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Thought I'd share pics of the new Blush and Debi with the Erin head. Same head for both but different skins and shapes. Here's Blush and Debi Both utilize system layers for

I have both heads and have been very impressed with them. I have been wearing one or the other since I bought them, and that is saying something for me. I switch heads a lot! A couple things of note a

I wasn't completely happy with Erin, but its still a good head. I'll keep playing around with it though. This is a shot with Lelutka Nuri feel a little better with this one:  

Posted Images

6 hours ago, Ayesha Bisiani said:

I love Lelutka Evolution as well. I've attached some pics of my new skin (BOM system layers only) worn by Lelutka Nova.

Do you think with BOM in place, appliers will eventually be phased out? I love the BOM system, but I'm getting a lot of questions as to why I don't include appliers.

Appliers still have a use, adding materials.

At a recent UG meeting the use of ALM was discussed. The use of materials is dependent on ALM being enabled. So, how many people are using ALM? We don't know. I have  yet to hear a number from a viewer design team or the Lindens. I always have it turned on. But, some think it makes a major hit on performance, which I don't see in testing, and therefore run their viewers with it disabled. Those people never see materials. I think that sad.

For skin disabling ALM is probably not a big disadvantage. I enjoyed my 'wet' skin with water drops and how they look with ALM enabled. Now that we have BOM I need a new set of water drops for my body, face, feet, and hands. I have yet to find a set that works with my Slink and GA.EG parts. So, I use my pre-BOM parts when I want a wet skin look. For that I need the older appliers that do Diffuse, Normal, and Specular maps.

Whether they will be phased out depends on on what the Lab does with materials. It was suggested we discard materials because no one uses them. Those making the suggestion have no more information/data on who does and doesn't use materials than I do. They too don't know.

BOM does not handle materials. I think it unlikely it ever will. There are technical complications that have no easy or simple solution. Therefore, it is a big, complex, and difficult to get right change to SL. This means it is unlikely to be tackled during the next 2 to 3 years. I base that on what the Lindens have said about their development plans. Which for now has the matter of Apple Mac support as a high priority. With OpenGL, the basic engine of SL rendering, being depreciated by all and abandoned by Apple and ATI in favor of new tech... something has to change. While no decisions have been made and their research continues a new render system is being considered as a near future "must do". But, changing the render engine in SL is a really big deal. We just saw EPP take about a year longer than expected because of complications in the render engine.

The simple answer to your question is, near term, no. Expect appliers to have a use materials-wise for the foreseeable future, 2 or 3 years.

Edited by Nalates Urriah
Apple not Apply :/
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36 minutes ago, Nalates Urriah said:

Appliers still have a use, adding materials.

 

Thanks for the detailed and informative response Nalates. I hear you on the advantage of having materials. A system skin layer is certainly limited in that regard, however, I find that even when I wear my BOM skin on the system layer I can still play with the wetness, gloss, makeup highlights that my mesh body and head give me. I'm not sure if this is only typical of the Maitreya body/Lelutka head I am currently wearing and unavailable on other mesh bodies and heads, but I expect similar settings are available. So if one can enable these settings on mesh and have these appear on a system BOM skin, why then duplicate the process with appliers.

I hope I am being clear, as my knowledge of appliers is limited at best. 

You are probably right though, and appliers will likely stay around for a while as those have become the new normal, but I hope more people make the transition to Bakes on Mesh (or at least give it a chance) as it really is a brilliant system.

I'm attaching a pic of my BOM skin worn on the system layer with water droplets and gloss activated on my mesh head and mesh body.
 

skinwithmaterials.jpg

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5 hours ago, Ayesha Bisiani said:

Thanks for the detailed and informative response Nalates. I hear you on the advantage of having materials. A system skin layer is certainly limited in that regard, however, I find that even when I wear my BOM skin on the system layer I can still play with the wetness, gloss, makeup highlights that my mesh body and head give me. I'm not sure if this is only typical of the Maitreya body/Lelutka head I am currently wearing and unavailable on other mesh bodies and heads, but I expect similar settings are available. So if one can enable these settings on mesh and have these appear on a system BOM skin, why then duplicate the process with appliers.

I hope I am being clear, as my knowledge of appliers is limited at best. 

You are probably right though, and appliers will likely stay around for a while as those have become the new normal, but I hope more people make the transition to Bakes on Mesh (or at least give it a chance) as it really is a brilliant system.

I'm attaching a pic of my BOM skin worn on the system layer with water droplets and gloss activated on my mesh head and mesh body.

Yes. You can. And there is no other place to wear a BOM skin than on the system layers.

A system skin is worn on the Classic avatar system layers. When mesh bodies are worn and their Uses-BOM-flag is set the viewer will use no texture on the classic body. The viewer then renders any parts of it that show in the red, yellow, blue warning colors. the BOM system composites the skin textures and returns a temporary texture. The viewer uses that texture on the mesh body. So, with a BOM mesh body we are seeing the mesh body with a texture the BOM system took from the system layer, baked, and sent to the viewer to be applied to the body. Sort of a convoluted Applier.

So, instead of the HUD saying use this texture, normal and specular maps it just deals with the maps and settings.

If you were using the build panel on a prim you would drop a texture in the Texture window and it would appear on the prim. You are manually doing what an applier does. You or an applier get a texture ID and tell the system to put that texture on the prim. If you want to use a BOM composite on the prim you use the Build panel to set the prim/mesh to use a texture or set of textures and run it/then through the BOM system and apply the result to the prim/mesh.

I hope I am getting across that only a small change has been made to the process with BOM. As far as HUDs and primis/meshes are concerned they are still using a texture and all the settings available for material, glow, shine, etc. that we have had for years. The only change is where the texture comes from and how we tell the system which textures to use for compositing.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 1/15/2020 at 2:04 PM, steeljane42 said:

Those skins you posted below are all from glam affair, you can find them at their main store. There's also 3 more from GA on recent events (C88, K9 and Access).

Moods are a bit overdone, yes. Definitely going to send them a feedback about that sometime soon, since they ask for feedback anyway. Most calm/idle mood is awake, it's close to old neutral and sublte ones. "Lively", "coquettish" and "looking" moods can be combined with eyelids in norm position for somewhat subtle mood as well, since eyelids animations are higher priority than moods ones.

I know I'm late to the thread so I hope people are still looking at it. I need help with using Glam Affair's Demo's for BOM. I have the Lelutka Evolution Nova head and am trying to apply the Heidi, Leilani and Rosalie demo skins. I tried another skin place and it looks like their files were like classic av skins. The icon was a little person and the demo skins appeared fine. The Glam Affair BOM skins are tattoo layers (they use that icon in inventory). The GA ones aren't showing up on my head when I wear (add) them.

I've clicked the Bakes on Mesh button at the top of the hud off and on. My head is either invisible or just flat gray. I don't see anything on the Lel hud for tattoo layers. What am I doing wrong?

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45 minutes ago, aresdarkheart said:

I've clicked the Bakes on Mesh button at the top of the hud off and on. My head is either invisible or just flat gray. I don't see anything on the Lel hud for tattoo layers. What am I doing wrong?

Invisible head means you are wearing an alpha that hides your head when you enable BoM. Assuming alpha you're wearing is mod: right click it>edit>uncheck "head alpha" checkmark in there>save. Then with BoM enabled in Lelutka's hud do apply (add them) demo "tattoo" skins again, you should be able to see them just fine. Make sure you don't wear any extra alphas or/and edit them as well.

Edited by steeljane42
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  • 5 months later...

HD brows are great! Look forward to seeing what third party creators do with them. The new HUD lipsticks are much more usable out of the box. If you want to do the boundless, try going from the new included default shape. I mean, obvious advice that people always give, but over the years I have come to assume default shapes will be awful. They have done a great job with default shapes as a starting point. I was inclined to stick with my old shape but after a couple days of fiddling I see the benefit of the new rigging, especially in profile.

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If the head you use was released after Fluer (if it's Fluer or Ryn) the 2.5 update doesn't change the rigging at all - so they claim no shape adjustments needed there.

If it was one of the others the shape changes radically and... you cannot 100% replicate many old looks. But you can get close.

As for HD this and that - I'm opposed to such things on principle. They increase gridwide lag. But at least it's mild and not all over the place like the Catwa update - and the head is still native BOM and lower lag than other major competitors.

This is me on Ryn 2.0. I will get a 2.5 ready soon in the same outfit:

Switched to using Lelutka Ryn mesh head

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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Here is an alt with Nova on 2.0:

b048331bffb8a5908813dc6a2184c12a.pngfa91b52e3d8dc78c3890367f8c580b8c.png

 

And an attempt to make a similar look on 2.5:

177add31b25335e2d246172820e8c122.pnga0dee9296d8dd700dac893c6501137c7.png

Notice some changes in the bridge of the nose and I made the eyes less 'wide open' because it didn't look as good when open anymore. I find the upper eyelid crease has to be controlled by editing not your shape, but your 2003 era 'system hair''s brow tab.

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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HD brows. I am not going to use them, but am happy for those who pull their hair away from the face. I have problems enough with HD eyeshadow.

Tell me where I can buy layer BoM eyemakeup for Evolution, I want to throw the HD eyemakeup away! I have had enough of alpha clashing, one of the major reasons I was welcoming BoM.

Does the 2.5 head with different bones change the way eyemakeup look around the eyes? Can I use BoM for another brand like Genus now and have it look good?

I have not bothered to get an update yet. If it helps me with BoM around the eyes, I am running over and update now.

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I kinda wish there was a version that didn't have the hd layers. I almost exclusively wear bom make up save for hd lipstick occasionally for pictures. But typically if you ever encounter me just in the world I am only wearing my bom. I am on day 3 of tweaking my shape with the new Lake rig. I like the results for the most part, but I look very different , almost like they just gave me a free new head >.< I like the hud, it feels even more streamlined .

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I just got the 2.5 update and I`m so impressed with boundless version....Not sure if anyone tested t properly but you can literally achieve any shape you want and no need for any special HUDs, sliders do it all! Neck fits seamlessly to any body, multiple material options, super smart dev kit, testing tools, teeth options, piercings, HD, revamped moods, braces and so on...

I don`t know why they did not advertise this  more, especially after Catwa released their next gen heads and I suspect most people are completely unaware of what can be done with 2.5 Evo boundless version...

btw, boundless won`t work with your old shape, but you can definitely achieve the same look and refine it beyond what was originally doable!

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Here is my head on Ryn 2.5:

38fd9d62d393c3eebb519809749b6028.jpg

Nearly identical to the Ryn 2.0. The only change was that in making sure there was no change... I found out my eyes needed to lower the 'eye bug' setting a bit because in some extreme animations there was pop-through. That was true with the 2.0 as well - I just hadn't noticed it before the update made me test for it... 😉

(I'm trying to make my eyes look 'slightly inhuman', so I'm hitting up against things most people won't hit.)

 

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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Disclaimer: if you are easily triggered by descriptions of what people didn't like about a product, best not to read.

TLDR:  I am extremely disappointed in the direction that Lelutka is heading with some aspects of the v2.5 updates.

Detailed:

I have no interest in buying any HD appliers.  They are basically a brand lock-in and I don't like the look of much that is out there in any case.  In addition, adding extra HD mesh layers for eyeshadow and eyebrows for v2.5 is adding unnecessary applier layers that BoM advocates constantly rail against, takes Lelutka heads further and further away from being BoM-only and encourages people to be wearing up to 4 more 1024 textures than they would with just BoM.  Now, if you want to use BoM only, you have two extra applier layers in addition to the existing two to carry around than you do with v2.0

At this point I would have preferred optional HD layers that are added separately.  After all, this is exactly the reason that heads with applier layers were characterized as "not-native/pure-BoM" in the first place.  Lelutka are not far away from having a similar amount of applier layers as were on the Origins heads at v3.4.

Lelutka has dropped Omega support for skins/lashes which was completely unnecessary, uncalled for and does nothing for any kind of efficiency over v2.0.  This is especially so as I have discovered that on Lake v2.5 that Lelutka Origins skin and lashes appliers still, in fact, work as they did on v2.0 and earlier versions which is probably the same for all v2.5 heads.
So dropping Omega support for skins and lashes is incomprehensibly anti-customer without any valid reasons why.  You cannot even say with a straight face at this point that it is to promote BoM usage.

This is especially so when you consider that applier skin wearing people now seem to have acquired slightly better options than in v2.0 which make wearing applier skins more viable (if you are using Lelutka appliers) because you can now have applied HD eyebrows in addition to two HD shadow layers and HD lips and the only things really missing for people wanting to stick with applier skins are the hairbases which not everyone uses anyway ... and of course now the removed Omega support.

The included bound/unbound versions is a nice addition to the update, gives more flexibility to these heads as well as the ability to support v2.0 shapes (mostly).  I expect though for many people who have created the look they are happy with, they are likely to stick with the bound heads as these mostly preserve the existing shape looks even though there appears to be something slightly different around the eye and mouth area on my Lake update.  Possibly the mesh smoothing referred to in the update notes.  This may drive some users to avoid the update altogether as it did with the mesh changes around the v3.0-v3.2 Origins updates when it was denied there were changes despite the evidence to the contrary.

They also call the Bound version "Dated" which seems to be designed at making using that version seem unappealing by characterising it as such.  Lots of people don't like the idea of using "Dated" stuff and this will have that effect on those people.  How Dated is v2.0 in reality?  For people who bought their heads recently before the update it certainly isn't.  It is a shame that they have decided to use this agenda laden terminology.  I personally think that vendors should stop trying to steer people's usage of their products in a particular direction like this.  If you don't want people to use something a certain way, remove that way.  Making it seem like a bad thing to use is anti-customer and confusing for people.

I will pre-empt those who might respond with "You don't have to use this update".  Obviously, I don't have to use this update.
I imagine someone will also point out that you cannot please everyone.  Of course not, nor do I expect Lelutka to please me.  However there is some real confusing messaging around BoM, appliers and efficiency around this product line in my opinion with this update.  On one hand people have been steered towards BoM and away from appliers and yet here we have more applier support with the inefficiencies that brings.
To those who inevitably will say, that it is a "mountain out of a mole hill"  there is no mountain here just an honest write-up of the things I didn't like.  It isn't the end of the the world.

I most likely will stick with v2.0 going forward.  Given the direction of this product, I think it is fair to say that this is most likely the last Lelutka head purchase for me as well.  I will also point out to anyone thinking I am just a hater that I have been a very satisfied long time (since bento heads were released) Lelutka customer up until now, helped many others on the Lelutka group over a long period of time and sung Lelutka's praises to many others other on many occasions.  I am anything but an Lelutka hater just a dismayed customer who feels like they are losing their way regardless of how beautiful the heads are.
 

Edited by Gabriele Graves
correction
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3 hours ago, MaxMare said:

I don`t know why they did not advertise this  more, especially after Catwa released their next gen heads and I suspect most people are completely unaware of what can be done with 2.5 Evo boundless version...

btw, boundless won`t work with your old shape, but you can definitely achieve the same look and refine it beyond what was originally doable!

I barely seen any people with those "hdpro" heads in world, so they probably don't consider it as a competition already, especially considering the (now permanent) price of 4k vs 6k.

As for the shape... I'm having troubles getting Nova to look the same with boundless update. It's still pretty good and even better in some aspects, but it's not an exact copy. Mostly the chin area that is changed as it obviously had locked bones before giving the head its characteristics, but now with that limitation removed it's different there. I'd like to believe that I know a thing or two about shape making as I was making my own shapes for 8 years already (after initial couple of months of getting used to SL in general). Still not sure if I'll stick to the new or keep using "dated" version. Or perhaps just going to grab Fleur which I did like as much as I like Nova, but I don't switch heads, bodies, skins or shapes daily, so I have no use for the "backup" head. But now maybe it's a good opportunity to change.

 

1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Given the direction of this product, I think it is fair to say that this is most likely the last Lelutka head purchase for me as well.

Your choice, of course. But given how other big head makers are... you won't be happy with them either. Even take Catwa's "hdpro" release. Their so called "new revolutionary features" are mostly just a bunch of deformers for, well, deforming the head what shape sliders allow you to, which is nothing but a bloat, way more than hd stuff is (which they also have). And I'm fully expecting next line of Genus heads an/or update they'll release at some point to throw in more hd stuff as well. It looks pretty (especially on static pictures in blogs, where real time issues with alphas are not present), it's on demand and apparently it sells.

I suppose adding another version of the head with separate hd layers would be good, but as the only option... no thanks, not while current attachment limit is a thing.

And not sure what was denied during 3.x update, I remember talking to Jaden myself a couple days after that update happened and broke my skin on Simone, as well as added extra puffy (and not fixable through sliders) eyelids. He did expain the reasoning behind the update and a few possible workarounds. And their CSR at that time (Mavi I think? could be wrong) had a mini guide of how to get mostly the same shape with new updated mesh at her profile as well, just a few days after the update happened.

Anyway, I don't think you're a hater, and it's okay to have own opinion no matter how different it is. I'll just say that I'm personally most happy with Lelutka heads (using them since pre-bento days). They are not perfect, far from it, but in my opinion they are miles ahead of any competitors in quality of pretty much everything, from animations to visuals to functionality and ease of use.

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1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I have no interest in buying any HD appliers.  They are basically a brand lock-in and I don't like the look of much that is out there in any case.  In addition, adding extra HD mesh layers for eyeshadow and eyebrows for v2.5 is adding unnecessary applier layers that BoM advocates constantly rail against, takes Lelutka heads further and further away from being BoM-only and encourages people to be wearing up to 4 more 1024 textures than they would with just BoM.  Now, if you want to use BoM only, you have two extra applier layers in addition to the existing two to carry around than you do with v2.0

At this point I would have preferred optional HD layers that are added separately.  After all, this is exactly the reason that heads with applier layers were characterized as "not-native/pure-BoM" in the first place.  Lelutka are not far away from having a similar amount of applier layers as were on the Origins heads at v3.4.
 

Agreed, though I am going to go with the brand for now because others choices are even worse.

Here is a representation of what you're speaking of:

2.5: 104,178 triangle mesh

2.0: 85,662 triangle mesh

- that's a noticeable increase in lag generation.

@Siobhin Shippe@Aradia Dielli: Please ensure that in the next update, HD-layers are an optional wearable and not always on - just as Maitreya did with it's layers in 5.x

8191e05c7245dce498e3e12750812f23.png

c34795e8ef384fcf9cfdc534a8ce8e03.png

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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1 hour ago, steeljane42 said:

Your choice, of course. But given how other big head makers are... you won't be happy with them either.

Absolutely and notice I didn't say I was switching vendors either.  Some of this is a state of the market issue, there is too much of everyone jumping on the same bandwagons.  I have plenty of heads I am happy with, I am still happy with Lake v2.0 even.   I am not the kind of customer who needs to make purchases when nobody offers me what I want.  I am happy to wait, see how this BoM, not BoM runs for the longer term with the knowledge that I may stick with these heads until they stop working in a distant future.

1 hour ago, steeljane42 said:

Anyway, I don't think you're a hater, and it's okay to have own opinion no matter how different it is. I'll just say that I'm personally most happy with Lelutka heads (using them since pre-bento days). They are not perfect, far from it, but in my opinion they are miles ahead of any competitors in quality of pretty much everything, from animations to visuals to functionality and ease of use.

Thanks and I have been an extremely happy customer for many years also.  Nothing is perfect but I am not expecting perfection either.  That isn't what this is about.

Edited by Gabriele Graves
corrected word.
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This is an interesting aside. Catwa 4.5 - with all it's layers, was lower triangles than Lelutka 2.0:

908e7ebfd58d8bf5a28c9cdd26521cb3.png

That's all deformed because I don't know how to 'undeform' myself in the Black Dragon viewer...

Native BOM influenced my decision to switch brands - but the ability to have a head that was made for the ethnicity I wanted to look like was also big - and the HDPro switch for Catwa meant they were making a big push towards 'high lag'. he 2.0 to 2.5 switch Lelutka made is a push towards more lag, but a smaller one.

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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31 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Please ensure that in the next update, HD-layers are an optional wearable and not always on - just as Maitreya did with it's layers in 5.x

If you check more closely the majority of the increase is actually not from the HD layers. Head itself is ~6k triangles heavier than before, eyes are exactly the same. So the rest comes from the teeth with extra (and I'm going to assume - useless for most people) options. Those beast/vampire/etc teeth could be separate attachment like piercing is.

Still not a big change in my opinion anyway, hair I have on right now are 297k triangles alone and that's pretty "modest" by styled hair standards, I've seen some over 700k triangles. But I never cared about "optimization" anyway and my region would probably give certain users a stroke with how many extra 1024x1024 (including normals and speculars) textures there is.

Edited by steeljane42
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