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14 hours ago, Greyfamily said:

Well, seems corporate America has once again struck.....and about to price themselves out of business....at some point the average person will quit paying the high prices and live with what they have.

There's one thing we have to consider before we blame it on "corporate America".

Linden Lab is located in San Francisco where the median rent for a one-bedroom apartment is $3,460 a month. Even in a high cost country like Norway, where I live, you can live quite comfortably on an income like that. In many countries you're wealthy if you make that much. That's what LL has to expect to pay their employees only so they can have a decent roof over their heads, never mind the other costs of living which are also vey high in SF. Yes, it may be corporate greed but it's not LL that is greedy, they need that kind of money to get by.

Of course, we may ask why LL is located in such a place. Silicon Valley may have the highest density of skilled IT workers and entrepeneurs in the world but the vast majority of them are immigrants. I think (although I can't find any data about it) most are from India or Euopre but there are also quite a few from Japan, Korea and the Middle East. And the majority of US born technology wrkers there come from states where the costs of living is much lower. Give those people a place to work clsoer to their home and pay them a fraction of the salaries they get in Sanf Francisco - they're still better off financially and your company saves a ton of money.

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50 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

There's one thing we have to consider before we blame it on "corporate America".

Linden Lab is located in San Francisco where the median rent for a one-bedroom apartment is $3,460 a month.

Most Lindens are in offices outside California (Georgia, the Seattle area, and perhaps someplace else). And even those living in CA working in the Linden Street office live outside San Francisco proper where the rents are cheaper (according to one Linden I spoke with).

Edited by Luna Bliss

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It's an interesting question though -- should we blame "corporate America"?

I get a sense that LL has been positioning themselves more as a corporation as the years rolled by, and that they are thinking of SL more as a game as opposed to a platform or community.  Hence their comparison of the SL MP with other games or venues that sell 3d content, and without any acknowledgement (deliberately or not) of the vital differences between SL and, for example, Turbosquid. 

Corporations generally squeeze as much as they can from the nameless, faceless assets they possess. They do this because they can. 

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There is one big positive opportunity out of this that you guys fail to realize. That creators could take full of advantage of. They could start promoting inworld sales, by slightly marking up the MP listing, and maybe slightly lowering or keeping the price the same in world. Giving consumers the incentive to want to buy more inworld then on Marketplace. Creators really should take advantage of this idea.

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5 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

There is one big positive opportunity out of this that you guys fail to realize. That creators could take full of advantage of. They could start promoting inworld sales, by slightly marking up the MP listing, and maybe slightly lowering or keeping the price the same in world. Giving consumers the incentive to want to buy more inworld then on Marketplace. Creators really should take advantage of this idea.

Just that LL does not allow you to sell things cheaper in World than on MP...

I really fail to find any positive opportunity in having to pay more.

Edited by Garvin Twine
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2 minutes ago, Garvin Twine said:

Just that LL does not allow you to sell things cheaper in World than on MP...

I really fail to find any positive opportunity in having to pay more.

Prices are set and determined by creators, the average pricing that you see in world. That was set by creators, not LL. So why we see every single item on average, set to 250L and up. is due to creators, why you see fatpacks set at the price they are again is set by creators. If you want to blame someone, look at the creators who started that. When I was in SL full time, back in 2011 and 2012, and got back in from 2013 to 2015. I saw people having more freedom to set their prices, but due to a platitude of creators around the time I was on a break, you started to see prices being set to an average amount. I don't see a problem with that, I really don't. I don't see an issue with a group of creators coming together, and setting a price range for objects in SL.

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SL price fixing!!! How evil!! :P  But if you set the price too high then the linden will fall even more to balance that out.

Edited by MarissaOrloff

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Just now, Garvin Twine said:

Just that LL does not allow you to sell things cheaper in World than on MP...

I think they've changed that recently.

 

12 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

There is one big positive opportunity out of this that you guys fail to realize. That creators could take full of advantage of. They could start promoting inworld sales, by slightly marking up the MP listing, and maybe slightly lowering or keeping the price the same in world. Giving consumers the incentive to want to buy more inworld then on Marketplace. Creators really should take advantage of this idea.

Oh, don't say that! If I could simply keep a good looking, well organised in-world store with all my builds on display so people could come and see them before they bought. If I never ever had to bother with MP or with vendors again in my life - that would be a dream come true.

But how realistic is it?

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15 minutes ago, Garvin Twine said:

Just that LL does not allow you to sell things cheaper in World than on MP...

I really fail to find any positive opportunity in having to pay more.

This is untrue.  This was clarified over a year ago 

It was brought to our attention that within the Marketplace Fee and Listing Guidelines, under Disallowed Actions, it stated:

“The following actions are disallowed. Note that these actions are disallowed by the Second Life Terms of Service, and are restated here for clarification.

  • Anti-Competitive or Abusive Behavior. Examples include, but are not limited to:
    • inflating prices on the SL Marketplace, in comparison to in-world or other e-commerce sites,”


We’ve removed the section which applied to inworld stores.  This was contrary to your interests and our interests.  Marketplace is a tool to use in your overall product marketing strategy and if you'd like to differentiate pricing between online and inworld stores, that's your decision to make.
This line now reads:

  • Anti-Competitive or Abusive Behavior. Examples include, but are not limited to:
    • inflating prices on the SL Marketplace or other e-commerce sites,”

 

Edited by Cindy Evanier
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1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I get a sense that LL has been positioning themselves more as a corporation as the years rolled by, and that they are thinking of SL more as a game as opposed to a platform or community.

It's been happening for the last ten years.

Screen Shot 2019-11-23 at 6.53.58 AM

 

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42 minutes ago, Garvin Twine said:

Just that LL does not allow you to sell things cheaper in World than on MP...

This is no longer correct. I think it was @Dakota Linden who clarified this in thread comment some time ago. Not only is the price difference not limited to 5% any more, but it is now unlimited. If you want to charge L$100 in-world and L$1000 for the same thing on MP, you can. Not a wise thing to do, but you can do it. That's my current understanding, anyway.

/me laffs. I see others have already made this pretty clear.

~tucks tail, backs away toward the exit, slooowwwlllyyyyy~

Edited by Alyona Su
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3 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

It's been happening for the last ten years.

Screen Shot 2019-11-23 at 6.53.58 AM

 

Last time I checked, LL has always been marked as a corporation. They have always been that way. And like any business or company, they will have to do things, that they don't want to do. I may be wrong, but even then. In the past 10 years, LL has grown as a business.

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8 minutes ago, halebore Aeon said:

Last time I checked, LL has always been marked as a corporation. They have always been that way. And like any business or company, they will have to do things, that they don't want to do. I may be wrong, but even then. In the past 10 years, LL has grown as a business.

Yes, I agree. The screenshot is to show that LL has been marketing SL as a "game" for years.

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2 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

Yes, I agree. The screenshot is to show that LL has been marketing SL as a "game" for years.

I was gonna say, SL has been marketed as a game for years. To which I wholeheartedly agree, especially since the open world sand box games have become big. It may not be similar to Minecraft, which I tend to reference and compare it a lot too. But there are similarities as a whole. Like Minecraft, what kinda game gives you the freedom to build what you want, or allows you to upload or create your own content with the freedom that we have in SL? Like people really don't get, that if you look at SL, and say something like creation club for Skyrim or Fallout 4. There is user generated content, unlike Minecraft. That allows the user to be able to create and make a living off of it. To me, it's an open world online sandbox game.

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I did this calculation:

If I buy 2500L$, it cost me $9.73, and with transaction fee of US1.49 the final cost is US$11.22

If I sell an item on the MP for L$2500, I now get L$2250 for it. (10% LL commission as of Dec 2nd 2019)

When I sell the L$2250, I get US$8.13. (3.5% transaction fee to LL)

When I withdraw the balance to my bank, I get US$7.72 (5% Transaction fee to LL)

So if a SL member buys L$2500 and the merchant cashes it in, we are seeing a transformation of US$11.22 to US$7.72, and LL are effectively taking 31.2% for themselves.

LL say in thier blog post: ”This new rate remains significantly lower than most digital content commissions across the industry. Apple and Google charge a 30% commission on sales in their app stores, as do many other popular virtual worlds, VR and gaming platforms, such as Oculus and Sinespace.”

They refer just to the 10% MP commission, but we see that LL is actually creaming off over 30% if you follow the money from start to finish.

10% MP commission is one thing, but then all the other charges just add up to something that is somewhat unfair.

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Yes, but that 30% is spread between the consumer and the creator which is fair. LL does need to make money to continue our fun inworld. If a creator is successful enough they could wait to cash out till they have more than enough lindens to cash out with the max fee of $500usd essentially giving them a transaction discount. Then again only very few can achieve that. :(

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36 minutes ago, MarissaOrloff said:

Yes, but that 30% is spread between the consumer and the creator which is fair. LL does need to make money to continue our fun inworld. If a creator is successful enough they could wait to cash out till they have more than enough lindens to cash out with the max fee of $500usd essentially giving them a transaction discount. Then again only very few can achieve that. :(

INDEED

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1 minute ago, hlh3230 said:

So what does this mean for the average SL user?

Nothing really, besides adding name changes for premium members and adding more things if you sign up for premium plus. This really won't effect the user base as a whole. It's really only gonna effect the designers and creators who post to MP, or who want their listings enhanced to drive for more sales.

 

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I am not the most educated on this issue or the smartest in general but I think that if they are hurting for money and need to raise the percentage I feel like it would make more since to make it only apply when the profits are exciding a certain amount on a regular basis. So only the really big corporate  companies that are not exclusively doing business on SL and wouldn't even notice or care. I feel like they wont make much from the people that are not even charging that much for their products in the first place and only make around maybe $40 USD a month. I am concerned as a consumer that every content creator is going to jack up their prices to make up for the loss. SL might eventually die because of this cause SL is all about the avatars and things you buy to decorate for a lot of people and when they cant afford to play anymore, no more population and then no one will want to be there. What LL really needs to do is make more incentives to spend money on LL things and hire some content creators to create things that will make profits that stay in LL wallet. 

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18 hours ago, Garvin Twine said:

LL pays that VAT they receive from EU residents and have to give it to the residents country tax department... And why would an american company do that for a service they sell and provide within the US?

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Value_Added_Tax_(VAT)_Frequently_Asked_Questions#Linden_Lab_is_based_in_the_United_States._Why_are_you_charging_VAT_for_European_Residents.3F

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13 hours ago, MarissaOrloff said:

Yes, but that 30% is spread between the consumer and the creator which is fair. LL does need to make money to continue our fun inworld. If a creator is successful enough they could wait to cash out till they have more than enough lindens to cash out with the max fee of $500usd essentially giving them a transaction discount. Then again only very few can achieve that. :(

But recently added were fees only for the creators. And it does not change the fact that they take more than 30%!

To get to the max fee of 500US$ you need to check out 10,000US$ which most are not able to do, as you start with a maximum of 1,000US$ per month which you need to ask to be increased. But LL will not increase this amount unless you have more then 1,000US$ on your account for several months which brings you then to the next tier of 2,000US$.... 

So this is only for the big businesses who benefit here but not the people who really do the creative and amazing stuff SL is meant to be about.

Besides ... who earns like 1,000US$ a month within SL is very unlikely able to simply wait for nearly a year to check out their earned and needed money.

Edited by Garvin Twine

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19 hours ago, halebore Aeon said:

There is one big positive opportunity out of this that you guys fail to realize. That creators could take full of advantage of. They could start promoting inworld sales, by slightly marking up the MP listing, and maybe slightly lowering or keeping the price the same in world. Giving consumers the incentive to want to buy more inworld then on Marketplace. Creators really should take advantage of this idea.

It looks like most of us will have no other choice than to do just that, so don't you worry: the prices on MP WILL go up. Personally i am writing a blogpost for my brand's blog as we speak where i will announce to my customers what is about to happen. I am sure most common folk who are not merchants even have no idea at all that LL is increasing MP commissions (or some probably don't even realize there IS such a thing as MP commissions at all). So i am going to inform my customers about this, and i will also encourage them to use MP for finding items they like, then going in-world stores and using their viewer's Search Area tool to quickly locate the item they are looking for on the sim. Of course those who prefer the convenience of MP and will not mind the price increase can continue to buy on MP. But i will also give them some price examples like: an item that is 595L in-world will cost 660L on MP, or an item that is 395L in-world will be 440L on MP, just to give them a feel of what it all means. I have over 6000 people in my customer group, and i want them all to be well-informed before they can take decisions where they want to shop.

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20 hours ago, Garvin Twine said:

Just that LL does not allow you to sell things cheaper in World than on MP...

I really fail to find any positive opportunity in having to pay more.

Dakota Linden has come on this forum a time or two to explain that while selling at at lower price inworld WAS against the rules many years ago ( over from Xstreet) it is no  longer a rule. People are free to sell at lower prices inworld. Many of us were confused on that so it was good to have some official word.    

 

And I mentioned selling at different prices at the BEGINNING of this thread. Not a new idea. Some folks already do that and of course many groups have discounts from linked vendors for their groups -- making big discounts inworld.   

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53 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

And I mentioned selling at different prices at the BEGINNING of this thread. Not a new idea. Some folks already do that and of course many groups have discounts from linked vendors for their groups -- making big discounts inworld.   

And I still miss the point in getting a positive opportunity because something just got worse and my income declines for the 2nd time this year due to raised fees.

But it seems that the main writers on this forum support LL what ever and posting something not in line with them gets you corrected 5 times for the same thing... 

Edited by Garvin Twine

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