MP fees raising to 10% per sale. Thoughts?

[Alexxis DeCuir]

https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/3016-the-return-of-last-names-and-changes-to-marketplace-events-premium/?fbclid=IwAR1rj4aTLWqyUSMPQJ0Tp3F9FR3hBDGE0o4RQ4hV1w1t7LNjn5zGz7cCs2E

Thoughts on the mp fees doubling to 10% per sale?

Edited November 21, 2019 by Alexxis DeCuir

[Peony Sweetwater]

I’ve been expecting this for a while.

What I had hoped is they they would have made more fixes to both the merchant and customer side before charging the increased fees. It makes the increase much easier to swallow if you can see the benefit now. As it stands, without a better sales platform, I’m not going to get increased sales to offset the increased cost, especially when I’m also having to cover increased premium fees and L$ exchange fees that have come in the last year or so.

[Artorius Constantine]

llGiveOpinion(Another screw to the people that actually create the things you see, wear and sit on in world, and the people who work every day to make it a better place. Instead of the yearly raise an employee would get we get a Semi-Yearly decrease in pay. I guess it beats getting fired like other LL employees have recently.

"Others charge more", but others don't charge people to buy play money, charge people to use the play money, charge people to change the play money back to real money and charge yet again to take it out.

LL gets 4 slices of the pie, we as creators, get what's left and have no choice if we want to keep cooking in their kitchen. Every time they make an announcement it's about making each slice bigger for themselves. Capitalism at work, they get more, we get less, if you don't like it leave.

LL seems very adept at shooting itself in the foot yet it keeps on limping along. Rather than try to attract new blood they choose to drain more from the old bodies still hanging around in the dungeon. Someday LL, all those old bodies are gonna dry up. Someone is going to open up a new world with content creation, an economy, and spend money to get new players. Until then I guess we can "pay to play or go away" huh?);

Edited November 21, 2019 by Artorius Constantine
can't count

[Desudesudesuka]

Making it less attractive to bother selling things in SL. It's already hard to make more than pocket change doing what amounts to working for LL for free. Reminder the marketplace is a service they bought, and then sat on for years without making it any better despite the influx of cash they get to skim from. Now they have decided to try to compete with existing inworld vendors, yet there is no way in hell I or most anyone else would want to pay them a commission for something easily done for free or enabled via a one-time-cost.  I would rather pay money to a third party service than let LL rip  me off for subpar services as they've always done. It's just rate hike after rate hike without reflecting this in any improvements for users. Even if LL claims to improve the marketplace, it's the residents making all the sims, all the items, and they piggyback on all this work with (mis)management. I've basically given up on the idea of making a profit to cash out because of the game's hastening decline and unfriendliness to creators. I can't imagine many small time creators like myself or new ones wanting to get into it or ramp their game up at this point.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Desudesudesuka

[Coffee Pancake]

Quote

Apple and Google charge a 30% commission on sales in their app stores

THAT'S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT THING

[Kyrah Abattoir]

Unless my math is wrong (and it very well could be) the total merchand fees are now:

Marketplace: (sale fee+exchange fee+cashout fee) 13% -> 17.5% (after the change)

In-world: (exchange fee+ cashout fee) 8.3%

 

I mean yeah 17.5% is not 30%, sure, but the next time you double marketplace commission (and we know you will), it will be.

Let's not forget

I guess i should be thankful that they waited SIX WHOLE MONTHS.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Kyrah Abattoir

[Tari Landar]

I have no problem with fee increases, they are a necessary part of life and business. I get this and I respect this, 100%. Even if I don't like fee increases, they're necessary, so I wouldn't harp on that. 

I do not respect LL for making this move before fixing the most recent(and longest lasting) issue on the MP that has to do with things being removed, how the no no words lists are being handled, and whoever the hell is at that helm. In fact, I'm downright pissed off that they'd even consider making ANY changes to the MP at all before A-really addressing the issue truthfully, and B-taking steps to rectify it.  Many others may never understand why it's a problem, especially people who aren't merchants or haven't seen this discussed the countless damn times we've discussed it. 

I don't really give a rat's left nut about any of the other stuff. I'm pissed about this issue which has caused things to get removed needlessly, whole sections of stores, whole damn stores...all because LL doesn't know wtf it's doing with this area, isn't willing to  even admit maybe they don't know, and is hiding behind the guise of "it's to follow copyright and trademark laws", when it is 100% not. It has always been an issue, but is growing exponentially, rather than getting better.

No other changes to the MP-literally NONE, in any capacity, are going to make a damn difference when more and more merchants start feeling the squeeze of this...I don't even know what the hell to call it anymore to be honest. I've discussed it ad nauseum and I doubt anyone wants to continue treading it. But I can tell you I will continue to help other merchants who fall victim to this horse*****ery figure out what they did "wrong" in LL's eyes so that they can continue to sell on the MP, I will continue to stand side by side with merchants, no matter their size or contribution to the grid, and I will continue to hold LL at the level I believe they should be in regards to fixing a very prominent and problematic issue...even if LL does as I suspect they will, and never actually fixes it. (they've kind of already given up on it at this point, as is evidenced by its exponential growth recently). 

I don't normally harp on LL for most issues..but this one, I will fight to the death on, because it is 100% on LL, not merchants, and it's 100% preventable too. The fact that it's grown so quickly is evidence that something is being done wrong, which once wasn't, and they're headed in the wrong direction, too. LL need to back off any further changes on the MP until this is properly addressed, even if they can't fix it immediately...at least give us proof you're trying. LL doesn't seem to care about merchants, at all. We may be just a tiny part of their financial pie, but we're still int here for crepe's sake..give us more credit. LL DOES make a lot of money off the mp, despite what some people (and perhaps LL) actually say. 

I suspect this increased fee is probably to account for all the income they're not going to get because they've done flubbed up and pissed off most of the people willing to pay the fee increase. They're accounting for lost revenue before it even happens, which tells me this problem I'm talking about is going to get much worse in 2020. I hope they have their big people panties on. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Tari Landar
ooo anger makes for bad typos

[Natasha Petrichor]

I haven't taken part in these forums in like a decade, but it's comforting to see that I'm not the only one infuriated by this.  Doubling the MP commission is irritating at best, and makes me even less interested in putting anything cheap on the Marketplace.  Especially since they had the nerve to compare themselves to mobile app stores, which is a flawed comparison on multiple levels:

1.  Most non-free mobile apps carry a per-sale pricetag higher than most SL Marketplace items, especially for sellers who specialize in smaller items; 30% of $1-5 is more tolerable than 10% of $0.05-0.25.

2.  An average mobile app, even paid apps, will have higher sales volume and higher visibility than most SL Marketplace sellers' entire stores, by an order of magnitude, so a commission increase will be felt a LOT more for all SL Marketplace sellers except for the highest-volume big-name brands.

3.  Mobile apps have access to additional revenue streams (like running their own subscriptions and in-app purchases, and showing ads), and while most of those are ethically questionable at best, it can't be denied that they exist.  SL Marketplace sellers don't have access to any of that, all we can do is sell a thing.

4.  Not all SL Marketplace sellers have infinite copies of their products to sell, and sellers who don't will probably be hit extra-hard by this, since they're usually low-volume sellers with a fixed number of times they can sell each item.  And while I personally find it frustrating to sift through gacha reseller listings while browsing, it's a legitimate usage of the Marketplace and I'll be the first to defend it.

A better comparison would be services like Ebay or Etsy, where 5% (the current SL MP commission) is a very fair, reasonable, and competitive amount for all sellers, and where 10% would be ridiculous.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Natasha Petrichor

[Kyrah Abattoir]

Should I even mention Patreon's fees?

[ChinRey]

3 hours ago, Peony Swee*****er said:

I’ve been expecting this for a while.

LL did actually announce it quite a while ago so it shouldn't be a surprise to anybody who watches the forums.

 

3 hours ago, Peony Swee*****er said:

What I had hoped is they they would have made more fixes to both the merchant and customer side before charging the increased fees.

That's the key. Other online stores charge much higher comissions than MP but they also offer far superior services. What LL is essentially doing is charge restaurant price for a frozen pizza with expired best by date.

But we're stuck of course. The SL MP is the ultimate vendor lock-in. EIther you sell there on whatever terms LL dictates or you don't sell at all.

[Marx Alvord]

Linden labs has not earned this grab. At all. They want to compare themselves to "other" marketplaces? Okay so wheres your live desk help.? Where you can talk to a real person sitting behind a pc? Wheres the product testing that other virtual stores offer that help stamp out corruption and theft. This of course require they actually hire a real staff of people. They will not. Wheres the streamlined help desk features to help our products get better mentioned and shown other than the free for all bullcrap ugly marketplace SLX they still have in place today? 

Linden you should be ashamed of yourself! You have no where earned this money grab. 

[bigmoe Whitfield]

14 minutes ago, Marx Alvord said:

Linden labs has not earned this grab. At all. They want to compare themselves to "other" marketplaces? Okay so wheres your live desk help.? Where you can talk to a real person sitting behind a pc? Wheres the product testing that other virtual stores offer that help stamp out corruption and theft. This of course require they actually hire a real staff of people. They will not. Wheres the streamlined help desk features to help our products get better mentioned and shown other than the free for all bullcrap ugly marketplace SLX they still have in place today? 

Linden you should be ashamed of yourself! You have no where earned this money grab. 

They have live chat,  you have to be premium to use it.    Testing product is called demos,  some creators do not do it, but most of them do.

10% is easy to live with,  30% I would choke on.

[Luna Bliss]

[Marx Alvord]

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Marx Alvord

[Marx Alvord]

12 minutes ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

They have live chat,  you have to be premium to use it.    Testing product is called demos,  some creators do not do it, but most of them do.

10% is easy to live with,  30% I would choke on.

Live chat is a joke. Everyone knows it. Testing products? Anyone that has ever had been a Merchant at other similar sites knows that every product is Tested from submittal to release for theft procurement, surety content and ease of use. Also they usually come with even eula of some type. Obviously you have never been a merchant at any other marketplace! I.E Testing IS NOT the same thing as Demo. Not sure  why you would compare the two. My post had nothing to do with whats "easy to live with" rather more than an in your face money grab by Linden labs! Pure n simple.

[Coffee Pancake]

46 minutes ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

10% is easy to live with,  30% I would choke on.

After all they burnt on Sansar .. doubling our fees is pretty hard to swallow.

I wonder what they will be spending the extra cash on, please let it be another investor friendly buzzword infested white elephant no one cares about /s

[Chic Aeon]

7 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

I suspect this increased fee is probably to account for all the income they're not going to get because they've done flubbed up and pissed off most of the people willing to pay the fee increase. They're accounting for lost revenue before it even happens, which tells me this problem I'm talking about is going to get much worse in 2020. I hope they have their big people panties on. 

There are some pretty obvious "sinks" coming in the future (namely Spring) and this likely has something to do with the the timing of the fee raise.   I am OK with the 10 percent fee and even though I am not really IN business any longer (not cashing out to Paypal) I am pretty sure I would still be OK with it if I WERE back in "real money mode" like the previous decade. 

 

That being said, creators still have choices. They can raise their prices on the Marketplace to compensate for the fee  --- letting the buyers pay the extra. This has been discussed numerous times here over the last couple of years with many buyers stating that they are FINE paying that extra.   

They can LOWER the prices inworld making it more attractive for folks to buy in that manner (thus cutting SL out of ALL their sales profits). 

They can of course stop creating and close their stores in protest.   

 

I personally think most will just let things ride and pay the extra fee.  Of course I ended up being VERY wrong on how much the Tilia changes would impact things -- leading many more people than I thought would exit --- exiting.  So obviously I am not always a good judge of logic versus human nature. 

 

I haven't decided what I will do. I have no real reason to raise prices since I am not actually USING the money I am making these days (or not much) so I may lower store prices as I WOULD like to see a return to inworld shopping (being an old creator who remembers those days).  

 

So everyone will need to decide what will work better for them. I AM happy that LL figured out that raising any MORE than 10 percent would be a VERY BAD PLAN. They don't always have the best vision when looking at the populous that they obviously don't understand all that well :D.   So it will be interesting to see what happens. 

[Pavon2]

It's hard for me to say that and I would rather not... but I'm afraid all the fees raising has little to do with getting "extra cash" for LL, making more money etc. They probably do it because they have to, to make Second Life survive at all.

[Tari Landar]

1 hour ago, Chic Aeon said:

They can LOWER the prices inworld making it more attractive for folks to buy in that manner (thus cutting SL out of ALL their sales profits). 

 

I don't take issue with the fee increase amounts, regardless as to whether or not anyone else does, and I don't judge people who do take issue with the fee increases because odds are good they have reason to. I take issue with them doing anything at all with the MP other than fix the most important, and quite disastrous for all issue that plagues us the most right now. I also take issue with any new fees being associated with MP until this issue is not only addressed, and I mean ACTUALLY addressed, but also fixed. I would 100% support a fee increase (to 10%, no higher, ever, and I do mean ever) if LL could prove that actually give two *****s about this issue. It may sound blunt, but really, that's what it's going to boil down to for a lot of merchants and whether or not they support new fees. I suspect MOST probably would...if LL again, showed some thought process behind any of this. I don't suspect most people would have any issue at all, even if maybe they didn't like the fee increase at first.

It's LL's blatant disregard for a problem they created(and merchants are absolutely powerless to avoid, or fix) that chaps my hide. I think a lot of people are a bit too sheepish to rock the boat, because their sales are their sl livelihood, so I get it. They're not nearly as likely s call a spade a spade, or in this case, call LL on their *****.  I'll call LL on it, because it's a massive, steaming pile of manure. LL's piss poor financial decisions regarding sansar aren't the MP merchants' problem to solve. 

But....the above quoted is a disallowed listing practice and can get listings flagged. If you charge more on MP, you can get your item flagged under inflated listing. I don't know how often it happens,or rather how often LL actually does anything at all about it. But I know that LL themselves have recommended people flag items with inflated prices compared to inworld right here in these forums actually, even Dakota has told people to flag them.

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Tari Landar

[RohanaRaven Zerbino]

11 minutes ago, Tari Landar said:

But....the above quoted is a disallowed listing practice and can get listings flagged. If you charge more on MP, you can get your item flagged under inflated listing. I don't know how often it happens,or rather how often LL actually does anything at all about it. But I know that LL themselves have recommended people flag items with inflated prices compared to inworld right here in these forums actually, even Dakota has told people to flag them.

Actually not anymore Tari, here is the link:

 

[Tari Landar]

8 minutes ago, RohanaRaven Zerbino said:

Actually not anymore Tari, here is the link:

 

I put very little faith in this actually being enforced like this, given that Dakota herself has told people to flag these things in threads since the change was made, particularly quite ornery ones that ended up getting removed because...well, some people got a wee bit too ornery in them (doesn't happen super often in the merchant forums, but it does happen).

Even if it is the policy now (I thought it was as well, also because of the same thread and the blog post it refers to), it still has buck all to do with the actual issues at hand (ok maybe just imo, lol)  I still wouldn't give this advice to any merchant on the basis that LL can't even keep their own ***** straight and could change things again at a moment's notice if they so chose (which I respect, their mp, their rules)

 

 

[Kyrah Abattoir]

Id love better metrics on listing enhancements, but I don't see them happening as it would likely REDUCE the amount of enhancements sold by LL. It's one of the big rules of advertising.

On a sidenote, I'm looking at my patreon account and wondering if i should start using this more, offering some kind of in-world reward, rather than using L$ at all.

[Isilmeriel]

I wrote this back in June when LL doubled the processing fee. Turns out I was being overly optimistic thinking it would be an annual fee increase, instead of twice in under 6 months. Judging from the wording, LL is shooting straight for that 30% cut as their end goal. The problem with this increasingly regular fee hike is that as a creator, I now expect a diminishing return for new products down the line. Additionally, these changes add to a sense of instability which further erodes the confidence in SL market and longevity. I don't speak for anyone other than myself, but I've felt increasingly unmotivated to devote time for commercial SL projects. 

 

Quote

That's why this fee bump is worrying. Not because of the 2.5% itself, but just the business-as-usual tone of the announcement and the recent fee hike in 2018. Feels like annual fee hike is going to be the norm now (quoting from the announcement, "our ongoing efforts") until SL finally dies. 

They will keep raising taxes on us because they can, and there's not really anything we can do to discourage them realistically. Would creators quit SL if they increase fees by 3% or 5% every year? Eventually, maybe, after being milked for a few more years. But that's tomorrow's problem, for LL.

 

[Alyona Su]

18 hours ago, Alexxis DeCuir said:

Thoughts on the mp fees doubling to 10% per sale?

Overdue and necessary. Of course people are going to cry about it, even though it's all pretend token money that doesn't exist and has zero real world monetary value whatsoever. These are surcharges for using the system; the cost of doing business. Deal with it or quit.

For all who cry foul about it, do what RL merchants do: add those fake fees to the fake  prices of your fake wares. There already are many SL merchants who charge more for their Market Place items than they do for the in-world vendor-sales counterparts. It's called "adapt and move on".

I, for one, have no issue, nay, am very willing to pay a little more (higher price) for the convenience of buying from Market Place than to suffer the crazy time and effort dealing with lag and hunting down the right product in world. Though, if you actually say in the MP description that there is a L$250 discount for purchasing in world then I may actually consider doing that (That would be the threshold before I even considered it.)

I'll feel the same way when that Market Place surcharge goes to 15% as well. And for the record: I also am a Market Place merchant so these fees apply to me as well and adding that cost to my items is exactly what I intend to do. So I'm going to deal with it by adapting and moving on, just as the rest of you should.

Edit to add: Those of you who react with "confused" have no business trying to do business. LOL

Edited November 22, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Wulfie Reanimator]

16 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

THAT'S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT THING

How?