LittleMe Jewell Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 7 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said: But if it's a balcony then it looks like they just covered their boat with a prim with an opaque window texture... 7 hours ago, Lucille Babenco said: where are the original boat houses? As Sylvia speculated, they rezzed the house thing in front of their houseboat. Here is a picture from above. The only thing inside the house is a small photo booth with a spinning texture. Maybe they plan on taking the house up to be a skybox - hopefully anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 7 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said: 7 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said: this has also been here long enough to show on the map: Lil posted that on jan 16th .. if thats the same Yep - that is the same one. So either LL hasn't had a chance to look at it yet -- implying that Covenant Violation ARs take longer than 2 weeks to deal with -- or LL has decided that it is not an issue. Given the height of the balloon, I'm hoping for the first of those -- LL just hasn't gotten to it. Somewhat depressing though if it is taking LL longer than 2.5 weeks to get to these ARs. Implies they either desperately need more people in Governance or they just don't really care much about Covenant violations or both. Neither of which is a very happy thought. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nika Talaj Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 9 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said: Somewhat depressing though if it is taking LL longer than 2.5 weeks to get to these ARs. Implies they either desperately need more people in Governance or they just don't really care much about Covenant violations or both. Neither of which is a very happy thought. Well, on the encouraging side, they eventually did get around to taking care of a couple of cars I reported a couple months ago. The same person still owns the property who owned the cars, so either they got tired of having them, neighbors objected, or LL dropped them a line. But there is this: how much experience does LL have enforcing a covenant? Isn't it ... zero, or dang near that? Help me out, I can't remember any land they've administered where it was possible to report people for being out of theme. When did they ever do it? Perhaps they simply underestimated how much time and mundane effort covenant enforcement takes. Or didn't believe estate owners who, I'm sure, have informed them of this, over the years. And when the moles stop actively building in Belli, there will be still fewer folks available to enforce here and there. I cannot believe LL would hire more people into governance just to enforce LH covenants. I think that, as far as enforcement goes, what we see now is the very best LL can do. And if you've been wondering why I encourage people to continue supporting their favorite estates, now you know. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 25 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said: Yep - that is the same one. So either LL hasn't had a chance to look at it yet -- implying that Covenant Violation ARs take longer than 2 weeks to deal with -- or LL has decided that it is not an issue. Given the height of the balloon, I'm hoping for the first of those -- LL just hasn't gotten to it. A third possibility id that it was removed and then rezzed again. 31 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said: As Sylvia speculated, they rezzed the house thing in front of their houseboat. Here is a picture from above. The only thing inside the house is a small photo booth with a spinning texture. Maybe they plan on taking the house up to be a skybox - hopefully anyway. - Been wondering what region this was on. Was unable to find it when I went looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 5 minutes ago, Nika Talaj said: But there is this: how much experience does LL have enforcing a covenant? Isn't it ... zero, or dang near that? Help me out, I can't remember any land they've administered where it was possible to report people for being out of theme. When did they ever do it? There were sometimes covenant violations on the old Linden Home regions that were reported. I reported some building platforms back in the early years - quite a few during the first few months. Apparently folks back then didn't read the things they agreed to any better than they do in Bellisseria. No clue how much reporting they've had to deal with over the last few years though. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eowyn Southmoor Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Unfortunately the descent into "Mainland v2.0" started the moment they went to the single region only releases. When the continent first went live, everyone who got a house or houseboat in those first few days knew what Bellisseria was, otherwise they would've missed out. Therefore they knew that it was a LL home continent, and subject to a covenant with specific rules. However, after the success of the initial release, and then the squishy pickle, it seemed everyone wanted to suddenly be a part of Belli and want a home - without any of the "preparation" the first residents did. So from when LL first started the 3 releases per week schedule, you've had people grabbing homes without reading or understanding what they've got themselves into. This has only gotten worse as regions were continued to be churned out. It sort of paused a little when the Vics were released, because again, most people were waiting fro them, and had some idea when/what was happening. Now that Belli is one again "full" and the regions are back to the release trickle, it's heading back to "grab a home now" syndrome. Not sure what LL can do about it honestly - as more homes are built and occupied, the number of infractions will increase proportionally. I guess though in a few years, most will be spread out enough over the numerous themes that statistically you might be less likely to have an neighbour with an eye-sore. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raspberry Crystal Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 It seems to me that 'covenant enforcement' is the business that LL are moving into right now, or at least one of the threads of their new business model They have become more like property landlords and less like land leaseholders who just get their money whatever happens. When someone misbehaves in a houseboat they ruin the experience for a lot of other surrounding plot-holders. Some of the mess seems to be created by very casual users who have butterflied off elsewhere after their five minutes of dumping something which turned out not to work very well. This kind of stuff needs a big broom (or snow shovel) and that's just down to staffing levels. (photobooths balanced on HB roofs really grind my gears as well) However, some of the problems though are to do with the theme itself. I really don't like palm trees growing in 2" of wooden deck over sea-water. Much as I love horses, real and virtual, they don't look right in any of the current Belli theme styles. Thick snow is completely jarring to the eye. If there was a tropical theme, a country farm theme and a mountain snowland then some of those people, who are looking for community life in SL could find a more suitable space to express themselves. We only have four themes to go, but if the team can come up with a careful mix which covers the broadest popular wishes then hopefully that will let the steam out of some of the inappropriate restyling as premium members try to adapt homes to suit themselves. That will then concentrate resources on tackling the careless or vindictive spoiling of our beautiful landscape. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Alcott Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 17 minutes ago, Eowyn Southmoor said: Not sure what LL can do about it honestly quite simple .. fást action and minimal tollerance on freedom in the covenant. It will keep fait in the company and the LH regions livable. Since some months there's a gliding scale down. Birth of mainland 2.0 is already some time ago, question is, does LL take it off lifesupport or let it spread and ruin everything. The way LL handeled most things in the past make me fear worst. They'r pretty good in dropping rules on residents and bad in maintaining it. "we need your help" reporting it.. but as it is already, people getting houses assigned and leave instantly when getting such neighbours, because they know already it takes ages before it's solved. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucille Babenco Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Raspberry Crystal said: It seems to me that 'covenant enforcement' is the business that LL are moving into right now, or at least one of the threads of their new business model They have become more like property landlords and less like land leaseholders who just get their money whatever happens. When someone misbehaves in a houseboat they ruin the experience for a lot of other surrounding plot-holders. Some of the mess seems to be created by very casual users who have butterflied off elsewhere after their five minutes of dumping something which turned out not to work very well. This kind of stuff needs a big broom (or snow shovel) and that's just down to staffing levels. (photobooths balanced on HB roofs really grind my gears as well) However, some of the problems though are to do with the theme itself. I really don't like palm trees growing in 2" of wooden deck over sea-water. Much as I love horses, real and virtual, they don't look right in any of the current Belli theme styles. Thick snow is completely jarring to the eye. If there was a tropical theme, a country farm theme and a mountain snowland then some of those people, who are looking for community life in SL could find a more suitable space to express themselves. We only have four themes to go, but if the team can come up with a careful mix which covers the broadest popular wishes then hopefully that will let the steam out of some of the inappropriate restyling as premium members try to adapt homes to suit themselves. That will then concentrate resources on tackling the careless or vindictive spoiling of our beautiful landscape. Personally I think that Linden is dedicating many technical resources to build Bellisseria and preserve this special aesthetic, and not to becoming a new crap container as the classic mainland that we all know. I understand that each person has their own particular "decoration" style, and likes certain kinds of things, but we don't talk about interior decoration. The aesthetic nonsense that we've seen repeatedly harms the entire neighborhood that has to live by its side. Of course, there is always the option to move, but what happens if your current Linden Home is the one you had always dreamed of? Why do you have to abandon it up because someone simply ignores the rules of behavior in Bellisseria? I've decided to get a Linden Home just to enjoy the landscape and views of these sims, It's not my usual residence, but it's sad to see how other people converts an high quality creation into a dumpster. Edited February 3, 2020 by Lucille Babenco 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucille Babenco Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 4 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said: quite simple .. fást action and minimal tollerance on freedom in the covenant. It will keep fait in the company and the LH regions livable. Since some months there's a gliding scale down. Birth of mainland 2.0 is already some time ago, question is, does LL take it off lifesupport or let it spread and ruin everything. The way LL handeled most things in the past make me fear worst. They'r pretty good in dropping rules on residents and bad in maintaining it. "we need your help" reporting it.. but as it is already, people getting houses assigned and leave instantly when getting such neighbours, because they know already it takes ages before it's solved. I want to think that Linden will do something more tan says "we need your help", obviously we have the option to report but I don't want to be a Linden cop sincerelly, I don't work for them. In addition, the AR reports will grow proportionally to the number of the released Linden Homes, and could be huge in a few months, that means more waiting time to solve them properly, probably because will be consider them as low priority. As I said in a previous message, Linden will be dedicating many resources to Bellisseria, I hope that the monitoring of wrong content against the rules be much more effective than the classic mainland. Maybe they should have special staff for it, it's just a suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Alcott Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, Lucille Babenco said: I want to think that Linden will do something more tan says "we need your help" However i hink it's not connected to the AR reports, there are others reading the forum and i hope being able to assist LL in these situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyona Su Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 19 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said: Someone is on the land, but this has also been here long enough to show on the map: Note that the world map is updated every Tuesday and Thursday, though I'm not sure about Saturdays or at what time on the clock. Generally-speaking, some AR's must take weeks. I AR'd a traditional clearly out-of-theme (and garish) near my very first. Twice (the second time after a week) - I decided to move out a month after I moved in. Either they've always had a massive back-log or sometimes they just wave it off and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucille Babenco Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Alyona Su said: Note that the world map is updated every Tuesday and Thursday, though I'm not sure about Saturdays or at what time on the clock. Generally-speaking, some AR's must take weeks. I AR'd a traditional clearly out-of-theme (and garish) near my very first. Twice (the second time after a week) - I decided to move out a month after I moved in. Either they've always had a massive back-log or sometimes they just wave it off and move on. I hope than the "generic" solution that Linden provides to ARs related to clearly inappropriate content isn't only "leave the home and look elsewhere for a new one". That would be very unfair to residents who really like their homes and want to keep them in their current place. Edited February 3, 2020 by Lucille Babenco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said: Unfortunately the descent into "Mainland v2.0" started the moment they went to the single region only releases. When the continent first went live, everyone who got a house or houseboat in those first few days knew However, after the success of the initial release, and then the squishy pickle, it seemed everyone wanted to suddenly be a part of Belli and want a home - without any of the "preparation" the first residents did. So from when LL first started the 3 releases per week schedule, you've had people grabbing homes without reading or understanding what they've got themselves into. This has only gotten worse as regions were continued to be churned out. It sort of paused a little when the Vics were released, because again, most people were waiting fro them, and had some idea when/what was happening. I have the opposite perspective on this. The initial flood of people had a lot of issues, so the covenant was enhanced after the fact to address those. During the slow release of homes, 1-2 regions a day, problem residents could be handled rapidly and most learned the covenant within the first day or so. When the Victorians arrived along with a lot more houses of the other 3 themes all within a short time frame - the community nearly if not more than doubled in size in less than 1-2 weeks... a LOT of those people have yet to be absorbed in. Many will have no neighbors that are older to here then they are - whole regions full of people who have no experience with the covenant, the community, or any of the Bellisseria events. It will take a few months to absorb them all. That said, the number of violations is actually shockingly small given all of this. I don't see that at any time in all of this people were more or less prepared or reading ahead. Just an issue of volume of people coming in at any given time. If 1/100 people are bad actors... then if you add 20 a day, it takes 5 days to get a bad person - and when you do there's 5 lindens standing around waiting for something to do that jump on it... If you add 2000 a day... you get 20 bad actors a day... and it takes longer to find them because you haven't multiplied the number of governance team members by 10 as well... What can Linden Lab do about it? Time. With some time, and the covenant in place - things will get addressed. For every 100 bad actors... you've probably only got 1 of them that is purposefully bad... so 0.01% of the community... The rest just need a little nudge and reminder to read the covenant. How often do we really see someone who got AR'd do it again? Almost never... that balloon above MIGHT be the first one... or it could just be not yet dealt with... This isn't mainland 2.0... this is a situation working well, and as intended. It just needs time to absorb all the new folks. Often when a place seems infested with problems, it's really being driven by a very tiny number of people that the system simply hasn't caught up to yet. Real world crime works like that... Police will tell you things like "yeah we could solve 80% of the crime overnight if we could lock up those 3 families right over there... everyone else here in "the hood" is just a poor sod trying to keep his head down... and his teenage kid that thought it would be cool to hang out over at that house right there..." The number of problem people is a LOT fewer than it can appear... because they stand out much more than the 'head down' folks... and a lot of folks just 'rez something cool' that they saw that guy over there rez... Time solves a lot of it when it lacks the same factors that make issues systemic in the real world. Edited February 3, 2020 by Pussycat Catnap 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moles Abnor Mole Posted February 3, 2020 Moles Share Posted February 3, 2020 It is important that if residents see something in Bellisseria that is a gross violation of the Linden Homes Covenant they report it in an abuse report for a couple of reasons. Foremost, the Lab relies on the abuse reporting system to track repeat offenders. A large majority of instances in Bellisseria are from people who simply don't know better. Once they do know it generally doesn't happen again. But for that small minority who may decide they are just going to do what they want anyway, having that record that they have already been officially warned (and are just going to ignore it) is crucial. Just as important is that Moles and Lindens often have other duties that take precedent over purposefully looking for platforms at 1000m or cyberpunk dance floors on the top of a Victorian home. That doesn't mean we want residents to go about being "covenant cops" looking for every minor infraction. Quite the contrary. If we see something that is a problem we will act on it. It just means we also rely on residents to bring things to our attention so it can be addressed as soon as possible. For the reason above, the overwhelmingly preferred mechanism for that is by making an abuse report. To that end, a few things residents can do when making Abuse Reports can help greatly: Make sure the abuse report includes a clear screenshot of the violation (if applicable) Click on the offending object in edit so it is highlighted in the screenshot when you report it. Be close to the object when you report it and not camming in from 200m away. That way the investigating person can easy see what the problem is and find it quickly from the slurl in the report. Be clear, succinct and stick to the verifiable facts in the report. The resident may have been quite rude when you pointed out their horse corral in their houseboat parcel isn't keeping in theme, but is a transcript of the entire conversation to show just how rude they were a necessary salient detail to the issue at hand? Probably not. It just means the person investigating has more to read. Include in the summary that this is a Linden Homes Covenant issue so they know what to expect when they open the report. For lack of a better category, perhaps use "Land > Encroachment > Object or Textures" Finally, ask yourself "Is this really a serious issue? Who is it bothering? If everyone did this would it be a problem?" The more reports the team has to read the longer it will take to get to yours. If a significant number of those are for minor technical violations or trivial matters that really aren't hurting anyone it will impact the time it takes for them to get to the more egregious and important ones. 11 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyona Su Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Lucille Babenco said: I hope than the "generic" solution that Linden provides to ARs related to clearly inappropriate content isn't only "leave the home and look elsewhere for a new one". That would be very unfair to residents who really like their homes and want to keep them in their current place. I doubt they would ever consider that as a solution or even as an acceptable work-around. There are two issues at play here, with the caveat of a third: The Governance team is surely swamped; they will get to them when they can. The Governance team has visited the complaint and has deemed it to be not an offense (within covenant stipulations) [Caveat] The complaint was resolved with removal of the offending objects; the offending objects were replaced (re-rezzed) after-the-fact In the case of the first: excruciating patience must be observed. In the case of the second: each person has different perceptions of ambiguous or "hazy" scenarios and that includes members of the governance team; not all offenses are clear-cut-and-dry. In the case of the third, multiple ARs over re-rezzing something that has been found in violation will beget a punishment, including a suspension, and in some cases, an outright ban. In the cases of suspension versus a ban: A ban is permanent and difficult for all but the most nerdy of hackers to circumvent. In the case of a paid premium subscription, a suspension is the most likely worst-case scenario unless the offense is *so bad* that governance feels tolerance is not an acceptable answer and will likely escalate the issue to higher-ups for a final decision in this regard. Any time there is a ban, Linden Lab has very carefully vetted everything at their disposal and does not do so lightly. It is the proverbial nuclear bomb dropped onto someone's head. I am with the firm belief that these are the primary causes of an apparently ignored (by Governance) Abuse-Reported activities or objects, etc. Edited February 3, 2020 by Alyona Su 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 As to the re-rezzing of items that have been returned, it would be nice if we had some sort of "average" time that it takes LL to deal with ARs. At least then we'd know that after X amount of days it is likely that LL has see it -- and if it is not even a questionable offense (skybox below 2000m, etc..) - then we could guess that it might be a re-rez and thus we should AR again. I don't want to swamp the system with repeat ARs, but at the same time, if someone did re-rez something it does need to be re-reported. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolig Loon Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 13 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said: it would be nice if we had some sort of "average" time that it takes LL to deal with ARs. True, it would be nice. I suspect that any "average" would have a lot of "it depends" attached to it, though. ( It depends on ... how many other ARs are in the pipeline, how many of those are much higher priority issues, whether it's Friday afternoon at 4:00 .... ) Still, nice to know. However, suppose we knew that it takes a week for the average AR to rise to the top of the queue. Would that embolden some people to go ahead and violate the covenant deliberately, safe in the knowledge that they have a week's grace period before anything happens? Would more people build "temporary" skyboxes on their rooftops or set their security systems "temporarily" to send trespassers home after a 2 second warning? I don't know. There's something to be said for keeping people guessing, though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raspberry Crystal Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 11 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said: As to the re-rezzing of items that have been returned, it would be nice if we had some sort of "average" time that it takes LL to deal with ARs. At least then we'd know that after X amount of days it is likely that LL has see it -- and if it is not even a questionable offense (skybox below 2000m, etc..) - then we could guess that it might be a re-rez and thus we should AR again. I don't want to swamp the system with repeat ARs, but at the same time, if someone did re-rez something it does need to be re-reported. As most of us are in SL for fun and don't keep extensive admin records it's hard to know at times what has happened with regard to potential re-offending unless you live opposite the perpetrator and are online a lot. I know that I have seen a half built wonky low slung sky platform weeks and weeks after I reported it, surely that person didn't love that thing enough to re-rez.. and yet other similar things vanish within a few days, maybe not even as a result of an AR. I could understand the governance team not wanting to give away too much because it could open up chances for exploitation, but some sort of idea of timescales would be really handy, even if it is 'somewhere between two days and three weeks depending on the issue and backlog'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucille Babenco Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Raspberry Crystal said: As most of us are in SL for fun and don't keep extensive admin records it's hard to know at times what has happened with regard to potential re-offending unless you live opposite the perpetrator and are online a lot. I know that I have seen a half built wonky low slung sky platform weeks and weeks after I reported it, surely that person didn't love that thing enough to re-rez.. and yet other similar things vanish within a few days, maybe not even as a result of an AR. I could understand the governance team not wanting to give away too much because it could open up chances for exploitation, but some sort of idea of timescales would be really handy, even if it is 'somewhere between two days and three weeks depending on the issue and backlog'. Sometimes annoying object problems are solved simply by contacting their owner, and having a good and friendly conversation about the issue. There are people who simply make mistakes due to their ignorance, even could be items that were accidentally misplaced when they tried to rezz them into the homes, or simply they were forgotten . I agree with you that we can't AR in the first minute after seeing the wrong item/s, obviously a friendly solution avoids to fill and send an AR's, that should be the last option, if in a "reasonable time" they ignore their responsibility or answer you rudely or aggressively. But I also put myself in place of those who, after obtaining their ideal home, have to live there with the visual aggression clearly against the LH rules, and of an unfortunate aesthetic. As I said previously, my Linden Home isn't my main residence but I want to keep it as a pleasant place to visit with friends, and it’s disappointing if it’s going to turn into the classic mainland dumpster. Edited February 4, 2020 by Lucille Babenco 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nando Yip Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 ... someone is out of control ... 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nando Yip Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 ... another spot on the map of Bellisseria ... 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleMe Jewell Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Wow, just wow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pussycat Catnap Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 @Nando Yip I assume you AR'd those and nobody needs to go do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Alcott Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said: @Nando Yip I assume you AR'd those and nobody needs to go do that? the more the better .. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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