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Bridget Hammill

DISAPPOINTMENT IN CHARGING TO USE THE EVENTS CALENDAR

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It was very interesting to read some of the changes coming to SL in the coming year of 2020. I have been in SL for any years and in January 2020 will celebrate 10 years of owning Muddy's Music Cafe.  As a club owner who uses the events calendar in the correct way and have respected the rules I am highly disappointed that because of people who miss use it with spam we are all going to be penalized by being charged to use it.  I feel upset that a forum that was started by SL for us to be able to advertise our events we are now being charged to use. It's upsetting when all are punished for what a few do.  I think there must be some way for SL to stop the ones who do not go by the rules and spam the events instead of making us all pay.  This change will most certainly make our club stop using this way to advertise our events.  While i am sure to most 10 lindens or 50 lindens if you are not a member seems like very little it adds up when we have hosts who have 6 shifts a week or for a club like mine who runs around the clock 24/7.  I am hoping that SL will rethink this change.

Bridget Hammill

Founder and owner of Muddy's Music Cafe

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I really don't think it's a few that they're trying to weed out- more like lots.  I see multiple postings for the same exact events on the same day at the same time.  Also see events posted in areas they don't belong in.  I don't think it's going to be an astronomical amount from what I've read for the charge but  maybe it will deter some of the spam.  

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1 hour ago, Bridget Hammill said:

As a club owner who uses the events calendar in the correct way and have respected the rules I am highly disappointed that because of people who miss use it with spam we are all going to be penalized by being charged to use it.

Yes, it's a shame but what else could they do? The event calendar was so overloaded with spam it was all but useless anyway. Maybe, but only maybe, this will be rnough to turn it into a resource for people to actually find what's happening in SL. It's not as if we've got anything to losoe anyway.

This change was annunced just as I was discussing with HHBS whether we should announce our building and scripting classes on the events calendar. We decided not to because it was only a waste of time. But if it's cleaned up, we may change our minds.

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From their Featured News page " We’ve heard many complaints from our Residents about duplicated event listings and spam. To combat this problem, we’re introducing a nominal fee which will help discourage spamming and encourage higher-quality events from committed event hosts. Basic members will be charged L$50 to create an event listing while Premium members will pay L$10. On the heels of this change, we will introduce the ability for Premium members to schedule recurring events. "

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If I want to find an entertainment event, I first UNCHECK ADULT, then search Nightlife/Entertainment.

If I want to find Live musicians only, not DJ's, I first UNCHECK ADULT, and then search Live Music.

I do not see this spam problem if I UNCHECK ADULT, and search a specific category.

Do you get my drift here?  If LL wants to get rid of the spam, either remove the Adult Category, or charge $1000/listing for Adult listings.

And if they all move to Moderate, remove their accounts.   Actually anyone can avoid most spam by searching with the right filters.   

All this extra charge for G and M rated events will do is reduce the number of legitimate G and M rated events.  

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1 hour ago, Jaylinbridges said:

If I want to find an entertainment event, I first UNCHECK ADULT, then search Nightlife/Entertainment.

If I want to find Live musicians only, not DJ's, I first UNCHECK ADULT, and then search Live Music.

I do not see this spam problem if I UNCHECK ADULT, and search a specific category.

Do you get my drift here?

Yes.

How many people bother with filtering search results? How often do you do it when you use Google or some other non-SL internet search function?

This is the standard excuse you get if you mention spam on MP too and i doesn't work there either because it's not how people work.

The most fundamental rule for any good search function design - and any other user interface design for that matter - is to start by examining and analyzing how people actually behave and then try to adapt the interface to that. You only do it the other way round when there is no other option. This is one of the exceptions to the rule that says there are no rules without expections.

Edited by ChinRey
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A DJ at a club is not an event. A L$200 sale on lap dances is not an event. A L$50 discount sale is not an event. Not to mention multiple listings for the same event at the same time, or the same event every hour for the next 24 hours for the next 7 days for the next month... Seriously?

I wish they'd actually charge more than what they've indicated. I'd rather see only 5 *genuine* events for the next 6 hours than the major cruft that is there now. My one and only thought about it is "what on earth took you so long, Linden Lab, to even think of this?"

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13 hours ago, Bridget Hammill said:

It was very interesting to read some of the changes coming to SL in the coming year of 2020. I have been in SL for any years and in January 2020 will celebrate 10 years of owning Muddy's Music Cafe.  As a club owner who uses the events calendar in the correct way and have respected the rules I am highly disappointed that because of people who miss use it with spam we are all going to be penalized by being charged to use it.  I feel upset that a forum that was started by SL for us to be able to advertise our events we are now being charged to use. It's upsetting when all are punished for what a few do.  I think there must be some way for SL to stop the ones who do not go by the rules and spam the events instead of making us all pay.  This change will most certainly make our club stop using this way to advertise our events.  While i am sure to most 10 lindens or 50 lindens if you are not a member seems like very little it adds up when we have hosts who have 6 shifts a week or for a club like mine who runs around the clock 24/7.  I am hoping that SL will rethink this change.

Bridget Hammill

Founder and owner of Muddy's Music Cafe

A cleaner events calendar will hopefully equal event listings that are easier to find, and will not only hopefully increase use by venues, but by potential patrons too. $10L per event would add up fast, but if it highlights and puts more eyes on posts due to less spam, that expense could potentially wind up being offset. If one person tips $100L after finding an event they otherwise would have missed in all the spam, thats 10 event listings paid for.

Its a small tax to pay for an improved service. Other changes like recurring event posts will make posting way easier and help with costs. No more posting the same event every week? I'll pay for that! Also a shareable calendar and the ability to follow hosts and a news feed could make finding and promoting events a lot easier.

That fee actually won't add up if a venue has a lot of weekly acts on their stage. One post will cover all of their events. My Washburn Lounge has 15 events a week right now, with every one either weekly or bi-weekly. It will cost me $150L to post all of my events for the forseeable future, with the occasional $10L as I add events or things change, thanks to recurring events. 

Edited by Adam Spark
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Does anyone actually use the events listing in its current state, other than club owners? Every event I go to, I hear about through word of mouth, mainly because the events list is so full of spam that it's practically unusable. I don't think you're getting much traffic through it unless they start charging.

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1 hour ago, Cinos Field said:

Does anyone actually use the events listing in its current state, other than club owners? Every event I go to, I hear about through word of mouth, mainly because the events list is so full of spam that it's practically unusable. I don't think you're getting much traffic through it unless they start charging.

Unusable is an understatement. One thing I forgot to mention in my OC is that even for what appears to be a decent, legitimate event, I go and... and... no one is there. If you're going to proclaim and schedule an event, at least show up intending to start the event, even if no one else shows up once it has started. Creating an event in the events calendar is not supposed to be a fire-and-forget type of thing. ~Harrumphs~

Edited by Alyona Su
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The vast majority of the uses of the events whole...section, has been misused and abused since it came to be. Most people have largely ignored it for quite some time. I don't know a single soul that would dare recommend it to anyone, especially new people. If you're someone that uses the events things correctly, you should be pissed off at the thousands who don't, because it s THEY  who are making things worse.

Why the hell are clubs using the events thing to advertise a normal set for a club that happens every single (insert whatever, day/week) at the same time, that's NOT an event. Doing stuff like that helps to flood the events and create the very problem they're trying to fix. Advertising every single set, every single day, is an effort to what..bog your sim down so no one can enjoy it anyway? No club needs 10+ events (or even 4+) listed every single day (one per set). That's not using the events calendar right, either, and never has been, it's ne of the things that pisses people off about the events thing.

But, there are few places you can advertise much of anything on LL property for free, the fact that events have been up until now is a huge part of the problem. 

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8 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

No club needs 10+ events (or even 4+) listed every single day (one per set). That's not using the events calendar right, either, and never has been, it's ne of the things that pisses people off about the events thing.

It's been a while since I was involved in SL clubs but I would guess that isn't so much the owner blitzing the calendar but individual DJs/hosts etc (some of whom won't ever meet each other) listing their shifts separately and independently, using their staff land perms. 

I personally think it's a shame - I'm into the more fringe/indie art and music events on SL and these are sometimes run on limited budgets and/or organised by non-premium members. If these folk decide not to pay 50L to list, that makes it impossible for others to find out about events they'd have otherwise attended and enjoyed. Also, it won't necessarily deter the big super clubs (or stores with decent turnover) from spamming events around the clock. 

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If a venue that holds events every single hour 24/7 places an ad for event every single hour that is L$10 x 24 x 7... or L$1,680. 

Since most events run for 2 hours, half that and it's about $4/week. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

If a venue that holds events every single hour 24/7 places an ad for event every single hour that is L$10 x 24 x 7... or L$1,680. 

Since most events run for 2 hours, half that and it's about $4/week. 

 

And it isn't even per week, since many events run weekly. The upcoming ability to post recurring events will render most costs a one time payment.

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33 minutes ago, DonnaDK said:

It's been a while since I was involved in SL clubs but I would guess that isn't so much the owner blitzing the calendar but individual DJs/hosts etc (some of whom won't ever meet each other) listing their shifts separately and independently, using their staff land perms. 

I personally think it's a shame - I'm into the more fringe/indie art and music events on SL and these are sometimes run on limited budgets and/or organised by non-premium members. If these folk decide not to pay 50L to list, that makes it impossible for others to find out about events they'd have otherwise attended and enjoyed. Also, it won't necessarily deter the big super clubs (or stores with decent turnover) from spamming events around the clock. 

It's more often than not a requirement that comes from the owner(s)/manager(s), versus individuals coming up with the idea themselves. Any good club/venue won't use the events calendar that way (because it tends to have the opposite effect and annoy the living crap out of people), they use group notices and group chat and things like that-but reserve event listing for an ACTUAL event. Anyone looking through the events can't really (as it stands now) filter things properly to find good events because of the flooding. It's why so many people don't USE the feature anymore, people who think just like OP annoyed everyone away from it (except the people who also use it in the same manner...it's chock full of them, lol)

An actual event, is one thing, a "set" at any club in sl, is not an event, never has been, never will be. Most people aren't likely to take issue with even a $50 fee for an event...someone whose venue sets up 4, 6, 10+ events a day may have issue with it...but it's because they're using it wrong-and they're the reason the fee exists now-or will. The cost isn't going to be prohibitive for people that use the events calendar things as intended. Part of the point in changing how they handle things is to remove the idiocy behind thinking you can advertise every set, for every dj/host/dancer(sometimes) combo, completely and utterly for free.

 

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There are some live performers that require you to post to events for their shows. The event listing did need a re-do, but they should charge the lower amount no matter if you're a premie or not.

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3 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

It's more often than not a requirement that comes from the owner(s)/manager(s), versus individuals coming up with the idea themselves. Any good club/venue won't use the events calendar that way (because it tends to have the opposite effect and annoy the living crap out of people), they use group notices and group chat and things like that-but reserve event listing for an ACTUAL event. Anyone looking through the events can't really (as it stands now) filter things properly to find good events because of the flooding. It's why so many people don't USE the feature anymore, people who think just like OP annoyed everyone away from it (except the people who also use it in the same manner...it's chock full of them, lol)

An actual event, is one thing, a "set" at any club in sl, is not an event, never has been, never will be. Most people aren't likely to take issue with even a $50 fee for an event...someone whose venue sets up 4, 6, 10+ events a day may have issue with it...but it's because they're using it wrong-and they're the reason the fee exists now-or will. The cost isn't going to be prohibitive for people that use the events calendar things as intended. Part of the point in changing how they handle things is to remove the idiocy behind thinking you can advertise every set, for every dj/host/dancer(sometimes) combo, completely and utterly for free.

 

Anything done for entertainment purposes is an event. Why would there be any such thing as a DJ (in or out of SL) if DJ'ing didn't warrant advertising as an event people should check out?

Now, putting it in the right category (not live music), thats a whole other issue.

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4 minutes ago, Adam Spark said:

Anything done for entertainment purposes is an event. Why would there be any such thing as a DJ (in or out of SL) if DJ'ing didn't warrant advertising as an event people should check out?

Now, putting it in the right category (not live music), thats a whole other issue.

They're not events in sl, have never been events in sl, and are one of the biggest contributors to the spewage that has plagued the events thing for years. Between adult clubs and music clubs doing it, they've driven away the vast majority of people that would use the events calendar to find things to do, lol. 

 I didn't say it didn't warrant any advertising, I said it's not an event...because it's not, especially not in this context (which is the important part, but even in rl, a dj's set that happens with regularity, is also not considered an event-it's a set).

If people want to consider it a event, or even not but want to advertise it...why should't they have to pay to advertise in one singular place? People have plenty of free ways to advertise things if they'd rather not pay for it-which I totally get. If we want the events calendar used as it is intended, we need to clean up the garbage first. That means weeding out people that will list multiple events a day just for poops and giggles.  It actually tends to give people negative opinions about the places before they even give them a chance..it's not a very effective advertising tool for club sets that aren't one-offs. 

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28 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

They're not events in sl, have never been events in sl, and are one of the biggest contributors to the spewage that has plagued the events thing for years. Between adult clubs and music clubs doing it, they've driven away the vast majority of people that would use the events calendar to find things to do, lol. 

 I didn't say it didn't warrant any advertising, I said it's not an event...because it's not, especially not in this context (which is the important part, but even in rl, a dj's set that happens with regularity, is also not considered an event-it's a set).

If people want to consider it a event, or even not but want to advertise it...why should't they have to pay to advertise in one singular place? People have plenty of free ways to advertise things if they'd rather not pay for it-which I totally get. If we want the events calendar used as it is intended, we need to clean up the garbage first. That means weeding out people that will list multiple events a day just for poops and giggles.  It actually tends to give people negative opinions about the places before they even give them a chance..it's not a very effective advertising tool for club sets that aren't one-offs. 

While 12 event listings for 12 DJs a day is a problem, they still should be allowed on events in and of themselves. If I run one two hour set at my club on an otherwise day off, I should have it listed on the events calendar. Its an event I want people to attend.

Edited by Adam Spark
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1 minute ago, Adam Spark said:

While 24 event listings for 12 DJs a day is a problem, they still should be allowed on events in and of themselves. If I run one two hour set at my club on an otherwise day off, I should have it listed on the events calendar. Its an event I want people to attend.

agree

from the DJ's perspective they are a show. The club they are in is not the show

i wouldn't mind tho if Linden got aggressive in removing event notices which are in the wrong category

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I have been in SL many years.  I will say that I have and do use the events when I want to search out something I am interested in.  I have never had an issue finding what I am looking for . I agree that there are a lot of people who spam and also agree that a lot of these are adult places offering adult services.  My club does neither.  I am going to have to disagree with those who say that a DJ at my club is not an event and not certain that I understand when some of you say this is not what the calendar was ever intended for.  As I said I have been here for a very long time and have never seen anything written from LL saying that a DJ in a club is not an event.  Just because you have spoken the words saying that it was never intended for this purpose does not make it true.  I would welcome anything from LL explaining to me that I am wrong and I most certainly apologize for using it for this purpose for the last 10 years.  It is not the club that is the event,  we are letting people know about a particular DJ.  We do go around the clock and have DJ"s every two hours so we do post their events.  We have people who follow just a this DJ or that DJ and this lets them know when the will be there.  We do not double post, we post in the right category, and we have the event going on that we post.  Again if someone on here can show me straight from LL where I am using the calendar in a manner that it was not intended I would be thankful.  

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I am an Owner of a small club for 3 years now, with a few life music events every Thursday. I do this to give musicians a forum, not to make money. I calculate costs of about 11 K every weeks (fees and tiers). I am lucky, if I get 4500 L on tips. I already pay 6 to 9 k just to keep the club running. And now you want us to pay 10 or 50 For every announcement in the event calendar? If you will do that, I won't announce an event anymore on the SL event calendar. I am also thinking about canceling my premium account. You won't make more money with me. You will lose some. 

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If you want to see how the general public- the people you want coming to your "events"- feel about how you're using the events calendar, it would take a few seconds to do a search on the topic, there are lots of threads, and aside form the ones wanting to know how events work, most of them are complaints about how it's being used-hence LL's recent "we've received a lot of complaints"(I think they forgot to check the complaint box about events for the last...lots of years, lol). You'll find most people find the obsessive spamming to the calendar to be ridiculous and obnoxious...regardless of how great the place might be, or the intention of those doing it. 

There are tools to advertise a specific DJ, host/ess, dancer, etc, especially free, but also not all free, of course...Groups are a wonderful way to do this, and the most commonly used one. If someone wants specific information about a specific person they are far less likely to use the overly spammed events calendar to do that. I have some singers I like, and even DJs, a lot-even though I refuse to go to clubs, I can listen in on their streams whenever it tickles my fancy by using those tools. I use mostly groups, but you also have inworld advertising, profiles, subscribers that don't take up group slots, out of world advertising methods which are most definitely only limited by your imagination, etc.. They are FAR more helpful and are more likely to reach people interested in specific folks.

Just because LL doesn't have a specific rule in writing telling you "don't do XYZ", doesn't mean that doing XYZ isn't frowned upon by a lot of people, or won't give the wrong impression. I'm not knocking individuals, or individual places (other than the overly spammy nature, which, frankly, that's ridiculous, that's 12 postings per day if you run 24 hours...come on, that's excessive), but the overall consensus about the events calendar and how it's currently being used (and has been, for, forever) is pretty negative. I'm actually kind of surprised by some of the places that use it for set advertising, because not only do I think it hinders them....lots of others who are far more likely to patronize these places, do too. That's pretty counterproductive, if you ask me, especially for places that generally have a good vibe, atmosphere, reputation, whatever have you without that.  I wouldn't want a place I loved and cherished to be lumped in with the likes of most of those other spammy places advertising just as much there every day...your mileage may vary. It just gives off a weird vibe in general, and, for me...nah, it wouldn't sit right. Even when I did DJ if I was ever asked to make an event for all my sets-or if anyone did it for me..I'd actually be miffed, given the bad rep the calendar has had.

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41 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

If you want to see how the general public- the people you want coming to your "events"- feel about how you're using the events calendar, it would take a few seconds to do a search on the topic, there are lots of threads, and aside form the ones wanting to know how events work, most of them are complaints about how it's being used-hence LL's recent "we've received a lot of complaints"(I think they forgot to check the complaint box about events for the last...lots of years, lol). You'll find most people find the obsessive spamming to the calendar to be ridiculous and obnoxious...regardless of how great the place might be, or the intention of those doing it. 

There are tools to advertise a specific DJ, host/ess, dancer, etc, especially free, but also not all free, of course...Groups are a wonderful way to do this, and the most commonly used one. If someone wants specific information about a specific person they are far less likely to use the overly spammed events calendar to do that. I have some singers I like, and even DJs, a lot-even though I refuse to go to clubs, I can listen in on their streams whenever it tickles my fancy by using those tools. I use mostly groups, but you also have inworld advertising, profiles, subscribers that don't take up group slots, out of world advertising methods which are most definitely only limited by your imagination, etc.. They are FAR more helpful and are more likely to reach people interested in specific folks.

Just because LL doesn't have a specific rule in writing telling you "don't do XYZ", doesn't mean that doing XYZ isn't frowned upon by a lot of people, or won't give the wrong impression. I'm not knocking individuals, or individual places (other than the overly spammy nature, which, frankly, that's ridiculous, that's 12 postings per day if you run 24 hours...come on, that's excessive), but the overall consensus about the events calendar and how it's currently being used (and has been, for, forever) is pretty negative. I'm actually kind of surprised by some of the places that use it for set advertising, because not only do I think it hinders them....lots of others who are far more likely to patronize these places, do too. That's pretty counterproductive, if you ask me, especially for places that generally have a good vibe, atmosphere, reputation, whatever have you without that.  I wouldn't want a place I loved and cherished to be lumped in with the likes of most of those other spammy places advertising just as much there every day...your mileage may vary. It just gives off a weird vibe in general, and, for me...nah, it wouldn't sit right. Even when I did DJ if I was ever asked to make an event for all my sets-or if anyone did it for me..I'd actually be miffed, given the bad rep the calendar has had.

All tools, groups, event calendar, ect., are equally appropriate for everything and should be used for everything.

People can frown upon anything. Am willing to bet that no two people share the EXACT same standards as to what should or should not be happening anywhere. Irrelevant if rules are being followed.

The biggest gripes I have seen about calendar over the last decade is indeed spam. That is, the same event being posted 20 times; NOT which events do or don't belong.

Should linden lab do away with the Nightlife category? If not DJs, what appropriate events belong there? What about the Discussion category? Education category? Games/Contests?

What makes it an appropriate event?

Edited by Adam Spark
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39 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

I have some singers I like, and even DJs, a lot-even though I refuse to go to clubs, I can listen in on their streams whenever it tickles my fancy by using those tools.

We have a name for you, but I won't post it here.  One of my DJ friends spends 2 hrs for every 1 hr of his set, so a 2 hr set means 6 hrs of his life for his set which you, in your opinion only, thinks is not worthy of an event listing.  Most of the comments here that think an event is ONLY what they think are events, are anti-club, and likely pretty anti social.  That's your right, but don't try to tell the people that enjoy others company and chat and dancing  together what is and is not an event to them!

As far as SL Events, never use the SL Web page events listing - it is badly designed and not set up for ease of use.  Firestorm Search (using the built in search) is a simple and compact design.  Use the filters to find what you want.  For instance, I am looking for a Blues club to go to tonight for a few hours.  Enter Blues, Uncheck A, and use Nightlife.  This is the result - So tell me, where is the spam?  Also you might want to tell the club owners and managers in the listed clubs here your opinion of their events.  I am sure they will appreciate your input :) 

9a8cc827820faf77b6ae5cfa06a22e59.png

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