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1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Oh, that. Well, yes. Sometimes.

And of course, he's almost always wrong. (She said, sweetly.)

More seriously . . .

I've spent a lot of time over the years tangling with Tolya. He can be obstreperous, annoying, pig-headed, and gruff. He occasionally fights dirty (possibly without realizing it). And he's very conservative.

BUT he is, genuinely, a very good person, and also a very intelligent one. His bark actually is worse than his bite, and, even if he doesn't sound it, he genuinely respects, and sometimes even likes, those with whom he argues. He's conservative, but by no means an ideologue, and he'll concede points and rethink his positions when faced with rational reasons for doing so. And he is thoughtful and rational enough that he has, on occasion, forced me to shift my position on some things, which is something I really value in him.

And, despite the occasional impersonation of "Old-Man-Shaking-Stick-On-Porch," he is really very nice. If all conservatives were as open to real discussion, and as willing to accord respect to those who think differently, we'd be living in a very different, and very much nicer world right now. (He'd no doubt suggest that the left needs more of the same, and he'd probably be right about that, too.)

There's no point in my trying to persuade you that he's nicer than he probably seems to you right now. That's something you'll determine for yourself, obviously. But if I rephrase your question slightly, I'd answer that, yes, he's worth the effort, at least. Despite our battles over the years, and our HUGE differences in views, I consider him a friend. I think, with some time and more experience in the delicate art of Tolya Wrangling, you will too.

And this too. But you always do, I've found.

Stop saying nice things about me.  I have a reputation as an arrogant curmudgeonly donkeybum to maintain.

As one of the few genuinely (or at least openly) right wing nutcases on here, I think it would be fun sometime to actually compare these "HUGE differences in views"  with you lunatic lefty liberals on here.  You'd probably find that there is a more in common than not.  But then, we'd all sit around singing kumbaya, and what fun would that be?

Congrats on "obstreperous" - it's rare I have to look up a word.  Especially one I take as a compliment 😛

All kidding aside, I'll always tell people if I think they are wrong, and why, and I will always tell them if I think they are right.  I'll also always honor a truce if requested and give a hug if needed.  But, I do enjoy the battle, and that is probably my biggest character flaw.  I will become so engrossed in "winning" or returning tit for tat (can I say "tit" here?) that I sometimes lose sight of the points of agreement and that winning the war sometimes makes the peace rather unpleasant.  You telling me to stop being a jerk usually does the trick, because, well, I respect you.

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52 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

In general, however, I'd caution against stereotyping Tolya. As he'll be the first to tell you, he's not like the other girls.

I dunno, with all the weight I've put on the last few years, I'm up to a B cup and I can't really see the evidence of being a guy any more because my gut is in the way.  So, maybe I AM like the other girls, but with a few sad hairs on my chest :(

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14 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

I think it would be fun sometime to actually compare these "HUGE differences in views"  with you lunatic lefty liberals on here.

Well for one, I don't like this Roger Scruton guy, the conservative you said you really like and that Derik (was that his name) raved about. Because, he said this:

Roger Scruton claimed sexual harassment “just means sexual advances made by the unattractive” and said date rape victims were “withdrawing consent in retrospect”.

Don't know if that website is just a rag, but you can scroll down and see Roger say this in his own words:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/theresa-may-roger-scruton-no-such-thing-date-rape

Is this something you agree with..his views on sexual harassment and date rape?

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13 minutes ago, BelindaN said:

I doubt observers would care who the artist was.

Would you care if the artist was animating the pin-up girl in real time, for your pleasure?

Do you see the two situations as completely different, or as two different places on the same scale?

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11 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Would you care if the artist was animating the pin-up girl in real time, for your pleasure?

Do you see the two situations as completely different, or as two different places on the same scale?

I was just pleased to discover that at least one prominent pin-up art creator was a woman.  But then I thought twice and wondered if she should be canceled for exploiting and objectifying her own sex.

Modern kulture has me so confuzed.

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When you write an essay and the person it was written for can't be arsed to read it.

e5504cd383f031916ad11bdcada484a1.jpg.2fd46f2ed6ad334c27181d98029df054.jpg

Edited by Beth Macbain
The entire point was missed.
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10 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well for one, I don't like this Roger Scruton guy, the conservative you said you really like and that Derik (was that his name) raved about. Because, he said this:

Roger Scruton claimed sexual harassment “just means sexual advances made by the unattractive” and said date rape victims were “withdrawing consent in retrospect”.

Don't know if that website is just a rag, but you can scroll down and see Roger say this in his own words:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/theresa-may-roger-scruton-no-such-thing-date-rape

Is this something you agree with..his views on sexual harassment and date rape?

(reminds himself to be brief, knowing he'll fail miserably)

I don't really know Scruton beyond what was shared in that quote a bit ago ("It has been a grand adventure to be so hated by those who I hold in such contempt." which I do think would be a fitting epitaph for me), and a quick perusal of one of the articles someone, I think you, posted, to blast him.  And, I have enough reading I enjoy lined up and too little interest in modern philosophy to read up on him to form an informed opinion of him.

However, sexual harassment is illegal (in US workplaces anyway, and I suspect in most industrialized countries) and, if nothing else, in bad taste.  One should avoid doing illegal things (absent a compelling moral imperative, in which case they should be prepared to suffer the consequences), and things that are in bad taste should be avoided in the workplace.  While there are certainly some cases of trumped up harassment claims, and a maddeningly large number of claims devolve into "he said/she said" situations, a public figure using this tired old joke in such a manner surely should be ashamed of himself.  It strikes me as revealing a genuine misogynistic streak.

On date rape, I'll first state 2 problems I have with the term/concept.  First, there was indeed a push a while back in California to allow people (I believe it was specific to women, but could be wrong) to retroactive

ly revoke consent after sex.  Perhaps he was referring to that, I don't know.  I do not believe the law was carried into effect, but I would have a huge problem with such a law.  Second, I think the term "date rape" trivializes rape.  Setting aside the term "statutory rape" another term I dislike, rape is rape, and I have a difficult time deciding whether rape is as abhorrent a crime as murder, or more so.  At least with murder the victim's suffering is over, not life-long and life-changing.  I'm a firm believer in Old Testament style justice, and, if I ever were to rule the world, male rapists, identified with 100% certainty, would be castrated and thrown into a lifetime confinement with very large men who are perfectly willing to return the favor to him, and given generous allowances of Viagra.  Not sure what the suitable punishment for the exceedingly rare female rapist would be.

I can't say I am overly familiar with Buzzfeed, but right wing places do tend to label it about the same way left wing outlets label Fox (as, apparently, does the organization below).  Nonetheless, I have not heard of either outright making up quotes attributed to a specific public figure, so I'll accept them as genuine.

I suspect you only asked this to further our earlier debate about this guy.  You have now successfully convinced me that he is indeed a douchebag, regardless of his purported (and unverified by me, and I have less desire now to do so than before) brilliance in espousing genuine conservative values.  I'll still use his quote, though 😛

image.thumb.png.9d5ac39d95f81ef5def3afb2c17a344f.png

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Oh for ....

Many of the posts on the last page or more were springboarded from your own response, Beth. Perhaps a post or two were in direct response (perhaps more) but beyond that it evolved/derailed into something else, leaving your initial response in the dust.

Cripes ...

Take more than just a break - taking the conversation that came out of your post (and left it in the dust) so personally is not good.

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On 1/15/2020 at 4:03 PM, Beth Macbain said:
On 1/15/2020 at 3:45 PM, Amina Sopwith said:

SL is literally marketed as "your imagination". 

But that is your definition, or their definition, not mine.

Thats LL’s definition, the only one that really sticks. So any other definition or usage is a construct of the individual user and other users are NOT bound or in any way obligated by it. No one is saying you are ‘wrong’ for wanting what you want, but I’ll venture to say that you are going about it the wrong way to actually achieve success at it. As you’ve painfully experienced. I’d estimate that you were deceived largely because you were not at all clear at the outset what the true requirements were. Since you said that the intimacy was already happening and the emotions were already engaged *with the current criteria being A-OK* before the verification card was played, WAS it fair? Or did you move the goalpost? 

When I meet someone, I assume they are here for their version of ‘their world, their imagination’. But if you haven’t already noped out of this thread @Beth Macbain, I know several of us who are weighing in here *have* quite successfully mixed SL and RL. So we might know a bit about the topic. Just saying. 

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I acknowledge and regret I allowed myself to take the debate past the point of propriety, and apologize to you, Amina, and anyone else that was taken aback by it.  I would most regret if anyone felt polluted enough by a public forum that they felt the need to avoid it.  Hopefully by "long and extended" you are talking in SL terms, where an RL day is long enough to get engaged and an RL month is a lifetime, because one contributor lost is one too many.

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7 hours ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Does it help to think of this in terms of "costs", for want of a better word?

So the cost of allowing everyone a perfect right to protect their RL info, up to and including lying when their back is against the wall about it, is that some people will get catfished. I'm sorry for that. I'm sure that some of them don't deserve it. 

But the alternative is a system in which people are somehow obliged to give RL information because another resident wants it to protect their feelings. Do I really need to explain where that could lead us? Do you seriously want that to be your SL?

We can't have both and it seems pretty clear to me that the safe, sane and sensible option is the first one. Yes, it means people will get hurt and for that I'm sorry. The cost of not having the state dictate who you can have sex with is that people will have affairs and cause hurt and damage that way. But what's the alternative?

As before, set and maintain your boundaries and remember the nature of where you are, and the TOS you signed. It's no good claiming this is your match.com because it's not match.com. It's Second Life and you do not have a right to anyone's data.

 

sorry complete and utter tosh

if someone finds the information important you can answer or refuse to answer....both are honourable and the person asking then has good information...this person is x (where x might be gender or redhead or a fish or whatever) or the person refused to answer so they may be x or may not now I can make a decision

the alternative you propose is Yes I am x when you arent and you basically get someone into a relationship they didnt want to be and wouldnt have been if you were honest.

 

Having said that I will agree are you x shouldnt be a subject of questioning until things are getting serious

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5 minutes ago, Fauve Aeon said:

Thats LL’s definition, the only one that really sticks. So any other definition or usage is a construct of the individual user and other users are NOT bound or in any way obligated by it. No one is saying you are ‘wrong’ for wanting what you want, but I’ll venture to say that you are going about it the wrong way to actually achieve success at it. As you’ve painfully experienced. I’d estimate that you were deceived largely because you were not at all clear at the outset what the true requirements were. Since you said that the intimacy was already happening and the emotions were already engaged *with the current criteria being A-OK* before the verification card was played, WAS it fair? Or did you move the goalpost? 

When I meet someone, I assume they are here for their version of ‘their world, their imagination’. But if you haven’t already noped out of this thread @Beth Macbain, I know several of us who are weighing in here *have* quite successfully mixed SL and RL. So we might know a bit about the topic. Just saying. 

"Your imagination" is NOT their definition, it is a tagline - ie. marketing ploy to get you to explore their product.  Their "definition" is, from their own website (click the About tab), "Second Life, the pioneering virtual world that’s been enjoyed by millions of people and seen billions of dollars transacted among users in its economy." 

You DID say LL's definition is the "only one that really sticks" did you not?

From that definition, SL is not merely "your imagination" - billions of dollars are not "imaginary", any more than a "virtual world" is imaginary.  It is a community (defined by Community Standards), an economy (defined by $L) - in effect, an extension of the "real" world into cyberspace.  We can use our imagination to create whatever we want here (within the technological limitations) but to claim it is merely "your imagination" is not correct, using LL's definition.  If the "community" is indeed imaginary, then we have no need for "standards", and if the economy is imaginary, I'd like the tens of thousands of USD I've spent here over the years back.

Perhaps a better way to frame the difference of opinion is that SL MEANS different things and is USED differently by Amina (and maybe you) than for myself and Beth.  Neither group should insist that it mean the same thing to and be used in the same way as everyone else.  It can be as imaginary as Amina wishes, and as "real" as Beth wants, and neither is wrong.

Now, let's all enjoy some cross-cultural music to expand our horizons.

 

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4 hours ago, Amina Sopwith said:

I'd rather not. But thank you. I really do value your judgement.

Thanks Amina. And understood.

I really do try hard -- and sometimes even successfully -- to remember that whole "intersectionality" thing . . .

It's relatively easy, I suppose, for me, speaking from a position of privilege, to preach about how we should all just "get along." I've dealt, and sometimes still do have to contend with my fair share of misogynist jerks (which number certainly does not include Tolya), but I do so, now at least, from a different and doubtless safer (or at least quieter) place than a lot of women have access to. Fatigue is a real thing, and we are not all equally subjected to it.

Anyway, you know what you're doing. And you do it well.

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3 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

I'm up to a B cup

Not a bad start. But you need to try harder if you want the boys to really go wild.

3 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

I dunno, with all the weight I've put on the last few years

You need to stop whining about your weight gain, which you've done a few times here recently, and just embrace the role of jolly, chubby, dimpled little ball of joy that you very clearly are meant to be.

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2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Not a bad start. But you need to try harder if you want the boys to really go wild.

You need to stop whining about your weight gain, which you've done a few times here recently, and just embrace the role of jolly, chubby, dimpled little ball of joy that you very clearly are meant to be.

 

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4 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

I'm up to a B cup

You and my ex-hubby.

I leave enough room in my A cup bras to hold those chicken breast things I use to pad myself up to... an A cup.

Yet you can walk around Lake Mendota with your top off and I can't?

Pfft!

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3 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

You and my ex-hubby.

I leave enough room in my A cup bras to hold those chicken breast things I use to pad myself up to... an A cup.

Yet you can walk around Lake Mendota with your top off and I can't?

Pfft!

Heyyyy what are you doing walking around Lake Mendota? 

In the winter?

TOPLESS!?

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4 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Stop saying nice things about me. 

No

4 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

As one of the few genuinely (or at least openly) right wing nutcases on here, I think it would be fun sometime to actually compare these "HUGE differences in views"  with you lunatic lefty liberals on here.  You'd probably find that there is a more in common than not.  But then, we'd all sit around singing kumbaya, and what fun would that be?

Yes, agreed. Can we sing the Internationale instead? I'm more familiar with the words.

 

4 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Congrats on "obstreperous" - it's rare I have to look up a word.  Especially one I take as a compliment

My work here is done.

Wait. No it isn't . . .

4 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

All kidding aside, I'll always tell people if I think they are wrong, and why, and I will always tell them if I think they are right.  I'll also always honor a truce if requested and give a hug if needed.  But, I do enjoy the battle, and that is probably my biggest character flaw.  I will become so engrossed in "winning" or returning tit for tat (can I say "tit" here?) that I sometimes lose sight of the points of agreement and that winning the war sometimes makes the peace rather unpleasant.

Thank you for trying to dial down the passions here a bit. It's not surprising, really: our relationships, whatever form those may take, are often the most important part of us, and defining how those should look is naturally going to lead to heightened feelings. This has always been a contentious issue here.

4 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

You telling me to stop being a jerk

Always my pleasure.

No, really. I actually enjoy it.

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4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yes, agreed. Can we sing the Internationale instead? I'm more familiar with the words.

 

 

 

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Wow, I actually had the uncommon good sense to stay out of this thread until now. Now I have insomnia and all bets are off.  Well, this thread certainly took a few weird turns, eh? I did start reading from the beginning, handing out ♥s and :D as appropriate and then... O.o. ... I laughed. I cried. I scratched my head a lot. A very long time ago, in a Forum far, far away, I used to be chastised for writing posts that were actually novels. I think this thread just won some sort of prize for the sheer numbers of TL:DR posts! OK, analysis over. Time to start swinging!

5 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

As one of the few genuinely (or at least openly) right wing nutcases on here, I think it would be fun sometime to actually compare these "HUGE differences in views"  with you lunatic lefty liberals on here.  You'd probably find that there is a more in common than not.  But then, we'd all sit around singing kumbaya, and what fun would that be?

Congrats on "obstreperous" - it's rare I have to look up a word.  Especially one I take as a compliment 😛

I will start with the latter first. Nyah. I knew what obstreperous meant without having to look it up. :::beams with pride::: Take that!

Tolya, I ask that you cast your memory back to a long time ago in the Forum. I think it was about a week? Remember when you oh so patiently called me a moron? Then I called you a moron? Then we compared IQs? Weren't those lovely times? :::gets wistful::: The world was in order. The left was slugging it out with the right... Then there's THIS monstrosity of a thread and we are :::ew:::commingling? You and Scylla are parenting the anti-Christ? WTF? 

Fiiiiiiiiiiine. I'll bite the bait. I know that what you are supposing above, the conversation before the kumbaya and s'mores, is true in at least some cases with some people. I know that when people who hated Obamacare were told what was covered under the ACA that many of them loved the coverage... not realizing it was Obamacare. That was a lot of people. A lot of uninformed people but a lot of them. I think if you gathered a bunch of moderately informed people, stripped things of the charged words like apparently various types of socialism and kooky reporting (of both extremes), that average people want the same things.

:::gives Tolya the side-eye::: I haven't quite figgered you out...yet. But in the spirit, this may help ya out: 

 

Edited by Seicher Rae
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Hey, Seicher...nothing (except, apparently, the cancel culture) says that conservatives and liberals can't converse, and even be friends.  At least in a sane world.

Of course, in OUR world, we have people gasping in horror when a prominent liberal deigns to speak with Donald Trump at a ball game, or when Ellen Degeneres laughs at a shared joke with George Bush.

I rather think that those people have an analog of the fear typified by those who insist on voice verification in SL.  One is afraid of catching the gay.  The other is afraid of catching...I dunno...is there a conservative or a liberal disease going around?

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6 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

The other is afraid of catching...I dunno...is there a conservative or a liberal disease going around?

:::typing hands shaking::: Thinking don't give in to the temptation. Do not do it! Be an adult, Seicher. Don't bite on the innocent straight line that Lindal just fed you. Don't think about Cheetos as a disease vector carried by tiny hands. Just, walk away.

This is such a useful gif...

anigif_enhanced-28513-1429829386-2.gif

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6 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Would you care if the artist was animating the pin-up girl in real time, for your pleasure?

Do you see the two situations as completely different, or as two different places on the same scale?

Well, I can't imagine the mindsets from the 1930s, other than making certain assumptions about how pin ups were viewed at that time. I hadn't considered that models may have always been used. Again, I assumed these images, especially during WW2 were generic  without a model.

Obviously if the artist was animating a model to provide pleasure to others, by today's standards, then I would certainly care, but back then??? I don't know.

So although the outcome of the pin up image is the same, getting there with or without a model is different.

Sorry for the thread drift.

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Hello @Beth Macbain. Forgive me, I haven't read your post in full but I scanned it and I think I get the gist.

I've apologised to you in the past when I thought I'd done you wrong, albeit inadvertently. In this case, I was as gentle and kind as I could be when talking to you directly (and still got your famous "scorn laugh", but eh, it's an emoji). Once I started discussing the topic more generally with other people though, yeah, my tone changed a bit. But I'm afraid I stand by it all. I absolutely believe in people's 100% perfect right to RL privacy within SL and I don't believe that is compromised because feelings. I would feel differently if the relationship was going into RL, but this is SL and if it's the medium one chooses to use, that's the ultimate bottom line. It's not against TOS to lie if someone presses you in such a way that fudging the answer would give the information. That's because nobody owes this information to anyone, and you signed up to that just like everyone else. Again, I don't think it's honourable, I wouldn't praise anyone for doing it, I'm sorry for (some of the) people who get hurt as a result, but when it's all within this digital sphere, I don't believe they are obliged to do otherwise. They don't owe anyone the information. The honourable thing is not always the obligatory thing; in fact, the very fact that it's not obligatory is often why it's honourable.

And yes, if a man in SL was trying to get me to verify myself to him by using emotive language along the lines of honesty, shattered trust and all that, it would be a red flag to me. Rightly or wrongly, it would feel manipulative to me and make me uneasy. I don't intend that as an insult to you, but it is honestly how I would react to that approach. I don't think I'm alone in that.

I'm sure people have nothing to fear from you having their information, but not everyone is as trustworthy as you in that regard, and they need to protect themselves too. 

So once again, I would urge anyone who is conducting intimate relationships within SL to be responsible, maintain protective boundaries (yes, you probably will find this turns into a sliding scale; you live, you learn, or maybe you discover that SL relationships don't work for you) and do not invest more of yourself than you can afford to lose in people that you can't see, hear or meet in person.

Edited by Amina Sopwith
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10 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

I don't really know Scruton beyond what was shared in that quote a bit ago ("It has been a grand adventure to be so hated by those who I hold in such contempt." which I do think would be a fitting epitaph for me), and a quick perusal of one of the articles someone, I think you, posted, to blast him.  And, I have enough reading I enjoy lined up and too little interest in modern philosophy to read up on him to form an informed opinion of him.

To my mind, the description of Scruton as a "conservative philosopher" is somewhat misleading, since his serious philosophical work on aesthetics (which I'm not qualified to comment on), and particularly on Kant and the Sublime, is apparently very highly thought of but doesn't really have a great deal to do, or not directly at least, with his political and polemical writings.

I wouldn't regard him as "conservative philosopher" in the way, for example,  Leo Strauss was, or Michael Oakeshott in the UK -- rather, he was a philosopher who was also a very able polemicist for his conservative political views.     

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