Linden homes lag

[Aethelwine]

Are temp objects banned from Bellisseria? 

One use for them are with group or public vehicle rezzer,  by rezzing them with the temp setting they tidy themselves up once the person stands up. Without that setting they would cause littering problems

[Mollymews]

 yes temp rezzers are banned on Linden Home regions

from the covenant here:

 

Linden Home restrictions

- Land cannot contain sky boxes, temp-rezzers, or individual prims beyond the allocated size of the Second Life Viewer build tools — 10x10x10m (no megaprims).

 

 

edit add: to tidy up a vehicle when the person stand then we can use llDie() on CHANGED_LINK

altho I do get why TEMP_ON_REZ can be the only anti-littering solution in the narrow circumstance where a person stands, and their vehicle is on a parcel where scripts are disabled and auto-return is off

Edited January 8, 2020 by Mollymews

[Aethelwine]

I took that to mean builds that are constantly rezzing temp prims like a gazebo I had years ago, not things that just have that setting enabled for tidiness function like my pedalo rezzer. 

[Mollymews]

10 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

I took that to mean builds that are constantly rezzing temp prims like a gazebo I had years ago, not things that just have that setting enabled for tidiness function like my pedalo rezzer. 

this has always been my understanding of the use of temp rezzers on legacy mainland. As addressed in the Ad-farming legacy mainland policy, the use of temp rezzers is qualified. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Policy_on_ad_farms_and_network_advertisers

with the Linden Homes covenant then literally it says that the Linden Home estate restrictions are in addition to the existing legacy mainland use policies. The use of temp rezzers on the Linden Home estate is not qualified as they are in the legacy mainland ad-farm policy. The Linden Home covenant says the use of temp rezzers is banned on the estate without qualification

it would seem that the current prevailing LDPW view (going off some of the Mole posts in this thread) is that temp rezzers on the Linden Home estate are banned yes.  Altho tbf Patch Linden would have the authorative final word on this 

[Aethelwine]

55 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

this has always been my understanding of the use of temp rezzers on legacy mainland. As addressed in the Ad-farming legacy mainland policy, the use of temp rezzers is qualified. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Policy_on_ad_farms_and_network_advertisers

with the Linden Homes covenant then literally it says that the Linden Home estate restrictions are in addition to the existing legacy mainland use policies. The use of temp rezzers on the Linden Home estate is not qualified as they are in the legacy mainland ad-farm policy. The Linden Home covenant says the use of temp rezzers is banned on the estate without qualification

it would seem that the current prevailing LDPW view (going off some of the Mole posts in this thread) is that temp rezzers on the Linden Home estate are banned yes.  Altho tbf Patch Linden would have the authorative final word on this 

I am not so clear on it that they are talking about the same thing. They are talking about them being used to abuse resources, like my Gazebo did rezzing a fresh copy every minute.

My pedalo rezzer has no negatives on sim performance for rezzing a temp pedalo when you click it. It instead of negatives has the advantage over a rezzer that doesn't rezz a temp set vehicle in that it won't cause littering. 

[Mollymews]

32 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

I am not so clear on it that they are talking about the same thing

as you are wondering,  in the ad-farming policy as it applies to legacy mainland, the banning of temp rezzers applies only to a narrow case of potential abuse.  The Linden Home estate covenant just says that temp rezzers are banned

the Linden Home estate rules aren't in synch with the legacy mainland rules.  They are more restrictive

best I think to do a @Patch Linden and see if he will shed any light using a  temp rezzer in the way you are wanting to use it on the Linden Home estates. Might be ok, might be not tho. Patch Linden will know

 

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, Aethelwine said:

I am not so clear on it that they are talking about the same thing

what i think falling under the ban is the temp rezzer used for plants, decor and sometimes even home additions.
The temporal rezzing of vehicles is a total different thing, just rezzing one to use, and kill as soon the user stands up, not a 5 seconds repeative thing as in the first line.

[Claireschen Hesten]

11 hours ago, LulabellsAmour said:

I am in the Belli area, the lag is very very bad, but I am noticing neighbors all around me, building garages, extra patios, etc,  I tried to lower my max particles and everything else I could lower, and ended up seeing myself as an orange blob. 

In the Bellisseria group inworld there was something mentioned about turning on Object to Object occlusion or something like that in the develop menu (Ctrl + Shift + O) to improve things. It does give a performance boost i've notice lag is less bad with it active

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

I think @Wulfie Reanimator's explanation of the difference between "temp rezzers" (banned by the covenant) and object that rez items that are temporary in nature, like the vehicle rezzers, is correct. The former rezzes temporary items and promptly deletes them, over and over at a high rate of speed, which causes a strain on resources. The latter (such as a horse rezzer that gives you a horse that disappears only when you dismount) does not have that negative effect. 

[Alyona Su]

On 1/5/2020 at 2:13 PM, Malayaa said:

But then there is furniture that, for example, will rez a candlestick and table runner, it counts against the parcel LI and stays on the table looking pretty until you tell it "clear away".

 

On 1/5/2020 at 2:33 PM, Beth Macbain said:

I was having trouble understanding this as well since I'm entirely inept when it comes to knowledge of these things, so I cornered @Quartz Mole last night to get the explain-it-like-I'm-five version. 

The short answer is those types of things aren't what are really considered temp-rezzers so you're good!

I can clarify this one easily: The furniture you are using is AVSitter scripted (or using a similar system.) I build AVsitter systems for furniture creators professionally, so I have a little insight into this.

When you sit on this type of furniture and it rezzed a prop, that prop is not a temporary object; it is a fully-rezzed object that will use parcel LI as required. If there isn't enough LI available for it, it will not rezz. If it is attached to you, it is still a fully-rezzed object, though it must be copy and transfer, because if you do not own the furniture then it is transferred to you and is then converted into a Temporary object (via scripting) - this is why it does not go into your inventory and goes poof when you detach it or when you standup (or change poses).

The reason static props (like the coffee pot example) and transferred converted-to-temporary attachments go poof when you stand up or change poses is because there is a script inside those objects with an LL-DIE command (Not the actual syntax, BTW) or DETACH command that is executed when the pose changes. The main AVsitter scripts trigger this command inside those props when necessary.

This furniture and many vehicle rezzers, etc. that rez an object, and the object is not temporary, are all within the Covenant rules. A temp-rezzer rezzes a temporary object that the region deletes after 60 seconds, so it re-rezzes the object over and over to keep it there. THAT is baaaadddd. AVsitter and most vehicle and other rezzers do not do this. They only rez on demand (usually by touch or on a timer after scanning that the object does not already exist within range.)

Edited January 8, 2020 by Alyona Su

[Beth Macbain]

It's almost like people want Patch to drop by and say that anything and everything that could possibly maybe perhaps rezz an item that isn't entirely permanent is banned. No more vehicle rezzers, no more furniture with auto-attaching props, no more drink dispensers... 

And that would be a shame. 

[Nika Talaj]

A neighbor has a grandfather clock that temp-rezzes its pendulum.  Took me the longest time to figure out what the orange dot on his parcel was, until I discovered that Area Search lets you filter results so as to only show temporary objects.  I bet the creator thought the had figured out the MOST excellent way to keep his clock synced up!

But the temp-rez 60-second delete was never very precise, and now the implementation has changed so as to make it even less so. 

I can't bring myself to AR this trivial temp-rez use, nor can I figure out a way to talk to him about it that doesn't seem bizarrely intrusive.  I mean, if it was a hundred-LI table setting OK, but a 1-prim pendulum ... er....

[Blush Bravin]

The inner tube placed by the moles is a perfect example of a self-deleting object. It's not a temp rezzer item as it doens't delete itself and then immediately rerez a new one. So most vehicle rezzers work the same way the inner tube does that's placed by the moles and therefore do not break any covenant rules.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Blush Bravin
subject/verb agreement error fixed

[Abnor Mole]

Clarification on what is meant by prohibited "temp rezzers":
A non-temp object from a rezzer that becomes temp when sat upon (so it is self cleaning in no script areas) = OK
An object the rezzes a temp object (like a vehicle) when touched = OK
An object the rezzes a temp object over and over to mimic a permanent object to get around prim limits = NOT OK

[Mollymews]

On 1/9/2020 at 3:43 AM, Beth Macbain said:

It's almost like people want Patch to drop by and say that anything and everything that could possibly maybe perhaps rezz an item that isn't entirely permanent is banned. No more vehicle rezzers, no more furniture with auto-attaching props, no more drink dispensers... 

And that would be a shame. 

is more about worrying to pieces the text of a rule that is not self-explanatory, until an authority who can explain/define it does so. Abnor has now done this, and everybody is good now 

[Pussycat Catnap]

2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

is more about worrying to pieces the text of a rule that is not self-explanatory, until an authority who can explain/define it does so. Abnor has now done this, and everybody is good now 

Exactly.

Clarity is key.

I like to get them to fess up the precise rule on things even when it goes against me... so I know how to proceed.

Ambiguity is where drama llama's set up shop, and a rule is really only 'known' once there's a case-history to reference back to.

As for how we all debate these things endlessly... that's a good thing.

It may very well be that sometimes these questions result in one mole or linden asking the others in Slack "hey, what do we do if X happens?" and that gets them to think it out...

And finally moving on... Strong beliefs held loosely:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/strong-beliefs-held-loosely-alex-weinstein?articleId=6581373428081717248

http://winningmindtraining.com/strong-beliefs-held-loosely/

- Fight for a position until it's wrong, and be open to moving on.

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Pussycat Catnap

[Abnor Mole]

The temp rezzers prohibition was in written into the original Linden Homes covenant at a time when rerezzing temp prims to get around prim limits was a common practice on the mainland. Most everyone at the time understood the term "temp rezzing" referred to that specific practice and not every case of rezzing a temp object. Fortunately the practice has generally fallen out of favor over the years.

Often people will ask for clarity when really what they want is to find a loophole... like arguing that we say skyboxes have to be above 2000m but a platform doesn't count because it's technically not a box. Or what they want to do is find a case where they can argue the wording means something else that is common or reasonable is technically the same thing as the uncommon or unreasonable thing they wish to do. Therefore, if we allow the former we have to allow the latter or not allow either at all. Sometime people will simply argue the letter of the law in order to subvert the spirit of it. 

Sometimes ambiguity is used on purpose. We say things like "objects that extend outside of your parcel may be returned at any time and without notice". The word "may" allows us discretion in returning encroaching objects that are a problem while leaving those that are not. So someone upset because we returned their dock or grove of trees linked to a root prim 10 or 15m away on their parcel isn't likely to get much satisfaction from reporting every object on their neighbor's property that crosses the line by a few centimeters. 

[Quartz Mole]

It's important to understand that we've got nothing against objects being rezzed by scripts, and neither have we anything against temp-rez objects.    What we object to, and will return, are temp-rezzers, which are objects that constitute an unacceptable drain on region resources by abusing the temp-on-rez object property and constantly rezzing and re-rezzing the same temp-on-rez object for no legitimate reason.

So when you see an object that Firestorm says is a temp-on-rez object, that's nothing to worry about, in itself.   We're not interested in the object.    What we're interested in is the behaviour of the script that rezzes it, and how that affects the simulator performance, and that certainly requires individual observation and analysis of the rezzer,  and possibly of the region performance figures too, while the rezzer is in action.