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26 minutes ago, TDD123 said:
41 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

If one party is pressuring for more RL information the way to deal with this is for the other party to simply say "no, I don't share RL information here".

That' s your idea of fairness. I can still lie about it. You will never be guaranteed I won' t. And if I do .. you cannot use LL or it' s TOS to confront me.

No opinion about fairness in relationships will change that.

I.e. I don' t need to be honest to you. I just need you to play along.

I would judge this according to the effect your lies have on those you are manipulating for your enjoyment.
If the lies you are telling caused actual suffering for the other in their RL I'd say you were in the wrong.

For example, what if you insisted you were single in RL (while actually being married), and promised the two of you would be together in RL soon, knowing this would never happen. Your SL relationship then leaves her RL husband in preparation to be with you, disrupting her entire life (even the life of a child).  In this instance I would say you are wrong to place your fantasy play above the RL suffering of another.

Another example, say you insisted to another you were 20 years younger and 30 pounds lighter and totally ripped, when in RL you are are an out-of-shape middle-aged man.  There was never any intention that the two of you meet in RL.
I wouldn't judge this harshly really -- it caused no suffering to your SL partner. 

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4 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

Maybe the term needs a change from "Voice verfified'  into ' Voice verifiable on demand" .

Or just I own a microphone and know how to use it.

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5 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:
44 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Appealing to an outside authority is a chickenshirt way of dealing with others. Like saying one is right because the Bible, one's parent, or one's country deems it so. It's an attempt to place oneself as the ultimate authority -- above or on top of another.

Sigh. It's not an outside authority. It's the rules of the world that we are choosing to inhabit, that we explicitly signed up to accept. If we don't like it, we don't have to be here. This is a false equivalence.

I follow my heart, and not external rules.  Fortunately my heart pretty much agrees with the rules of the SL world.

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3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

If the lies you are telling caused actual suffering for the other in their RL I'd say you were in the wrong.

Then consider : there' s no legal option for you in either case to call me out in RL on my wrong doings within this environment, because YOU have trusted me without verification beyond SL

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4 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

I'll answer a question with a question - if you had an ongoing RL relationship with a person with a weiner and then that person transitioned to a person with a vajayjay, what would it be called?

Because that's the relationship you had.  It was simply a pixel parts instead of real parts.

What we are doing at any point is time is defined by what we know at the time we're doing it. Revelations afterwards don't change that. I can't imagine a scenario in which knowledge after the fact changes what someone was thinking before the fact. Can you?

As far as my ex-husband is concerned, he married a heterosexual woman. His marriage to me eventually failed over an amicable disagreement on the importance of growing the family. He may never know there was more to the story. I won't beat myself up over not knowing there was more to the story myself. I'm thankful I figured it out before it was too late for him.

Anyone who meets me in RL does not see all there is of me. As with SL, I choose what to reveal, and may reveal things I'm not aware of. Taken to the finest point, people will get to know me to varying degrees, but nobody has, or ever will, get all the way there. That includes me.

As a result of this understanding about myself and others, I personally do not see two sides to the discussion we're having here. It's all of a piece. I hope to be perceptive enough to understand the context and expectations of any relationships I have with other people (SL or RL) and endeavor to treat everyone with care and kindness. Despite my best intentions, things may go wrong. Despite other people's best intentions, things may go wrong. SL may allow more room for things to go wrong, but that's just more space on the very same playing field I occupy in RL.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
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1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

I follow my heart, and not external rules.  Fortunately my heart pretty much agrees with the rules of the SL world.

The rules of your heart, as golden as they are, are not the ones we all signed up to accept when we joined SL. (You were saying something about not placing oneself as the ultimate authority?) SL's rules are. We are bound by them only if we choose to be by playing here. And it's fine, in those rules, to lie about who you are if that's how you want SL to be for you. 

Sigh. 

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3 minutes ago, TDD123 said:
8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

If the lies you are telling caused actual suffering for the other in their RL I'd say you were in the wrong.

Then consider : there' s no legal option for you in either case to call me out in RL on my wrong doings within this environment, because YOU have trusted me without verification beyond SL

Oh sure, duh!  You can be as creepy as you want. Great hill to die on!

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6 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Sigh. It's not an outside authority. It's the rules of the world that we are choosing to inhabit, that we explicitly signed up to accept. If we don't like it, we don't have to be here. This is a false equivalence. 

I really feel like I've just reached the point of cycling through the same points over and over and it's giving me a bit of an existential crisis. I also see Tolya made a point of quoting me not once but twice after I asked him not to (no reason he couldn't say the same things without the quotes), and against my better judgement I looked at the first one; just another condescending insult, surprise surprise. 

I'm not saying I'm going to quit the thread, but I don't really get any pleasure from increasingly mean-spirited and repetitive internet ding-dongs. 

There are 2 very good reasons.  One, the whole purpose of a quote is so the person you quote knows you are replying.  Two, because, as I told you, I'll use the the quote feature whenever I wish.

By the way, Luna is saying that you're appealing to an authority outside your interaction with the other person when you say "no, TOS says I don't have to tell you".  It's a childish copout, akin to, "mommy said so" when you're fighitng with your brother.

One who is calling people "ding dongs" shouldn't be whining about being insulted themselves.

Enjoy your afternoon.

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1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

Oh sure, duh!  You can be as creepy as you want. Great hill to die on!

/me muahs Luna .. :P

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11 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:
17 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I follow my heart, and not external rules.  Fortunately my heart pretty much agrees with the rules of the SL world.

The rules of your heart, as golden as they are, are not the ones we all signed up to accept when we joined SL. (You were saying something about not placing oneself as the ultimate authority?) SL's rules are. We are bound by them only if we choose to be by playing here. And it's fine, in those rules, to lie about who you are if that's how you want SL to be for you. 

Sigh. 

So it's okay for you or another to lie to someone in a way that could cause real suffering...disastrous consequences?  Just because a TOS says you can?   Please goddess, let me never meet these kinds of creeps inhabiting our SL world...

* I'll just stay with my oldbie friends who tend to view SL more as a platform...the real world meeting place where we sometimes dash off into roleplaying for fun..

Edited by Luna Bliss
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Ok, so it now appears in this thread I'm buddies with a conservative, Tolya, and Beth (whom I tend to argue with a lot, although increasingly less through the months).

My mind is spinning....I better go binge watch something...  

Edited by Luna Bliss
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@Luna Bliss : JORDAN PETERSON !!! :P

 

Edited by TDD123

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People have the right in SL to lie to their little heart's content. 

Literally no one is disputing that. 

People have the right to keep their RL completely hidden and separate from SL.

Literally no one is disputing that, either. 

People have the right to be complete and utter crap stains in SL, as well as RL.

Literally no one is disputing that. 

People have the right to avoid, to the best of their knowledge and ability, associating with those crap stains.

Why is that under dispute?

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2 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Why is that under dispute?

It' s not. But if you run into them, knowing you have not screened them on it,  and still open yourself up to them and are vulnerable, the hurt caused is made possible by you and not by them.

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3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Ok, so it now appears in this thread I'm buddies with a conservative, Tolya, and Beth (whom I tend to argue with a lot, although increasingly less through the months).

My mind is spinning....I better go binge watch something...  

We're buddies?

YAYYYY!!!!

Do we hug now?  I do enjoy hugs.  With girls, anyway.  Guys hugging guys is how the gay is spread ;)

I've long since lost that sort of surprise.  But then, as a conservative, I tend to be in the very small minority here, so it's a lot more likely I'll notice common ground with someone who I'd normally disagree with on a host of other issues.  I've agreed with Amina (I'm tempted to tag her, but I don't know how, and going to the extra effort of looking up how is more "richardish" than I want to be) in a number of other threads and, as I've said, her central point here is valid.  Unfortunately, even when people don't mean to, often times they start to take disagreements personally, and take attacks on their arguments as attacks on their persons.  Then, things spiral out of control, which sucks.

Can I say sucks?

Don't worry, on another topic I'll no doubt tick you off and instead of hugging me you'll be slapping me.  It's all good.

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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

So it's okay for you or another to lie to someone in a way that could cause real suffering...disastrous consequences? 

It's not ok to claim a right to someone's RL information. That's the crux of it, more basic to the whole experience than me being responsible for how much someone else invests when they've never seen, heard or met me. It is the hill I'll die on. Nobody has a right to someone else's RL information. I'd wager that there are more people, and more dangerous people, trying to get RL information than there are horrible catfishers out to maliciously mess with people's hearts in this virtual world. 

You agreed to this when you signed up. As for disastrous consequences, that's where a little personal responsibility goes a long way. Do not invest more than you can afford to lose in someone you can't see, hear or meet. Especially when that's the way the landscape is shaped.

I said this right at the start before this all went totally nuclear. Like I said, it's just become a cyclical and increasingly nasty internet ding-dong. I'm getting tired.

Edited by Amina Sopwith
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I've never actually bothered to sit down and read the entire TOS before, though I am right now. 

I have found a couple parts that are interesting...

  • Section 1.4: You understand that Linden Lab is a service provider that enables its users to interact online and display and communicate information and Content chosen by those users. Linden Lab does not control or endorse the Content of communications between users or users' interactions with each other or the Service.
  • Section 6.1.4: You agree that you will not post, display, or transmit Content (including any communication(s) with employees of Linden Lab) that is harmful, threatening or harassing, defamatory, libelous, false, inaccurate, misleading, or invades another person's privacy;

Now, of course, they also include quite a few caveats that they will not be responsible for anything any user does. Of course they aren't, but that doesn't mean they are endorsing it, either. 

In my interpretation, when LL says they do not endorse the content of communications between users, they are not giving approval to lying. They aren't not giving approval, either. They're removing themselves from that particular equation. 

It's the bit in section 6.1.4 that I find most interesting, though. I believe a reasonable argument could be made that engaging in a relationship with someone where you are deliberately misleading them is against the TOS. I interpret that as LL saying, "Yeah, that's crappy... don't do that."

Of course others are free to interpret that anyway they want. That doesn't make my interpretation wrong, though. 

 

Edited by Beth Macbain
Dropped a "ship" on relations.

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12 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

It's the bit in section 6.1.4 that I find most interesting, though. I believe a reasonable argument could be made that engaging in a relationship with someone where you are deliberately misleading them is against the TOS. I interpret that as LL saying, "Yeah, that's crappy... don't do that."

Of course others are free to interpret that anyway they want. That doesn't make my interpretation wrong, though. 

 

That is not what I am reading for it says so specifically from a single user' with employees of Linden Lab'  perspective and not between users themselves.

Edited by TDD123

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3 minutes ago, TDD123 said:

That is not what I am reading for it says so specifically from a single user' with employees of Linden Lab'  perspective and not between users themselves.

Actually, that part is in parenthesis. It's an addition, not the point of the entire sentence. If you remove the parenthetical remark, it reads:

Section 6.1.4: You agree that you will not post, display, or transmit Content that is harmful, threatening or harassing, defamatory, libelous, false, inaccurate, misleading, or invades another person's privacy;

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@Beth Macbain : You' re right. I stand corrected.

 

I'm also not disputing in any way your sense of disappointment in the example you have shown us. However, as has been pointed out many times, I still rather advise you caution than pro-actively unmasking possible liars within SL. I hope you see the impossibility of that.

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1 minute ago, TDD123 said:

@Beth Macbain : You' re right. I stand corrected.

 

I'm also not disputing in any way your sense of disappointment in the example you have shown us. However, as has been pointed out many times, I still rather advise you caution than pro-actively unmasking possible liars within SL. I hope you see the impossibility of that.

I'd like to add on to my original story that I didn't pro-actively try to unmask anyone. In this particular instance, I was told by someone else (for absolutely malicious reasons) that the person I was dating was a woman. How did this guy know? Literally everyone else in our friend group but me knew because she had told them. This wasn't some huge secret. She was completely open about it with other people - just not with me. 

I didn't unmask anything. I didn't ask anything. I didn't seek the information. it was given to me by someone who, under the guise of "I think you need to know this because I'm just looking out for you", wanted to get all up in my junk. 

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1 minute ago, TDD123 said:

/me offers Beth a well meant hug.

Much appreciated. 😊

The truth is that I felt like the butt of a joke. This person had mislead me, yes, but finding out that people I considered friends all knew that silly little Beth didn't know she was dating a woman when everyone else knew was where the sense of betrayal came from. I was embarrassed. 

I left SL for a year over that. I don't know that it was intentional - I just didn't feel like logging in and dealing with all that so I didn't. SL wasn't fun for me anymore so I didn't log in. A week became a month and a month became a year as SL moved to the back burner then off the stove completely. I came back because I wanted to play dress up with fitted mesh clothing. In doing that, I expanded my horizons and started meeting incredible people with beautiful souls who respected each other.

I was, and still am, guarded in many ways. I do not share my RL information with every Tom, Richard and Harry that comes along because that would be a very stupid thing to do. I am utterly and completely aware that anyone I meet may not be at all, in the real world, what they present as in SL. I do understand that I am not entitled to any knowledge of anyone's RL, just as they aren't entitled to mine. 

I had someone piece together information from my blog and track me down in the real world. They used details I shared about the death of my brother to find his obituary, and thus, me. To say I was horrified is putting it lightly. 

The odd thing about all of this is that in my travels (and travails) I've found that people who engage in the very explicitly adult side of SL are far more open about their real lives than those who don't engage in slexxing. Perhaps it has to do with the knowledge that we are engaging in efforts to reach the Big O together in the real world even as our avatars are representing us in SL? There seems to be an unspoken expectation of trust, as well as respect, that we won't cross boundaries into interfering with each other's real lives? I don't know. I just know that the people in the parts of SL I have spent the majority of my time in have been far more open (without prompting) about their RL than those who live a strictly PG SL lives. 

It just goes to show that our experiences in SL are all different. I have friends and lovers that, even thought we've never met in RL, I consider RL friends. I know exactly who they are and they know who I am. Those relationships have formed over time, just as any relationship does. 

I mean, it's not like we've exchange addresses and credit card numbers. There is being open, and there is being stupid. Trust isn't given immediately... trust is earned over time. 

I've gotten the impression throughout this thread that assumptions have been made about how I conduct my SL, and what I demand or expect from anyone. Those assumptions have been quite ridiculously wrong. 

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