When Did it Become Acceptable to Bring Politic of Hate into SL?

[Evah Baxton]

It's no secret. You can't conflate the desire for money and status with the desire for power. The desire to control others ... "I know what's best for them" is the essence of evil. If you haven't noticed, money and status will always ebb and flow. Power sticks around.

I'm not trying to be political. Just realize that controlling other people's lives is evil. Do it knowingly.

[Qie Niangao]

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Perhaps you can tell me what exactly the Linden policy/enforcement record is right now. You can't abuse report a Trump sign per se, as is. But if there were more than one on a sim, could you? One on every one of 10 sims in a row? What might work? Encroachment doesn't count, because it could say "We are for a blue sky" and if it encroaches they will remove it. I do wonder specifically about these Trump sign infestations what might be done within the enforcement practices of LL.

Sorry, I really have no idea what's allowed (other than the anti-adfarm "network advertising" rules for microparcels) nor what will get them to act on stuff that's not allowed. For that matter, I don't know what's the deal with adfarms anymore either. I've been reporting an obvious, blatant adfarm violation on multiple counts, multiple times for over a year, even trying an alt account at one point. Nothing. I mean, it's not even remotely a judgment call : 

• it's not grounded to the terrain
• it extends more than 8m above ground level
• it contains rotating content
• parts aren't phantom

I really don't think they put their best and brightest on Governance, which I suppose I can understand. But man this is frustrating.

[Alwin Alcott]

50 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I really don't think they put their best and brightest on Governance, which I suppose I can understand. But man this is frustrating.

the good old times   when reporting this kind of things, you could nearly wait a minute and a Linden would land next you to solve it.to
During the years it really got different, and íf something gets cleared now it can be easely a week or a zillion reports later.
Even on the Belli regions that sinking of active support is visible already, and to make it worse, the behaviour of residents doesn't really help it.

The moles and other builders run their butt off, but the AR's concerning inworld mess shouln't be handled by people who alreay have such huge task.
A reasonable small dedicated "maintenance" team would already have a great impact to prevent this.
 

[BelindaN]

12 hours ago, Eva Knoller said:

In my experience people put inflammatory things in their profile specifically to to get a rise out of people. Best to completely ignore them, or you are giving them exactly what they want...attention. I don’t have enough in-world time to waste it on idiots.

^^this. I look at profiles and I make judgements. I will always be polite in IMs, that's how I am, but If I don't like what I see, it will never go beyond a chat.

[Resi Pfeffer]

9 hours ago, Orwar said:

   Or is the lack of complacency why we suffer such grief from politics to begin with? Democracy is still, relatively speaking, in its infancy; and in many places it has already failed. Is it the ultimate solution to how to govern society, or is it an immeasurable source of conflict that, frankly, the majority of us would be better off without?

Democracy is a nice and shiny Utopia, nothing more.
Mankind always did and still consists of some wolves and a lot of sheeps. I dont see, why anything was changing or will change about that.

[Arduenn Schwartzman]

I think discussing politics at the dinner table or anywhere is fine. Nothing wrong with a good debate about social security and trickle-down economics. You know, with reasoning, historical references and, above all, science.

Unfortunately, people confuse actual politics with parroting snappy soundbytes from propaganda outlets, and easy campaign slogans with no substance at all a lot. And some also confuse actual debating with trolling, bullying and gaslighting.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Arduenn Schwartzman

[Jackson Redstar]

11 minutes ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

I think discussing politics at the dinner table or anywhere is fine. Nothing wrong with a good debate about social security and trickle-down economics. You know, with reasoning, historical references and, above all, science.

Unfortunately, people confuse actual politics with parotting snappy soundbytes from propaganda outlets, and easy campaign slogans with no substance at all a lot. And some also confuse actual debating with trolling, bullying and gaslighting.

discussion of politics USED to be about policy positions. Now it is just about your guy sucks and everyone who voted for that person is a moron, racist, bigot, or whatever. That was how a multi-party system was meant to work - people had different positions on policy, they hash it out and try to reach a compromise that somewhat makes everyone happy

[Tolya Ugajin]

8 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

The Obama administration built them, yes. Zero tolerance family separation (and children dying) is all Trump. As for it being a 2018 debate, I’m terribly sorry your attention span is so short when there are still children living (and dying) in those cages.

Except, as usual, you're misinformed.  People have been dying in ICE custody, have been dying in jail, and dying in general, since, well, since people came onto the planet.  People die, and as it turns out, if you take 800,000 people and watch them for any length of time, some will die while you wathc.

The death rate of those in ICE custody rose from 1.4 per 100,000 in custody in 2014 (Obama) to 2.3 in 2015 (Obama) to 2.8 in 2016 (Obama) to 3.7 in 2017 (both Obama and Trump, since these are fiscal years and FY 2017 began October 1, 2016) and then FELL to 2.3 in FY 2018 (Trump).   As far as I can tell, info has not been released for FY 2019.  So, yeah, you don't know what you're talking about and instead you've just swallowed the propaganda you're being fed.  But don't feel bad, for everyone taking MSNBC's lies for truth, there are 2 or 3 doing the same with Fox.

By way of comparison, the death rate in US jails is 264 per 100,000 - in other words, people in ICE custody die at 1/100th the rate of people in jail.  Wow, kinda mind blowing, huh?  And here AOC has been telling you that ICE is worse than jail.

Now, I realize you won't care that I've given you actual data, and you'll wrap yourself in your comfortable self-righteous ignorance and continue to parrot "Cheetoh man bad" mantras, but the truth is that death rates went up late in Obama's years because we began to get flooded with illegal immigration on an unprecedented scale at our Southern border, overwhelming our resources, and it didn't start going down until the government, slow as always to respond, got the proper resources there.

There, I made it 7 days on my resolution not to argue about Trump. Coffee, anyone?

[Drake1 Nightfire]

12 hours ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

Ditto here. And I have run into racism in world. Including some that donned black avis and Afros and said I was too sensitive when I made a comment to them in a PM. Growing up I have dealt with a lot of racism --- especially since being in an interracial marriage forever.

Racism isn't restricted to any single skin color or race in SL.I was wandering a mall that was attached to an adult area and had several maxed out black males tell me i was in the wrong place and better leave before i got hurt. I admit, i laughed my butt off at that as you cant actually hurt someone in SL. but i did leave as i didnt need any toxicity. I also left a few IMs to the store owners telling them i was kicked out for being white and they lost any business i may have given them. 

11 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

They cleaned up the mess on my.secondlife? I post there on occasions but never, ever look in the "trending" portion because of all of the filth that was posted. That and the depressingly bad porn. I mean, if you're going to break the rules and post porn, at least give us some good porn, amirite?

Thank you for the blog link. Not only was it good to read the LL blurb, but the whole blog article was excellent.

Ahahahaha. I used to live in the Bay Area, and I can soooooo see this! ♥

As to the rest of that comment/post, I'm glad you're understanding that it isn't a color but an attitude. I can't imagine your past experiences and I won't insult you by saying otherwise. 

Where are the rules for my.secondlife? AFAIK there has always been pron on there, most of it bad.. I mean, how hard is it really to match your skin to your bits? Also, does anyone know a way to get rid of that "You have 3 snapshots being processed." message? 

 

@OP You really dropped premium over what someone had in their profile? Seriously? You want us to believe it was something that innocuous? Words typed on a profile hurt you that much? Riiiiight... 

[Tolya Ugajin]

10 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The "real" problem is that we continue to think in terms of "sides" -- crude binaries predicated on "power" rather than human values.

I don't have all the answers, or maybe any of them. I'm still looking, asking questions, accepting critique. I have ideas, things I believe are good. But belief isn't knowledge.

But I damned well know evil when I see it -- and I don't care if that evil is being perpetrated by the "reds" or the "blues."

If more people focused on the basic human values that we actually mostly share, we'd all be a great deal better off.

You may wish to be careful using the label "evil" and assuming everyone shares the same "basic human values".  To most Trump supporters, a far greater "evil" than anything to happen in terms of immigration is 300,000+ abortions performed at Planned Parenthood last year.  Where the blues see "reproductive rights", the reds see "murdering children". 

I don't wish to debate abortion - just making the point that the rhetoric of "evil" needs to be dialed back.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

18 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

You may wish to be careful using the label "evil" and assuming everyone shares the same "basic human values".  To most Trump supporters, a far greater "evil" than anything to happen in terms of immigration is 300,000+ abortions performed at Planned Parenthood last year.  Where the blues see "reproductive rights", the reds see "murdering children". 

I don't wish to debate abortion - just making the point that the rhetoric of "evil" needs to be dialed back.

Interesting bit of info related to that, there were over 862,000 abortions reported in the US last year, Planned Parenthood did 345,672. Which means more than half of them were done by doctors outside of Planned Parenthood. You dont see Trumpers standing outside major hospitals protesting though...  

Evil means different things to different people. My MIL thinks all Non-Christians are evil and need to be saved. My 17 year old thinks Mid-terms are the most evil thing in existence. My 15 year old thinks a 10PM bedtime is. Me, I think Kidney stones rank right up near the top.. 

[Syo Emerald]

1 minute ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Me, I think Kidney stones rank right up near the top.. 

I think Kidney stones are something the entire world could agree on.

[Tolya Ugajin]

1 hour ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Interesting bit of info related to that, there were over 862,000 abortions reported in the US last year, Planned Parenthood did 345,672. Which means more than half of them were done by doctors outside of Planned Parenthood. You dont see Trumpers standing outside major hospitals protesting though...  

Evil means different things to different people. My MIL thinks all Non-Christians are evil and need to be saved. My 17 year old thinks Mid-terms are the most evil thing in existence. My 15 year old thinks a 10PM bedtime is. Me, I think Kidney stones rank right up near the top.. 

Neh I've passed enough stones I barely notice any more.

You're right, which is why labeling ones opponents "evil" is dangerous.  Once a debate goes from facts and conclusions to moral judgements and emotion, bad things happen.

[Garnet Psaltery]

IBTL and here's my view from the UK.

 

 

[Beth Macbain]

11 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Once a debate goes from facts and conclusions to moral judgements and emotion, bad things happen.

Facts can't be debated. They are what they are. Water (in its liquid state) is wet. 

Good things happen when people debate morals and ethics. It's necessary and imperative, lest people who believe it's morally acceptable to exterminate an entire race of people actually take the steps to do that very thing. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

You may wish to be careful using the label "evil" and assuming everyone shares the same "basic human values".  To most Trump supporters, a far greater "evil" than anything to happen in terms of immigration is 300,000+ abortions performed at Planned Parenthood last year.  Where the blues see "reproductive rights", the reds see "murdering children". 

I don't wish to debate abortion - just making the point that the rhetoric of "evil" needs to be dialed back.

 

26 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

You're right, which is why labeling ones opponents "evil" is dangerous.

This is precisely the point I was trying to make, actually.

I spoke of basic or fundamental human values; the examples you are using here are of positions, derived from a particular interpretation of those values.

When one argues from a particular ideological identity position -- feminist, evangelical, Democrat, Conservative, etc. -- one is assuming positions that have been pre-established. While there will, hopefully, always be individual variants in belief (hopefully because it's never good to uncritically accept any credo), as a "feminist" I already know what I'm supposed to think about reproductive rights. And indeed, that is how I think: I am passionate about this. But there is no room for actual discussion and negotiation when one begins from hard and fast positions.

Suppose that we instead put aside our positions and our ideological allegiances, and begin from really fundamental principles that we do agree on. Life is better than death. Equity and equality are better than inequality. Freedom is better than tyranny. Everyone deserves access to the necessities of life. And so forth.

The devil, of course, is in the details, but any negotiator knows that you start from common ground, and work your way outward from that. Someone who believes that life begins at conception (or that contraception is immoral) is not likely going to be able to sway me from views on reproductive choice -- but if we begin from fundamentals that we agree on, they, and I, are a lot less likely to simply demonize and dismiss the views of others.

Evil, mostly, isn't "people." It's the actions that people take in pursuit of things that they believe are good. So, let's start by examining those fundamentals: what is good?

Edited January 7, 2020 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Luna Bliss]

4 hours ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

14 hours ago, Orwar said:

   Or is the lack of complacency why we suffer such grief from politics to begin with? Democracy is still, relatively speaking, in its infancy; and in many places it has already failed. Is it the ultimate solution to how to govern society, or is it an immeasurable source of conflict that, frankly, the majority of us would be better off without?

Democracy is a nice and shiny Utopia, nothing more.
Mankind always did and still consists of some wolves and a lot of sheeps. I dont see, why anything was changing or will change about that.

"Darwin's theory of natural selection is a profoundly powerful explanation of how evolution works; its undoubted success strongly suggests an inherently antagonistic relationship between unrelated individuals. Yet cooperation is prevalent, seems beneficial, and even seems to be essential to human society. Explaining this seeming contradiction, and accommodating cooperation, and even altruism, within Darwinian theory is a central issue in the theory of cooperation."

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

You're right, which is why labeling ones opponents "evil" is dangerous.

I don't see you, or Trump supporters, as evil -- I see all of you focusing on 'might makes right' without incorporating enough cooperation in your theories and actions.  Both need to be present, and when one is too much in the forefront then chaos ensues in an attempt to bring about balance.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Tolya Ugajin]

6 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Facts can't be debated. They are what they are. Water (in its liquid state) is wet. 

Good things happen when people debate morals and ethics. It's necessary and imperative, lest people who believe it's morally acceptable to exterminate an entire race of people actually take the steps to do that very thing. 

Incorrect.  Facts can certainly be debated - the sourcing, the applicability, the accuracy, all are subject to debate.  For instance, water is "wetter" if certain chemicals are added (such as soap).  More importantly, the conclusions drawn from the facts (the part you left out) should be the most important part of the debate.

Similarly, you converted "moral judgements and emotion" to "debating morality and ethics" and that's not at all an appropriate revision of my words.  By all means, debate morality to your heart's content, but once you start calling the other guy "evil" the debate is over.  You've left logical reasoning behind and retreated into name calling and claims of moral superiority.

[Beth Macbain]

3 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

For instance, water is "wetter" if certain chemicals are added (such as soap).

That doesn't change the fact that water is wet.

I didn't revise your words - I used my own. And when it comes to Trump and his sycophants, yes, I am morally superior. 

Debate over. 

[Luna Bliss]

8 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

By all means, debate morality to your heart's content, but once you start calling the other guy "evil" the debate is over.  You've left logical reasoning behind and retreated into name calling and claims of moral superiority.

I know it's supposedly evil to Godwin a thread, but is there a point at which we use the term "evil' to describe someone who is excessively focused on self and individualism without any concern for others and  the cooperation needed for a healthy society?  Like, for example, Hitler?

Edited January 7, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Seicher Rae]

Oooooh. I told myself to leave this thread, hence the adorable kitty leaving through the couch gif. (I've seen cats do that.) But...

I posted earlier in this thread about my recent encounter with checks-all-the-boxes-zomg-he's-a-Trumper? guy. He didn't just say "I voted for Trump" and then I didn't just then storm out in a harumphing hissy fit. As others have mentioned, there used to be a time when we could debate policy and general concepts. There could be civil discourse. It wasn't that long ago. These are no longer those times.

I've never seen such a time when there was such a theoretical fluidity over what is a fact. Moynihan said it best with, "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." When faced with someone who doesn't get that, there's no room for discussion. It also is one explanation for why they can support a person who says/tweets/does one thing, in public and on the record, one day and then turns around and denies it the next.

And the other reason I left, and the other thing he didn't get, was what y'all are discussing: the notion of evil. My absolute revulsion toward Trump has very little to do with politics but goes to my core values. Somebody could tell me they voted for Bush and I'd maybe roll my eyes and think stupid, but I wouldn't cut them out of my life over it.  When someone is a racist, xenophobic, misogynistic bully and encourages others to do the same, that pushes towards evil. Add in being a malignant narcissistic (ok, I don't know that, but we all know that) liar, with major fascist (I mean that literally) tendencies? That's really not politics, that's the person. I just do not understand how any rational, feeling person can support that. And you can't convince me that the war he's now marching us toward is due to anything other than flagging polls and an upcoming election, and sending brave people to die for that is just...evil.

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Seicher Rae
If I'm getting quoted, I should really spell Moynihan correctly.

[Beth Macbain]

4 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

<really awesome stuff>

Thank you for being able to put into words exactly what I've been trying to say. You completely nailed it. 

[Luna Bliss]

11 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

When someone is a racist, xenophobic, misogynistic bully and encourages others to do the same, that pushes towards evil. Add in being a malignant narcissistic (ok, I don't know that, but we all know that) liar, with major fascist (I mean that literally) tendencies? That's really not politics, that's the person. I just do not understand how any rational, feeling person can support that. And you can't convince me that the war he's now marching us toward is due to anything other than flagging polls and an upcoming election, and sending brave people to die for that is just...evil.

Yes, as you point out, not everyone just wants to claim they are on the winning side when they proclaim "bad orange man, bad orange man".  The reality is that they look at his narcissism, his policies, and the effect he is having on the world and genuinely do believe that indeed that orange man is bad!

To view everything as a competition, as a 'taking of sides' simply for being on a winning side, only shows the excessively competitive nature of that other side. In other words, they are projecting.

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Luna Bliss

[Luna Bliss]

2 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Interesting bit of info related to that, there were over 862,000 abortions reported in the US last year, Planned Parenthood did 345,672. Which means more than half of them were done by doctors outside of Planned Parenthood. You dont see Trumpers standing outside major hospitals protesting though...

So true, and why do you think this is the case?