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1 hour ago, BelindaN said:

I have a numpty question...…….

Is this RL gender issue a big deal in other VR games, like World of Warcraft, or whatever else is out there????  Or is it just SL???

It is, but in a different way. I played World of Warcraft for many years and found that as a female gamer I was often not taken as seriously as guys, for instance when discussing strategies for raids. Female gamers are also somewhat less likely to be offered senior positions in a guild. However with something like Warcraft, voice is not merely common, it's 99.99% essential if you are raiding, so everyone you raid with will know your RL gender anyway, regardless of what gender your toon is. That said, I nearly always chose a female toon anyway, because most of the male ones in WoW are just ugly.

And female Night Elves get exactly the same "Hi, how r u?" IMs from guys as women in SL do, especially in the newbie zones. Except that in WoW, most of those guys are like, fourteen.

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21 minutes ago, Tamanni said:

because most of the male ones in WoW are just ugly.

Preach it. I've been waiting for forever for a good looking male char to play for eye candy sake.

Oh well, I'm happy with my army of gnome ladies.

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27 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

When @Tolya Ugajin is the least awful person in a thread, and he stands for almost everything that I'm against, that's my indication that this is a place I don't want to be anymore and a group I have no desire to be associated with. 

 

I want people who are close to me to trust me. Being trustworty is an integral part of how I view myself. I pride myself on me being trustworthy. I take others not trusting me as an insult, especially if we're friends or more. Asking me to verify my gender is not trusting me, that's saying I might be lying.

I think many of the people who say they are verified are insecure, but it's not meant malicious. I'd just rather have them not feel the need to put that into their profiles, but instead get a higher self-esteem, because ultimately, that'd make them happier, in my opinion.

As for the petty reaction: Well, yeah. How would you suggest I handle it? Mind you, I'm not talking about random strangers, they get a "lol no" and I move on. People I am friends with? I'D be very hurt if they'd demand stuff from and act entitled about it. That'd be some kind of betrayal to me, and I do not react well to those, for reasons. I know myself better than to be like "Of COURSE I'd be the bigger person!" when I know I have bad impulse control, especially when hurt like that, and am currently learning to stand for myself. 

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46 minutes ago, Syn Anatine said:

Preach it. I've been waiting for forever for a good looking male char to play for eye candy sake.

Oh well, I'm happy with my army of gnome ladies.

The blood elf guys are pretty enough, but I was mainly Alliance; on the rare occasion I played horde I usually went with a Tauren. 

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Since the main discussion seems to be over and the derail has begun, I have only one more thing to say...

t_35ccce720bcc6a8ca311de9786813b60.jpg

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3 hours ago, Matty Luminos said:

It's also a really silly requirement, because getting turned on by performing or watching heterosexual sex (even pixel sex) in itself proves they're not gay.

The walls of my woodworking shop still display pin-up girl art left behind by my father.

image.png.30cc36b0231ea1941d89ab5a64d2beb8.png image.png.f471a263ffe397a81dfc9a62e5158f00.png 

I imagine a lot of fellas got pleasure from those images over the years. Do you think they wondered whether the girls were drawn by Alberto Vargas or Joyce Ballantyne?

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

/me carefully raises her head over the parapet.

I may be missing nuances here, but I don't think the two of you are actually very far apart. I think you are differing mostly in emphasis?

No, he's definitely telling me I'm wrong and inferior while still agreeing with me. Leaving aside the superiority complex, personal insults and oversharing, it's a bit like arguing with Daffy Duck. I'm just trying to work out whether it's worth it or not. 

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2 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

No, he's definitely telling me I'm wrong and inferior while still agreeing with me. Leaving aside the superiority complex, personal insults and oversharing, it's a bit like arguing with Daffy Duck. I'm just trying to work out whether it's worth it or not. 

He likes duck waving.

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1 minute ago, janetosilio said:

He likes duck waving.

Well, if the level of his debate ever does drive me to therapy, he'll be getting my bill.

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1 minute ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Well, if the level of his debate ever does drive me to therapy, he'll be getting my bill.

It shouldn’t. It’s smash mouth, ire raising stuff. You’re handling it well.

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3 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

It shouldn’t. It’s smash mouth, ire raising stuff. You’re handling it well.

Thank you. Though it would seem some feathers have been ruffled.

So a man calls his doctor to make a house visit and they agree on a time, but the medic never shows up. The man rings up the clinic to find out what's going on. The doctor answers and the man says, "Hey, how come you never came to make the house visit for me?" And the doctor says, "Oh, was this the one at ten o'clock, 47 Linden Street, with the duck pond in the front garden?" And the man says, "Yeah, that's me." And the doctor says, "Well I wasn't going to come into your house after the way your ducks kept insulting me." 

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, I'll be here all week. No no, it is not necessary to shower me with praise and sexual favours. Just throw paper money.

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2 hours ago, Syn Anatine said:

Oh well, I'm happy with my army of gnome ladies.

You play Gor?

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23 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

No, he's definitely telling me I'm wrong and inferior while still agreeing with me. Leaving aside the superiority complex, personal insults and oversharing, it's a bit like arguing with Daffy Duck. I'm just trying to work out whether it's worth it or not. 

Oh, that. Well, yes. Sometimes.

And of course, he's almost always wrong. (She said, sweetly.)

More seriously . . .

I've spent a lot of time over the years tangling with Tolya. He can be obstreperous, annoying, pig-headed, and gruff. He occasionally fights dirty (possibly without realizing it). And he's very conservative.

BUT he is, genuinely, a very good person, and also a very intelligent one. His bark actually is worse than his bite, and, even if he doesn't sound it, he genuinely respects, and sometimes even likes, those with whom he argues. He's conservative, but by no means an ideologue, and he'll concede points and rethink his positions when faced with rational reasons for doing so. And he is thoughtful and rational enough that he has, on occasion, forced me to shift my position on some things, which is something I really value in him.

And, despite the occasional impersonation of "Old-Man-Shaking-Stick-On-Porch," he is really very nice. If all conservatives were as open to real discussion, and as willing to accord respect to those who think differently, we'd be living in a very different, and very much nicer world right now. (He'd no doubt suggest that the left needs more of the same, and he'd probably be right about that, too.)

There's no point in my trying to persuade you that he's nicer than he probably seems to you right now. That's something you'll determine for yourself, obviously. But if I rephrase your question slightly, I'd answer that, yes, he's worth the effort, at least. Despite our battles over the years, and our HUGE differences in views, I consider him a friend. I think, with some time and more experience in the delicate art of Tolya Wrangling, you will too.

37 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

You’re handling it well.

And this too. But you always do, I've found.

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On 1/15/2020 at 3:34 PM, Beth Macbain said:

I have a question, and I'm going to start this off with some assumptions I'm going to outline here.

There are a lot of people in SL whose avatar doesn't match their RL gender. There are a lot of people who don't consider SL a game. There are a lot of people who consider SL strictly a role-play environment. When it comes to the voice verification thing, it's mostly a big deal for those who engage in the more adult activities. Some people are looking to create relationships, friendships, etc., that stay only in SL, and want to extend those things outside of SL. There is a lot of chatter in different places and different times (and different threads) about whether or not someone's RL gender matters in SL.

(End of assumptions)

I'm a straight woman. I have absolutely no issues with anyone being who they are or who they want to be. 

However, when it comes to having sex with someone, I want that someone to be a heterosexual man. And yes, that includes in SL and RL. I'm in a position where I am free to mix my two worlds together, and I know that many aren't. I think it's amazing that people who, for a variety of very personal reasons, are not free to live their real lives as who they are, or who they wish to be, can use SL as a really beautiful platform to be their beautiful and free selves.

There are a lot of people who get very angry about people who want to know the person behind the avatar's true gender. 

Would you feel that same in RL? If a straight woman meets up with a man in real life, they dance, have drinks, etc, and then go back to one of their homes for a little naked fun, and the man strips down and is actually a woman, and she hasn't told the other party that she is actually a woman, hasn't she withheld a piece of crucial information?

I met a man on SL. Knew him for several months, but never voiced. I developed real life warm fuzzies for him. We were intimate. 

And then someone else told me he wasn't a he, he was actually a bisexual woman. My trust was absolutely destroyed. It wasn't like we just met - we had formed a relationship. I felt betrayed and tricked. And I did try to work with it. I tried my damnedest, but I'm just not sexually attracted to women when it comes to relationships. A one night stand, sure, maybe. Something ongoing? No. It's just not who I am.

Am I a terrible person because I want to learn someone's real life gender as I'm getting to know them, or is that a reasonable expectation? Or, perhaps, instead of gender, whether or not the other party considers SL a game or not, so you know not to necessarily take them at their word when it comes to anything? Or to know that their avatar is an alternate version of themselves? 

Just to make sure it's absolutely clear - I do not care what shade someone is on the rainbow. I want everyone to be exactly who they are with same rights and treatment as any other human being. 

If we're developing a relationship, be it just a friendship or something more intimate, I do want to know so I can adjust my own expectations of what the relationship is going to be. 

 

Beth and I disagree on a great many things, but I'm with her on this one.  Honesty and trust are important to a real and lasting relationship.  That being said, "voice verification" is a silly way to try and meet that requirement, and I think Beth is not advocating for it, either.  I do think she has a reasonable expectation in wanting to know a person's RL gender before becoming...intimately involved with them, shall we say.  Or at least, whether or not they are willing to share that information.  If the relationship is only a friendship, without romantic involvement, then I think it's much less important.

EDIT:  Scylla's long dissertation on competing "rights" in these situations is worth a careful reading, no matter which side of the debate you come down on.

Edited by Lindal Kidd
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15 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

If all conservatives were as open to real discussion, and as willing to accord respect to those who think differently...

I would value that, even in spite of the rest of the guff and blather, but I have seen absolutely no evidence of it in this debate. Plenty of dismissal, insults and nonsense accusations, but pretty much no ability to take points on board as per any sort of respectful discussion. (Example: I explicitly said the point was that people can ask questions but do not have the right to the information, he responded by telling me my point was that nobody would ever answer personal questions.)

I suspect that Tolya thinks he is a breath of marvellously roguish and un-PC fresh air, and that I have never been insulted, condescended to and dismissed by older men before. He would be wrong, as usual. I am too used to it to get madly exercised by it, but Christ it's tiresome.

Edited by Amina Sopwith
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53 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Well, if the level of his debate ever does drive me to therapy, he'll be getting my bill.

Tolya's too cheap to pay out, but I might be willing to waive my usual fee...
735443953_PsychiatricDevil_001.jpg.c5be5a51e54bc679b7c710ea88706dfc.jpg

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14 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Nobody got my joke. <sulks>

Bill! Bill! Daffy Duck!

Ah, tough crowd.

Th...th...th...that's all, folks!

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On 1/15/2020 at 12:46 PM, CaraTriple said:

I see a lot of profiles with "voice verified" listed. Does Linden Labs do voice verification?

You use the voice morph feature and you can verify yourself as an alien if you want. So when you see this, they probably used a voice morph and verified themselves to the person, they are not naming as the verify-er ...

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1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

The walls of my woodworking shop still display pin-up girl art left behind by my father.

image.png.30cc36b0231ea1941d89ab5a64d2beb8.png image.png.f471a263ffe397a81dfc9a62e5158f00.png 

I imagine a lot of fellas got pleasure from those images over the years. Do you think they wondered whether the girls were drawn by Alberto Vargas or Joyce Ballantyne?

The second pic is Joyce B based on that link, but I doubt observers would care who the artist was. The first pic resembles WW2 warbird nose art, but I don't know the origin of that style. It may have been the norm in the '30s.

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This whole thing feels kind of dumb and conflated somehow because to address the first part, I’ve never seen ‘voice verified’ on someone’s SL profile unless they were working in a financially compensated job or seeking a situation where that will be a benefit to their clientele. 

in the relationship arena, I think it’s up to the one who already knows they likely may want to take things RL to disclose THAT info up front, that RL info is going to be an expectation somewhere down the line,  not put the onus on the partner later, once emotions are engaged, to ‘verify’ something that they never even presented as an option in the first place, that being any of their RL information.

It’s kind of a trap situation, and I bet it’s far more common to see it as ‘they tricked and deceived me’ than it is to realize (and own) ‘i set myself up to expect and require something that they never agreed to give’.

We all know to go by face value in SL and what we do here really applies for SL only unless it’s mutually agreed to be otherwise before-hand right? I sure hope so! But that of course requires a person to be honest and up front with the fact that they are using SL as a potential RL dating search and acting accordingly from the start. No coyness or fooling yourself. I think that’s more where the honesty and disclosure needs to happen first. But if your MO is to fling and play first, then start bringing in the requirements, that’s going to fail 99% of the time and yes, you’ll be opening yourself to the probabilities of many partners’ typists not being in RL what they portray themselves to be in SL. They never claimed to be. 


 

Edited by Fauve Aeon
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47 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

I suspect that Tolya thinks he is a breath of marvellously roguish and un-PC fresh air, and that I have never been insulted, condescended to and dismissed by older men before. He would be wrong, as usual. I am too used to it to get madly exercised by it, but Christ it's tiresome.

Sadly, I'm not a trained mediator, nor hostage negotiator. You'll work this out with Tolya, or you won't. And yes, I get the tiresome thing.

In general, however, I'd caution against stereotyping Tolya. As he'll be the first to tell you, he's not like the other girls.

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1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

You'll work this out with Tolya, or you won't.

I'd rather not. But thank you. I really do value your judgement.

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Wait, wait. Go way back.

On 1/15/2020 at 1:41 PM, Lyssa Greymoon said:

"I will only sexytime text with you, but trust me I'm really a woman and you won't catch the gay from it"

 

On 1/15/2020 at 1:50 PM, Fauve Aeon said:

“I’ll briefly speak on voice with you so you can be sure you don’t catch the gay”

 

Are you telling me I have something else to worry about in SL now?! I wonder if updating my antivirus will help.

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