😲☺️

But there's not a chance in hell that i'm telling anyone in-world that! 

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7 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I don't like voice either, in SL.  It's probably because I became accustomed to the world being that way, and so it feels more real to me.

In VR However, I can feel very immersed even though voice is usually a part of VR worlds. 

I couldn't do VR myself,at least not by myself in a room.. I jump out of my skin when someone just shows up next to me when I have headphones on.. My little brother and older sister used to love to sneak up on me when I had headphones on..Plus my husband just loved doing that also..

I snuk up on my husband one time to get revenge when he was at the computer with headphones on.. I just snuk up and lightly tapped him on the shoulder and it scared him so bad that he swung  backwards,hit me in the shoulder and the jaw.. I ended up with a bruised shoulder and jaw..

He felt so terrible about it,I felt terrible about him feeling terrible..Then having to tell the doctors and nurses what happened and getting them to believe us.. it was just a bad idea all the way around..hehehehe

I wouldn't know how i would react if someone snuk up on me with a VR set on.. I'd probably rip the computer off the stand from coming out of my skin..hehehehe

 

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It’s very odd to me that it seems as if there are people here who don’t believe heterosexuality is real. Is homosexuality fake as well? Bisexuality? It’s seems to be some sort of shameful thing to be what I was born as - a heterosexual woman.

If I create a gay male avatar, and woo gay men who develop feelings for me partially based on being who I am claiming to be, a gay man, then suddenly pull the mask off and yell, “Surprise! I have a vajayjay!” is he expected to be okay with that? Suddenly change his entire being and realize he’s actually into women and isn’t gay after all?

Is he really not the victim of someone utterly evil who played on his heart knowing full well what she was doing?

I think that would be a horrible thing to do to another human being. I think that blaming the victim for trusting another human being who is intentionally twisting the truth is vile. 

I know millennials believe they are enlightened beyond what us stodgy old gen-x and boomers could ever imagine but I didn’t realize they’d decided to just do away with heterosexuality.

Huh. TIL.

 

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47 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

It’s very odd to me that it seems as if there are people here who don’t believe heterosexuality is real. Is homosexuality fake as well? Bisexuality? It’s seems to be some sort of shameful thing to be what I was born as - a heterosexual woman.

If I create a gay male avatar, and woo gay men who develop feelings for me partially based on being who I am claiming to be, a gay man, then suddenly pull the mask off and yell, “Surprise! I have a vajayjay!” is he expected to be okay with that? Suddenly change his entire being and realize he’s actually into women and isn’t gay after all?

Is he really not the victim of someone utterly evil who played on his heart knowing full well what she was doing?

I think that would be a horrible thing to do to another human being. I think that blaming the victim for trusting another human being who is intentionally twisting the truth is vile. 

I know millennials believe they are enlightened beyond what us stodgy old gen-x and boomers could ever imagine but I didn’t realize they’d decided to just do away with heterosexuality.

Huh. TIL.

 

If one assumes SL is completely imaginary, then so were the feelings that person had for you.  Therefore, they cannot/should not be hurt, because, well, imaginary feelings cannot hurt you.  And, they were fools for developing those imaginary feelings for you in the first place, because you are merely an imaginary character.  Or perhaps you're just experiencing a shared delusion.  So, no, he's not the victim  of someone evil.  You cannot be evil, since you yourself are only an imaginary character to him, and it's his fault for thinking you were anything more.

Most people who claim enlightenment are frauds or deluded themselves, in my experience.

I don't think anyone here is claiming heterosexuality isn't real, or that changing the sexual orientations of the players around matters to whether it's good or bad.  But, it is a bit odd, one might actually say engaging in stereotyping, bigoted even, that the mockery is always about straight males being afraid of "the gay". 

Edited by Tolya Ugajin
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   I tried to voice verify once, but dogs aren't particularly proficient at operating microphones.

say-what-picture-id588612034?k=6&m=58861

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20 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

But, it is a bit odd, one might actually say engaging in stereotyping, bigoted even, that the mockery is always about straight males being afraid of "the gay"

Straight apparently isn’t contagious... only  gay is communicable.

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8 hours ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Doesn't LL give a free voice morpher to Premium account holders? Do I have that right? If so, that kind of tells you everything you need to know about the Lab's view on it. 

So, when the local electronic store gives away a free shotgun with the purchase of a living room set, it tells you that their view is you should shoot your TV?

I think it would be wiser to believe that it means nothing about their views on the matter, and it's just another toy to play with, like the ability to fly, or add a talking vajajay (although admittedly LL doesn't provide those), to accentuate your experience and keep you as a long term customer.

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