Election advice

[Tolya Ugajin]

29 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

The difference is that it doesn't matter a bent cent who runs the UK to most Americans.

There's a huge population that doesn't know what the UK is.

There's a huge population that doesn't know what state Oklahoma City is in.

There's a huge, red-hatted population that "don't care" and resents and are skeered by anything not 'merkin, which apparently includes Puerto Rico.

That being said, and as much as I think about migrating across the northern border, it isn't like the USA has the monopoly on stupid. There's lots of stupid going around. And Brexit? Let's see, there was a run on "what it means" on Google in the UK AFTER the original vote. So, yeah, lots of stupid everywhere.

:::goes back to eating popcorn:::

As an American, I can reluctantly confirm that the majority is wholly ignorant of anything that hasn't shown up on their "Smart"phone in the last 5 hours.

[Tolya Ugajin]

34 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

There's a huge, red-hatted population that "don't care" and resents and are skeered by anything not 'merkin, which apparently includes Puerto Rico.

 

Red hats like mine?

 

[Lindal Kidd]

This is sliding downhill fast.  Before we get locked, let me just say to all my SL friends who happen to be residents of the UK:

This American wishes all of you health, happiness and prosperity, no matter which side of the political debate you happen to be on.  We've got similar problems over here...and by "problems" I don't mean that this party or that party is in power, or has done this or that thing.  I mean the intense, unreasoning hatred of "the other side", by both sides.

And thank you for the history lesson on where the terms "Whig" and "Tory" came from!  I always wondered, and my high school history teacher never explained it.

[Seicher Rae]

13 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Red hats like mine?

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Seicher Rae
to ensure this comment is slapped by LL and IBTL

[Beth Macbain]

37 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

The difference is that it doesn't matter a bent cent who runs the UK to most Americans.

There's a huge population that doesn't know what the UK is.

There's a huge population that doesn't know what state Oklahoma City is in.

There's a huge, red-hatted population that "don't care" and resents and are skeered by anything not 'merkin, which apparently includes Puerto Rico.

That being said, and as much as I think about migrating across the northern border, it isn't like the USA has the monopoly on stupid. There's lots of stupid going around. And Brexit? Let's see, there was a run on "what it means" on Google in the UK AFTER the original vote. So, yeah, lots of stupid everywhere.

:::goes back to eating popcorn:::

And all these things are a YUGE problem, aren't they? I understand that people across the world have varying degrees of intelligence, and that's not a bad thing. Intelligence also varies when it comes to what kind of intelligence. Growing up in a very small town in Kentucky, I knew a lot of people who had very limited education. People that were functionally illiterate were common. However, many of those people without "book smarts" were highly intelligent and had far deeper understanding of many things than I could never grasp. Agriculture, animal husbandry, mechanics, all sorts of trades handed down from generation to generation, as well as just innate human knowledge. 

Having said that, though, the things you mention above are horrifying to me. First, because our education system is just terrible and it's true that a lot of kids pass all the tests and move from grade to grade but still learn nothing. Secondly, willful ignorance enrages me. It's okay to not know things, but freaking be willing to learn. There is a certain political party here in the states that has managed to convince their constituents that being educated is bad. Elitist. They've been taught that ignorance is normal and they should just do as they're told even if it's demonstrably simple to show them how doing what that particular party tells them is, in fact, horrible for them. 

... hands you another bowl of popcorn ... 🍿

[Beth Macbain]

3 hours ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

What an odd coincidence.  My "Johnson" is named Rudolph.

"Rudolph the red-hosed johnson, had a very shiny hose, and if you ever saw it, you would even say it grows..."

[Janet Voxel]

Oh man this is getting good!!

 

[Beth Macbain]

Compared to many other threads, I'm just not seeing the tension in this one that others are seeing.

Not all discussions with differing opinions are fights. 

[Seicher Rae]

1 minute ago, Beth Macbain said:

And all these things are a YUGE problem, aren't they? I understand that people across the world have varying degrees of intelligence, and that's not a bad thing. Intelligence also varies when it comes to what kind of intelligence. Growing up in a very small town in Kentucky, I knew a lot of people who had very limited education. People that were functionally illiterate were common. However, many of those people without "book smarts" were highly intelligent and had far deeper understanding of many things than I could never grasp. Agriculture, animal husbandry, mechanics, all sorts of trades handed down from generation to generation, as well as just innate human knowledge. 

Having said that, though, the things you mention above are horrifying to me. First, because our education system is just terrible and it's true that a lot of kids pass all the tests and move from grade to grade but still learn nothing. Secondly, willful ignorance enrages me. It's okay to not know things, but freaking be willing to learn. There is a certain political party here in the states that has managed to convince their constituents that being educated is bad. Elitist. They've been taught that ignorance is normal and they should just do as they're told even if it's demonstrably simple to show them how doing what that particular party tells them is, in fact, horrible for them. 

... hands you another bowl of popcorn ... 🍿

I lived in very SE Kentucky for a while, not too far from The Dukes of Hazzard. And yes, there is a big difference between intelligence and book learning. But I have to say, I saw an inordinate amount of wilful ignorance there, and the voting record bears that out. They routinely vote against their obvious self interest. I think "salt of the earth" types get venerated as some kind of sweet ideal, where in reality they just aren't. I've lived in many places in the USA and have travelled through Europe, and I have met the same wilfully ignorant in all places, of all educational backgrounds.

Have I mentioned I'm a misanthrope?

 

 

[Lindal Kidd]

" ...They've been taught that ignorance is normal and they should just do as they're told even if it's demonstrably simple to show them how doing what that particular party tells them is, in fact, horrible for them. "

I know you are pointing at Republicans here, and specifically at Trump's "MAGA" base.  But this applies equally to Democrats.  I came across a piece yesterday in which a group of students all were in favor of "Medicare for All"...until they learned that it would remove people's choices, eliminate a million jobs, and cost them, as taxpayers, about 20% of their income.  Now, we can debate whether MfA would in fact have these downsides, but the point is, the students were getting a very biased view up to that point.  It is not in either party's interests to give people the facts, and they aren't doing it.

[Beth Macbain]

3 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

I think "salt of the earth" types get venerated as some kind of sweet ideal, where in reality they just aren't.

When I said "many" I really should have said "some". There is a very good reason I don't live there anymore. The bigotry, racism, hypocrisy, willful stupidity, misogyny, etc., sent me running as soon as I could get out, and I do not go back. The ashes of my parents and brothers are scattered in a beautiful creek near there, and when I go to visit I add another 30 minutes to the journey just to avoid driving through that awful little town. 

[Seicher Rae]

6 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

" ...They've been taught that ignorance is normal and they should just do as they're told even if it's demonstrably simple to show them how doing what that particular party tells them is, in fact, horrible for them. "

I know you are pointing at Republicans here, and specifically at Trump's "MAGA" base.  But this applies equally to Democrats.  I came across a piece yesterday in which a group of students all were in favor of "Medicare for All"...until they learned that it would remove people's choices, eliminate a million jobs, and cost them, as taxpayers, about 20% of their income.  Now, we can debate whether MfA would in fact have these downsides, but the point is, the students were getting a very biased view up to that point.  It is not in either party's interests to give people the facts, and they aren't doing it.

"Stupidity (and wilful ignorance) is an equal opportunity employer." -- Misanthropes Anonymous™ Founder, SR

[Janet Voxel]

The dailywire is a right wing media outlet. Ben Shapiro’s association with it should make anyone steer clear.

[Cindy Evanier]

44 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Compared to many other threads, I'm just not seeing the tension in this one that others are seeing.

Not all discussions with differing opinions are fights. 

Someone hasn't arrived yet.  Give it time

[Tolya Ugajin]

2 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

The dailywire is a right wing media outlet. Ben Shapiro’s association with it should make anyone steer clear.

Why?  Because he's a devout Jew who has been routinely called anti-Semitic?  Or because he's routinely criticized the "alt-Right" while himself being called a Nazi?  Because of his insistence on relying on facts over feelings?  Or because he shreds pretty much anyone who debates him, to the extent that even when he offers such giants of the liberal establishment as AOC $10K to debate a position they decline?

The biggest problem in the US right now is that both sides are so entrenched in their self-righteous belief in their own infallibility that they dismiss out of hand what the other has to say.  That's the worst kind of willful ignorance I know.

[Lindal Kidd]

Because it seemed appropriate.

[Janet Voxel]

5 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Why?  Because he's a devout Jew who has been routinely called anti-Semitic?  Or because he's routinely criticized the "alt-Right" while himself being called a Nazi?  Because of his insistence on relying on facts over feelings?  Or because he shreds pretty much anyone who debates him, to the extent that even when he offers such giants of the liberal establishment as AOC $10K to debate a position they decline?

The biggest problem in the US right now is that both sides are so entrenched in their self-righteous belief in their own infallibility that they dismiss out of hand what the other has to say.  That's the worst kind of willful ignorance I know.

No, none of those things. It’s because he doesn’t deal in facts. The source of an article should always be considered.

This is why political discussions are banned.

[Lyssa Greymoon]

7 minutes ago, Tolya Ugajin said:

Why?  Because he's a devout Jew who has been routinely called anti-Semitic?  Or because he's routinely criticized the "alt-Right" while himself being called a Nazi?  Because of his insistence on relying on facts over feelings?  Or because he shreds pretty much anyone who debates him, to the extent that even when he offers such giants of the liberal establishment as AOC $10K to debate a position they decline?

The biggest problem in the US right now is that both sides are so entrenched in their self-righteous belief in their own infallibility that they dismiss out of hand what the other has to say.  That's the worst kind of willful ignorance I know.

Because he's a fast talking con man whose debating skills extend as far as beating up unprepared college kids, and he uses those mad skillz to shill for very bad people.

[Janet Voxel]

12 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

Because he's a fast talking con man whose debating skills extend as far as beating up unprepared college kids, and he uses those mad skillz to shill for very bad people.

I mean really, they call the college students “orange cup” and “black backpack”.

Just consider your sources. That’s what critical thinkers do.

[Selene Gregoire]

2 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

The difference is that it doesn't matter a bent cent who runs the UK to most Americans.

There's a huge population that doesn't know what the UK is.

There's a huge population that doesn't know what state Oklahoma City is in.

There's a huge, red-hatted population that "don't care" and resents and are skeered by anything not 'merkin, which apparently includes Puerto Rico.

That being said, and as much as I think about migrating across the northern border, it isn't like the USA has the monopoly on stupid. There's lots of stupid going around. And Brexit? Let's see, there was a run on "what it means" on Google in the UK AFTER the original vote. So, yeah, lots of stupid everywhere.

:::goes back to eating popcorn:::

That's not stupidity. It's ignorance. Ignorance, even willful ignorance, can be fixed. Stupid can't be fixed.

[Seicher Rae]

1 minute ago, Selene Gregoire said:

That's not stupidity. It's ignorance. Ignorance, even willful ignorance, can be fixed. Stupid can't be fixed.

It's both.

[Tolya Ugajin]

33 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

Because he's a fast talking con man whose debating skills extend as far as beating up unprepared college kids, and he uses those mad skillz to shill for very bad people.

22 minutes ago, janetosilio said:

Just consider your sources. That’s what critical thinkers do.

Can you send me a link to where he "beat up" a college kid?  I mean, you're using a term that implies physical assault, so I assume that, rather than engaging in intentionally hyperbolic language to errrr rely on emotion to carry your point, you have video of these assaults.

You seem to have ignored the part where he routinely offers to debate people who are not "unprepared college kids" - and they decline because they know they will lose.  He routinely has people from the other side of the aisle on his show to debate, and they do so civilly and rationally.

That's what REAL critical thinkers do.

 

[Selene Gregoire]

9 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

It's both.

 

The adjective ignorant describes someone who is lacking knowledge or understanding of a subject. If you are ignorant of a subject, you have little, if any, knowledge about it. Stupid is another adjective; it means lacking in mental capacity.

An ignorant person can usually seek additional knowledge to become less ignorant.

The point is one can be "cured", the other can not. Most of the people you speak of are willfully ignorant, not stupid. They're afraid to change because they know they will find out they have been wrong all along.

[Ceka Cianci]

I'm just going to get my dismount in before it's too late..

Edited December 13, 2019 by Ceka Cianci

[Seicher Rae]

@Selene Gregoire thanks for the out-of-the-blue mansplaining.

I'm very confused by your need to be aggressively pedantic. Carry on.

ETA: Yeah, that kind of torqued me off. What makes you think I do not know the difference between stupid and ignorant? Hm? What have I said that would indicate I don't? That I said it was both stupid and ignorant? It is both. That I didn't stand up and applaud your original correction as incredible insight? Back off.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Seicher Rae