Sometimes I Despair of the Mainland

[Raspberry Crystal]

34 minutes ago, Cinos Field said:

What I wouldn't give for Bellisseria style mainland but without the linden homes.

Which bits of Belli would you keep? The covenant, the gaps between properties and the landscaping?

[Cinos Field]

Just now, Raspberry Crystal said:

Which bits of Belli would you keep? The covenant, the gaps between properties and the landscaping?

Along those lines! It doesn't have to be the exact same details, but generally the "no plywood boards and junk randomly tossed about" kind of rules, no excessive script usage, no aggressive ban orbs and such. And yes, gaps big enough to at least walk through.

[Raspberry Crystal]

Just now, Cinos Field said:

long those lines! It doesn't have to be the exact same details, but generally the "no plywood boards and junk randomly tossed about" kind of rules, no excessive script usage, no aggressive ban orbs and such. And yes, gaps big enough to at least walk through.

...and no sky junk below 2000m!

[Syo Emerald]

3 hours ago, Raspberry Crystal said:

Which bits of Belli would you keep? The covenant, the gaps between properties and the landscaping?

For me it would be the landscaping. Thoughtful developed land, that actually has homes in mind,  with nice decorative elements inbetween and a connection to at least some sort of path or street close by.

[Cinos Field]

4 hours ago, Raspberry Crystal said:

...and no sky junk below 2000m!

Honestly I'd say 1000 meters, the higher you go the more jittery all objects get, and it gets really noticeable around 2000.

Plus 1000 is a fine number where they're not generally visible from even aircraft.

[ChinRey]

56 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

For me it would be the landscaping. Thoughtful developed land, that actually has homes in mind,  with nice decorative elements inbetween and a connection to at least some sort of path or street close by.

Make those decorative items inbetween less monotonous and laggy and the streets and roads a bit less angular. Add optional complete scene packages (with house and garden) for the parcels. Implement and enforce just enough rules to ensure a reasonably consistent style across the area, nothing more and nothing less. Create a dozen or more such areas, each with a distinctively different style.

Two questions though, how many parcels should there ideally be on each sim and how big should they be?

[Marianne Little]

4 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Make those decorative items inbetween less monotonous and laggy and the streets and roads a bit less angular. Add optional complete scene packages (with house and garden) for the parcels. Implement and enforce just enough rules to ensure a reasonably consistent style across the area, nothing more and nothing less. Create a dozen or more such areas, each with a distinctively different style.

Two questions though, how many parcels should there ideally be on each sim and how big should they be?

I do not feel the need for Bellisseria landscaping down to the exact detail either. It is said that creating such landscaping is too time consuming.

I really want fixed parcels, dividing must not be allowed. With gaps between.

One thing I wish for is some terraforming. So one could place a pool properly. It does not need to be full landscaping, 3-4 m up and down?

It is up to 22 Linden homes in Bellisseria. So maybe a number like that?

I do wish for 2048 parcels that 2 premiums can share, or one premium that pays an additional fee?

 

[ChinRey]

4 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I do not feel the need for Bellisseria landscaping down to the exact detail either. It is said that creating such landscaping is too time consuming.

It can be but good landscaping adds sooo much to the quality of the build! I think it's worth it.

 

9 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

It is up to 22 Linden homes in Bellisseria. So maybe a number like that?

I thought it was 24 but close enough. But don't think about resource use or anything like that, only what is the ideal house density. Obviously if the houses are too spread out, it's hard to make a community but if they are too close to each other, people start getting on each others' nerves. Perhaps the ideal solution would be a combnation fairly densely built suburban areas and sparser rural areas?

 

15 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

I do wish for 2048 parcels that 2 premiums can share, or one premium that pays an additional fee?

Ignore fees and prim limits for now, how much space would people want? Too much and filling it all up is too much work for the casual users, too little and there's not enough room.

We should probably all take into account parcel shapes. A 1024 can be made absolutely square, a 2048 will either be very oblong or irregularly shaped. It doesn't have to be those "standard" 512, 1024, 2048 etc. sizes either. How about a 36x60 m parcel for example? That's 2160 m2 and golden ration proportions with space for a good sized house and a well proportioned garden all around it.

[Marianne Little]

1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

It can be but good landscaping adds sooo much to the quality of the build! I think it's worth it.

 

I thought it was 24 but close enough. But don't think about resource use or anything like that, only what is the ideal house density. Obviously if the houses are too spread out, it's hard to make a community but if they are too close to each other, people start getting on each others' nerves. Perhaps the ideal solution would be a combnation fairly densely built suburban areas and sparser rural areas?

 

Ignore fees and prim limits for now, how much space would people want? Too much and filling it all up is too much work for the casual users, too little and there's not enough room.

We should probably all take into account parcel shapes. A 1024 can be made absolutely square, a 2048 will either be very oblong or irregularly shaped. It doesn't have to be those "standard" 512, 1024, 2048 etc. sizes either. How about a 36x60 m parcel for example? That's 2160 m2 and golden ration proportions with space for a good sized house and a well proportioned garden all around it.

I am not sure about 22 per region. Maybe it is 24 at the most. 

I am not used to think in other sizes.... A house is often at least 30 m at the widest. https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Cocoon-House-PG-100-Original-mesh/11512609

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Onsu-Lakeville-House-Greige/16485809

It would be necessary with open room around the parcels. Unless there should be a rule like "no build closer than 4 m to the border". It will be so hopeless to enforce. I would say the parcel edge is the hard limit, and the room between does so it's not up in your neighbor's face.

Edit: And no Linden/mole built fences that can't be moved. So many in Bellisseria wish to move or remove those. With all the different houses, people need to place their own hedges and fences. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Marianne Little

[Mollymews]

1 hour ago, Marianne Little said:

A house is often at least 30 m at the widest

whenever I do chat to people who make for the commercial market, I always suggest that for the Premium entry market, to make houses within a 24 x 24 foot print which includes porches and decking

24 x 24 when centered leaves an 8m space on all sides of a 32x32 1024m parcel. The person can move the house back or forward or toward a corner. leaving 4m on the short sides and 12m on the long sides.  12 x 32 is quite a big space for a garden at the front or back.  Big meaning relative to the total size of the parcel

 

[Marianne Little]

5 hours ago, Mollymews said:

whenever I do chat to people who make for the commercial market, I always suggest that for the Premium entry market, to make houses within a 24 x 24 foot print which includes porches and decking

24 x 24 when centered leaves an 8m space on all sides of a 32x32 1024m parcel. The person can move the house back or forward or toward a corner. leaving 4m on the short sides and 12m on the long sides.  12 x 32 is quite a big space for a garden at the front or back.  Big meaning relative to the total size of the parcel

 

Many moves the house closer to the parcel border, and I mean they should not be forced to keep a distance to it. It would be neighbor's quarrel, they would use measuring sticks and report each other. Or some will play police, fly around and report houses that stand close to the border.

I do not want such nitpicking. I think it is best to say it's free use inside the parcel, and the common ground between separates the parcels. Free use, but height restrictions of course. That limits people from using castles and fortresses. 

It is mighty fine to have more than 351 Li. That is a selling point. The new model can be for people who outgrow that limit and want it doubled, and pay more for it.

And a parcel big enough to have houses that is a real upgrade - in size - from the Linden Homes.

[Raspberry Crystal]

Why not mixed size plots? This would mimic real life. 512, 1024 and 2048 for sharers. I agree with @Marianne Little about those hard borders with gaps, but with @ChinRey that Mole made landscaping items in the gaps would really help the look and make a theme.

[Sister Nova]

Some very nice ideas coming out, but I can’t help but wonder if the map would show all yellow along any coast line where the owners are just flipping the land to make profit. Would the owners have to leave a house rezzed? The fact that some houses in Bellisseria are empty has never bothered me so I guess this would be the same as long as there is a house of some sort there.

With regard to number of parcels per region, I’d have to say it should depend upon the size of the parcels. As Bellisseria already has 512 and 1024, I’d suggest the parcels for the ‘Covenant Mainland’ should include 1536 & 2048, maybe even at least one 4096 per region too. The ‘reparcelling’ of land should be disabled, so no one buys a parcel and then cuts it in size abandoning or selling the off cut purely in order to reduce their tier.

I’ll probably think of more things after posting... it’s always nice to dream  

[Rufferta]

3 hours ago, Walpurgisnacht said:

Some very nice ideas coming out, but I can’t help but wonder if the map would show all yellow along any coast line where the owners are just flipping the land to make profit. Would the owners have to leave a house rezzed? The fact that some houses in Bellisseria are empty has never bothered me so I guess this would be the same as long as there is a house of some sort there.

With regard to number of parcels per region, I’d have to say it should depend upon the size of the parcels. As Bellisseria already has 512 and 1024, I’d suggest the parcels for the ‘Covenant Mainland’ should include 1536 & 2048, maybe even at least one 4096 per region too. The ‘reparcelling’ of land should be disabled, so no one buys a parcel and then cuts it in size abandoning or selling the off cut purely in order to reduce their tier.

I’ll probably think of more things after posting... it’s always nice to dream  

I like the idea of having fixed sizes for parcels. I also would agree with a stipulation that these parcels not be split down into smaller portions to save tier. Imagine if a RL homeowner said "I'm tired of paying taxes on that 10 x 50 spot in my back yard, I'm going to abandone it and let the City take care of it."

[Pussycat Catnap]

On 1/30/2020 at 3:50 AM, Raspberry Crystal said:

Which bits of Belli would you keep? The covenant, the gaps between properties and the landscaping?

Yes

Basicallt Bay City, Nautilus, Shermerville, and Horizons - but with the Bellisseria covenant.

Of those 4... only Bay City looks nice and has good community, and ALMOST Shermerville.

- Both of them for the same reason, a single famous resident that has worked tirelessly to build up a larger community of people that also support the mission - and has both moles and lindens involved as well. BUT... when problem builds occur, they are still stuck... their power is limited to griefers and basically 'hugging in' new land owners until those people 'relent' and either leave or decide they like these people and join in on it.

 

Nautilus and Horizons are basically 'old linden homes' and 'bellisseria' minus the covenant and minus the Citizens groups... And the result is... they are actually WORSE than regular mainland...

So space and landscaping cannot save you - they are needed, but they are a detriment unless coupled to a covenant that can make them a feature.

  

On 1/30/2020 at 7:26 AM, Syo Emerald said:

For me it would be the landscaping. Thoughtful developed land, that actually has homes in mind,  with nice decorative elements inbetween and a connection to at least some sort of path or street close by.

I agree, but it's also why Horizons makes me sad for the Lindens and Moles. It was obviously beautifully worked on by a very dedicated team. The actual 'Linden/Mole' builds are amazing, and it's one of the most land-vehicle friendly places in SL if... you could remove all the bloated builds (when you hit more empty sims things are just so great with nice roads and fun turns)...

You can see a precursor to Bellisseria there - a lot of the tricks that we see in Bellisseria seem to have been developed there.

And then they released it without any covenant...

And it was basically like throwing a lamb into a pack of wolves...

If I was one of the Moles or Lindens on that project... I would feel pretty horrible about what happened to a clear work of love... It is a solid example of a case where I feel like the team that made that place got disrespected by us residents...

 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Pussycat Catnap

[Abnor Mole]

 

On 1/31/2020 at 12:48 PM, Pussycat Catnap said:

Yes

Basicallt Bay City, Nautilus, Shermerville, and Horizons - but with the Bellisseria covenant.

Of those 4... only Bay City looks nice and has good community, and ALMOST Shermerville.

- Both of them for the same reason, a single famous resident that has worked tirelessly to build up a larger community of people that also support the mission - and has both moles and lindens involved as well. BUT... when problem builds occur, they are still stuck... their power is limited to griefers and basically 'hugging in' new land owners until those people 'relent' and either leave or decide they like these people and join in on it.

 

Nautilus and Horizons are basically 'old linden homes' and 'bellisseria' minus the covenant and minus the Citizens groups... And the result is... they are actually WORSE than regular mainland...

So space and landscaping cannot save you - they are needed, but they are a detriment unless coupled to a covenant that can make them a feature.

  

I agree, but it's also why Horizons makes me sad for the Lindens and Moles. It was obviously beautifully worked on by a very dedicated team. The actual 'Linden/Mole' builds are amazing, and it's one of the most land-vehicle friendly places in SL if... you could remove all the bloated builds (when you hit more empty sims things are just so great with nice roads and fun turns)...

You can see a precursor to Bellisseria there - a lot of the tricks that we see in Bellisseria seem to have been developed there.

And then they released it without any covenant...

And it was basically like throwing a lamb into a pack of wolves...

If I was one of the Moles or Lindens on that project... I would feel pretty horrible about what happened to a clear work of love... It is a solid example of a case where I feel like the team that made that place got disrespected by us residents...

 

 

Pussycat gets it I think. All of those things in Bellisseria from the covenant, to no ban lines, to not being able to sell parcels, to no commercial activity, to the filled space between parcels all work in conjunction with one another to make it NOT like mainland with the intent of avoiding many of the problems that exist on mainland. Take out any one of them and it could potentially ruin the whole. Even those pesky Mole built fences and hedges many people don't seem to like serve a purpose. They dissuade residents from extending their builds far outside of their parcel lines like many have gotten used to doing on mainland. 

[ChinRey]

On 2/13/2020 at 8:25 PM, Abnor Mole said:

Pussycat gets it I think. All of those things in Bellisseria from the covenant, to no ban lines, to not being able to sell parcels, to no commercial activity, to the filled space between parcels all work in conjunction with one another to make it NOT like mainland with the intent of avoiding many of the problems that exist on mainland.

I've noticed all of that and it's great to hear it was a deliberate and conscious decision.

I have been quite critical about Bellisseria on the forums but I have to emphasize, that's all about the technical execution. I absolute love the concept and really like the design.

However, Bellisseria is one theme. It's a theme with four variations but still a single theme, US upper middle class, and Starbucks coffee isn't everybody's cup of tea. Add to this that the high lag level makes it inaccessible to many (that's what my technical criticism has been all about) and the actual target user groups for the continent make up only a small fraction of SL's existing and an even smaller of SL's potential user base.

Look at Bellisseria's popularity. Multiply by a hundred and you get an idea of the real potential of that kind of themed areas. There's no way you can cover all the bases on your own though. You would need a hundred Moles to get the work done and you'd need people familiar with a wide variety of styles and traditions. Even the best builder is really only good within the style(s) they're familiar with and I would probably be just as lost trying to make an American home as you wuold be trying to make an European one (and we'd both be way out of our depths trying to handle Asian, African or South American).

I'm sure we'd both lvoe to see the SL map covered with themed regions in a wide variety of styles to accomodate a wide varitery of virtual home owner but how can we make this happen? Any ideas?

[WillowTenage]

I think the best of both worlds is to give people who want privacy, the ability to hide everything on their parcel from others - while allowing people the ability to roam through them without any hindrance.  There would no longer be a need for security orbs or ban lines, as far as anyone is concerned, all objects and avatars would not exist on the property, it would just be empty land.  People could travel uninhibited without a concern of being teleported back to their home location, or getting a vehicle locked in ban lines, and those that want privacy can have it.  Everyone wins in this scenario, no one is inconvenienced.

[Ardy Lay]

5 minutes ago, WillowTenage said:

I think the best of both worlds is to give people who want privacy, the ability to hide everything on their parcel from others - while allowing people the ability to roam through them without any hindrance.  There would no longer be a need for security orbs or ban lines, as far as anyone is concerned, all objects and avatars would not exist on the property, it would just be empty land.  People could travel uninhibited without a concern of being teleported back to their home location, or getting a vehicle locked in ban lines, and those that want privacy can have it.  Everyone wins in this scenario, no one is inconvenienced.

Nevermind that there is nothing left to see and nobody there to see it.  We have that now in parts of SL.  We call it the deserted wasteland.

[WillowTenage]

17 minutes ago, Ardy Lay said:

Nevermind that there is nothing left to see and nobody there to see it.  We have that now in parts of SL.  We call it the deserted wasteland.

True, but the people that want that privacy, don't want to be seen regardless.  It would make the land a bit more barren, for those that prefer such an option.  It is not like we can explore such areas regardless, but what we do gain is the ability to explore places which is nice, we can easily gain access to places that are fine with people being on their property.  

Edited February 15, 2020 by WillowTenage

[Ardy Lay]

If scripted GTFO machines annoy you, use tools available to map and avoid them.

http://shergoodaviation.com/radar.php

[Bitsy Buccaneer]

On 1/15/2020 at 8:44 PM, Beth Macbain said:

Why do people want to change what the mainland is? It's like knowingly moving into a poor neighborhood and wanting to gentrify it, then getting mad when the "undesirables" who were there first refuse to move out. 

Depends on your time frame/frame of reference. Some still remember when mainland was a place of sharing and serendipity, when people you'd happen into on your travels (or theirs) would be open to conversation about whatever project they (or you) were working on, and those conversations would lead into other subjects, or building tips, or friendships and collaborations. It was often crowded and chaotic, but always an intriguing and diverse world.

I came in when it was changing and becoming more cut off and isolated, that was the gentrification. Back then I so wished I'd gotten a new computer earlier so I could have been part of the earlier days. Now I feel fortunate to have experienced a bit of it at least.

Some wanting to open it back up are older than me. They know even better that we've lost something so incredibly unique and precious. It's not gentrification to yearn for a bit of it again.

[Mollymews]

On 1/16/2020 at 8:28 AM, animats said:

A non-continent. You can't see other regions. You can't walk to other regions. You can't hear other regions.

if Linden offered 1024m sized regions for the same price as my Premium account I would get one like this for my home

until then all I can get for my Premium tier is a mainland parcel which gives me some of this

[Marianne Little]

On 1/15/2020 at 9:44 PM, Beth Macbain said:

Says who?

Again, if you want HOAs and covenants, there are landlords who offer it. 

Why do people want to change what the mainland is? It's like knowingly moving into a poor neighborhood and wanting to gentrify it, then getting mad when the "undesirables" who were there first refuse to move out. 

When there is this discussion, it is always met with one or two that claim "the others" will take over and demand mainland to change. Most people I have seen, is discussing a different place with new rules, a mainland 2. Linden Lab are moving out the old Linden Home owners, and it will be empty land there.

Mainland can stay as it is. I am fine with low skyboxes, banlines and large, glowing builds. As long as it is far, far away from me. Linden Lab is working on a new Premium, a level over existing Premium. This new land option could be for them. It could be assigned a new name like "Linden Estates". That way, mainland can keep its heritage name, and all will be happy. 

 

[animats]

How about trying a new covenant on the Sharp Continent, the old Teen Grid? That's been underutilized since the separate Teen Grid was phased out.

Hyperion, on Sharp Continent. A nice little city, but empty and neglected now.

North of Sharp Continent would be a good place for the next continent of premium homes, too. That could connect more continents, and Hyperion could be a convenient commercial district for the premium homes.

Edited February 16, 2020 by animats