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When Did it Become Acceptable to Bring Politic of Hate into SL?

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25 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

1:  Socialism has lots of definitions (which the article then declines to offer up), but clearly makes this point relevant to its definition: " but socialism, unlike capitalism, requires that the bulk of the means of production workers use to yield goods and services be under the effective control of workers themselves, "  This, of course, is simply a restatement of the very definition I've put forth that so many seem to rile against

2:  We then move on to defining socialism in contrast to capitalism (apparently because our goal is to improve on capitalism and so we need to say "this is what's bad about capitalism, socialism is better), during which we assert "In contrast to capitalism, socialism can be defined as a type of society in which, at a minimum, (i) is turned into (i*):i*) The bulk of the means of production is under social, democratic control."

i just jump in here and point out that the highlighted parts are not the same thing

the first paints socialism to be about the staff. This is not true of socialism. Is not true of communism either. The staff are only one part of the community - not the whole

the second is not true of communism. Socialism is about social, democratic control yes.  Communism is about social control - there is no democracy

when we do want to contrast the differences between the systems then we can go to the beginning and build up from there. A beginning of how modern western societies are structured (democratic capitalism, democratic socialism and communism) starts with the work of John Locke.  Mr Locke lived in the feudal society times, and he along with a number of his peers thought and wrote extensively about the rights of the subjects of the then prevailing feudal monarchy system. How might a society differ when the monarch is no longer the final arbiter in a society ?

John Locke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke

the work of Karl Marx (marxist communism) came out as a critique of John Locke's conclusions. Marx totally agreed with Locke's thoughts on the feudal monarchist system and without Locke, Marx would probably not even have come up with what he did

- a thing

i think sometimes socialism and communism can get mixed up

unless a person learns up on this kind of stuff, then why that person mixes these up is understandable from the pov of ignorance in the simplest sense. When we dunno - we dunno

sometimes tho the mixing up is wilful. A person does know the difference, but they also know that the person they are talking to is ignorant in these matters. So they deliberately mix things up to reinforce the ignorant beliefs that the other person has already

learning up can mean going to the source and taking the source's meaning of words in context

an example of this is Karl Marx. He summed up communism in a single sentence: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"

using this same approach contextually then socialism can be summed up in the sentence: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution".

capitalism too can be summed up similarly in a single sentence: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his wants"

in this context then socialism is closer to capitalism than it is to communism. Which is borne out in practice. Capitalism and socialism can and do co-exist in democratic societies today. Which in practice comes from the conclusions of Mr Locke.  That when people are free to participate in accord with their own conscience then there is a democratic society. That when people are rewarded for their contributions then there is a stable society 

capitalism and communism cannot co-exist. Neither can socialism and communism. Communism is antithetical to both capitalism and socialism

antiethical in the sense that in a purely capitalist society then everything is owned individually. In a purely communist society everything is owned by the State on behalf of the individuals - there is only one community in this society.  In a purely socialist society then everything is owned communally by the individuals in that community - there can be more than one community in the society

examples of more than one socialist community that co-exists with capitalism

i live in New Zealand. My bank is communally-owned by the account holders - not by the State. There are no capital shares in it.  My electricity line company is communally-owned by the electricity user account holders - not by the State. There are no capital shares in it. Fonterra (one of the largest dairy product processing companies in the world) is communally-owned by its farmer suppliers - not by the State. There are no capital voting shares in Fonterra. The vote (control) is vested in the communal owners - the farmer suppliers

the workers don't get an ownership say in these communal-owned organisations. They work there and get paid according to their contribution. And get a representational say in the work they do and in amount of recompense for their contributions, as workers do in any other organisation - public, private or communal owned

going a bit deeper, I along with my tribe communally own land. Every member of the tribe gets a vote (and we practice consensus not majority rules). Those of us alive today hold the land in trust for those who follow us. As did those who came before us.  We have no individual right to abandon/dispose of this trust as might suit our own personal circumstances or wants. Is not about the land per se, is about the trust. The trust that we will not dispossess our descendants, of their land

- a final thing

when a society practices democracy then when the tenets of capitalism and socialism are combined into this, then there is room for both the individual and the community to co-exist peacefully and successfully - as John Locke puts it: a liberal democracy

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I was brought up Christian, central to what I was taught was about was unconditional love for everyone...
 
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

  - 1 John 4:7-8

It never ceases to amaze me how self declared Christian's seem to skip that bit and spend their time being loudly intolerant.

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42 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:
I was brought up Christian, central to what I was taught was about was unconditional love for everyone...
 
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

  - 1 John 4:7-8

It never ceases to amaze me how self declared Christian's seem to skip that bit and spend their time being loudly intolerant.

 

It's because,like a lot of religions and beliefs..Not everyone is there for the religion or the beliefs..

A good example is social media..The amazon couldn't hold that many parrots looking for brownie points..

hehehe

 

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Oh! Are we going to get into religion today?

... cracks her knuckles and gets ready to type up a storm...

How as this thread not been closed yet?

tenor.gif.07194308e69f5f55b70a14fa82151db2.gif

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8 hours ago, Aethelwine said:
I was brought up Christian, central to what I was taught was about was unconditional love for everyone...
 
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

  - 1 John 4:7-8

It never ceases to amaze me how self declared Christian's seem to skip that bit and spend their time being loudly intolerant.

What is God's love though? God's creation as we know it so far is wildly intolerant, sexist, immoral and violent. And I'm not even talking about the humans. I don't believe that God's love is emotional, physical or spiritual. At least not in the same way as we experience those things.

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On 1/6/2020 at 2:21 PM, SeikariTheMierianShadow said:

Basically everyone has a political Opinion and asking for Politics to not be discussed in SL is about as effective as safe spaces in Collages. 

 

1. Colleges.

2. Are you even familiar with the concept as it's actually applied in academia? Not what you hear on Fox News or the mad man-baby Youtube channels. 

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18 minutes ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

mad man-baby Youtube channels

lolol I like that...will have to remember it...

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Posted (edited)

Interesting article on what those in the US are dealing with....the extremist religion taking over the courts and the white house:

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/onward-christian-fascists/

*note -- the above is regarding evangelical extremist religion....I like the good kind of religion that teaches people how to be more loving in the world...even if they have some "irrational" beliefs as part of said religion..

Edited by Luna Bliss

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11 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

Dismissing socialism because of a narrow straw man view of it, is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. It just makes the person being dismissive look daft and unreasonable to anyone outside the echo chamber of Right wing US politics.

Just had to emphasize your words here.

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2 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

Oh! Are we going to get into religion today?

... cracks her knuckles and gets ready to type up a storm...

How as this thread not been closed yet?

tenor.gif.07194308e69f5f55b70a14fa82151db2.gif

Yeah, I laughed when I saw that somehow this just morphed into religion. :)

Here's my guess as to why this thread is still open: 1) It is posted in the General Discussion portion of the Forum, in which non-SL topics are allowed.* 2) Despite some of the grrry-ness this discussion has been pretty tame. "You're a moron" "No! You're a moron!" is a fairly dull flame war. :) I mean, ffs, there's links to academic philosophy sites being bandied about!

As for religion: I hate religions of all stripes. Not the people who believe and worship (although a few of those, too), but the actual institutions. Those have caused more strife in the world than anything else, and continue to do so. There! I've just added my 2 cents for further fanning flames. :) On the other hand, if all the people that have been killed by religious agendas had not been killed, but had lived, imagine how many more people we'd have in the world today! So, yay, extermination techniques?

*And for which I am thankful because I'd rather chat/banter/debate than participate in the game-type things (even though I sometimes do).

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6 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

Here's my guess as to why this thread is still open: 1) It is posted in the General Discussion portion of the Forum, in which non-SL topics are allowed.* 2) Despite some of the grrry-ness this discussion has been pretty tame. "You're a moron" "No! You're a moron!" is a fairly dull flame war. :) I mean, ffs, there's links to academic philosophy sites being bandied about!

Yes, that's the only time I saw anything resembling flaming..the moron comment.

It's been a good thread, and even caused me to brush up on my knowledge of Socialism & Capitalism...

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A bit late...but need to clear up a few misconceptions about emergency room care and prevention of death in the US...


The fact that we have emergency room care to treat what would be an immediate life-threatening condition does not mean we don't die due to lack of health care in the US.
Sure, in the US we have emergency room care where, according to law, life-threatening conditions are required to be treated --  but one is also stuck with a bill which can be thousands of dollars unlike other 1st world countries. Even with a job and fairly good insurance you're stuck with co-pays and deductibles that are unaffordable for many - we're talking about thousands of dollars. So often people avoid a trip to the emergency room until it's too late, and this ends up causing their death.

And ongoing needed medications for cancer and diabetes are not treated at an emergency room, as is the same with many other diseases that eventually become life-threatening. Some areas have clinics which provide help -- but this is not guaranteed and depends on where you live and the funds they have available at any particular time.

A couple of accounts explaining what it's like to live without good health care:
https://www.vox.com/first-person/2017/3/14/14907348/health-insurance-uninsured-ahca-obamacare
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-03/what-it-s-like-living-without-health-insurance-in-america

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Evah Baxton said:

What is God's love though? God's creation as we know it so far is wildly intolerant, sexist, immoral and violent. And I'm not even talking about the humans. I don't believe that God's love is emotional, physical or spiritual. At least not in the same way as we experience those things.

I am reminded of the old tune:

All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom.
He made their horrid wings.
All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.
Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid,
Who made the spikey urchin?
Who made the sharks? He did!
All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.
Amen.

God's love has to be religious or spiritual in this context, and it is not so much important how God loves us, but how we love each other that is. The Golden Rule, the principle of reciprocity that we treat each other as we would ourselves is common to all religions not just Christianity.. And that is what is important... in the context of a religion it is more than just a rule for how to organise a productive society, but a way of being. It is a state of mind, something to aspire to, treating each other with respect, empathy and unconditional love. The desire and action to see your impact better others and that doing so brings its own rewards. That was always my understanding from my church anyway.

Edited by Aethelwine
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3 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

All things dull and ugly, All creatures short and squat, All things rude and nasty, The Lord God made the lot. Each little snake that poisons, Each little wasp that stings, He made their brutish venom. He made their horrid wings. All things sick and cancerous, All evil great and small, All things foul and dangerous, The Lord God made them all. Each nasty little hornet, Each beastly little squid, Who made the spikey urchin? Who made the sharks? He did! All things scabbed and ulcerous, All pox both great and small, Putrid, foul and gangrenous, The Lord God made them all. Amen.

It's easy to 'love' when times are easy, but when times are tough and one is able to love...that is a deeper kind of love.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It's easy to 'love' when times are easy, but when times are tough and one is able to love...that is a deeper kind of love.

I've always found more loving, communal, generous, and thoughtful people in the ghetto than I ever have up on 'high street' with all the rich folk. And since my life has move the path from the very bottom to near the top - that's experience talking.

It is actually 'easier' to love when times are hard - you come together and have cause. When times are easy, you hoard what's yours and try to keep others from getting a piece as well. There's a reason the ONLY people Yeshua Christ had issue with was the greedy; the capitalists of his day - the ones up there on 'high street'. Then again, Christ was a homeless illiterate bastard ghetto rat son of a migrant worker... I know where he came from; that's my hood. So he 'got it'. He learned love in the place where love is what gets you through the struggle.

If people saw Yeshua on the street today... their first reaction would be to hurry by, followed by loudly declaring that they don't have any spare change... and then... they'd call the cops.

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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14 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

discussion

This Trumper guy that you had the connection with...(until discovering he was a Trumper)....did you attempt to explain how the poor and disadvantaged will suffer greatly if the policies favored by Trump are increasingly enacted?  If so, how did he respond?

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:
13 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It's easy to 'love' when times are easy, but when times are tough and one is able to love...that is a deeper kind of love.

I've always found more loving, communal, generous, and thoughtful people in the ghetto than I ever have up on 'high street' with all the rich folk. And since my life has move the path from the very bottom to near the top - that's experience talking.

It is actually 'easier' to love when times are hard - you come together and have cause. When times are easy, you hoard what's yours and try to keep others from getting a piece as well. There's a reason the ONLY people Yeshua Christ had issue with was the greedy; the capitalists of his day - the ones up there on 'high street'. Then again, Christ was a homeless illiterate bastard ghetto rat son of a migrant worker... I know where he came from; that's my hood. So he 'got it'. He learned love in the place where love is what gets you through the struggle.

You have a point there. When I was in a Yoga group and we were collecting food for those without, I noticed it was the poorer neighborhoods that contributed more, but frequently those in the wealthier neighborhoods just shut the door in our face    :(

I think though, that if times become too hard, or if someone encounters more than they can cope with, there's a tendency to turn away from life and lose hope.  So I'm more referring to this phenomenon with my evaluation -- if you can keep loving through that, and the fact that you'll never really know why you suffer, then this is a deeper kind of live.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

You have a point there. When I was in a Yoga group and we were collecting food for those without, I noticed it was the poorer neighborhoods that contributed more, but frequently those in the wealthier neighborhoods just shut the door in our face    :(

I think though, that if times become too hard, or if someone encounters more than they can cope with, there's a tendency to turn away from life and lose hope.  So I'm more referring to this phenomenon with my evaluation.

Those who have little to begin with and know what its like to do without are often much more willing to share the little they have.. Last thanksgiving. in the 3 apartment building i live in, we all got together and compiled the most massive awesome food ladened feast any of us had ever seen. We all went to the food pantry and got a free family turkey dinner and shared our own personal dishes as well. The Greek family across the street has a lamb/whole pig roast every year and we all bring a dish and share in the food. When i lived in a different city, none of the neighbors talked to each other and they all had much much more wealth.. 

The meek shall inherit the Earth. 

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1 minute ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

we all got together

That sounds amazing!  I wish I lived there. In my neighborhood, though not a wealthy one, people are quite distant   :(

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

A bit late...but need to clear up a few misconceptions about emergency room care and prevention of death in the US...

<snipped>

If private healthcare was really so good wouldn't they all be wanting to get rid of the socialised health care for veterans, so they would enjoy the great benefits private healthcare provides?... But, I have never once heard anyone suggest that and that inclines me to think those that defend the US system of private healthcare are being fundamentally dishonest... Not necessarily intentionally, the human mind is very capable of holding incompatible contradictory ideas without challenging them, but it is dishonest all the same.

Edited by Aethelwine
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16 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

This Trumper guy that you had the connection with...(until discovering he was a Trumper)....did you attempt to explain how the poor and disadvantaged will suffer greatly if the policies favored by Trump are increasingly enacted?  If so, how did he respond?

Yup. He was surprisingly understanding, acknowledging the needs of those in safety nets. Then he turned around and spouted all of the usual fear, hate, and misinformation you'd expect. I couldn't get past his disconnect. I didn't spend days trying. At some point it was just obvious he was indoctrinated and the brain, with any self-thinking, had been parked at the door. There was a lot of cognitive dissonance happening.

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5 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

Yup. He was surprisingly understanding, acknowledging the needs of those in safety nets. Then he turned around and spouted all of the usual fear, hate, and misinformation you'd expect. I couldn't get past his disconnect. I didn't spend days trying. At some point it was just obvious he was indoctrinated and the brain, with any self-thinking, had been parked at the door. There was a lot of cognitive dissonance happening.

Political Scientists will tell you that people on the left and right actually agree on 80% of things when you 'remove rhetoric / political framing' and just preset the issues neutrally. Good odds the 20% is NOT the things we argue about all the time, but other random things we'd not think of much.

Politicians have a vested interest in keeping us all fighting... So they use framing, fear and hope both, create false victims and fake heroes - and get us fighting to keep themselves in power.

That's something even Socrates could have told you... it's that old... divide people up, point them at a target, and blame that target for the failures in society that empower you.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

If private healthcare was really so good wouldn't they all be wanting to get rid of the socialised health care for veterans, so they would enjoy the great benefits private healthcare provides?... But, I have never once heard anyone suggest that and that inclines me to think those that defend the US system of private healthcare are being fundamentally dishonest... Not necessarily intentionally, the human mind is very capable of holding incompatible contradictory ideas without challenging them, but it is dishonest all the same.

Yes, and this is what I'm trying to sort out with Seicher too....are these Trumpers who defend privatization unable to read Trumps policies, or Republican policies over the years, and see how the poor end up with less as more wealth is funneled to the top (and Democrats do this as well, though they throw a few more bones to the poor).  Are they inept, in other words -- can't read - can't realize their lapse in logic.

Or....do they see it and just not care?  Do they feel the poor deserve it?

I guess it depends on the Trumper you talk to.

Edited by Luna Bliss

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Since we're sharing...

Not really controversial - I don't know if there is a god, or gods, or any life after death, since I've never been dead. I strongly suspect that there is nothing. You die, you're dead. I've never seen any evidence of anything to indicate that there is any sort of higher power. If there is a god, entrance to heaven or whatever is based on the content of your character, not whether you believed in him or not. If a person is only good because they believe in god, then they aren't really good people. 

Sort of controversial - If god exists, he's really an a-hole. As an omnipotent being, he's really lousy about saving people, especially small children, from suffering. He sits by twiddling his omnipotent thumbs while children are burned with cigarettes, thrown into walls, raped, and murdered, along with about a billion other heinous things. God gave my mom cancer, and my brother cancer. Eff that guy. Don't give me that free will crap. Ever notice how when something good happens it's one of god's miracles, but if it's something bad, either god didn't have anything to do with it, or it's all part of His Divine Plan. That's a truly sh*tty plan, you guys, no matter what the end game is.

Super controversial - Mary was a prostitute and Jesus's papa was a Roman soldier. Joseph was just the poor schmuck who married her.

2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Or....do they see it and just not care?  Do they feel the poor deserve it?

There's your answer. As long as they aren't personally suffering, to hell with everyone else. 

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