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6 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

Wow, I actually had the uncommon good sense to stay out of this thread until now. Now I have insomnia and all bets are off.  Well, this thread certainly took a few weird turns, eh? I did start reading from the beginning, handing out ♥s and :D as appropriate and then... O.o. ... I laughed. I cried. I scratched my head a lot. A very long time ago, in a Forum far, far away, I used to be chastised for writing posts that were actually novels. I think this thread just won some sort of prize for the sheer numbers of TL:DR posts! OK, analysis over. Time to start swinging!

I will start with the latter first. Nyah. I knew what obstreperous meant without having to look it up. :::beams with pride::: Take that!

Tolya, I ask that you cast your memory back to a long time ago in the Forum. I think it was about a week? Remember when you oh so patiently called me a moron? Then I called you a moron? Then we compared IQs? Weren't those lovely times? :::gets wistful::: The world was in order. The left was slugging it out with the right... Then there's THIS monstrosity of a thread and we are :::ew:::commingling? You and Scylla are parenting the anti-Christ? WTF? 

Fiiiiiiiiiiine. I'll bite the bait. I know that what you are supposing above, the conversation before the kumbaya and s'mores, is true in at least some cases with some people. I know that when people who hated Obamacare were told what was covered under the ACA that many of them loved the coverage... not realizing it was Obamacare. That was a lot of people. A lot of uninformed people but a lot of them. I think if you gathered a bunch of moderately informed people, stripped things of the charged words like apparently various types of socialism and kooky reporting (of both extremes), that average people want the same things.

:::gives Tolya the side-eye::: I haven't quite figgered you out...yet. But in the spirit, this may help ya out: 

 

(chuckles but can't quite grasp the entire arc of her post, probably because he hasn't had his morning coffee yet.  So, he grabs the bit near the end)

I'd agree that we all more or less need the same things, and generally do want the same things.  The problem with what the "average" person wants is, they really want it for themselves, and, although they won't admit it, they don't really care much beyond a general, theoretical sense, how getting what they want effects other people.  The ultimate example of this being, of course, the experience of Nazi Germany.  Until their own cities were being bombed into rubble, the average German was just fine and dandy with the well ordered, well fed, well cared for society that Naziism brought to them, and knew full well (or knew enough to look away) that Jews were being slaughtered and Russians being starved to death, etc.  Similarly, the blind racist who just hates brown people and so wants a wall to keep them out so he can live in a lilly white 'Murica and, at least a little while longer, believe it will stay that way, doesn't care that eventually it will lead to food prices skyrocketing and further automation and long term job loss because business cannot find people to do the work so they must invent machines to do it - and those machines will eventually do their own job as well.

I'm not calling anyone a Nazi, nor am I saying everyone who wants a wall is a racist, but I am saying that for the most part, "average people" are content with "I got mine" and don't worry beyond "what if that were me".  They don't care about the larger costs (especially if someone else is footing the bill, or the bill won't come due for a years).  As long as they can sit at their coffee shop and not have to be bothered by a multilingual menu, they're perfectly able to see a dead kid floating in the Rio Grande on TV and cast the blame on the kid's parents.  The average person wants their bread and circuses, and doesn't care if it's a Commodus or a Marcus Aurelius providing them.

Sorry, TL/DR again ;)

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18 hours ago, BelindaN said:

I have a numpty question...…….

Is this RL gender issue a big deal in other VR games, like World of Warcraft, or whatever else is out there????  Or is it just SL???

I don't think so (Me -> Long-time WoW player).

SL is unique in its focus on the match between RL person gender and SL avatar gender. In WoW its no controversy to play a character that does not match your RL gender. Its actually super common and not questioned at all. It would be unthinkable to accuse someone of lying, just because they happen to play a character of the opposite gender. You'll also never encounter a situation, where someone demands a "voice verification". The important thing is the game itself and how you perfrom, not whats in your pants. Its not even a topic for roleplayers, who engage in erotic roleplay. The overwhelming majority is absolutly fine with sticking to the fantasy, which is understandable, since they don't go into the RP portraying themselves, but a fantasy they want to play out.

The only time where voice is often demanded is in guilds that run raids, because typing would take too long to coordinate a group of 10-25 people. But the years, where people went all omg-its-a-woman! are long gone. Any issues or different treatment that might arise because ones gender is revealed, are all based on overall problems within society, but those are not specific to the game and could just aswell happen at work etc. 

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45 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Sorry, TL/DR again ;)

Wrong again, you right-wing conservative nutjob. I read the whole thing. 

46 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

(chuckles but can't quite grasp the entire arc of her post, probably because he hasn't had his morning coffee yet.  So, he grabs the bit near the end)

What? You couldn't fathom my early morning, insomnia induced (possibly post medicinal alcohol) brilliance? Once again this goes to the whole lack of intelligence thing... (not saying whose). My eloquent post, flavored with a bits of high-brow humor, was agreeing with what you said earlier. 

47 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

I'd agree that we all more or less need the same things, and generally do want the same things.  The problem with what the "average" person wants is, they really want it for themselves, and, although they won't admit it, they don't really care much beyond a general, theoretical sense, how getting what they want effects other people.  The ultimate example of this being, of course, the experience of Nazi Germany.  Until their own cities were being bombed into rubble, the average German was just fine and dandy with the well ordered, well fed, well cared for society that Naziism brought to them, and knew full well (or knew enough to look away) that Jews were being slaughtered and Russians being starved to death, etc.  Similarly, the blind racist who just hates brown people and so wants a wall to keep them out so he can live in a lilly white 'Murica and, at least a little while longer, believe it will stay that way, doesn't care that eventually it will lead to food prices skyrocketing and further automation and long term job loss because business cannot find people to do the work so they must invent machines to do it - and those machines will eventually do their own job as well.

I'm not calling anyone a Nazi, nor am I saying everyone who wants a wall is a racist, but I am saying that for the most part, "average people" are content with "I got mine" and don't worry beyond "what if that were me".  They don't care about the larger costs (especially if someone else is footing the bill, or the bill won't come due for a years).  As long as they can sit at their coffee shop and not have to be bothered by a multilingual menu, they're perfectly able to see a dead kid floating in the Rio Grande on TV and cast the blame on the kid's parents.  The average person wants their bread and circuses, and doesn't care if it's a Commodus or a Marcus Aurelius providing them.

Wait. Wut? We're agreeing...again? Which goes back to your original comment, upon which I commented in agreement, thus confusing you and leading to this comment. :::goes back to reread what was previously, erroneously listed as TL:DR::: Huh. Lookit that. I agree entirely. I was being nice to the moderately informed, average people in my previous comment. I think you are absolutely correct that the average person just doesn't give a darn as long as they have theirs. I will wave at you as I hurry passed your cubicle at Misanthropes Anon.

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8 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

You and Scylla are parenting the anti-Christ? WTF?

Tolya is always strangely "busy" when it's time to change his nappies.

We're having conversations.

 

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1 hour ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

The problem with what the "average" person wants is, they really want it for themselves, and, although they won't admit it, they don't really care much beyond a general, theoretical sense, how getting what they want effects other people.  The ultimate example of this being, of course, the experience of Nazi Germany.  Until their own cities were being bombed into rubble, the average German was just fine and dandy with the well ordered, well fed, well cared for society that Naziism brought to them, and knew full well (or knew enough to look away) that Jews were being slaughtered and Russians being starved to death, etc. 

I'm not saying you're mistaken, necessarily, but how on earth do you know that?    I wouldn't necessarily infer that the average Soviet citizen at the time was "just fine and dandy" with Stalin's rule, since it seems to me not improbable that, however the average Soviet citizen felt about particular aspects of Soviet life such as the holodomor and the Great Terror, few of them wanted to risk either deportation to a slave labour camp in the gulag, along with their immediate family, or a bullet in the back of the neck after interrogation by the NKVD, so they knew to toe the line and keep quiet.

Seems to me that similar considerations may well have applied to the average German at the time, too.

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18 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Tolya is always strangely "busy" when it's time to change his nappies.

We're having conversations.

 

You just happened to have this video on hand?

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4 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

You just happened to have this video on hand?

Oh, and you don't have a folder of bookmarks for cute videos about the antichrist?

Uh huh. Riiiiiight . . .

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22 minutes ago, Tarina Sewell said:

Now I know why I do not fit in to SL, I can not even ... keep up with this thread....

I think we are in the random events part of it now..

At least I am anyways..

 

hehehehe

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7 hours ago, Amina Sopwith said:

do not invest more of yourself than you can afford to lose in people that you can't see, hear or meet in person.

For me, it's not the fact that I can see a body or hear a voice in a meeting outside the digital world that makes a person real. It's something deeper that makes them real for me.
Imagine meeting a body that was mouthing words in a meeting outside digital space -- would they seem real then? They would seem like a robot to me. It is something beyond, deeper, that makes them a real person -- and that can be communicated in digital space just as well as in non-digital space.

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3 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

I don't think so (Me -> Long-time WoW player).

SL is unique in its focus on the match between RL person gender and SL avatar gender. In WoW its no controversy to play a character that does not match your RL gender. Its actually super common and not questioned at all. It would be unthinkable to accuse someone of lying, just because they happen to play a character of the opposite gender. You'll also never encounter a situation, where someone demands a "voice verification". The important thing is the game itself and how you perfrom, not whats in your pants. Its not even a topic for roleplayers, who engage in erotic roleplay. The overwhelming majority is absolutly fine with sticking to the fantasy, which is understandable, since they don't go into the RP portraying themselves, but a fantasy they want to play out.

The only time where voice is often demanded is in guilds that run raids, because typing would take too long to coordinate a group of 10-25 people. But the years, where people went all omg-its-a-woman! are long gone. Any issues or different treatment that might arise because ones gender is revealed, are all based on overall problems within society, but those are not specific to the game and could just aswell happen at work etc. 

I made some different experiences in the past, but overall, it's much much less of a thing than it is here.

Kinda reminds me how me and my back then best friend got into a raid where upon arrival in teamspeak I got an IM of one of them describling themselve like in some sort of ok-cupid add. That was really weird. Wich also described them as a guild in general real well. That was at the end of MoP and the last time I raided, because they crushed my spirit, lol.

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26 minutes ago, Tarina Sewell said:

Now I know why I do not fit in to SL, I can not even ... keep up with this thread....

What is the nature of reality....what's not to understand?  lol    :)

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2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

What is the nature of reality privacy ....what's not to understand?  lol    :)

FIFY

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9 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I think we are in the random events part of it now..

At least I am anyways..

 

hehehehe

No, we're in the group hug part!

EVERYONE GATHER AROUND!!!

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15 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

I suspect you only asked this to further our earlier debate about this guy.  You have now successfully convinced me that he is indeed a douchebag, regardless of his purported (and unverified by me, and I have less desire now to do so than before) brilliance in espousing genuine conservative values.  I'll still use his quote, though 😛

My concern regarding Roger Scro.. Scru...I automatically tend to use Beth's renaming now and call him Roger Scrotum..lol.  Anyway, he seems to have paired up with the annoying Jordan Peterson and the promulgation of a certain type of conservative thought that the far-right espouses in the U.S. now -- a type that is causing a lot of trouble and could very well re-elect Trump. And Trump is removing many protections that will cause climate change to become much worse, as well as remove many of the protections for disadvantaged groups.

 

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4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

No, we're in the group hug part!

EVERYONE GATHER AROUND!!!

PhonyDeficientHyena-size_restricted.gif

hehehe

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4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

No, we're in the group hug part!

EVERYONE GATHER AROUND!!!

/me runs for the door and escapes.

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The problem with the digital world is that people can more easily hide. We don't hear the loud and annoying munching when the other is eating, we don't see that the other decided not to take a shower that day. In other words, in digital space it's easily for others to put their best foot forward. And it's not easy for us to see the negatives about the other that might well make a relationship with them outside digital space impossible. And in such a case then we are imagining we could be close to them without having the full information needed to make that judgement.

But of course, outside digital space people can hide too, and often in more important ways.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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19 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

For me, it's not the fact that I can see a body or hear a voice in a meeting outside the digital world that makes a person real. It's something deeper that makes them real for me.
Imagine meeting a body that was mouthing words in a meeting outside digital space -- would they seem real then? They would seem like a robot to me. It is something beyond, deeper, that makes them a real person -- and that can be communicated in digital space just as well as in non-digital space.

It's not that I don't consider everyone in SL to be a real person with valid feelings. It's just that I do not think it wise to invest too much of yourself in a person about whom you do not know the characteristics that are important to you. If someone's RL gender/sex is going to dictate so much of how you feel about someone (because they're the same person as they were the day before when you thought they had a different body) then I don't think you should be investing as if you know it when you don't, and can have almost no way of knowing. Voicing, it seems, is not failsafe. 

And if it really is that important to a person, then I don't think SL is the appropriate medium for them.

SL relationships are different to RL ones. I'm not saying they aren't real or the feelings involved don't matter, or even that it's not entirely possible to present a very fraudulent self in RL. But there is always going to be more "fill in the gaps" in SL than RL. 

 

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One of the reasons I don't voice anymore is,because the drama was just a whole other level on voice plus other things in combination..

I kind of use something that sits around the saying of, Never meet your heroes.. Pretty much let everyone's SL self, stay the SL self..Because it just never seems the same again after..

I mean if people are looking for relationships or whatever,that's one thing..But myself,I come to get away from the real world to unwind and shake away the work day/night and really anything else that has me looking for an escape..

I deal with hundreds of different people each month just doing job interviews alone let alone the people that come and go at work.. I'm ready for some down time when I come here..hehehehe

 

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32 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

No, we're in the group hug part!

EVERYONE GATHER AROUND!!!

Forum group hugs be like: 

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

But myself,I come to get away from the real world to unwind and shake away the work day/night and really anything else that has me looking for an escape..

I am always simply working in SL, and expect that someone contacting me regarding work is not roleplaying, and speaking to me much the same as talking to another on Skype or some other messenger service.

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2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I am always simply working in SL, and expect that someone contacting me regarding work is not roleplaying, and speaking to me much the same as talking to another on Skype or some other messenger service.

The strange thing is,I don't role play either..I just communicate to people through their avatar..We could talk about anything in this world or the outside world.. I just like to keep immersed in this world as much as I can with where we are and the whole atmosphere..

Voice just removes that for me,I guess..

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I always thought that one key reason why SL relationships can be so intense is because the most mundane and minor things become laden with so much meaning. Scores of strangers see my face and hear my voice every day (lucky them) and it means slightly less than bugger all. Yet in SL, these things are usually reserved for the most intimate circle, if they're bestowed at all. They become A Very Big Deal.

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