Do you have any preferred pronouns?

[Alyona Su]

37 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

I don't know that I'd call it silliness

If I may clarify: The "silliness" is in reference to the weight the debate is given: molehill into mountain status. Not the debate itself. I just feel some may be taking it a lot more seriously than is necessary. I agree with respectfulness, though I will not apologize for offending someone that takes offense where none is intentionally given, either. I am for a pragmatic approach.

33 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It matters because this isn't about "not offending" someone, or hurting their feelings, or being polite.

A good point, though I see this as an oxymoron: To hurt one's feelings is to offend them. Perhaps that is just my perspective. I defer to what I respond with to Saicher. Additionally, there is the intent to hurt someone's feeling and then there is hurt feelings without malice.

29 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

To me, the simple and easy answer to your question is "Because they say it does" and that's good enough for me, and should be good enough for everyone.

I disagree. It may be good enough for you and that's fair. But good enough for everyone is your pressing your views onto others who may not have the same views. How is this fair? Practicing Christianity is good enough for some, so it's good enough for everyone? This is where we either play on an even, fair field, or we give impartial preferences selectively. I don't believe this is a healthy approach.

20 minutes ago, Fauve Aeon said:

The Merry Christmas example is one of trying to force people into referring to the winter holidays,

This is a perfect example: It is breaking language rules with the purpose of not offending others: Holiday is actually pronounced and means Holy Day, as per grammar rules (single vowel = long form sound) - O is not "AH' but "OH". Though it has taken decades, if not centuries for that phrase to evolve into what it is. And this particular question of pronouns will take the same length of time to evolve equally. That is sated clearly in the article I linked to.

18 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Alyona, I would hate to see my reaction if in your absence somebody referred to you as 'moon-eyes' or any other pejorative name used to denigrate those of Asian descent -- I would be all over them in your defense.

And I appreciate that. But if there were a way for you to ask me whether you should, I'd likely say "Don't bother, because your feeding the trolls" - of course, in that example it is an intentionally malicious statement. But what if it were someone whose native language, that they were raised their entire life to use, does it out of simple habit? I wouldn't expect them to change what they've known and practiced their entire life just to suit my own preferences, or at the very lest: I would not take it as an offense.

If I do not know someone's sex then I'll use the "they", "their" pronouns, just as we all were taught is the proper way to speak the language. If I know the person chooses to consider themselves "non-binary" - fine, if I remember to use their preferred pronoun then I will. But I am not going to wrack my brain in trying to remember to do so to the detriment of the language skills I've learned and used all my life.

Perhaps the debate comes down to the intentional attempts at offending someone versus the natural way we have been speaking all our lives.

For myself: If you prefer what I consider a very odd request (because whether you prefer to be considered non-binary, the fact remains that you still are one or the other) - I will try to accommodate you. Though by the same token, I believe you have no right to expect me to try to rewire my brain for the sole purpose of accommodating you. Is this this not a fair statement?

 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

because whether you prefer to be considered non-binary, the fact remains that you still are one or the other

I think you are confusing sex and gender.

[Alyona Su]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think you are confusing sex and gender.

They are the same; Gender is the written form. Sex signifies man or women; boy or girl, Gender is male or female. This is how I learned the definitions of the word. Though the word sex also references copulation, its primary definition has always been the "binary gender" of the person (see what I did there ) - Gender was used primarily in written publications to avoid ambiguity that can come with the word sex.

Here's the etymology: https://www.etymonline.com/word/gender

In short: "gender" is usually singular and "sex" is usually plural.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Luna Bliss]

Gender Identity is the correct term. This refers to how someone perceives themselves according to how a society defines feminine vs masculine.  It's in your mind and not what's between your legs.

[Alyona Su]

22 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

People who willfully refuse to do that, are showing disrespect

This is the crux of the argument right here (my highlight in your quote.) The caveat is that too many people presume that this is what some are doing, when in reality, they are only doing what they've been taught to do all their lives. And this is where I refer to people taking the subject far too seriously than perhaps is warranted; putting too much weight into the importance of the subject. The subject itself is a worthy one, though perhaps not anywhere near as serious as some seem to take it.

The easiest way to tell if they do so intentionally: Let them know. Then if they "correct" themselves all is good, right? If not, then the best action is to remove yourself from the conversation. Hopefully, you won't allow such simple, minor misgiving to influence how you think of them. But people will judge your entire personality and friendship-worthiness based on your political or religious views alone, so go figure. Hahaha!

Edited December 13, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Luna Bliss]

16 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

I consider a very odd request (because whether you prefer to be considered non-binary, the fact remains that you still are one or the other)

Many are born with ambiguous genitals and internal organs.

One's physical body or sex is different from gender identity however.

[Love Zhaoying]

27 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

They are the same; Gender is the written form. Sex signifies man or women; boy or girl, Gender is male or female. This is how I learned the definitions of the word. Though the word sex also references copulation, its primary definition has always been the "binary gender" of the person (see what I did there ) - Gender was used primarily in written publications to avoid ambiguity that can come with the word sex.

Here's the etymology: https://www.etymonline.com/word/gender

In short: "gender" is usually singular and "sex" is usually plural.

Just an observation, but you are using the type of arguments that people use to deny Trans people exist.

[LyricalBookworm]

As a person with DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder), I'll sometimes use we or us when the two personalities that reside in my brain have merged so family and friends know. When we separate, either of us goes back to what our names are. We are both female. I learned to do this with the encouragement of my therapist. It is already a complicated life so I try to respectfully make it less complicated. It is out of respect for others so they know who they're conversing and interacting with.

I've met others with DID who always use we or us to describe themselves because both gender personalities are present in the brain. It does make things a bit easier.

Please know I'm only speaking from my own personal experience and what has worked for my life with this disorder.

Putting it as simply as I can, I don't care what the reason is a person has certain pronouns they prefer to be called. I only care that I do my best in using the pronouns they wish me to.

[LexxiXhan]

1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

So if you prefer one or the other, and you are being mentioned in a discussion that you are not directly part of, why does it actually matter in that case?

because it still has consequences for the absent person. People have lost jobs, families, safety and lives because others didn't think it mattered how they spoke about them in their absence.

[Alyona Su]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Just an observation, but you are using the type of arguments that people use to deny Trans people exist.

Now you're using patterns to assert something that isn't there. I do not deny such and I'll refrain from pretending to be offended that you insinuate such.

[Luna Bliss]

33 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

The easiest way to tell if they do so intentionally: Let them know. Then if they "correct" themselves all is good, right? If not, then the best action is to remove yourself from the conversation. Hopefully, you won't allow such simple, minor misgiving to influence how you think of them. But people will judge your entire personality and friendship-worthiness based on your political or religious views alone, so go figure. Hahaha!

How we refer to others in online discussions, and in the laws we enact, manifests in how those who differ from norms are treated in the world. If we refuse to acknowledge their existence, or deny them rights through laws, we are in effect saying they are not worthy of the rights afforded to the majority.
It gives a green light to the violence we see directed at them (not far from where I live a trans/non-binary individual was gutted/disemboweled, and this type of violence is not an isolated case -- transgender individuals are murdered and attacked at far greater rates).

I can't comprehend how you are equating the issue with religious or political views.

Edited December 13, 2019 by Luna Bliss

[LexxiXhan]

48 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Did people freak out during the switch to "you"? We don't know.

Yes we do.

" In 1660, George Fox, the founder of Quakerism, wrote a whole book labeling anyone who used singular you an idiot or a fool. And eighteenth-century grammarians like Robert Lowth and Lindley Murray regularly tested students on thou as singular, you as plural, despite the fact that students used singular you when their teachers weren’t looking, and teachers used singular you when their students weren’t looking. Anyone who said thou and thee was seen as a fool and an idiot, or a Quaker, or at least hopelessly out of date. "

[LexxiXhan]

49 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

I am for a pragmatic approach.

The simple courtesy of addressing people according to their identity so as to be inclusive and help build community is a pragmatic approach.

[Tolya Ugajin]

On 12/12/2019 at 8:11 AM, Ceka Cianci said:

TheMostInterestingWomanInTheWorld..

It has never been,My bad..

I don't always drink beer,but when I do,I still don't.

 

 

 

I don't always drink beer, but when I do, I prefer vodka.

[Alyona Su]

2 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:

The simple courtesy of addressing people according to their identity so as to be inclusive and help build community is a pragmatic approach.

Absolutely it is. If one has foreknowledge of that preference.

[LexxiXhan]

53 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

If I know the person chooses to consider themselves "non-binary"

You're making it very clear that your comments around peoples' existence are in bad faith.

[Luna Bliss]

5 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

8 minutes ago, LexxiXhan said:

The simple courtesy of addressing people according to their identity so as to be inclusive and help build community is a pragmatic approach.

Absolutely it is. If one has foreknowledge of that preference.

I've never encountered a transgender individual who had a fit if I didn't refer to them correctly.  They just laugh and wave their hand in a 'it's okay' type of gesture.   Maybe you are confusing what goes on in the real world with extreme radicals on strange websites?

* They've always expressed gratitude that I cared to name them correctly!

Edited December 13, 2019 by Luna Bliss

[Amina Sopwith]

If you know that someone prefers to be referred to as he, she or they, why wouldn't you just do it? What purpose is served by causing hurt and offence in not doing it?

I know there's all this "well what if I forget" but we all know a genuine mistake isn't the issue. Once you know, why would you wilfully make a point of not doing it? What does it cost you?

I had a colleague once called Michael and he liked to be called Mickey. I hate that diminutive but he liked and preferred it, so why would I not have used it for him? 

[Love Zhaoying]

19 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Now you're using patterns to assert something that isn't there. I do not deny such and I'll refrain from pretending to be offended that you insinuate such.

Cool. Question/theoretical situation: you meet a Trans person who appears male. The ask you to use "she/her/hers" pronouns. Would you?

[Gopi Passiflora]

On 12/12/2019 at 9:39 AM, Eva Knoller said:

I am a female in both worlds so I use she/her. I will call people by whatever they ask to be called. Scylla and Beth said it better, but I also can’t think of any good reason not to call people by what they prefer to be called. 

So Gopi, are you bored and trying to liven things up around here? I remember the way a similar-ish thread went. 🤔😄

I guess I am bored, but I also was curious about how people wish to be identified.  I guess I wanted to spark a discussion about this because I was inspired by the article that @Alyona Su posted about the word of the year.

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

YOU CAN CALL ME INGRID

[Beth Macbain]

3 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Absolutely it is. If one has foreknowledge of that preference.

Absolutely no one is saying anyone should be flayed for using the wrong pronoun accidentally or when they don't know what pronouns are preferred.

But when you do know, and make no attempt to seriously consider the person telling you what their pronouns are, you are dismissing their identity. It's not about slipping up without thinking - or maybe it is. 

This person has told you who they are. If I know a man is a man and he prefers the male pronouns, yet I call him "her" because I didn't bother to give thoughtful consideration to his identity, that would make me a jerk. It's habit for me to call men by the male pronouns. It's what I've been saying for 50 years, but when a person lets me know that they prefer I use "her", I will make every attempt because I'm going to stop and think and accept this person as a "her". I might slip, yes, but I'd also immediately correct myself and apologize because I am making the effort to retrain my brain and see that person for who they are because they are important and worthy and they exist. 

And please stop telling people what they can and cannot take seriously, especially when you are not at considerable risk of being killed in unbelievably horrifying ways because of who you are. 

[Alyona Su]

I get the impression that cognizance and context are not high priority efforts of readers as of late. I've made my points, readers will take whatever they envision an intent is from what they read based on their own purview, rather than make a genuine effort to understanding the intended meaning. So I'll just leave this here and move on. I invite others who genuinely want to understand my position to reread my comments and take care to pay attention to context and do not omit or substitute words I've used. I say what I mean and mean what I say. If you do not understand the message, then I cannot help you.

But this is most clear, and you've all experienced it, too: people will presume they know what your intentions and meanings are and don't even come close. So be it. Forums are what they are.

[Alyona Su]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Cool. Question/theoretical situation: you meet a Trans person who appears male. The ask you to use "she/her/hers" pronouns. Would you?

Yes.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

 

I get the impression that cognizance and context are not high priority efforts of readers as of late. I've made my points, readers will take whatever they envision an intent is from what they read based on their own purview, rather than make a genuine effort to understanding the intended meaning. So I'll just leave this here and move on. I invite others who genuinely want to understand my position to reread my comments and take care to pay attention to context and do not omit or substitute words I've used. I say what I mean and mean what I say. If you do not understand the message, then I cannot help you.

But this is most clear, and you've all experienced it, too: people will presume they know what your intentions and meanings are and don't even come close. So be it. Forums are what they are.

 

Yep, hard to convey tone, intent, etc. with merely the written word. That's one reason I use stickers so much.