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MP fees raising to 10% per sale. Thoughts?


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33 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

in the last big discussion when cash out fees went up, all I could practically offer to merchants was that if L$ prices do go up as a consequnence then I am accepting of this

while I am not a wealthy person, I do have more discretionary income than I have had in the past. And since I have come back on SL my spending budget is quite a bit  more than it has been in the past. Perhaps relative to some other people my budget is quite small, but I can afford to buy quite a lot of new stuff each month like about 40-50 different things. If a price increase means 30-40 stuffs then is still quite a lot of new stuff and I am ok with this

 

I suspect that a lot of shoppers would agree. Heck, "I" would agree although I don't shop that much.  

I think the harder pill to swallow is that once again the PEOPLE making all the content that makes SL what it is are the ones paying the price. It doesn't really matter that I am no longer cashing out. It STILL bothers me that once again we are the ones taking the biggest hit.  

I have felt for some months that some GOOD news is in order for the citizens at large. Too many folks are feeling down and bored et al.  Showing off the new Linden homes in a week and a half is fun but NOT a shot in the arm that needs to happen.  I did not see any "good news" in that last press release.  Mostly just a PR spin on things we already  knew -- along with some revelations we probably would have appreciated NOT knowing about. 

 

WE NEED SOME GOOD NEWS in order to stay in the fold here -- especially the creators. 

 

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Someone else (on the SL reddit) did the math so I didn't have to. From a $20 USD customer buy in, the creator receives just $13.08 after cashing out (Assuming 100% MP sales). Just 65.4%. LL

I suspect that a lot of shoppers would agree. Heck, "I" would agree although I don't shop that much.   I think the harder pill to swallow is that once again the PEOPLE making all the content that

llGiveOpinion(Another screw to the people that actually create the things you see, wear and sit on in world, and the people who work every day to make it a better place. Instead of the yearly raise an

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14 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

fake fees to the fake  prices of your fake wares.

SL is my living. It is my main source of income and without it I would be hungry and homeless. I'm glad you can consider this all "fake" but since 100% of my sales are on the MP this equates to a 5% decrease in my weekly paycheck. I don't make a lot, 5% is a lot to me to give up for absolutely nothing. They have added no value and given me nothing for the extra money they are now taking from me.

The last time they did this it was supposedly for faster credit processing. And it was sweet, 24 hour turnover, for about 3 months, then it slowly drifted from 24 hours back to 2 days and now it's right back to 3 or 4 business days. exactly the same as before the raise in fees. They take more money and give no added value and they keep doing it to the creators who are here making this place what it is.

I'm gonna go start my own VW, but with Blackjack, and Hookers.

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14 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

How?

They just sell unscripted stuff wholesale. We sell mostly retail, which means for the life of a product we sell, we are responsible if it malfunctions in any way, as well as spending half an hour explaining how to open a box or find something in inventory.

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I am glad that they think of the creators and only raised 5% more just and kept 10%. Please understand, that 30% is industry standards. They charging way way less. I don't understand why people even complaining. People are using a service. If one not happy on 10% then unlist MP store and be happy with in-world store then. Imagine how Amazon, Google, Apple charge... way way more.

As a buyer, I personally feel its way way easier to buy stuff in Marketplace. Ex, you want to buy a dress, you can see multiple products together in marketplace.. you dont have to hop around multiple sims, no lag at all, no mesh heavy sims... and you can relax at one place and buy the desired products from MP.

As a creator, I feel 10% rise is nothing. Actually Linden did very good to create an online store like Marketplace. 100 times easier with direct deliveries from Inventory. No packing.. simply connect and sell. So why not pay for using the service. 10% is nothing at all. 

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1 hour ago, Diane Soulstar said:

I am glad that they think of the creators and only raised 5% more just and kept 10%. Please understand, that 30% is industry standards. They charging way way less. I don't understand why people even complaining. People are using a service. If one not happy on 10% then unlist MP store and be happy with in-world store then. Imagine how Amazon, Google, Apple charge... way way more.

As a buyer, I personally feel its way way easier to buy stuff in Marketplace. Ex, you want to buy a dress, you can see multiple products together in marketplace.. you dont have to hop around multiple sims, no lag at all, no mesh heavy sims... and you can relax at one place and buy the desired products from MP.

As a creator, I feel 10% rise is nothing. Actually Linden did very good to create an online store like Marketplace. 100 times easier with direct deliveries from Inventory. No packing.. simply connect and sell. So why not pay for using the service. 10% is nothing at all. 

I am going to preface this by saying...I really hope I don't offend you, and I really hope you don't see this as a personal attack, your post just gives me a good jumping off point, and it proves something I mentioned earlier about what people understand and don't understand about the issue many merchants have with the MP and these proposed changes.  if I do offend you, I do apologize in advance, I'm not trying to personally offend, but rather address specific points, not people. 

First 30% is not now, nor has it ever been an industry standard. There is no actual industry for what MP is- because sl itself is pretty damn unique in that regard, but even if there were...30% would be far higher than an industry standard. 15% would be a standard, but for the most part, it actually tends to be more along the 10%-15% range in comparable industries (though, again, hard to compare MP to something that it's not like).

You don't understand why people are complaining, because you're not reading the complaints. You're not alone, a lot of people aren't reading them, and part of that is because mine are too lengthy. It's hard to describe an actual problem in only a few words that everyone will "get". I keep telling people to please read all the threads, but seems no one wants to, and that's a huge part of the problem. This is about SO much more than just the fee increase. I see mostly people who are all for it and have no issue saying "I don't mind the fee, I don't know why people are complaining about the fee. The fee is necessary"....and I see very few people who have issues with the new changes saying anything about the fee. Most people don't give two craps about the fee. I don't know why supporters of the changes are putting so much damn emphasis on a friggen fee. But...sigh..that's my problem, not others' problem lol. (the fee is insignificant compared to the problems...hence why I take such issue with people continuing to mention the fee like it's all people should complain about). The other thread(s) talk about fees way more and why they're problematic for some, so those folks can probably offer you better insight on that bit. 

But, let's pretend for a moment that lots of others do have a problem with the fee. I'll try to explain this better. Since you want to compare it to amazon, google, etc..I'll do that too (not comparable, but I'll roll with it and behave myself). If you were a seller on one of those platforms, and the owners of the platforms decided to make the service they allow you to pay them to use(because they do, as they should)  sub-par, not function properly, get worse (than it's ever been), remove your items(or store entirely) without telling you or telling you how to fix it...then when you do figure out something is wrong they then tell you to find the problem item(s) yourself, make a ticket for each and sit and wait for the to decide if they can help you with it (typically not)..and then, to top it off, tell you they want you to pay them more for this.....are you gonna be happy?

No

No reasonable, intelligent person can see a problem like that and say "gee wiz ma, well by golly, let me pay these folks more because...oooo-weee they did a number on me, but they deserve more money to screw me over more". I mean, that sounds ridiculous, any way you slice it, lol. NO other platform, like the above mentioned, would EVER get away with ***** like this...none. People simply wouldn't have it, and the pitchforks would be out like light'nin bugs on a summer's eve. Those companies would be dragged through the proverbial mud, and, frankly, it would get nasty. (human nature being what it is)

You see, it's not JUST the fee, it's not even mostly the fee, it's not the amount, it's not that they want and need to charge more, it's not that people don't want to pay more. People are more than willing to pay these fees..most of us..even if they don't like it, might grumble slightly, they'll pay it. What they want, is the damn service they're paying for to function at a basic level, preferably better, and not constantly have more and more problems. At its base level, MP isn't functioning right (from a merchant standpoint only, individuals can decide if it's functioning right for them as shoppers, but merchants can ALL be plagued by the same problems, even if they may not currently be...we're all in that boat together), even when it's working, that doesn't mean it's working right. There are other things amiss that need addressed before people should be accepting any fee increase. Not because the fee increase isn't deserved, but because the service we have now, isn't worthy, and we should want better. We know better, we should do better, it's not a difficult concept. 

As for LL making the MP..bwaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaa

No

LL bought/took(different opinions vary on this, lol) the MP, shut down any possible other, much better., more functional version prior to now, so they could hold all the cards. I mean, good on them for it, it was a smart business move on their part. But the problem is, they don't know how to best run this particular asset of the company, and, it seems, aren't interested in ideas on how to improve it beyond some minor things that have almost no effect, to actually no effect, on the real problems. They help, sure, they improve, sometimes...but they haven't yet fixed a problem. They're making problems, it's really not hard to see that if people would read some of the threads about it. Super easy to find, super easy to read, super easy to see...something ain't right. 

I promise I'll try to be quiet on this issue now, it's just really frustrating to me that people can't see it's not always about the damn fee...sometimes, it's the friggen service itself. Sigh

I know I've been annoying about this issue, but it's one that really chaps my hide, especially after helping quite a few merchants, new and old, figure out wtf they did wrong to get their stuff removed....and it wasn't even them. It's hard to watch people so passionate about creating, and being a merchant, and getting up and running, or perhaps finally doing well....and then  BAM...proverbial peniii cacti to the face. I hate seeing people back off creating for stupid reasons. Creation has been sch a massive part of my slife, for over 11 years now. I want to see more creators, more merchants, more people selling on mp, more people buying on sl...not less. I can't do jack all for myself to help my own creation process continue, and it sucks, a lot, and I hate it, and I can't come to terms with it, lol, so I instead try to put my energy into others, and helping them, and getting them going, and...whatever I can, because it's something. It makes me angry to see asshatery like we've seen as of late that threatens the very livelihood of creation, and selling on the MP, I can't apologize for that, it just makes me angry, and very passionate about something I think is super important.  Maybe folks on the forums don't see it that way, but I know a hell of a lot of people inworld do, so, at least I know I'm not entirely crazy

(just mostly)

 

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5 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

I can't do jack all for myself to help my own creation process continue, and it sucks, a lot, and I hate it, and I can't come to terms with it, lol, so I instead try to put my energy into others, and helping them, and getting them going, and...whatever I can, because it's something. It makes me angry to see asshatery like we've seen as of late that threatens the very livelihood of creation, and selling on the MP, I can't apologize for that, it just makes me angry, and very passionate about something I think is super important.

That's very kind of you to help others even as your eyesight fails and you can't create yourself.

If I remember right, didn't most of your store disappear on the MP and you never relisted it?

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7 hours ago, Diane Soulstar said:

I am glad that they think of the creators and only raised 5% more just and kept 10%. Please understand, that 30% is industry standards. They charging way way less. I don't understand why people even complaining.

Please understand that you are comparing apples and oranges.

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8 hours ago, Artorius Constantine said:

I'm glad you can consider this all "fake"

I get it, it's the number of the pretend score that determines the amount of legal tender you are sent. But it's still all intangible bits and bytes until then.

It is all intangible Monopoly money until you cash-out and claim the credit into your bank account, PayPal or whatever. Only then does it become anything tangible. How you use the tangible portion is irrelevant because it is nothing more than zeros and ones on Linden Lab's systems until they send legal tender to you. Until that point, it's all pretend, a.k.a. fake.  I stand by my statements.

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10 minutes ago, Alyona Su said:
9 hours ago, Artorius Constantine said:

I'm glad you can consider this all "fake"

I get it, it's the number of the pretend score that determines the amount of legal tender you are sent. But it's still all intangible bits and bytes until then.

It is all intangible Monopoly money until you cash-out and claim the credit into your bank account, PayPal or whatever. Only then does it become anything tangible. How you use the tangible portion is irrelevant because it is nothing more than zeros and ones on Linden Lab's systems until they send legal tender to you. Until that point, it's all pretend, a.k.a. fake.  I stand by my statements.

That's not what he's taking issue with. You used this notion of "fakeness" to back up your position that nobody should "cry" about the fee increases. This is what you said:

"Overdue and necessary. Of course people are going to cry about it, even though it's all pretend token money that doesn't exist and has zero real world monetary value whatsoever. These are surcharges for using the system; the cost of doing business. Deal with it or quit."

Why should the fact that we are paid in funny money that is then converted to real money have anything to do with whether we should or should not be upset about receiving less of it through our very real efforts?

Edited by Luna Bliss
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14 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

That's not what he's taking issue with. You used this notion of "fakeness" to back up your position that nobody should "cry" about the fee increases. This is what you said:

"Overdue and necessary. Of course people are going to cry about it, even though it's all pretend token money that doesn't exist and has zero real world monetary value whatsoever. These are surcharges for using the system; the cost of doing business. Deal with it or quit."

Why should the fact that we are paid in funny money that is then converted to real money have anything to do with whether we should or should not be upset about receiving less of it through our very real efforts?

👍

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9 hours ago, Diane Soulstar said:

I am glad that they think of the creators and only raised 5% more just and kept 10%. Please understand, that 30% is industry standards. They charging way way less. I don't understand why people even complaining. People are using a service. If one not happy on 10% then unlist MP store and be happy with in-world store then. Imagine how Amazon, Google, Apple charge... way way more.

As a buyer, I personally feel its way way easier to buy stuff in Marketplace. Ex, you want to buy a dress, you can see multiple products together in marketplace.. you dont have to hop around multiple sims, no lag at all, no mesh heavy sims... and you can relax at one place and buy the desired products from MP.

As a creator, I feel 10% rise is nothing. Actually Linden did very good to create an online store like Marketplace. 100 times easier with direct deliveries from Inventory. No packing.. simply connect and sell. So why not pay for using the service. 10% is nothing at all. 

Lol Apple and other companies have billions of customers worldwide while SL only has 40k active users logged in at the moment on a good day. Last 5% was announced just in May this year so its been raised 2 times within the same year. WTG

Edited by Jeny Howlett
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5 minutes ago, Jeny Howlett said:

Lol Apple and other companies have billions of customers worldwide while SL only has 40k active users logged in a good day. Last 5% was announced just in May this year so its been raised 2 times within the same year. WTG

Concurrency means online at that moment, not for an entire day. 

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Someone else (on the SL reddit) did the math so I didn't have to.

From a $20 USD customer buy in, the creator receives just $13.08 after cashing out (Assuming 100% MP sales).

Just 65.4%. LL absorbed 34.6%, or nearly $7 of that money... Over one third.

Add in Premium, rent and or tier, upload fees etc., easily lowers the end result to 60%. That means LL is skimming 40% off the top. 10% MORE than what they call the "Industry average".

Edited by Artorius Constantine
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Thanks Artorius, for posting those figures.

The disturbing part is we don't know when the fee increases will stop. We know this has been the plan since a few years ago when Ebbe was shocked that sellers take $60 million per annum out of SL. His idea at the time was to redistribute it by taking away from sellers and making land cheaper. But for me, the L500 a week savings in rent and the increase in prim limit is a very small compensation.

 

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Just noticed what Tari had mentioned, and that new automatic unlisting keyword set is spicy. LL seems to be taking an anti-creator standpoint in their actions. We're effectively freelancers working for the grid and by extension LL, but I think the experiment is no longer as important to them as squeezing SL dry until we're all gone - because it is not growing due to lack of advertisement. I'll always hold the opinion Sansar was a waste of money that everyone is now paying for, and it has hastened SL's demise without being the replacement it was perhaps intended to be.

Edited by Desudesudesuka
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Maybe it will encourage inworld stores. HippoVend, which competed with CasperVend, went out of business a few months ago. Maybe someone could find the owner, buy up the rights to that system, and go on from there. Competition is good.

In-world stores could be more active places. Mostly they're just static displays. Do better. There are avatar bots that can model clothing. A clothing store should have one or two of those, showing off the various outfits on sale. Customers should be able to ask for an outfit to be modeled so they can have a close look. Store systems should be able to read an avatar and know what will fit it, to help customers. That would give in-world stores an edge over LL's web-based marketplace, with its tiny, cluttered product pictures.

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I have been thinking about this increase over the last few days -- in part because there are some possible changes going on over in Sansar too. Now my situation is different from most folks. I have never been trying to put the kids through college so SL money was always "extra" money.  Now that I am no longer cashing out (Tilia) I will always have more linden dollars than I can ever easily spend.  

 

That being said, I make it a big point to be true to myself -- both in RL and virtual.  So I asked myself how I would handle this situation IF I was still cashing out to Paypal. 

 

I am not necessarily against the price increase, but I do see that for folks not in the US especially it is just one more burden and over forty percent total  take out really IS too much in my mind.  I also would like to see a return to inworld shopping and the fun factor that was part of that time.  So here is what I am planning on doing.

 

I am going to leave my inworld prices the same. I am going to raise my prices on the Marketplace 10 percent so that for "me" the net is equal.   I am also going to give 10 percent discounts to anyone spending over 1000 lindens in a single SL day.  

 

This gives buyers a choice -- and a discount bonus if they so choose and also keeps the cost spread across all the citizenship NOT just the creators --- who of course ARE MAKING THE WORLD HERE.  

 

I am not trying to start a movement LOL.  I am just telling other creators what "I" am planning on doing. Everyone  has different circumstances, but this is the best mover for ME so that I still feel happy about keeping my store open. 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, animats said:

Maybe it will encourage inworld stores. HippoVend, which competed with CasperVend, went out of business a few months ago. Maybe someone could find the owner, buy up the rights to that system, and go on from there. Competition is good.

In-world stores could be more active places. Mostly they're just static displays. Do better. There are avatar bots that can model clothing. A clothing store should have one or two of those, showing off the various outfits on sale. Customers should be able to ask for an outfit to be modeled so they can have a close look. Store systems should be able to read an avatar and know what will fit it, to help customers. That would give in-world stores an edge over LL's web-based marketplace, with its tiny, cluttered product pictures.

 

 

Hello, are you new in SL? Or just new to clothing?

 

There is absolutely zero need for bots to "model" outfits,  because if i'm in the store to shop, i pick up demos and model them on MYSELF, with the exact same ease as some store mannequin, except much, much better. Many stores also have their items mesh rezzed, so i can have a look at the textures and model without having to demo it first. But that's just clothing stores. There's plenty of other types of stores. Furniture and item stores usually have their items rezzed out.

So what you are saying, is that you would like store owners to re-invent the wheel, just slightly less round.

 

When looking for furniture, it's almost impossible to get a good idea from the marketplace anyways, since animations need to be tested, etc. Practically speaking, i don't need the stores to be any more "active" than they already are. It's already a lot to rez, and i might only be spending 5 minutes there anyways, realizing they don't have what i want to buy. If it takes me longer than 5 minutes to rez and find what i was looking for, i might be moving along anyways. There's nothing wrong with stores looking nice, but if i'm there to buy a couch, i want to buy a couch.

 

Either way, LL is making sure they are getting their cut out of creators pockets, no matter what you do. Don't like to pay 10% for the marketplace? Fine, have an inworld shop then, pay for the land... Don't want to host your own store? Fine, sell on the marketplace...

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22 minutes ago, Lexbot Sinister said:

There is absolutely zero need for bots to "model" outfits,  because if i'm in the store to shop, i pick up demos and model them on MYSELF, with the exact same ease as some store mannequin, except much, much better. Many stores also have their items mesh rezzed, so i can have a look at the textures and model without having to demo it first. But that's just clothing stores. There's plenty of other types of stores. Furniture and item stores usually have their items rezzed out

it can be not quite zero.  In the same way home and garden places have rezzers

a bot store mannequin could work the same way, to get an idea of how the outfit will display in 3D. Click a Console button to rez the outfit on the mannequin. Click another Console button to see the textures.  Click again for next outfit.  When think ok I like, then click the Demo button to get

the mannequin is doable as a NPC, but I would most likely go with a bot account, using Linden Experience and Temp Attach. This way all the outfits can be stored in and managed from the Console

it would most likely cut down on the number of demos we take. As when see it in 3D as opposed to 2D then we have a better idea.  Being able to change garment textures I think would be quite useful. As sometimes 2D photo isn't quite the same as when seen in 3D on the garment

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On 11/23/2019 at 12:10 AM, Diane Soulstar said:

I am glad that they think of the creators and only raised 5% more just and kept 10%. Please understand, that 30% is industry standards. They charging way way less. I don't understand why people even complaining. People are using a service. If one not happy on 10% then unlist MP store and be happy with in-world store then. Imagine how Amazon, Google, Apple charge... way way more.

As a buyer, I personally feel its way way easier to buy stuff in Marketplace. Ex, you want to buy a dress, you can see multiple products together in marketplace.. you dont have to hop around multiple sims, no lag at all, no mesh heavy sims... and you can relax at one place and buy the desired products from MP.

As a creator, I feel 10% rise is nothing. Actually Linden did very good to create an online store like Marketplace. 100 times easier with direct deliveries from Inventory. No packing.. simply connect and sell. So why not pay for using the service. 10% is nothing at all. 

"Standards"

As if the MP has standards.

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2 hours ago, Mollymews said:

it can be not quite zero.  In the same way home and garden places have rezzers

a bot store mannequin could work the same way, to get an idea of how the outfit will display in 3D. Click a Console button to rez the outfit on the mannequin. Click another Console button to see the textures.  Click again for next outfit.  When think ok I like, then click the Demo button to get

the mannequin is doable as a NPC, but I would most likely go with a bot account, using Linden Experience and Temp Attach. This way all the outfits can be stored in and managed from the Console

it would most likely cut down on the number of demos we take. As when see it in 3D as opposed to 2D then we have a better idea.  Being able to change garment textures I think would be quite useful. As sometimes 2D photo isn't quite the same as when seen in 3D on the garment

 

Hi and welcome to Second Life!

 

Store mannequins have not been needed since the invention of rigged mesh and demos.  There is zero need for a store mannequin to demo clothes for me, that i'm just a second later supposed to demo myself.  The store mannequin doesn't have my AO, and i won't see if the rigging is acceptable or not. Also, considering how many clothes need alpha cuts to be activated on the mesh bodies, your bot would need to know how to use the different mesh bodies HUD's and alpha settings.

 

But you know what store mannequins can increase? Customer complaints to the creator, after not demoing the clothes on their own avatar, and looking at the store mannequin instead.

 

Item rezzers are great for items that are not supposed to be rigged and worn on your body.

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Creators need to start moving inworld, but I've seen malls shut down as things go in the opposite direction due to the issues of management and rental. Despite server costs dropping like a rock LL is still fleecing people for renting servers, which they now rent off the cloud so it's ever cheaper for them. Where's the money going? Gotta be Sansar and champagne. There is such a thing as ripping people off too much when you're trying to run shop a market ecosystem and metaverse. LL sure likes to brag about the work users have done while they undermine it. But it really is their loss, because we'll all be just as skilled and creative when we're forced to move on. LL doesn't create content, there's nothing for them if they chase creators away. And a good way to do that would be reducing the profit margins from a hobby you can barely profit off of to literal slave labour. Doing it solely for fun becomes less viable with the insane land costs and declining amount of people to interact with.

A new creator will have to pay out of pocket to host an inworld store and in my experience the volume compared to the MP is lacking, it won't be worth it.

Edited by Desudesudesuka
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