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Pebbles Bagley

When Did it Become Acceptable to Bring Politic of Hate into SL?

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1 hour ago, LexxiXhan said:

Hi, I'm Lexxi and my pronouns are they/them or she/her, in case anyone needs to know.

Have we got past the 1980s yet?

You can't always know though...not when someone is beginning for instance or if you've known them for a long, long time as Cher mentioned in an article she still refers to Chaz as she and her.  Now that's it's been some decades I'm sure Cher has gotten used to Chaz being himself, Chaz.   Chaz went through full transition.  At the time Cher said that about her son - still referring to him as her or she, Chaz had not transitioned yet.  

Plus, there are women dressed as men - the name was once referred to as a "*****", who have no intention of having a sex change and are still referred to as she/her even though they may dress and present themselves as a man they are still a woman.  Just giving one example.

 

Edited by FairreLilette

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5 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

You can't always know though

"do you need me to use particular pronouns?"

Or

"Sorry, I didn't realise. I'll try to remember."

Etc.

Pretty easy.

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31 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:

"do you need me to use particular pronouns?"

Or

"Sorry, I didn't realise. I'll try to remember."

Etc.

Pretty easy.

Well, the example I'm using...Cher is the Mom.  Yeah, she forgot at times.  

However, your answer doesn't take into account those who may, for example, dress like a man but are still a woman with no desire to have a sex change.  How am I supposed to know who wants to be referred to as not a she but a him by the way they dress if you don't tell me?   I dress like a man in gym clothes and boots a lot with no make-up but I don't want to be referred to as a man.  

If someone isn't told, I do not see how that is their fault.  It's like me not knowing that person I just met is someone's son unless they tell me.  

 

Edited by FairreLilette

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3 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Well, the example I'm using...Cher is the Mom.  Yeah, she forgot at times.

Which is fine.

3 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

How am I supposed to know who wants to be referred to as not a she but a him by the way they dress?

Ask.

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3 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

How am I supposed to know who wants to be referred to as not a she but a him by the way they dress?

You don't "know" by how they dress.

Actually, you can't know even by virtue of the particular set of genitalia that they sport: there are many people who are fully biologically male or female who are, nonetheless, non-binary, gender neutral, etc. Gender identity need not have anything to do at all with external appearance: at best, things like clothes and biology are sometimes outwards articulations.

People will tell you if you have unintentionally misgendered them, generally very politely. At that point, one does one's best, or should, to acknowledge those preferences. And yes, sometimes you'll forget. I do. In which case, you apologize and try again.

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I don't understand why we are having this conversation in the first place.  The Community Participation Guidelines are clear: 

 

Quote

Interpersonal Disputes or Personal Negative Commentary: If you have a personal disagreement, do not post about it on the Second Life community pages. Residents who have personal differences have other channels of communication available to them — private messaging in the forums, IM within Second Life, or chatting within Second Life.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Desiree Moonwinder said:

I don't understand why we are having this conversation in the first place.

What don't you understand, Desiree? We aren't, so far as I can see, engaged in interpersonal disputes here.

We are having a discussion about gender and identity, and how these are addressed.

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On 1/6/2020 at 1:58 PM, Samie Bagley said:

In these last two days, I had encounters with Trump supporters who filled their profiles with hateful messages. Specifically, profile pictures showing gun violence, groups promoting lies that were discredit by US and UK intelligence, and groups promoting violence toward others. All were reported to LL.

As a result of these encounter and awareness of LL's permissible attitude toward the introduction of politics of hate in SL, I am no longer a premium member. I refuse to financially support an organization that allows the spewing of hate as evidenced by my encounters with MAGATS.

I am deeply disappointed at LL's lack of action in the insertion of politics into SL, and even more disappointed with the LL's inaction toward the infusion of politics of hate in SL.  I am wondering of anyone else has had similar experiences and how people have handled/reacted/felt in these situations. 

 

Best regards,

 

-Pebbles

 

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What don't you understand, Desiree? We aren't, so far as I can see, engaged in interpersonal disputes here.

We are having a discussion about gender and identity, and how these are addressed.

 

The thread is about an inworld event that the OP doesn't like, and the procedure is to file an AR.  All the rest is thread drift. 

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5 minutes ago, Desiree Moonwinder said:

 

The thread is about an inworld event that the OP doesn't like, and the procedure is to file an AR.  All the rest is thread drift. 

The thread title references "the politic of hate", and that is exactly what we have been defining all throughout this thread...

* what exactly is a politic of hate -- hate that is part of any political view, be it on the right/left/somewhere in between...

Edited by Luna Bliss
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1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said:

The thread title references "the politic of hate", and that is exactly what we have been defining all throughout this thread...

The thread title is:

Quote

When Did it Become Acceptable to Bring Politic of Hate into SL?

 

The question itself is defamatory to SL.  Such is not not acceptable, but the title suggests otherwise.  

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2 minutes ago, Desiree Moonwinder said:

The question itself is defamatory to SL.  Such is not not acceptable, but the title suggests otherwise.  

Frequently people accuse LL of wrongdoing....then thread participants either agree or disagree...or define terms better to sort out issues.  This has always been allowed, and something we can commend LL for.

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13 minutes ago, Desiree Moonwinder said:

 

 

The thread is about an inworld event that the OP doesn't like, and the procedure is to file an AR.  All the rest is thread drift. 

The thread is doing exactly what nearly every thread created here does: branching off into a discussion of both some of the larger implications of the OP, and some of the side issues it raises. If the discussion in every thread here was constrained to the precise subject raised by the OP, few of them would get beyond 2 or 3 posts.

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21 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:

 

Ask.

Well, there has never been anyone I've met where I needed to, most likely because of a casual introduction and never saw the person again.  However, if a friend of mine were to introduce me...I'd hope they'd say something like "this is __________" (name here), her and I or him and I have been friends since...(fill in the blank)...for example. 

However, I was just bringing up the "lazy introduction" aspect of how we often forget it is important to introduce a person so the other one knows a little more rather than just giving a name.  Just introducing someone with a name is a lazy introduction and is like expecting mind reading on the other person's part...such as I gave an example of not knowing the person was her son because she introduced him with just a name rather than "This is my son, __________(name here).   

 

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2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I was just bringing up the "lazy introduction" aspect of how we often forget it is important to introduce a person so the other one knows a little more rather than just giving a name.

I get that. The most helpful way to change that is to normalise better introductions by setting an example.

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7 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

However, I was just bringing up the "lazy introduction" aspect of how we often forget it is important to introduce a person so the other one knows a little more rather than just giving a name.  Just introducing someone with a name is a lazy introduction and is like expecting mind reading on the other person's part...such as I gave an example of not knowing the person was her son because she introduced him with just a name rather than "This is my son, __________(name here).   

Perhaps the one introducing their trans child or friend is protecting that child or friend.  If I went someplace with my trans friend I wouldn't assume every social situation is one where they choose to be 'out', and it could be quite disturbing or even harmful to 'out' them in many situations.  

Edited by Luna Bliss
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LL or SL haven't and shouldn't police people's freedom of opinion and expression as long as they don't break the law or incite violence. Even if you disagree with some people's opinions it's better to just ignore them or agree to disagree than set a or another precedence for thought policing, because the very ugly consequences go both ways

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29 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The thread is doing exactly what nearly every thread created here does:

 

The thread wants what the thread wants. 

Even in "normal" conversation topics tend to dirft from one subject to another. That's just how humans work.

 

Just using the quote as a springboard. ^_^

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11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I wouldn't assume every social situation is one where they choose to be 'out', and it could be quite disturbing or even harmful to 'out' them in many situations.

This!

I have a gradually expanding circle of people that I'm out to, for safety reasons. Early on however, a couple of people outed me without thinking to people I definitely wouldn't want to know any personal information about me and I was lucky that the fallout was fairly minor.

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The majority, the so-called 'normal' person in society, will all too often be disturbed no matter how a LGBTQ person presents themselves.
If the LGBTQ person is too obvious they are condemned by the majority for "throwing it in our face".
If the LGBTQ person tries to hide for safety or privacy they are condemned for not making it easy enough for the majority to respond appropriately, or in some cases the LGBTQ person is even accused of deceit!
They can't win.

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40 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Perhaps the one introducing their trans child or friend is protecting that child or friend.  If I went someplace with my trans friend I wouldn't assume every social situation is one where they choose to be 'out', and it could be quite disturbing or even harmful to 'out' them in many situations.  

Yes, that is a possible situation although Los Angeles is a very acceptable place it is still not a perfect place.  No place is.  

And I do understand that...the person may not be "out" yet for many reasons.  One of the reasons could even be that they haven't talked to their parents and family yet...although once the person is out I do very much appreciate a non-lazy introduction such as this is ___________ (fill in name), her and I or him and I have been friends since (fill in blank)....for example.  

I've gotten lazy introductions for other reasons only to find out that was a neighbor's son five months later.  Sometimes, we are just not mindful as a society when making an introduction but there can be reasons too for what might 'seem' like a lazy introduction but really isn't as you have suggested, Luna.  

It's just a pattern I've noticed since living in an apartment complex for the first time.  I meet a lot of people and mostly it's not a very informative introduction.  

 

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I don't understand people who come into a thread just to say they don't like the conversation in the thread. Ummm... so... don't read it? Is my usual thought.

I have a couple of guilty-pleasure tv shows, and I casually follow them on Facebook. It never ceases to amaze me how many people come into the comments just to say, "I don't like the show. I don't watch it." Again, I think, Why are you posting here, then?

I think it is great how this thread has woven in and out. It is like group monkey mind (a meditation term). If it gets boring (and it did in places) I stop reading (which I did in places). Concept.

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1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

It's just a pattern I've noticed since living in an apartment complex for the first time.  I meet a lot of people and mostly it's not a very informative introduction.  

I can understand how you would desire information revealed during an introduction that could help form a better connection with a new person.
How to navigate combining private vs public interaction is a social skill that some are not so adept at, and we all have different preferences too.
I always err on the side of caution, assuming that much information received in private is not meant to be broadcast in public during an introduction, or in public. At least nothing beyond trivial info such as "ohh, you know the two of you went to the same school", or "well you are both avid kombucha drinkers'.
You would probably be disappointed in me as an 'introducer'   :(

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23 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I can understand how you would desire information revealed during an introduction that could help form a better connection with a new person.
How to navigate combining private vs public interaction is a social skill that some are not so adept at, and we all have different preferences too.
I always err on the side of caution, assuming that much information received in private is not meant to be broadcast in public during an introduction, or in public. At least nothing beyond trivial info such as "ohh, you know the two of you went to the same school", or "well you are both avid kombucha drinkers'.
You would probably be disappointed in me as an 'introducer'   :(

I think you're the norm, Luna, and for good reason. It really isn't polite to go into dramatic details about someone else, as you've said. Err on the side of caution. The other is frankly pragmatic, who is going to appreciate a five minute dissertation? If more needs to be learned then more will be divulged when people actually...gasp!...talk. Expecting long, drawn out details in an introduction is unrealistic and puts the burden on the person being introduced. If one has a burning desire/need to know xyz, then politely ask. There's a few of us that will politely tell you to mind your own business, too.

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On 1/6/2020 at 1:58 PM, Samie Bagley said:

In these last two days, I had encounters with Trump supporters who filled their profiles with hateful messages. Specifically, profile pictures showing gun violence, groups promoting lies that were discredit by US and UK intelligence, and groups promoting violence toward others. All were reported to LL.

As a result of these encounter and awareness of LL's permissible attitude toward the introduction of politics of hate in SL, I am no longer a premium member. I refuse to financially support an organization that allows the spewing of hate as evidenced by my encounters with MAGATS.

I am deeply disappointed at LL's lack of action in the insertion of politics into SL, and even more disappointed with the LL's inaction toward the infusion of politics of hate in SL.  I am wondering of anyone else has had similar experiences and how people have handled/reacted/felt in these situations. 

 

Best regards,

 

-Pebbles

 

2 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

I don't understand people who come into a thread just to say they don't like the conversation in the thread. Ummm... so... don't read it? Is my usual thought.

I have a couple of guilty-pleasure tv shows, and I casually follow them on Facebook. It never ceases to amaze me how many people come into the comments just to say, "I don't like the show. I don't watch it." Again, I think, Why are you posting here, then?

I think it is great how this thread has woven in and out. It is like group monkey mind (a meditation term). If it gets boring (and it did in places) I stop reading (which I did in places). Concept.

I think that is an excellent suggestion.  If you see a profile inworld that you don't like, desist from reading it.  If you think the profile violates the TOS, AR it.  

The least productive thing to do would be to enter the forums and post defamatory terms like the one in red above.  It is unlikely that SL will ban a person just because they are politically in favor of an elected official.   

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"It has been a grand adventure to be so hated by those who I hold in such contempt."

Sir Roger

For Tolya 😀

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