More Stores Inworld with Higher MP Fee?

[Prokofy Neva]

The Lindens are right that other online services take a terrible chunk out of your income. I just sold a rare book for $350 and ouch, after Amazon fees and tax, I have only $298. That's a big chunk. Amazon has gotten worse and worse with its fees to the point where it almost doesn't make sense to sell books on there anymore.

So 10% doesn't seem like much, but even here in the Vampire State, the sales tax is only $0.0825, and that's why people go to New Jersey to shop. If you think of the MP fee as a tax, it's kinda high.

The buyer does not feel this pinch. He pays a price, that has been raised or not, and doesn't see where it "goes".

The merchant feels the pinch when he earns $90 from a $100 item.

Lowering the price of those featured ads, which make no sense and I personally have stopped using, can't make up for that.

Especially with the cashout now at 257, hello! Which it "shouldn't be", given that people buy more around holidays, but yet it is. And it used to be 253 for a long time, before Linden Homes surges.

So I wonder if the net effect of this will be more inworld stores. Yay! That means more rentals. And just more life and activity in general.

Except, the era of the big malls is way over. I don't think there are any, any more, except the laggy monstrosities that the Lindens run at holidays.

There are now merchant events, which are different than malls. They are only a month in duration and people therefore feel a kind of frenzy. You have to pay anywhere from $500 to $1000 or more for a stall in one of these events, and hope you make at least that back. Which, you are sure to do if you have a gatcha machine!

Small malls actually do ok. I know, because I run a few where I literally have had tenants for years. I sometimes fly around the Mainland and see very well-manicured, well-managed little malls. Sometimes they are just groups of friends who sell to each other. But that's ok.

Merchants tend to want their own sim, with their own store at the high end of the ranking, and at least a mainland parcel up in the air, at the lower end. But a lot of merchants ditched their stores in recent years because of tier -- even going down, even with more prims per meter. It's not just the cost; it's the maintenance, the chore of constantly cleaning up, fronting the merchandise and changing the store windows and policing griefers and copyright thieves. I think there's a perception that there is less theft if your item is on the MP. I don't really know if that theory bears out because theft is possibly even from the MP given the propensity for alts.

Anyway, I still think there might be more stores inworld now.

[Alyona Su]

Not a tax; a surcharge for using the system. The cost of doing business. If you take credit cards in RL there is a surcharge for doing that, too. There are surcharges for a lot of things. A tax is is your compelled tribute to a government. So you either deal with it or quit.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Rya Nitely]

3 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

So you either del with it or quit.

So, is this what you're saying - No matter what negative change LL throws at us we should deal with it or quit? In other words are you saying shut up? The day people shut up and stop voicing their views (and that day is coming), that simply means apathy, and that's not healthy. I think even LL want to hear from us. They start worrying if they didn't. Because when your customers are not happy but they stop complaining that's not a good sign.

They've been slowly pushing the exchange rate from 247 to 257 over a couple of years and people made a huge fuss in the past, but the recent moves, nobody bothered to say a word, just quietly watched it move.

Well, you might get what you want - perhaps merchants will shut up before too long.

[Alyona Su]

6 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

So, is this what you're saying - No matter what negative change LL throws at us we should deal with it or quit?

One question: What can you do about it? Whatever it is, all you can do is get to doing it, right?

[Luna Bliss]

8 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:

15 minutes ago, Rya Nitely said:

So, is this what you're saying - No matter what negative change LL throws at us we should deal with it or quit?

One question: What can you do about it? Whatever it is, all you can do is get to doing it, right?

Most people need time to process their reaction to changes, and it's insulting when you demand they feel exactly as you do and exactly when you want them to.

Also, if enough people don't like the changes and this affects SL in a negative way this could indeed cause LL to pause with whatever change they are trying to make.

[Alwin Alcott]

hmm looks like time for the regulars again when a fee changes, with the same responses..
this was expected and even announced before the previous raise .... ladies, deal with it.

some will freak out, others try to smother you in a pile of blankets while they push a knife in your back, pretending to be a sweetiepie

for every seller leaving, 5 new ones come up.
 

[Mollymews]

4 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

One question: What can you do about it? Whatever it is, all you can do is get to doing it, right?

is true that whatever it is, is whatever it is.  In a circular reasoning way

i get what you mean tho, when faced with a fait accompli there is not much we can do about it at this moment

however I always encourage people to push back when they are affected. As while a push back may not overturn a fait accompli it can have an effect on the next time the platform provider is thinking about doing something similar.  Without push back (feedback), the platform provider can end up making future decisions based only on what is in their own heads. Decisions which can end up being made with circular reasoning because empty head. To increase revenue, we need to increase revenue

[Alyona Su]

10 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

is true that whatever it is, is whatever it is.  In a circular reasoning way

i get what you mean tho, when faced with a fait accompli there is not much we can do about it at this moment

however I always encourage people to push back when they are affected. As while a push back may not overturn a fait accompli it can have an effect on the next time the platform provider is thinking about doing something similar.  Without push back (feedback), the platform provider can end up making future decisions based only on what is in their own heads. Decisions which can end up being made with circular reasoning because empty head. To increase revenue, we need to increase revenue

I concur completely. Speaking only for myself, I try to choose my battles a little more particularly. For example: the change to IM caps for basic accounts. That affect everyone, everywhere, so the lashing-out about that, I feel, was very justified and enough people participated that it change (canceled) the new policy.

This one, however, is something I see as being simply the cost of doing business, it really only affect a small subset of SL users. Furthermore, as they state in their posting: that surcharge (I see "commission" as a misnomer)  hasn't change in a decade. What price for anything in Real Life has stayed the same for a full decade? Sure, there are some things, but I believe we all can agree that is the rare exception to the rule.

And 10% isn't really that much, to be truthful about it. So add 15% to your existing prices and you've knocked that "commission" increase out altogether.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Chic Aeon]

Personally I would LIKE to see a move back to inworld shopping and "malls" (NICE MALLS NOT TACKY MALLS).   Maybe malls where each creator had a new special item for that month  --- sort of like a permanent event but with extra shopping possibilities right there.   Would it work? Who knows. Shoppers are fickle folks and often lazy. Many when given the opportunity to view a demo don't bother.   If someone wants to try, I am willing to build (without a ton of "move the tree over there and darken that brick) as part of the mix. I do NOT want to have to RUN it however LOL. NOT FUN. 

 

And @Prokofy Neva is WAY off on the cost of events. Even third tier events run around 900 or 1000, second tier events 1500 to 5000 and I have no idea what the "top" events costs.   These are just for regular booths. Being a sponsor can easily double or triple the cost. 

 

Even now when many events are struggling and a preponderance of creators seem to be churning out the same thing (new buttons placed in new spots, higher collars, different patterns and the like) month after month some folks are still making money. You need to have a good product (hopefully a LITTLE different than what it is already out there -- or at least better LOOKING) and you need to pick your venues carefully.  

 

The bottom line for many creators is covering their expenses and hopefully ENJOYING themselves. If either of those disappear, it is likely they will also.   With all that has been going on with The Lab this year (and certainly lately) it is good for us as citizens to remember that THEY still need to be here in order for US to still be here.  :D.

So let's keep that in mind as we move into 2020.

 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

Many brands simply can't manage with an inworld store.

If you're not a major brand - how do people find you inworld?

MAYBE we will see a return to malls - that would help small brands.

But otherwise only the large well known brands can pull off an inworld location - a benefit they've always had and which many use.

 

I think for smaller brands, the return of malls, hunts, lucky chairs, and so on will be needed if they want to have any non-MP presence. And then... you need to big enough that 4.999% of your sales pay your land tier, or it's still better to stay on MP.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

3 hours ago, Chic Aeon said:

Personally I would LIKE to see a move back to inworld shopping and "malls" (NICE MALLS NOT TACKY MALLS).   Maybe malls where each creator had a new special item for that month  --- sort of like a permanent event but with extra shopping possibilities right there.   Would it work? Who knows. Shoppers are fickle folks and often lazy. Many when given the opportunity to view a demo don't bother.   If someone wants to try, I am willing to build (without a ton of "move the tree over there and darken that brick) as part of the mix. I do NOT want to have to RUN it however LOL. NOT FUN. 

 

And @Prokofy Neva is WAY off on the cost of events. Even third tier events run around 900 or 1000, second tier events 1500 to 5000 and I have no idea what the "top" events costs.   These are just for regular booths. Being a sponsor can easily double or triple the cost. 

 

Even now when many events are struggling and a preponderance of creators seem to be churning out the same thing (new buttons placed in new spots, higher collars, different patterns and the like) month after month some folks are still making money. You need to have a good product (hopefully a LITTLE different than what it is already out there -- or at least better LOOKING) and you need to pick your venues carefully.  

 

The bottom line for many creators is covering their expenses and hopefully ENJOYING themselves. If either of those disappear, it is likely they will also.   With all that has been going on with The Lab this year (and certainly lately) it is good for us as citizens to remember that THEY still need to be here in order for US to still be here.  :D.

So let's keep that in mind as we move into 2020.

 

 

No, I'm not "way off" on the cost of events, dear. I am describing the lower end of merchant events that *I myself take part in*. Imagine, there is such a thing! I make stuff, and take part in events, even some "famous" ones. So I'm reporting what *I pay*.  I write about *what I know*. And I don't think these are "third tier" because one of them is on Seraphim. The price is $1000 as ordinary merchant and $1500 as sponsor on one, for example. But another one is only $400 and yet another is $500. I guess they're beneath you. We could have a debate about what "first tier" and "second tier" is. But it doesn't matter. $500 or $1000 is the minimum, and it goes up.

Sure, the very top events probably pay more like $5000. But we don't know because they don't openly tell you their price and it seems a closely-guarded secret. I wouldn't be surprised if that is the fee for the most crowded, popular events, however. And I don't doubt that after only two people play the round of 20+ at Epiphany, say, to get the prize, that the merchant makes back what she put into it and the rest is gravy.

I don't doubt the top tier make money but then they get fatigue. There are too many events. They come too frequently. All along the way, they harangue the merchants with all kinds of rules and reprimands and intrigue and it gets really tiresome. I am near to done with it myself, with most of it. 

My feeling about the Lindens isn't one of gratitude because I pay them. I am not grateful to my phone company or electric company. I appreciate them. I appreciate that they function better than their counterparts in Russia.

 

[ArgontheDevil Ormega]

I would enjoy seeing a return of inworld stores rather than MP.  I infinitely prefer seeing a product inworld than as a picture on marketplace.

[Prokofy Neva]

8 hours ago, Rya Nitely said:

So, is this what you're saying - No matter what negative change LL throws at us we should deal with it or quit? In other words are you saying shut up? The day people shut up and stop voicing their views (and that day is coming), that simply means apathy, and that's not healthy. I think even LL want to hear from us. They start worrying if they didn't. Because when your customers are not happy but they stop complaining that's not a good sign.

They've been slowly pushing the exchange rate from 247 to 257 over a couple of years and people made a huge fuss in the past, but the recent moves, nobody bothered to say a word, just quietly watched it move.

Well, you might get what you want - perhaps merchants will shut up before too long.

Yeah, Alyona must be a fan of Ayn Rand.

How much putting up and shutting up does she do?

I see nothing wrong with bitching about the change of the exchange rate and asking pointedly if this is a function of Linden Homes and trying to get people to feel like their Lindens are cheap so they can buy all the add-ons for the Lindens homes made by the Lindens' friends.

Oh, and as Qie pointed out, the cheap currency flooding in from all those stipends attached to the premium accounts. So thanks! Linden Homes has been swell for the economy -- the Lindens' economy, not just those in the inworld economy.

 

 

[Prokofy Neva]

3 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Many brands simply can't manage with an inworld store.

If you're not a major brand - how do people find you inworld?

MAYBE we will see a return to malls - that would help small brands.

But otherwise only the large well known brands can pull off an inworld location - a benefit they've always had and which many use.

 

I think for smaller brands, the return of malls, hunts, lucky chairs, and so on will be needed if they want to have any non-MP presence. And then... you need to big enough that 4.999% of your sales pay your land tier, or it's still better to stay on MP.

 

I have no idea what this percentage is that you've invoked, but a store in my rentals, for example, if they paid, say, $700 for 850 prims and got 10% discount for 4 weeks in advance, they would have to sell past the $2520 for the rent -- and they do, often by just selling a few of their more expensive products.

They can also be in a $25/50 stall and do it that way and have less of a cost.

[Chic Aeon]

@Prokofy Neva  We went all over the rates a year or more ago and I pasted in some place where  for you where the rates WERE publish. Not all that many are secret. I agree some are. And IMO there are some (still) on Seraphim that don't even qualify as third level. This teh resounding opinion from the folks that I know who have done events for years.  So we all have our points of view and our "inside info".  I am happy that you have some of your own now.   

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I have no idea what this percentage is that you've invoked, but a store in my rentals, for example, if they paid, say, $700 for 850 prims and got 10% discount for 4 weeks in advance, they would have to sell past the $2520 for the rent -- and they do, often by just selling a few of their more expensive products.

Well if they used to take a 5% cut and soon they will take a 10% cut... for an inworld store to be a good idea it has to make enough money to cover the 5% gap...

There is 0-tier to have a MP store, but there will be a 10% cut.

Right now... before the change is live... if within <5% of your total monthly gross receipts on an inworld shop, you pay your tier - then the cost of that inworld shop is cheaper than a shop on MP.

After this chance, if within <10% of your monthly gross receipts you pay your tier - the cost of your inworld shop will be cheaper than a shop on MP.

If it takes you MORE than 10% of monthly sales to pay tier - then MP is cheaper (or you need a smaller shop).

 

As a case in point... my "shop" is mostly freebies. I give away some scripts and shapes and kits for proportions that I personally feel should be free so everyone can learn those skills... (I have no need of money out of SL and my goods aren't generally competing with people who do, I'm basically what they call a '10%er' in RL, and by raw income up until 2018 I was in the 1%). I have a small number of items that have an actual cost... I make maybe... 150L every couple months... Even a land tier bill of 10L / month would be more than what I pay in MP fees.
- When I look at MP there are a huge number of people that are either like me, or 'think they have shop' but there's not really much action there... Then there's a much much much smaller number of people actually getting regular sales... And then there's a very small cadre of people that get massive sales... shops like Addams, Blueberry, etc...

 

This 10% fee may look like a 'progressive tax' hitting the big merchants most... but it's really a 'regressive tax' because it makes the small merchants simply not viable. Much like a sales tax - a guy with 10 million in the bank pays more than someone with $300... but the person with only $300 is hurt more by the small amount they pay.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Pussycat Catnap

[Pussycat Catnap]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

They can also be in a $25/50 stall and do it that way and have less of a cost.

Do you run that as a mall or in a grouped up area?

If so... basically a mall like used to be common before xStreet became Marketplace - that's a service you could start looking to leverage... "get a stall here and people can find it"... something we all needed back before Marketplace... and anyone looking to leave Marketplace is going to need again...

 

[Diane Soulstar]

I am glad that they think of the creators and only raised 5% more just and kept 10%. Please understand, that 30% is industry standards. They charging way way less. I don't understand why people even complaining. People are using a service. If one not happy on 10% then unlist MP store and be happy with in-world store then. Imagine how Amazon, Google, Apple charge... way way more.

As a buyer, I personally feel its way way easier to buy stuff in Marketplace. Ex, you want to buy a dress, you can see multiple products together in marketplace.. you dont have to hop around multiple sims, no lag at all, no mesh heavy sims... and you can relax at one place and buy the desired products from MP.

As a creator, I feel 10% rise is nothing. Actually Linden did very good to create an online store like Marketplace. 100 times easier with direct deliveries from Inventory. No packing.. simply connect and sell. So why not pay for using the service. 10% is nothing at all. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Diane Soulstar

[Prokofy Neva]

22 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Do you run that as a mall or in a grouped up area?

If so... basically a mall like used to be common before xStreet became Marketplace - that's a service you could start looking to leverage... "get a stall here and people can find it"... something we all needed back before Marketplace... and anyone looking to leave Marketplace is going to need again...

 

The stalls are both together with a mall, which I prefer to call a "plaza," which might have a dozen or so stores, and also just on a boardwalk, where there might be only a few stores or no stores. 

Yes, people used to rent these stalls merely to place their XStreet boxes because they had to be out inworld someplace and not everyone wanted to rent land.

Perhaps they might want a stall or store now if leaving the Marketplace, but I tend to think people leaving the Marketplace due to the 10% cut will leave it for good. Especially if they made the migration from inworld store to MP and didn't do so well.

It seems things sell better on the MP; certainly gatchas do, because you can leverage search. Yes, serendipity inworld helps, and certain things, especially houses I should think, just have to be seen inworld before a purchase. But I just don't know. It's always hard to tell because we don't have enough information. I have closed one mall in the last decade because it was in PG which is always hard to fill. But I like them. I think they are needed.

[iamyourneighbour]

MP is not bad for doing not a lot 

Once you upload there's not a lot to do apart from counting money and customer support once in a bluemoon

[Syo Emerald]

I prefer the MP over inworld shopping. There are so many terrible inworld stores and I associate malls with an even less enjoyable experiance.

[Desudesudesuka]

On 11/22/2019 at 5:09 AM, Alyona Su said:

Not a tax; a surcharge for using the system. The cost of doing business. If you take credit cards in RL there is a surcharge for doing that, too. There are surcharges for a lot of things. A tax is is your compelled tribute to a government. So you either deal with it or quit.

Even with your semantics it's arguable LL sits in the position of a governing body over SL, therefor any fee is very much an official tax as well. There are usages of "tax" which just use it as a synonym for theft, since taxation is theft anyways. Everyone knows what OP meant, I don't see the point of semantics besides upvote farming.

To respond to the topical reply here to OP's post... Deal with it or quit is a very poor phrase to sling around as SL sees people doing just that, unless you genuinely want to see the game die it's a harmful attitude to spread. OP is attempting to deal with it in their way by discussing it here with the likeminded, and hopefully to be seen by LL.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Desudesudesuka

[Alyona Su]

1 hour ago, Desudesudesuka said:

Even with your semantics it's arguable LL sits in the position of a governing body over SL, therefor any fee is very much an official tax as well. There are usages of "tax" which just use it as a synonym for theft, since taxation is theft anyways. Everyone knows what OP meant, I don't see the point of semantics besides upvote farming.

To respond to the topical reply here to OP's post... Deal with it or quit is a very poor phrase to sling around as SL sees people doing just that, unless you genuinely want to see the game die it's a harmful attitude to spread. OP is attempting to deal with it in their way by discussing it here with the likeminded, and hopefully to be seen by LL.

You're right, it is arguable. A tax is an amount of legal tender paid to your government. Legal tender. No government recognizes the monetary value of a Linden Dollar. Hence, it is not legal tender. You can argue back, that's fine. But opinions never change facts. I know, I get it, such annoying things, those facts.

[OptimoMaximo]

On 11/23/2019 at 5:59 AM, Diane Soulstar said:

I am glad that they think of the creators and only raised 5% more just and kept 10%. Please understand, that 30% is industry standards. They charging way way less. I don't understand why people even complaining. People are using a service. If one not happy on 10% then unlist MP store and be happy with in-world store then. Imagine how Amazon, Google, Apple charge... way way more.

As a buyer, I personally feel its way way easier to buy stuff in Marketplace. Ex, you want to buy a dress, you can see multiple products together in marketplace.. you dont have to hop around multiple sims, no lag at all, no mesh heavy sims... and you can relax at one place and buy the desired products from MP.

As a creator, I feel 10% rise is nothing. Actually Linden did very good to create an online store like Marketplace. 100 times easier with direct deliveries from Inventory. No packing.. simply connect and sell. So why not pay for using the service. 10% is nothing at all. 

I mean, you just copy pasted the same identical nonsense intervention you did on the other thread... 

PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT LL TAKES MORE THAN 30% AND THAT THE "INDUSTRY STANDARD" ISN'T SOMETHING APPLICABLE ON MP BECAUSE IT'S NOT COMPARABLE TO THE OTHER PLATFORMS. 

jeeez... 

[Pixieplumb Flanagan]

Perhaps there will be more stores in world, and maybe that will be nice.  A majority of my sales are via the marketplace, and I'll be adjusting pricing there to accommodate the increased fees,  since people can easily come and shop in world instead if they'd like to save a few lindens   That's the case for pretty well all of us who maintain our full product range on the marketplace (the sales proportion, not necessarily the price adjustments).

Really I'm happy to still be making a good living at this malarkey after 12 years in business (whew!).