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AriannaCarmen

Linden homes lag

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

I had a tiny shop on a homestead sim back in the day when they were new (and very cheap) and the landlord had a TON of temp rezzers working. My vendors kept disappearing because somehow (back then - don't know the techy part of the equation) the sim would become overcrowded and random items would be deleted as the sim was beyond capacity. 

To clarify, even if temporary objects don't count toward the LI limit, there's another limit specifically for temporary LI.

"(RegionPrimLimit - NumberOfPrimsInRegion) + Minimum(RegionPrimLimit/2, 1000)"
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Limits#Building

Edited by Wulfie Reanimator
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Posted (edited)

People really don't seem to realize - the big cost to a region with temp-rez content is not that personal LI is offloaded to the region, bad though that is, but that the most time-consuming and effortful thing a region does is to rez things.

Here in LH-land I don't think we have access to the monitoring tools one does as an estate manager on a private island, but if you watch the statistics panel over time you can see that a region with even only about 300LI of temp-rez begins to experience erratic performance that is not closely correlated to the temp-rez cycle.  We had a guy who had a 250-ish prim temp-rez spaceship and another person with about 20 LI temp-rez (a few of those pretty wisps from Botanical, they still sell them and I don't think they specify that these rez tumbling temp-rez objects grr).  Region performance was bizarrely spiky until we shut all that down.

There is a guy currently selling really nice animesh animals who includes a temp-rez version with each, to avoid the extra 15 LI that rezzed animesh incurs.  *throws hands up in despair*

Edited by Nika Talaj
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On 1/2/2020 at 4:02 PM, Pussycat Catnap said:

So here's an actual example of a temp-rez-object I just found this morning in Coral Bay:

c74c110c1fce44f1341a1690881d57b3.jpg

Had to guess where my mini-map was calling out, and then find something that when I used 'edit' showed as "temporary".

The blue on the minimap is objects I owns, all the grey and black is objects others own. I don't personally know what the difference is between grey and black...

It's maybe worth pointing out that mesh objects always count against LI, whether they're set to temp-on-rez or not.   

Temp-rezzing mesh objects is as bad, if not worse, for the simulator than is temp-rezzing prims and sculpties, of course, but people don't seem to realise that they're not even gaining any particular advantage from their selfish and antisocial abuse of this function (originally intended so things like bullets and arrows on combat regions can be used without worrying about LI).

 

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1 minute ago, Quartz Mole said:

It's maybe worth pointing out that mesh objects always count against LI, whether they're set to temp-on-rez or not.   

Temp-rezzing mesh objects is as bad, if not worse, for the simulator than is temp-rezzing prims and sculpties, of course, but people don't seem to realise that they're not even gaining any particular advantage from their selfish and antisocial abuse of this function (originally intended so things like bullets and arrows on combat regions can be used without worrying about LI).

 

I didn't know that, that's good/cool to know. Can you elaborate on why it could be worse for the sim to rez mesh compared to prims or sculpts? I can speculate, but I'd like to hear it.

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10 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I didn't know that, that's good/cool to know. Can you elaborate on why it could be worse for the sim to rez mesh compared to prims or sculpts? I can speculate, but I'd like to hear it.

Simply because the sort of complex mesh objects that people are likely to want to temp rez tend to be pretty expensive in terms of their LI precisely because of their physics and rendering costs.

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38 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

It's maybe worth pointing out that mesh objects always count against LI, whether they're set to temp-on-rez or not.

am not sure if it has been fixed now (it might have been since) but temp_on_rez linked mesh objects only counted as 1 LI the last time I played with this

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30 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

am not sure if it has been fixed now (it might have been since) but temp_on_rez linked mesh objects only counted as 1 LI the last time I played with this

Thanks.   I will certainly check that.   Last time I played with it (or my alt did, rather) it was to make something that temp attached demo hairs to people, so the fact the demo hair had a very high LI for the moments between rezzing and temp attaching to the customer was a real issue.  

I did check this with the appropriate people at LL and was told there no plans to change it (though I suppose if there's a conventional prim box set to convex hull as the root and the rest of the item is set to physics shape none, then, at least in theory, that should give it an LI of one).

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Quartz Mole said:

It's maybe worth pointing out that mesh objects always count against LI, whether they're set to temp-on-rez or not.   

Temp-rezzing mesh objects is as bad, if not worse, for the simulator than is temp-rezzing prims and sculpties, of course, but people don't seem to realise that they're not even gaining any particular advantage from their selfish and antisocial abuse of this function (originally intended so things like bullets and arrows on combat regions can be used without worrying about LI).

 

BTW that particular item in the screenshot is still there in Coral Bay

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap

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On 1/1/2020 at 3:17 PM, Tori Landau said:

Hi Arianna, I'm having the same problem.  Try reducing your draw distance down to the lowest level and also reducing the complexity of your avatar.  I use one of the Linden Classic avatars.  Hopefully this helps you a bit.  Best wishes, Tori

I reduced my max everything today, max complexity, max distance, etc.  I went out of SL and when I came back in all I could see of my avi was an orange blob.  My SL friends did not know how to fix this problem, they told me they could see my complete avi, when all I was seeing was an orange blob.  I was able to fix this orange blob problem by reverting to a classic avi for beginners.  The classic avi loaded instantly, and once it did, I went to my safe outfits, but on one of them and low and behold!!  Me again!  Well the new mesh  catwa, maiterya lara me

hope this helps for all the orange blob victims

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15 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

BTW that particular item in the screenshot is still there

 

Thanks.    I took a look at it earlier and, as you note in another post, the meal had disappeared from the table.

There's nothing I could see about the object that suggests to me it's a temp-rezzer, other than one ambiguously-titled script, so I'm not at all sure it's anything other than a standard dining-table set that rezzes props when needed and deletes them on command when they're no longer wanted, and unless I can see it running (or unless I buy a copy myself and read the instructions) I have no way of telling whether there's anything untoward about it.

If you have any more concerns about it, please don't hesitate to report it, and it'll be investigated in more depth, but in the meantime I think it might be prudent to remove the slurl from your posts identifying the parcel.   

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Posted (edited)

Sending that as a message...

Maybe I misread Patch, I had thought he wanted us to give the locations of these things for easy review.

@Quartz Mole While I know temp-rezzers are not allowed on Linden Homes, just how bad are they? My mainland plot has a neighbor full of them and I don't seem to feel the lag. Then again I need to count them over there but I've made a point of not looking too hard... And it's a region with very few land owners so it's just the one neighbor with them.

I'm here reporting them in the Linden Homes, but ignoring them on mainland - and wondering if I'm being "5th grade hall monitor" over something minor or if I'm reporting a 500-lbs Coke bust... :P

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap

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33 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Sending that as a message...

Maybe I misread Patch, I had thought he wanted us to give the locations of these things for easy review.

@Quartz Mole While I know temp-rezzers are not allowed on Linden Homes, just how bad are they? My mainland plot has a neighbor full of them and I don't seem to feel the lag. Then again I need to count them over there but I've made a point of not looking too hard... And it's a region with very few land owners so it's just the one neighbor with them.

I'm here reporting them in the Linden Homes, but ignoring them on mainland - and wondering if I'm being "5th grade hall monitor" over something minor or if I'm reporting a 500-lbs Coke bust... :P

 

Thanks.   We need the slurls, but since there are forum rules against "naming and shaming" people it might be more prudent to give us the slurls by way of private messages or IMs rather than posting them here.   That's what concerned me.

A lot depends on the size, number and complexity of the items being temp-rezzed but generally, at least as I recall from when temp rezzers first became popular, they do have a really significant impact on region resources.    Re-rezzing a complex object and de-rezzing and re-rezzing it every few seconds or so can cause the simulator performance to take quite a hit, and if there are several of them running on a busy region it's pretty bad news, or can be.

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Posted (edited)

Whenever the region's servers are asked to rez something, there is a perceptible drop in available resources.  The more things that need to be rezzed at once, or the more complex those things are, the greater the temporary drain on the servers.  The same thing happens when avatars enter or leave a region. It takes a certain amount of the servers' attention to move objects and avatars around.  The practical result is that these things create lag.  One major problem with repeating temp rezzers, then, is that they keep producing that small amount of lag over and over again, like background white noise that is a constant drain, making it just that much harder for the servers to do other things.  A temp rezzer that isn't repeating continually or one lonely temp rezzer in a region probably aren't going to be noticed.  If several people each start setting out several of the things, though, they can be a real annoyance.  That's one reason why we Moles don't use temp rezzers to create the butterflies in Bellisseria, for example, but use animated textures instead.

Edited by Dyna Mole
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5 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

We need the slurls, but since there are forum rules against "naming and shaming" people it might be more prudent to give us the slurls by way of private messages or IMs rather than posting them here.   That's what concerned me.

That would concern me too, but I don't think anyone would be breaking the naming and shaming rule by posting at least the name of the region where you think there's something going on.  We wouldn't want people to start posting here instead of submitting abuse reports, but you know that moles and Lindens do occasionally read the forums. If we see something that needs attention, especially if it's something pretty simple, we can sometimes at least take a quick look, if we know where to look.

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18 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

While I know temp-rezzers are not allowed on Linden Homes, just how bad are they? My mainland plot has a neighbor full of them and I don't seem to feel the lag

just a bit on the history of TEMP_ON_REZ

back in the day of the mainland wars, some people into signage would have a small parcel. A 16m say, which back then had a LI (prim count) of 3.  By using TEMP_ON_REZ on a fast rezzer, then because a linkset object only counted as 1 LI when using TEMP_ON_REZ then they could display linkset objects containing more than 3 LI on their parcel

TEMP_ON_REZ typically clears objects every 1 minute, so rez a new TEMP_ON_REZ copy of the linkset object every 30 seconds. Max parcel LI used each minute is 2 LI.  The visual effect is an object that appears to be a static display

Linden banned this practice way back then, on the basis that we are not allowed to use TEMP_ON_REZ to circumvent the  LI count of our parcel. LI we haven't paid for.  This practice of using TEMP_ON_REZ  to circumvent our parcel LI is still banned on legacy mainland

there were a number of jiras back in the day about a technical fix for this.  But I dunno if Linden ever did a fix.  I might have to do some testing to see if Linden did change this, or whether TEMP_ON_REZ linked objects still only count as 1 LI.  Quartz did suggest earlier that Linden had done something. Just that what was written seemed to be more about  rezzing llAttachToAvatarTemp() linkset objects

hopefully tho, somebody else reading already knows the answer and then we can know for sure

 just so I don't start a pitch-fork hunt for people who do use TEMP_ON_REZ legitimately. There are lots of legitimate reasons for using this capability.  TEMP_ON_REZ is only banned on legacy mainland when the use of it creates a visually static display that would exceed the parcel LI count, were the linkset object rezzed normally  

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I'm trying to understand the temp rezzer thing and how to be a good neighbor in my Linden home, a lot of my furniture will rez props things, like a coffee cup or a laptop and when you stand up it goes away.  But then there is furniture that, for example, will rez a candlestick and table runner, it counts against the parcel LI and stays on the table looking pretty until you tell it "clear away".  Is the table rezzed candlestick possibly more of a drain than if I just rezzed my own 1 prim candlestick and put it there?   I get the concept now of temp rez emitters, like a candle rock I have will emit butterflies in one wave after another lol so I no longer use it in the garden..although when I first got a Linden Home last April I will confess it was out for a while due to ignorance. :) 

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24 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

Thanks.   We need the slurls, but since there are forum rules against "naming and shaming" people it might be more prudent to give us the slurls by way of private messages or IMs rather than posting them here.   That's what concerned me.

Thanks. That gives me a path to follow.

Will make sure to edit anything I've tossed out recently enough to edit. :)

 

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Posted (edited)

If we go to MiniMap and right click. Then select Show and then select Temp Rez items it shows any temp rezzers on the map in orange, right?  I’ve been checking my objects are okay that way...hope that’s right!

i actually only learnt that this week, thanks to a helpful friend ❤️

Edited by Sakura Sands
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9 minutes ago, Malayaa said:

I'm trying to understand the temp rezzer thing and how to be a good neighbor in my Linden home, a lot of my furniture will rez props things, like a coffee cup or a laptop and when you stand up it goes away.  But then there is furniture that, for example, will rez a candlestick and table runner, it counts against the parcel LI and stays on the table looking pretty until you tell it "clear away".  Is the table rezzed candlestick possibly more of a drain than if I just rezzed my own 1 prim candlestick and put it there?

Just edit the thing it rezzed and see if it has "Temporary" checkmarked - like you can see in some of my screenshots above.

If it has temporary checked it means it has to keep rezzing it over and over and over again because Temporary items vanish after 60 seconds unless sat on.

Most modern table rezzed stuff is NOT temporary.

 

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16 minutes ago, Malayaa said:

I'm trying to understand the temp rezzer thing and how to be a good neighbor in my Linden home, a lot of my furniture will rez props things, like a coffee cup or a laptop and when you stand up it goes away.  But then there is furniture that, for example, will rez a candlestick and table runner, it counts against the parcel LI and stays on the table looking pretty until you tell it "clear away".  Is the table rezzed candlestick possibly more of a drain than if I just rezzed my own 1 prim candlestick and put it there?   I get the concept now of temp rez emitters, like a candle rock I have will emit butterflies in one wave after another lol so I no longer use it in the garden..although when I first got a Linden Home last April I will confess it was out for a while due to ignorance. :) 

I was having trouble understanding this as well since I'm entirely inept when it comes to knowledge of these things, so I cornered @Quartz Mole last night to get the explain-it-like-I'm-five version. 

The short answer is those types of things aren't what are really considered temp-rezzers so you're good!

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47 minutes ago, Sakura Sands said:

If we go to MiniMap and right click. Then select Show and then select Temp Rez items it shows any temp rezzers on the map in orange, right?  I’ve been checking my objects are okay that way...hope that’s right!

That is right.  Further, if you use firestorm, you can often use "area search" to zero in on what exactly the offending object is.  Go to the parcel, bring up area search and do not put anything in the search terms; hit search and then, on the results page, hit refresh just for kicks.  It will now list everything it found on the parcel.  Now go to (I think) options, and filter the results so that they show only temporary items!

Note that area search is not foolproof.  Seems to me it is somehow affected by draw distance, and occasionally it just completely omits something I'm standing on top of.  But more often than not, it works great.

57 minutes ago, Malayaa said:

I'm trying to understand the temp rezzer thing and how to be a good neighbor in my Linden home, a lot of my furniture will rez props things, like a coffee cup or a laptop and when you stand up it goes away.  But then there is furniture that, for example, will rez a candlestick and table runner, it counts against the parcel LI and stays on the table looking pretty until you tell it "clear away".  Is the table rezzed candlestick possibly more of a drain than if I just rezzed my own 1 prim candlestick and put it there?   I get the concept now of temp rez emitters, like a candle rock I have will emit butterflies in one wave after another lol so I no longer use it in the garden..although when I first got a Linden Home last April I will confess it was out for a while due to ignorance. :) 

Ok, wait.  It is quite possible that none of those items are "temp-rez". 

> No, if your table rezzes a laptop that goes away when you stand up, probably it is using AVSitter and those are actually attachments to you.  No attachment can be temp-rez.  I suppose that alternatively, it might be another sit system that actually rezzes the laptop independent of you, and then, when you stand up, the script kills whatever it rezzed.  Either way, no temp=rez.

> If you know that a table-rezzed candlestick is counting against the parcel LI, then no, it is no more of a drain than if you rezzed one. However, if your table rezzes a full gourmet dinner which mysteriously does not affect your LI, that's probably temp-rez, which you can verify just by editing a rezzed object.

> Candle rock butterfly emitters ... hmmm... one wave after another ... MAN those sound like particles!  Tell me, if you turn off particles, do the butterflies disappear?  Betcha they do!  Particles are special "sprites", not actually objects, and cannot be "temp-rez".   [Even tho particles usually have their own limited lifetime, they are not temp-rez and do not burden the region particularly.  They CAN lag your viewer quite a bit, if you don't set the max number to something less than 4096.  i usually leave it at around 1200.]

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Well that was fun, logged in to check what all my furniture and bathtub rezzes, used the Pussycat "check object to see if it has temporary checked" method and Sakura's mini-map search for temp rezzers and learned a lot, everything is good even my over the top bathtub...and now I have some more tools for my SL toolbox :)  I appreciate Beth passing along info from the Mole she cornered ha ha.  Will check on Nika's particle butterfly test next time I log in! 

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1 hour ago, Mollymews said:

TEMP_ON_REZ  ... testing

i tested this

Quartz is right that a TEMP_ON_REZ mesh linkset (even when set to PRIM type) will count toward the parcel LI

when the linkset is made of prims then TEMP_ON_REZ  still only counts as 1 LI

probably because mesh was a new thing, this change was  made at the time mesh was introduced to the grid. Whereas prims were legacy and changing this for prims may have broken existing stuff

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Malayaa said:

I'm trying to understand the temp rezzer thing and how to be a good neighbor in my Linden home, a lot of my furniture will rez props things, like a coffee cup or a laptop and when you stand up it goes away.  But then there is furniture that, for example, will rez a candlestick and table runner, it counts against the parcel LI and stays on the table looking pretty until you tell it "clear away".  Is the table rezzed candlestick possibly more of a drain than if I just rezzed my own 1 prim candlestick and put it there?   I get the concept now of temp rez emitters, like a candle rock I have will emit butterflies in one wave after another lol so I no longer use it in the garden..although when I first got a Linden Home last April I will confess it was out for a while due to ignorance. :) 

The simple way is to inspect the objects when they are rezzed and see if they show as being temp-on-rez.    

 

temp on rez.png

 

There's no problem with props rezzing when they're needed and being removed when they're not.   That's no different from your rezzing it from inventory.    

It's when the same item is being rezzed and derezzed and rerezzed by script every 20 seconds or so, 24/7, that it becomes an issue.

Edited by Quartz Mole
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On 1/1/2020 at 8:02 PM, AriannaCarmen said:

I'm in the Bennet region (and I haven't bothered updating my profile. It still has my old system pic) 

I am in the Belli area, the lag is very very bad, but I am noticing neighbors all around me, building garages, extra patios, etc,  I tried to lower my max particles and everything else I could lower, and ended up seeing myself as an orange blob.  So I had to revert back to the classic avi, to stop seeing that orange blob.  I do not like the classic older avi, so I quickly reverted back to my lara mesh avi.  Anyhow, as a new owner of a Traditional Home in the Belli area, I am decorating it, with all low prim stuff.  Hope this will help in my small way as an effort to reduce lag, without the powers that be dictating how I want my avi to look.  We were given these new linden homes because they can hold more prims, but I do think we all should do our best when decorating our new homes, to do so with low prim stuff

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