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Mesh on Mesh Bounce


Prokofy Neva
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So I have finally caught up with this tape of an interview with the Lindens in which Oz Linden actually answers a question I sent into Saffia, who runs the show.

Basically, I wanted to know why mesh placed on mesh bounces, and goes back to inventory but not lost and found, so you to relog to get it again if it is a single copy (like a gatcha). HUGE annoyance.

And furthermore, since I figured that problem would be too hard to fix or not a priority, I wondered if the Lindens could just change the error message along with the bouncing which is "the owner of this land does not allow..."

And the reason is simple: All day, every day, tenants contact me bewildered and frustrated by this message. Why is the owner of the land not letting them do a thing they paid for?! They joined the group as to become in a sense co-owners!

This is why I put out prim cutting boards in every community and warn people that mesh is a batch, and you need to rez mesh on to a prim, then in edit mode, put it in place. This can be too frustrating for some people and they refund -- only to find the same problem no doubt in their next rental. Many mesh houses and skyboxes have this problem of mesh bounce, some worse than others -- it has to do with the physics and the way the mesh is uploaded, I'm told. Interestingly, the Moles' mesh in the campers does NOT suffer from bounce problem, so I wish they could capture this, put it in a jar, and export it to all creators so this stops, but meanwhile, the message...

Watching this interview was helpful, as I was reminded what an utterly different -- and wildly wacky -- world the Lindens, creators of this world, live in, themselves. I suppose it's something like the difference between bringing the circus to town and working in it, and going to the circus and watching it.

It is entirely unlike my Second Life -- they put the stress on the first word in the phrase, and I (and Saffia and so many others) put the stress on the second word -- SECOND Life versus Second LIFE and all that entails -- and that's only the beginning of all the weirdness.

So at about 16:17 on this YouTube, Oz says that the reason they can't change this message is because in fact, the prim bouncing is, in fact, on another person's land.

And he explains this by saying that the user is high up in the air, building, or decorating, as people so often are, and there is a little line that comes from them down to the object they are placing -- he gives the example of a 2000 meter high skybox and implies that the user is trying to place something on the ground from that height -- or that the line goes from the avatar in a skybox down to that ground regardless of where the placement is, and depending on the angle, it's actually on someone else's property.

This is so fantastically strange that I don't even know how to unpack it, because it simply isn't true.

The overwhelming majority of use cases of this phenomenon happen on your own land, where you as the owner or your tenants as group members and thus "like" owners, are placing one mesh item on another on the ground, within a radius of one meter, not in the air, or if in the air in a skybox, at least attempting to place an item right next to you.

Obviously Oz or April aren't rental agents and not decorating house after house so they don't experience this. They don't have customers (or shouldn't because anyone needing customer service shouldn't contact them, but the helpers on the web site). They may build up in the air, or listen to the stories of Moles who build up in the air. But there's a big difference between BUILDING when often you are hovering over the build below you, and DECORATING when you are right there, in the room, with that lamp and table. This should be obvious. That I have to explain it at length means it isn't at all, and that Oz imagines a world in which people only build from hover heights up in the air or even way up in the sky, and can't conceive of a world in which I am in a room with a lamp and a table -- bouncing, bouncing, bouncing, forcing a re-log, to everyone's annoyance.

Now. I can conceive that if I were in a skybox doing this -- and I often am, that's what people want to rent -- and those lines he is talking about jut out from my avatar and go at an angle all the way to the ground, and it might just be that if I am on the Mainland especially, that line of sight could go on to another person's property such as to cause "the owner of this land does not allow..."

But that's not the case. I'm in the middle of a sim, which I own all the parcels on.  Often surrounded by other sims which I own entirely. The line of sight or trajectory or whatever it is couldn't possibly be extending out to someone else's land; it's on mine. That's if we're talking skybox.

But on the ground -- THE GROUND! -- I am on my own land. I am in front of a table, trying to put a lamp on it. There is no line of sight or trajectory or anything that could possibly be extending to someone else's land or Linden land. YET IT IS BOUNCING.

And this happens on islands and homesteads as well as mainland.

It's because the mesh is bouncing. There is some function of the mesh itself -- perhaps if made poorly or with too many vertices or whatever -- that makes it bounce. A few very skilled creators do not cause you to suffer from this problem. You easily place their mesh on their mesh, or their mesh on another person's mesh without bounce. But most mesh does bounce. As I said, somehow the floors in the mobile homes in Bellisseria do not bounce, so that should be examined.

When I listen to these Linden interviews, I really am at a loss. Their experience is so outside of mine (and many other people's) that I just don't know what to say, how to get them to stop the pain in every day use, although they do seem willing to stop pain.

All they need to do is not overthink it, not go trawling for exotic use cases that only they imagine, but just look at ordinary life and change the message to simply "Unable to place object, try moving closer" and leave it at that. After all, they have that message when you are in one sim, trying to sit on a thing in another sim. It wills say you can't do that because you aren't in the same sim. Very clear and simple. By the same token, you could simply say "can't place" and "try moving closer" to imply that MIGHT work (if their line of sight thing is really the common use case they imagine). It's not perfect, because it isn't quite true -- mesh bounces not because of the line of sight but because of the inherent nature of mesh, and people's skills with it, which they don't seem to want to admit.

 

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5 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

This is so fantastically strange that I don't even know how to unpack it, because it simply isn't true.

The overwhelming majority of use cases of this phenomenon happen on your own land, where you as the owner or your tenants as group members and thus "like" owners, are placing one mesh item on another on the ground, within a radius of one meter, not in the air, or if in the air in a skybox, at least attempting to place an item right next to you.

 

Yes!  I didn't finish reading as you were typing FOREVER (even more than me) :D.   It is all about physics.  There are issues in the Traditional Belli houses but I think they have mostly been taken care of in the Victorians (I don't have one but friends had no issues).  I rent an old (lovely) build that I cannot rez in without making a prim floor (invisible).  

 

All these issues were understandable when mesh was new and noone understood how it worked in SL but I think we are in YEAR SIX now (or so) and there is no excuse to have a poorly made house except for laziness.   I boggles my mind that people don' TEST THEIR BUILDS.    

 

I suggest  --- if you havent' already done this -- that putting an invisible floor (I think you need to use the transparent slider rather than the alpha texture but haven't tested that in awhile) on the floors of any of YOUR buildings so that it won't be an issue. Would save a lot of frustration for everyone.   

 

 

Edited by Chic Aeon
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You are describing this pair of, as far as I can tell, still open bugs.  These have been plaguing me for years.

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-8026 Simulator incorrectly reports that build is disabled when rezzing on a parcel that allows anybody to build

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-2716 No-copy item seems to disappear from agent inventory when rez fails

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26 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

 

Yes!  I didn't finish reading as you were typing FOREVER (even more than me) :D.   It is all about physics.  There are issues in the Traditional Belli houses but I think they have mostly been taken care of in the Victorians (I don't have one but friends had no issues).  I rent an old (lovely) Apple Fall build that I cannot rez in without making a prim floor (invisible).  

 

All these issues were understandable when mesh was new and noone understood how it worked in SL but I think we are in YEAR SIX now (or so) and there is no excuse to have a poorly made house except for laziness.   I boggles my mind that people don' TEST THEIR BUILDS.    

 

I suggest  --- if you havent' already done this -- that putting an invisible floor (I think you need to use the transparent slider rather than the alpha texture but haven't tested that in awhile) on the floors of any of YOUR buildings so that it won't be an issue. Would save a lot of frustration for everyone.   

 

 

No, Chic. That DOES NOT WORK. Believe me, I've heard this many times, tried it many times, even in my office, not to mention rental homes.

It does not work to put an invisible prim over the prim that has this problem. This problem keeps shining through, God knows why. Even when you have the luxury to make it thicker (which you don't always if you don't want to upset everything in a house or community with tenants with the floor elevating and making them walk above an invisible floor, as bad as camera rocking.

Nor does it work to put things on "no shape" -- you just sink through then as often that makes it on "phantom" or "like" phantom.

The only way to fix this is for the maker to make this right.

Apple Fall's newest skybox, which is very nicely textured, has this problem, although they seem to be very skilled builders. KIDD has this problem. Barnesworth Anubis mainly does NOT have this problem. Many older mesh houses from Dust Bunny have this problem. You can't name names on the forums so this will be removed but I'll make lists on my own blog and maybe even for the short time these names remain, the makers can wise up and stop doing this. 

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Here's my two cents on the subject, true or not ;)

you basically stand inside a phantom prim or mesh without a carefully crafted physics shape  and you can not rezz a prim inside a prim, you can move a prim inside a prim, but not rezz one, so the simulator tries to move the rezzed prim outside the reach of the phantom one, that could be outside the parcel and you get this message.

Happens a lot with giant off sim region surroundings.

greetzz

Dargo

Edited by Kardargo Adamczyk
typo's.. always typo's
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4 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

No, Chic. That DOES NOT WORK. Believe me, I've heard this many times, tried it many times, even in my office, not to mention rental homes.

It does not work to put an invisible prim over the prim that has this problem. This problem keeps shining through, God knows why. Even when you have the luxury to make it thicker (which you don't always if you don't want to upset everything in a house or community with tenants with the floor elevating and making them walk above an invisible floor, as bad as camera rocking.

Nor does it work to put things on "no shape" -- you just sink through then as often that makes it on "phantom" or "like" phantom.

The only way to fix this is for the maker to make this right.

Apple Fall's newest skybox, which is very nicely textured, has this problem, although they seem to be very skilled builders. KIDD has this problem. Barnesworth Anubis mainly does NOT have this problem. Many older mesh houses from Dust Bunny have this problem. You can't name names on the forums so this will be removed but I'll make lists on my own blog and maybe even for the short time these names remain, the makers can wise up and stop doing this. 

 

Well that has worked for me EVERY TIME I needed it to. Not sure why it isn't working for you (and obviously others if so many folks told you the "fix").  You don't want to LINK the new floor prim to the house and you can make it as thick as you want and just push it down into the floor so it is just BARELY above the floor.  

  You do NOT want to make the new floor prim phantom. You leave it as a regular prim.  In this case it is a plain plywood textured prim set to 98 percent transparency. 

 

In the beginning DB didn't have ANY physics if I remember and just had invisible prims everywhere (but not the floor I guess).  I was in an event long ago and saw that and cringed :D.  Very pretty work and I hope that the buildings DO have physics now. 

 

Here is a screenshot of my prim over floor in the  Country Hall 2016.    The crochet set rezzes perfectly on the floor. You can see the shadow prim overlay on top of the floor prim if you look carefully.   Without the prim it rezzed BELOW the floor and I have to cam down, find it and drag it up.   It not working for you could be an issue with the Linden viewer which I think you use. But for ALL THE FIRESTORM folks this works --- at least I have never heard of it not working (unless it is you :D).

 

image.thumb.png.f4e1d9457d1b13663e0da187d4297ce3.png

Edited by Chic Aeon
spelling and names oops
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Chic's suggestion of a very, very thin floor overlay will work if the transparency %  is set to just slightly under 100 - as she shows in her screen shot in her post above.  I usually use somewhere between 95% and 98%, which still allows you to see the original floor texture just fine.  I'm not sure why it doesn't work at full (100%) transparency but once I started setting to just under 100%, I've had it work every time.

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6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

..

has this problem, although they seem to be very skilled builders.

Somebody who hasn't figured this out by now is by definition not a good builder.

Ansd no, Prokofy, I mean it! It doesn't matter how fancy (and laggy) their texturing is, if they haven't figured out the basic craftmanship of 3D modelling for SL, they are not good builders. As Chic said, it took a while for people to figure it out - it's not as if LL ever documented their mesh hacks after all - but today it's a noob mistake no self respecting content creator would dream of making.

 

7 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

There are issues in the Traditional Belli houses

Sorry to hear that. I have to take back everything nice I've said about the Moles then. They're rubbish.

The message to all mesh modellers who can't be bothered to make proper physics models:

LEARN THE CRAFT!!!

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2 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

 

Well that has worked for me EVERY TIME I needed it to. Not sure why it isn't working for you (and obviously others if so many folks told you the "fix").  You don't want to LINK the new floor prim to the house and you can make it as thick as you want and just push it down into the floor so it is just BARELY above the floor.  

  You do NOT want to make the new floor prim phantom. You leave it as a regular prim.  In this case it is a plain plywood textured prim set to 98 percent transparency. 

 

In the beginning DB didn't have ANY physics if I remember and just had invisible prims everywhere (but not the floor I guess).  I was in an event long ago and saw that and cringed :D.  Very pretty work and I hope that the buildings DO have physics now. 

 

Here is a screenshot of my prim over floor in the  Country Hall 2016.    The crochet set rezzes perfectly on the floor. You can see the shadow prim overlay on top of the floor prim if you look carefully.   Without the prim it rezzed BELOW the floor and I have to cam down, find it and drag it up.   It not working for you could be an issue with the Linden viewer which I think you use. But for ALL THE FIRESTORM folks this works --- at least I have never heard of it not working (unless it is you :D).

 

image.thumb.png.f4e1d9457d1b13663e0da187d4297ce3.png

Um, yes, Chic, I know that you don't link that fix-up prim to the mesh DERP. And DERP DE DERP I know you don't make it phantom. 

Honestly, can you trust that other people know how to build besides you? Hello????

I have literally hundreds of houses and skyboxes -- no, thousands -- do you?

And I have tried everything on this problem, including transparent prims put down on them set to 98% or totally $100 or whatever, of different thicknesses, and not on physics, and it does not work. You're trying it on your own houses or a few; so is moira. I'm trying it on tons of them. It does not work.

Go to my office and you'll see a typical example. There's a KIDD gazebo which I like and many people like because it's one prim! Hello! All in one! So you can try to put a floor over it -- I have, of different thicknesses, to get rid of a chronic mesh bounce problem I have there, in my 50% off gatcha section. I get sick and tired of not being able to quickly rez out gatchas for sale there. IT DOES NOT WORK. Try rezzing a gatcha out on that floor -- IT BOUNCES.

Why? Likely due to that all-in-one nature -- the sides or top make it bounce because it's all-in-one. Go to my office, join the open group, try it and you'll see what I mean. You cannot cure it. I left it there so that at least it's there to pull out to rez on rather than the deck itself which can have other problems.

Or take a house, like the one in Hector. Trust me, I put in a floor there -- it does not work. Likely again due to walls being linked, or something interfering somewhere. I wouldn't report this if it were not true.

 

Edited by Prokofy Neva
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6 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Somebody who hasn't figured this out by now is by definition not a good builder.

Ansd no, Prokofy, I mean it! It doesn't matter how fancy (and laggy) their texturing is, if they haven't figured out the basic craftmanship of 3D modelling for SL, they are not good builders. As Chic said, it took a while for people to figure it out - it's not as if LL ever documented their mesh hacks after all - but today it's a noob mistake no self respecting content creator would dream of making.

 

Sorry to hear that. I have to take back everything nice I've said about the Moles then. They're rubbish.

The message to all mesh modellers who can't be bothered to make proper physics models:

LEARN THE CRAFT!!!

Yes, I did notice it in some rooms in the Victorians. But not in the campers. Which gave me hope.

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3 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Yes, I did notice it in some rooms in the Victorians. But not in the campers. Which gave me hope.

If somebody who pretends to be a skilled SL mesh maker in 2019/2020 makes a noob mistake like this, there is no hope for them. I do apreciate that some of them may be good designers, but ther is a craftmanship side to mesh making too.

Edited by ChinRey
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8 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

And he explains this by saying that the user is high up in the air, building, or decorating, as people so often are, and there is a little line that comes from them down to the object they are placing -- he gives the example of a 2000 meter high skybox and implies that the user is trying to place something on the ground from that height -- or that the line goes from the avatar in a skybox down to that ground regardless of where the placement is, and depending on the angle, it's actually on someone else's property.

This is so fantastically strange that I don't even know how to unpack it, because it simply isn't true.

The overwhelming majority of use cases of this phenomenon happen on your own land, where you as the owner or your tenants as group members and thus "like" owners, are placing one mesh item on another on the ground, within a radius of one meter, not in the air, or if in the air in a skybox, at least attempting to place an item right next to you.

 

7 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

I suggest  --- if you havent' already done this -- that putting an invisible floor (I think you need to use the transparent slider rather than the alpha texture but haven't tested that in awhile) on the floors of any of YOUR buildings so that it won't be an issue.

 

6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

No, Chic. That DOES NOT WORK. Believe me, I've heard this many times, tried it many times, even in my office, not to mention rental homes.

I haven't looked at this in detail since I haven't made meshes with faulty physics myself for more than five years but there are some indications that dodgy physics may mess up the ray tracing so badly you can't rez on a spot even if there is another good physics model there too. That could explain why physcs prim don't always work and also why you sometimes can't rez even on ground level.

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Note that I do not have to "try this" on MY houses as MINE HAVE CORRECT PHYSICS.   I have however tired it on MANY houses from various well-known and popular creators and it worked each time :D.

 

So it is certainly WORTH A TRY for folks that may have this problem.  Since there are still long time home makers who don't understand (or care) about physics, then what works for MANY of us --- may come in handy for people having this issue.  

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/6/2020 at 9:25 AM, Chic Aeon said:

Note that I do not have to "try this" on MY houses as MINE HAVE CORRECT PHYSICS.   I have however tired it on MANY houses from various well-known and popular creators and it worked each time :D.

 

So it is certainly WORTH A TRY for folks that may have this problem.  Since there are still long time home makers who don't understand (or care) about physics, then what works for MANY of us --- may come in handy for people having this issue.  

 

Just tried your theory once again -- you never know, and I don't mind being declared wrong on something as vexing as this, if what you say works.

But it doesn't.

I tried rezzing a prim over a floor -- tried different depths -- it was not linked; also tried linking it.

Doesn't work. The mesh bounces.

It seems as if when it is invisible, it can't be found to rez on (although of course in the sky, lots of things will rez on an invisible prim).

So now I have a half dozen houses where this bounce problem is from mild to severe -- some so bad you can't even rez a prim on them, let alone mesh -- and I've tried your solution repeatedly, and it doesn't work.

 

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This is the best JIRA issue that gives an explanation of why this problem happens: BUG-40694 - Rez Failure due to Mesh Physics Shapes resulting in massive Inventory Loss over time ( a collaborative effort ) Beq Janus & Polysail

tl/dr: the cause of the problem is a *****ty physics model on the mesh you are attempting to rez onto.  The creator of said mesh needs to fix their physics model.

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36 minutes ago, Whirly Fizzle said:

tl/dr: the cause of the problem is a *****ty physics model on the mesh you are attempting to rez onto.  The creator of said mesh needs to fix their physics model.

I couldn't agree more.

But to be fair, where are the creators supposed to find the info they need to be able to make good physics models? I havent' found any mention of it anywhere neitehr in HAVOK's nor LL's documentation.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/20/2020 at 5:43 PM, Whirly Fizzle said:

a *****ty physics model on the mesh

Mesh physics is generally pretty *****ty.

When making a decently-sized, albeit somewhat curved physical shape that perfectly aligns with the visual counterpart, in whatever 3D design program you use, you'll always end up with a mesh object in SL the physics shape of which is significantly larger. Even when your highlighted blue stuff seems to match, the interactions between visible  surfaces are always annoyingly off.

I always resort to adding an invisible prim set to physics ('prim') and scale it such, that it's visible mesh counterpart has an acceptable surface to surface interaction.

I'm talking about vehicles, btw.

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5 hours ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

When making a decently-sized, albeit somewhat curved physical shape that perfectly aligns with the visual counterpart, in whatever 3D design program you use, you'll always end up with a mesh object in SL the physics shape of which is significantly larger. Even when your highlighted blue stuff seems to match, the interactions between visible  surfaces are always annoyingly off.

That should only be true for analyzed physics models. Do you get it with unanalyzed ones too?

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On 1/21/2020 at 3:13 AM, Whirly Fizzle said:

This is the best JIRA issue that gives an explanation of why this problem happens: BUG-40694 - Rez Failure due to Mesh Physics Shapes resulting in massive Inventory Loss over time ( a collaborative effort ) Beq Janus & Polysail

tl/dr: the cause of the problem is a *****ty physics model on the mesh you are attempting to rez onto.  The creator of said mesh needs to fix their physics model.

So what are people supposed to do in the case of something like mesh grass which can be plagued by this issue as well? Surely a custom physics model isn't needed for grass considering it is most often set as no-physics in world and yet trying to rez on it sometimes (not all the time - seems to be viewer mood day driven) causes the same issue described in this thread...

Edited by Drayke Newall
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