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Those crazy neighbors...

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1 hour ago, Fauve Aeon said:

Also ‘presentable and in-theme’ are both highly subjective terms.

Quoting from the 'lag' thread:

 

On 1/10/2020 at 11:31 PM, Abnor Mole said:

Often people will ask for clarity when really what they want is to find a loophole... like arguing that we say skyboxes have to be above 2000m but a platform doesn't count because it's technically not a box. Or what they want to do is find a case where they can argue the wording means something else that is common or reasonable is technically the same thing as the uncommon or unreasonable thing they wish to do. Therefore, if we allow the former we have to allow the latter or not allow either at all. Sometime people will simply argue the letter of the law in order to subvert the spirit of it. 

Sometimes ambiguity is used on purpose. We say things like "objects that extend outside of your parcel may be returned at any time and without notice". The word "may" allows us discretion in returning encroaching objects that are a problem while leaving those that are not. So someone upset because we returned their dock or grove of trees linked to a root prim 10 or 15m away on their parcel isn't likely to get much satisfaction from reporting every object on their neighbor's property that crosses the line by a few centimeters. 

In that above context it's also important to remember that sometimes people want clarity because they actually want clarity...

I understand what Abnor was saying there, but it's not the entire situation on these things.

The other side of this is not wanting to be uncertain about your actions.

 

BUT that said...

Something like 'presentable and in-theme' has to be subjective because it's something you need to view in 'gestalt' - looking at the overall scene and making a judgement call.

In law there's the 'reasonable person' metric. It's also highly subjective and shifts with the times and the situation. "How would a reasonable person judge this, given these facts and these laws?"

- which is where you start looking at the record of what's been done in the past to get an idea of what's save to do in the future; with an awareness that it is subject to change if the 'situation' or 'norms' evolve.

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

but in my opinion totally unnneeded and not wanted at Belli

Yes, in fact we are in 100% agreement. I would like to edit my original post to say "Better make a new obelisk for Bellisseria, that one isn't in theme. *She said sarcastically hoping nobody wouuld ever erect another obelisk or list of rules in Bellisseria"

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46 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

While I agree that things that are clearly out of theme should be reported, I don't want to feel like there is an HOA (Home Owners Association) board that is continually snooping around nit-picking about every little thing they think might be 'out of place'.  I think people need to feel free to use some creativity in their decor, staying within a broad, general interpretation of the theme, without having to worry that their house will be the focus of comments here.

biggest concerns are the platforms  sky boxes way below the required height placement. I know when i do my yard or an addon  i am keenly aware of is it in theme and good taste and add to the beauty of the already wonderful parcel the team and moles created.

I am all for creativivity that compliments the beauty that has been made by the team and moles.    SO  the big question is  will the creativity one is doing  detract from  and ruin the creative work that the team and moles accomplished  or will it enhance  the parcel .

I doubt anyone will complain about mismatched flowers or  placement of lawn chairs   just the over the top MAJOR   cringe worthy stuff people are concerned about  

I think a good way to look at it is  will what ever i am making or doing  with this parcel  enchance this property and make the team and moles say  it is beautiful or will it make them sad and feel all their hard work was wasted.

And again if one is not sure about something  you have support chat , 

Edited by roseelvira
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14 minutes ago, roseelvira said:

biggest concerns are the platforms  sky boxes way below the required height placement. I know when i do my yard or an addon  i am keenly aware of is it in theme and good taste and add to the beauty of the already wonderful parcel the team and moles created.

I agree that skyboxes and platforms below the required height placement is a major concern, and those should clearly be reported.

15 minutes ago, roseelvira said:

I doubt anyone will complain about mismatched flowers or  placement of lawn chairs   just the over the top MAJOR   cringe worthy stuff people are concerned about

While I would hope no one will actually file complaints about mismatched flowers or placement of lawn chairs, there have been some comments in this thread that have veered towards that type of criticism - even if it's just complaining about it here in this thread, that just doesn't sit well with me.  

(And yes I know I don't need to read this thread if the content in it starts to bother me).

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38 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

I think people need to feel free to use some creativity in their decor, staying within a broad, general interpretation of the theme, without having to worry that their house will be the focus of comments here.

That's the bottom line, and I'm pretty sure that's what the Lindens had in mind by leaving some leeway in their wording: "... you may customize it by adding tasteful extensions, as long as they are compatible with the theme and style of the house."  Be sensitive of your neighbors as you decorate, and be tolerant of your quirky neighbors' tastes.  It isn't all one-way, and there's plenty of gray room for compromise.

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As  time goes on we will see  how this goes.  My hope  as i have stated a few times is that people remember that the beautiful parcels were created by the teams and moles .   A way to honor all the hard work , dedication and love they continue to put into making  sl amazing   is  what we do with  the blessing of the beautiful parcels homes... let us  show that we respect and appreciate all the work time dedication and love they put into every home ,boat, camper, flower , etc  by  our stewardship of how we caretake our parcels .   

  I am sure  we will all do wonderful beautiful  amazing things  and make  the teams and moles  and the lindens and Patch proud!!!

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My newest neighbor, who apparently believes that parcel boundaries do not apply to them - half of the large boat is outside the parcel boundaries.

image.thumb.png.e0943c0e15b37c9f92a84c8923f6071d.png

 

 

And this, back behind me, I just don't understand.  

image.thumb.png.e8db73fcdf8ff9c733daa6de4dbadaec.png

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17 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

And this, back behind me, I just don't understand.  

And that is an example of why people keep moving .  Similar to why i moved and have qualms about ever going to a house boat again. I guess think of it as a picasso painting ,,,. if they are new maybe im them and go shopping w them .     

If they are well seasoned ,,,,been in sl for a while ,,,,  only you can do what is right for you ,,,, hugs ,hugs , hugs ,,, sharing my carton of icecream w you 

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As I looked around, really paying attention to the tops of the houseboats, I was seeing a lot of things adding to the height.  Out of curiosity, since I couldn't believe that everyone was violating covenant or that there were really that many creators selling add-ons that violated covenant, I rezzed each houseboat with grid scale prims next to them, to see where the 15m mark was for each in relation to the top of the houseboats.  I was actually quite surprised at how much add-on room there is.   In the pictures below, the verticals are just typical 10m grid prims, 2 stacked directly atop each other.  There is then a grid panel laying horizontal to mark the 15m spot.  Finally another horizontal grid prim moved such that it roughly touches the top of the boat.  The height check was based on the top of the water level.

Based on the measurements, the vast majority of things that I thought were probably too high, very likely are not.

Summary of measurement findings:
Barnacle - This is actually the tallest, measuring a bit over 11m, giving just under 4m for building
Evening Start - Roughly 9m, giving 6m for building
Wallower - Top is a roughly 10.5m, leaving 4.5m for building
Windlass - Top is not quite 9.5m, leaving about 5.5m for building

 

Barnacle

771419846_Topmeasuring-Barnacle.thumb.JPG.7e013f5ba9a87ffcbca7bdeded44e17e.JPG

 

Evening Star

1732273899_Topmeasuring-EveningStar.thumb.JPG.2a2b881032ae35431b0c51eadcf9cb6e.JPG

 

Wallower

544387140_Topmeasuring-Wallower.thumb.JPG.590d5436ddef0ad765f3ece6f296e8c9.JPG

 

Windlass

2058336950_Topmeasuring-Windlass.thumb.JPG.4e41f3121d8ebaeb0bfc1770ceb062f9.JPG

 

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In continuing the observations, I would have thought that the add-on pictured below is quite a bit over the 15m mark, from first glance.  While it is over the limit, the 15m mark comes in roughly the middle of the blue roof trim.  Given that, I wouldn't bother reporting it, and if someone did, I could easily see LL letting that one slide.

Realization - my perspective on height is often wrong.

image.thumb.png.7b44303c83407d0ea92c20d2f5e6a668.png

 

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5 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

In continuing the observations, I would have thought that the add-on pictured below is quite a bit over the 15m mark, from first glance.  While it is over the limit, the 15m mark comes in roughly the middle of the blue roof trim.  Given that, I wouldn't bother reporting it, and if someone did, I could easily see LL letting that one slide.

Realization - my perspective on height is often wrong.

image.thumb.png.7b44303c83407d0ea92c20d2f5e6a668.png

 

While technically "legal" in one sense, it's still quite inconsiderate of your neighbors because a huge block like that on top of the standard roof height will completely block the view for everyone around you.

So.... like, before you plop some view-destroying monstrosity on "your" parcel, maybe ask yourself whether you're screwing up the experience for all your neighbors? I mean... Sheesh.

Edited by Fushichou Mfume
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For myself, I'd err on the side of "if my neighbors don't want to see this, how much am I asking them to de render?" IE: a boat is one object... a three story add on with a ton of furniture... that is an entirely different story. Even there tho... not everyone uses browsers that have a de render function, so I lean toward less is more with add ons. In theme is a bigger pet peeve of mine tho. Still, for the most part, I de render & get on with my life unless something just tramples the covenant.

Edited by Kitten Kaos
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The Moles and Lindens also love to see the ingenuity and creativeness that residents are coming up with that they never considered. Bellisseria doesn’t have to be a continent of Stepford neighborhoods. 

Also, I think I’ll place one of Abnor’s obelisks at each of my parcels tomorrow and make each of them 15.00001 meters tall.

And full-bright.

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On 1/10/2020 at 10:35 PM, Rolig Loon said:

I doubt that any of us know how many Lindens there are in the Governance team or how many ARs they have to process daily.  

The last time I asked, which was Novemberish last year, there were 5.  Just 5.  For the ARs and this forum.

How many ARs?  I didn't ask.

Edited by Garnet Psaltery

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5 hours ago, moirakathleen said:

I think people need to feel free to use some creativity in their decor, staying within a broad, general interpretation of the theme, without having to worry that their house will be the focus of comments here.

I think generally the posts in this thread have been of things that were either too extreme and got reported, or that we KNEW were within the rules, but still felt needed a little eye-rolling.

One thing a thread like this is good for is for finding out whether or not your own opinions of what is reasonable matches that of 'the broader community'.

Another thing it's good for is "the lols" when we see somebody who is basically doing the housing decor version of wearing Disco threads to the office... As long as we're nice about it and don't take the 'lols' seriously...

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2 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

And this, back behind me, I just don't understand.  

image.thumb.png.e8db73fcdf8ff9c733daa6de4dbadaec.png

Some people just insist on getting a type of house they really really really don't want...

This person really needs to move to a trad, camper, or vic...

I understood people who did this back when houses were hard to get... I didn't like it... but I got where they were coming from... but now it's pretty easy... and if you really really really HATE water... don't stay on it...

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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31 minutes ago, Fushichou Mfume said:

While technically "legal" in one sense, it's still quite inconsiderate of your neighbors because a huge block like that on top of the standard roof height will completely block the view for everyone around you.

So.... like, before you plop some view-destroying monstrosity on "your" parcel, maybe ask yourself whether you're screwing up the experience for all your neighbors? I mean... Sheesh.

Actually it was technically NOT legal... and the poster was saying they'd give it slack anyway...

I feel I'd want to error on the other side of things. The last thing I think folks want to see is parcel sized boxes all over every build that are 15m high... and this... is even more than 15m. I personally feel that a rule of 15m shouldn't mean "block out the universe up to 15m" but rather "if you've got a flagpole or something else kinda minor... it's cool as long as it's not over 15m"...

ie... I agree with your conclusion... just wanted to note that actually, the item in question was in violation.

 

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2 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

My newest neighbor, who apparently believes that parcel boundaries do not apply to them - half of the large boat is outside the parcel boundaries.

image.thumb.png.e0943c0e15b37c9f92a84c8923f6071d.png

Yeah I'm quoting the same post twice to make a different comment. :)

I used to wonder why anyone would like the rectangle houseboats until I got me a neighbor like this one, who like me is on a square plot.

Some people like big boats...

They need those rectangles to fit it in parcel.

I don't know how the lindens would rule on this one, not even sure how I would if I were a linden... I guess it depends on what those boat is poking out into... like to the right of this image is there another boat or open sea? Is it blocking access OR a view?

I still think this person could move that boat to the dock edge, and fit it in, with the use of a different house (or is this the house with the most space... I forget)...

But whatever...

I'm now wondering how high that flag is... and what it's a flag of... on my own plot I put a lot of political signage - but it is all INSIDE the house where you have to cam in to be offended that I'm some kinda lefty libtard... if you're just walking by... my perspective is I won't blare my signage if you don't... :P

 

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29 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

I don't know how the lindens would rule on this one, not even sure how I would if I were a linden... I guess it depends on what those boat is poking out into... like to the right of this image is there another boat or open sea? Is it blocking access OR a view?

I still think this person could move that boat to the dock edge, and fit it in, with the use of a different house (or is this the house with the most space... I forget)...

But whatever...

I'm now wondering how high that flag is... and what it's a flag of... on my own plot I put a lot of political signage - but it is all INSIDE the house where you have to cam in to be offended that I'm some kinda lefty libtard... if you're just walking by... my perspective is I won't blare my signage if you don't... :P

The boat is pretty much pointing to open sea.  The nearest houseboat directly in front of the boat is almost 1/2 region away, so the boat is definitely not blocking anything that might want to move around out there.  This one bothers me because they could have made it work up next to the dock, whereas they chose to have just under  HALF of the boat outside of their property.  There is 11m of boat outside the parcel boundary.

The flag is for the SL Surfing Association.  I had to edit it to find out, as it is only displaying a picture and I didn't recognize it.

 

 

40 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

I feel I'd want to error on the other side of things. The last thing I think folks want to see is parcel sized boxes all over every build that are 15m high... and this... is even more than 15m. I personally feel that a rule of 15m shouldn't mean "block out the universe up to 15m" but rather "if you've got a flagpole or something else kinda minor... it's cool as long as it's not over 15m"...

While I agree with this, for the most part, I'm not so sure LL would actually do anything about this particular case.  If it was located such that it messed with my view, then I might have a less lenient attitude towards it.  In that case, I might go ahead and AR it to and see what happens, but I truly wouldn't expect anything.

For stuff that is not right near me impacting my views or impacting me maneuvering around the waters, I tend to AR the more super blatant violations.  Otherwise, I feel like all I'd be doing is sending ARs.

 

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4 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

In continuing the observations, I would have thought that the add-on pictured below is quite a bit over the 15m mark, from first glance.  While it is over the limit, the 15m mark comes in roughly the middle of the blue roof trim.  Given that, I wouldn't bother reporting it, and if someone did, I could easily see LL letting that one slide.

Realization - my perspective on height is often wrong.

image.thumb.png.7b44303c83407d0ea92c20d2f5e6a668.png

 

and still... this would in my perspective be reportable, it's ruining the theme.
I think most add on items on houseboats should only be allowed at the inside, Trads and Victs have a bit more "room " for that, Campers also none .. if you want more you'll really have to move to another option where you dó have the freedom to do so.
 

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9 hours ago, moirakathleen said:

Regarding the horses in back yards and the Victorians, that is highly subjective as to being in theme, because at the time those styles of houses were originally built, they probably did have a carriage house and horses.  It depends I think on whether the parcel owner is living in modern times in a restored house, or is imagining living back in the 1800's.  I don't know if you can say that one is more 'in theme' than the other, as the theme doesn't specify a time period to officially be observed. All the questions about where to find 'victorian furniture' and 'victorian plants' that I've seen here in the forums don't help to clarify the time period for the theme either, or the time period that various people are decorating to. 

While I agree that things that are clearly out of theme should be reported, I don't want to feel like there is an HOA (Home Owners Association) board that is continually snooping around nit-picking about every little thing they think might be 'out of place'.  I think people need to feel free to use some creativity in their decor, staying within a broad, general interpretation of the theme, without having to worry that their house will be the focus of comments here.

That’s why I used that example, to highlight the highly subjective part I referred to. I don’t mind the horse things as long as they feel like they match or coordinate with the style/theme. But the streets and infrastructure are clearly modern so it really could go either way, if debated. 

The only thing I’ve even felt like reporting since I moved to Bellisseria was the completely snowed under plot/house with full bright and a dozen active snow rezzers. And yep, I posted a pix here to see what others thought first too. And at Christmas, when the decor bug bites strongly, I’m just going ‘on vacation’ every year to the beach lots...I’ve already decided for myself.  I understand that people really enjoy It, but at the same time, I’m super glad for the clearly dated limits on holiday decor. That way we are all on the same page. 
 

edit: I actually expected the funky and odd houseboat build-ups and build-outs, I’ve been around Sausalito, Alameda, Mission Creek...it’s not that unusual in these places to see it. 

Edited by Fauve Aeon
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6 hours ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

The last time I asked, which was Novemberish last year, there were 5.  Just 5.  For the ARs and this forum.

How many ARs?  I didn't ask.

That doesn't sound like enough. If covenanted Bellisseria is a central plank of the SL business model moving forward a few extra bods available, at least during this expansion phase seems desirable.

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15 minutes ago, Raspberry Crystal said:

That doesn't sound like enough. If covenanted Bellisseria is a central plank of the SL business model moving forward a few extra bods available, at least during this expansion phase seems desirable.

I think it can be enough, even less would do, but only when it's a dedicated team, not also have to run after building regions, create new ideas and development.
The impression i have, since a few years already, that some jobs merged into one. Premium support collapsed as one of the first, till live chat was rised. But still... for a userbase online between 30 and 50K at any time, it's for many a serious question why support isn't around 24/7.
Same as the forums.. there were remarks in the past by Lindens that forum monitoring took full time people.. this is of course unbelievable these days when moderation can take up to more than one or two days except in cases some heads are to be chopped off.

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12 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

In continuing the observations, I would have thought that the add-on pictured below is quite a bit over the 15m mark, from first glance.  While it is over the limit, the 15m mark comes in roughly the middle of the blue roof trim.  Given that, I wouldn't bother reporting it, and if someone did, I could easily see LL letting that one slide.

Realization - my perspective on height is often wrong.

image.thumb.png.7b44303c83407d0ea92c20d2f5e6a668.png

 

After this was quoted a few times, I noticed that they did not use the matching texture on the outside of the addition.  The texture is in the texture pack.  I wonder if they don't know about the creation pack.  Based on some questions here in the forums, even though it is on the house rez menu, many don't seem to know it is there or what it is.

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2 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

After this was quoted a few times, I noticed that they did not use the matching texture on the outside of the addition.  The texture is in the texture pack.  I wonder if they don't know about the creation pack.

One thing that really bothers me on the texture kit is that the textures are NOT the same UUIDs as the ones the moles used in building.

Put one of them on a prim, next to a house that uses it... log out... log back in...  if you pay attention the two items will not appear at the same time... they look the same... but they're different files...

So it doesn't actually help caching wise... to be using the matching texture... in fact it makes lag worse...

 

Look closely:

4f9ca1132a4a8fa2be4f061ffd34d8be.jpg

The floor is not yet rezzed, the "same" texture on a prim above it has, because it's not actually the same texture...

Once the two different but identially looking textures rez:

c5e35422da1484b4d9c148ca582bf18c.png

 

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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