Do you have any preferred pronouns?

[Tolya Ugajin]

On 12/12/2019 at 8:52 AM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

As for the larger political question surrounding pronouns, I don't think we need laws or rules to enforce the use of preferred pronouns (nor do I know of anywhere in RL where this is in fact the case),

California SB 219, 1439.51. (a) (5) Willfully and repeatedly fail to use a resident’s preferred name or pronouns after being clearly informed of the preferred name or pronouns.

1439.54. A violation of this chapter shall be treated as a violation under Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 1250), Chapter 2.4 (commencing with Section 1417), or Chapter 3.2 (commencing with Section 1569).  - This means a fine of up to $1000 or a year in jail

New York City has a similar regulation, but the punishments are much more severe.  The Commission can impose civil penalties up to $125,000 for violations, and up to $250,000 for violations that are the result of willful, wanton, or malicious conduct.  I'm not a lawyer so it's unclear to me if this would be imposed against the facility or the individual offender.

There are doubtless more - these were all I could find with the 5 minutes on Google I allowed myself for research.

Those defending these laws claim that it wouldn't be enforced that way, or the legal bar would be very high, but, since it's the state enforcing it on fines, and the state has unlimited legal resources relative to a defendant, that's a pretty hollow claim.

That said, I agree that if someone who is obviously a biologically "Bob" wishes to be identified as "Isabella" and asks you to use "her/she", then you're pretty much a j*ck*ss if you refuse, but Isabella needs to understand that when looking at someone with a huge Adam's apple and 3 days of stubble on their cheeks, it's pretty easy to call them "his/he" out of reflex.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

They are the same; Gender is the written form. Sex signifies man or women; boy or girl, Gender is male or female. This is how I learned the definitions of the word. Though the word sex also references copulation, its primary definition has always been the "binary gender" of the person (see what I did there ) - Gender was used primarily in written publications to avoid ambiguity that can come with the word sex.

Here's the etymology: https://www.etymonline.com/word/gender

In short: "gender" is usually singular and "sex" is usually plural.

I can use a dictionary too. The following are "real things":

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender-fluid

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nonbinary (Definition C)

 

 

[NevaehHeartstrings]

Please refer to me as  "Attack Helicopter"

 

[Maitimo]

3 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

Absolutely it is. If one has foreknowledge of that preference.

@Alyona Su I have a hypothetical but serious question for you.

Suppose one of your RL friends introduces you to a person who uses the name "Carol". Carol admits to you personally that she was born with male genitalia and her birth certificate says "male". But Carol fully identifies as female, dresses entirely feminine and tells you that she prefers she/her pronouns. Carol wants gender reassignment surgery and hormone therapy but cannot access it because of financial/political/legal constraints. As a result of this, Carol still has a somewhat masculine appearance and voice.

You go away and talk about Carol with your other RL friends. Do you refer to Carol as "he" or "she"?

Edited December 13, 2019 by Matty Luminos

[LexxiXhan]

7 minutes ago, NevaehHeartstrings said:

Please refer to me as  "Attack Helicopter"

 

Ahh, the one joke that's been circulating among teenage boys since pre-2010..

[Maitimo]

8 minutes ago, NevaehHeartstrings said:

Please refer to me as  "Attack Helicopter"

 

Specifically, I presume, the Apache A-10.

They don't call it "ugly but well-hung" for nothing.

 

[Fauve Aeon]

2 minutes ago, NevaehHeartstrings said:

Please refer to me as  "Attack Helicopter"

Ding. I was waiting for this to come. It was a full page later than I expected. But it’s still a reductio ad absurdum sort of logical fallacy.

(and a strong signal of thread decay no matter how it is meant or taken, IMO.)

[Fauve Aeon]

Is there something similar to Godwin’s Law but for the evocation of 4chan memes? Just asking.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Fauve Aeon

[NevaehHeartstrings]

4 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

Specifically, I presume, the Apache A-10.

They don't call it "ugly but well-hung" for nothing.

 

Something with more action 😃

 

[Alyona Su]

51 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I can use a dictionary too. The following are "real things":

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender-fluid

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nonbinary (Definition C)

 

 

A dictionary gives the definition of a word; an etymology is the history of a word.

44 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

@Alyona Su I have a hypothetical but serious question for you.

Suppose one of your RL friends introduces you to a person who uses the name "Carol". Carol admits to you personally that she was born with male genitalia and her birth certificate says "male". But Carol fully identifies as female, dresses entirely feminine and tells you that she prefers she/her pronouns. Carol wants gender reassignment surgery and hormone therapy but cannot access it because of financial/political/legal constraints. As a result of this, Carol still has a somewhat masculine appearance and voice.

You go away and talk about Carol with your other RL friends. Do you refer to Carol as "he" or "she"?

I would refer to them and they. Because I know their preference for it, unless they asked me to be discreet about it, in which case they may ask me to refer to them as "she"; I will follow their request. As is always the case, it all depends on context, scenario, and so many other variable on a case-by-case basis. My general position is if I do not know of this preference, then I cannot be expected to follow it. Secondarily, if it comes up in a third party discussion "So and so says they prefer this pronoun" - is it fair to expect anyone to immediately shift mental gears and adopt that immediately? Not because they refuse to, but because they are being asked to change a language rule they've used all their lives. So is it not fair to give them a little time to get that mental gear properly shifted into the new mode?

Here is what I suspect people are missing in my commentary: Perhaps people are reading my words as a description of my personal purviews, where I am actually trying to speak in general terms, speaking of how many others may perceive this subject in a general sense or "group thinking". Some would call it "being the Devil's advocate" - but that is not my intent (in terms of intentionally designed to create debate). I am just trying to have a *discussion* on the merits thereof and how *many* may or may not feel about it, but people are reading my words as though they are my personal position on the subject. This is why I ask that you (and it's almost sad that I must explain this is a general "you" as in you, the reader, not you Matty) - to please try to put my words into context of the entire message. I do try to write clearly on my meanings, but I suspect and presume that sometimes the very ideas I speak on get lost in any knee-jerk (colloquial term, not meant literally) reaction so some parts of it before understanding the full thing.

I get it about being abused, malice and all the rest. It's a sad thing that racism and gender, and so many other biases still exist. We all know it, we all see it or hear of it and the rest. I am on the majority's side here. What I am trying to communicate is that this is not a cut-and-dry subject, which is why I linked to the Time article because they express that in a very well-written way.

The problem with written communication is that it can take a lot of words to be clear about anything and when people see a lot of words they tend to skim, rather than peruse.

Now with all that said, and my answer to Matty's question: I am still saying the same thing I have been saying all along. Anyone who goes back to carefully read and comprehend my words will see this.

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Alyona Su]

I would like to add a little something that I hope relates somewhat, but more of a general thing:

I tend to break things down into subjective" categories" and respond to each separately, and individually: So if I see something like "They prefer associating themselves with X because Y will hurt their feelings and is insulting..." - I tend to break that statement down into separate subjects and right or wrong, which if the latter, I do apologize, like so:

I agree: They should be addressed by X and not Y because it's their preference' (Specifically the question of X and Y)

I disagree that being taking anything as an insult is a reason to change how you speak, unless it is in response to a statement intended to evoke that response. (Anything that is taken as an offense, not necessarily related specifically to the X and Y question.)

So if my diatribe make it confusing to understand my actual position, then I'll try harder to simplify my commentary.

It is my sucky RL job of having to supposed to be a professional communicator where it's not always discussion-based, but informational-based (usually one-way communication.) Ugh.

It's okay to plonk me for this. really, I don't mind and I try to never take anything personally here.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Alyona Su

[LexxiXhan]

24 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

My general position is if I do not know of this preference, then I cannot be expected to follow it.

Communication is a wonderful thing.

[LexxiXhan]

1 minute ago, Alyona Su said:

So if my diatribe make it confusing to understand my actual position, then I'll try harder to simplify my commentary.

Thanks, do that. Because it's all just too confusing for us poor transes who haven't been over these issues day in day out for years and definitely aren't constantly exhausted from repeatedly having to explain ourselves and justify our existence again and again to appease the minor discomforts of those who can't bring themselves to acknowledge our humanity.

[Amina Sopwith]

11 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

It is my sucky RL job of having to supposed to be a professional communicator

It is?

[Love Zhaoying]

45 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

A dictionary gives the definition of a word; an etymology is the history of a word.

But you were using the etymology to argue that gender and sex are the same. And that there's only binary. My definitions say otherwise.

p.s. I knew that already so..totally miss why you argue as you do.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Love Zhaoying

[Akane Nacht]

Use what comes natural. 

Where I live there are a lot of native Mandarin/Hokkien/Teochew speakers. "He/She" gets mixed up quite a lot in English conversation (I've no idea why, linguistically, as my knowledge of Chinese is scant) so it doesn't bother me if they goof up.