BOM & Advanced Lighting Model

[Roguerie]

This is about Bakes on Mesh (BOM) and Advanced Lighting Model. Perhaps this discussion has been brought up before, the search didn't come up for me. Is anyone not bothered by the fact that we can't quite use BOM with Advanced Lighting Model? I'm talking about the fact that I can't use shadows, light effects; I can't increase gloss/shine on the body and the magnificent new BOM skin disappears to show the default body skin. Let's say I'm using Slink HG, the body's default skin work fine but as soon as I attempt to use a skin I purchased from another creator, my skin only shows the default if I switch ALM on for Head and Body.

Considering the effort skin creators and their customers have put into using textures that only appear on Advanced Lighting Model for a multitude of things such as: high quality photos, looking at a detailed scenery when visiting a beautiful sim, the fine texture of a dress. Those things we can't quite use if ALM is turned off at all times.. are we giving that up? I'm actually surprised to not see anyone mention this or I haven't searched enough.

Is that something that Linden Lab needs to add or is that a feature that needs to be implemented by the skin creator in order to see it on ALM?

 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Roguerie
Edited to correct a typo.

[DilliDallagio]

I cannot say for certain about BoM and ALM in general but what I can say is it is a known fact that when using the BoM applier on Altamura bodies, the BoM layer does not support materials effects. Because of that I choose not to use BoM as my avatar "skin" is actually the default avatar skin with shine effects added coupled with an Omega tattoo layer that is materials enabled. Were I to go BoM with my Altamura body, I would lose the material effects that makes the skin unique.

After doing a little more digging here in the Community fora, I see there is an entire grouping of topics for Bakes on Mesh: https://community.secondlife.com/forums/forum/355-bakes-on-mesh/

Edited November 18, 2019 by DilliDallagio
Added link to existing BoM Community topics

[Roguerie]

11 minutes ago, DilliDallagio said:

I cannot say for certain about BoM and ALM in general but what I can say is it is a known fact that when using the BoM applier on Altamura bodies, the BoM layer does not support materials effects. Because of that I choose not to use BoM as my avatar "skin" is actually the default avatar skin with shine effects added coupled with an Omega tattoo layer that is materials enabled. Were I to go BoM with my Altamura body, I would lose the material effects that makes the skin unique.

I have seen new or updated skins with exquisite quality without Advanced Lighting Model turned on but my issue is that you would still other things such as clothing or a hairstyle that is best seen with ALM on, now you'd have to deny yourself that option because paired with your new BOM skin, it's mismatched hell. One requires ALM off, the other is best seen with  ALM on: I really do not look forward to that. I am one of those who like to have things look in order, not mismatched or two-tones whether ALM is being used or not. I'm uncertain it will be implemented and whose responsibility it is (Linden Lab or Creator).

I see a rush of excitement toward newly released skins and makeups but each time, the lovely item is blank slate or back to default when I check ALM. I really love using my ALM, I wonder how many share my concern or am I making too much of this ?

[DilliDallagio]

A lot of people, and I am guessing creators among them, share your concern. They are all voicing their opinions and preferences of in that grouping of topics I linked to earlier. As I am not a creator I have no idea if what you seek can best be handled by LL or by the creators themselves. What little I do know about the baking servers employed by LL is that they are not designed, at present (?), to handle textures that contain components of the materials layers that are seen with ALM turned on.

Take a look at those other discussions. From the little I skimmed there are many over there discussing what you brought up here.

[Theresa Tennyson]

37 minutes ago, Roguerie said:

I have seen new or updated skins with exquisite quality without Advanced Lighting Model turned on but my issue is that you would still other things such as clothing or a hairstyle that is best seen with ALM on, now you'd have to deny yourself that option because paired with your new BOM skin, it's mismatched hell. One requires ALM off, the other is best seen with  ALM on: I really do not look forward to that. I am one of those who like to have things look in order, not mismatched or two-tones whether ALM is being used or not. I'm uncertain it will be implemented and whose responsibility it is (Linden Lab or Creator).

I see a rush of excitement toward newly released skins and makeups but each time, the lovely item is blank slate or back to default when I check ALM. I really love using my ALM, I wonder how many share my concern or am I making too much of this ?

BOM skins don't require ALM off. I always have ALM on and BOM works fine with it.

How textures work in Second Life: There are three separate textures that might be used on any given part of an object.

1) The diffuse texture, which is what we traditionally think of as a "texture", which has the colors and transparency for each surface.

2) The normal map, which describes the texture of a surface.

3) The specular map, which describes the reflectivity/shinyness of a surface.

They are handled by completely separate textures - they're not "components" of a single thing.

Normal maps and specular maps are only usable with ALM on. BOM only applies the diffuse texture, but the normal and specular maps can be applied exactly the same way they are now. You don't have to "turn them off" to use BOM. You can use BOM to set the colors of your skin and a regular applier to set texture and shininess. BOM skins are the "default body skin" - that's the entire reason for the existence of the project. If changing ALM changes the colors of your skin your viewer is broken.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Theresa Tennyson

[Parhelion Palou]

Long ago in a thread far, far away (as in I'm not going to look for it), someone stated that Linden Lab had said BOM textures would not include materials -- just the diffuse texture without the normal and specular maps. It may be that merging materials textures is too difficult or gives bad results, but that's just my guess. It was pointed out as a reason why appliers wouldn't go away when BOM came out.

It took a long time for BOM to be released and apparently most people either didn't know about that, or forgot.

By the way, ALM (Advanced Lighting Model) has nothing to do with this other than you need to have ALM on to see materials textures.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Parhelion Palou
ETA: I type too slow.

[Roguerie]

19 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

BOM skins don't require ALM off. I always have ALM on and BOM works fine with it.

How textures work in Second Life: There are three separate textures that might be used on any given part of an object.

1) The diffuse texture, which is what we traditionally think of as a "texture", which has the colors and transparency for each surface.

2) The normal map, which describes the texture of a surface.

3) The specular map, which describes the reflectivity/shinyness of a surface.

They are handled by completely separate textures - they're not "components" of a single thing.

Normal maps and specular maps are only usable with ALM on. BOM only applies the diffuse texture, but the normal and specular maps can be applied exactly the same way they are now. You don't have to "turn them off" to use BOM. You can use BOM to set the colors of your skin and a regular applier to set texture and shininess. BOM skins are the "default body skin" - that's the entire reason for the existence of the project. If changing ALM changes the colors of your skin your viewer is broken.

I specified in my post that I tried/worn 3 different skins, from 3 different creators who are not new to the skin design industry, each BOM skin worn didn't appear on the BOM body & head worn. I am not referring to the default body skins that a lot of mesh bodies naturally provide in the hud.

Try not to make it seem like I am not making things up, this isn't helping. I'm glad it's showing on your end while using ALM, perhaps you have the default body skins on? I don't know. I know for a fact that a lot of people use ALM, I can't see all the beautiful features when I use BOM. If you don't care for ALM, say that. I'll understand lol but personally I use it all the time, I hang out with a few that have it on all the time because they don't like to look at flat textures.

BOM is amazing but it also has a mojor pull-back for materials.

12 minutes ago, Parhelion Palou said:

By the way, ALM (Advanced Lighting Model) has nothing to do with this other than you need to have ALM on to see materials textures.

I use materials in almost everything on second life. I didn't say that BOM wasn't working. I stated that I would need to no longer use materials for things such as photography with shine/shadow effect because my BOM Body doesn't appear when ALM is checked.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Roguerie

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 minutes ago, Roguerie said:

I specified in my post that I tried/worn 3 different skins, from 3 different creators who are not new to the skin design industry, each BOM skin worn didn't appear on the BOM body & head worn. I am not referring to the default body skins that a lot of mesh bodies naturally provide in the hud.

Try not to make it seem like I am not making things up, this isn't helping. I'm glad it's showing on your end while using ALM, perhaps you have the default body skins on? I don't know. I know for a fact that a lot of people use ALM, I can't see all the beautiful features when I use BOM. If you don't care for ALM, say that. I'll understand lol but personally I use it all the time, I hang out with a few that have it on all the time because they don't like to look at flat textures.

BOM is amazing but it also has a mojor pull-back for materials.

I use materials in almost everything on second life. I didn't say that BOM wasn't working. I stated that I would need to no longer use materials for things such as photography with shine/shadow effect because my BOM Body doesn't appear when ALM is checked.

What are you doing and what are you seeing? I'm not saying you're "making something up", but a properly working viewer will not do what you seem to be saying. BOM skins won't appear with ALM off and disappear with ALM on.

When you're using BOM you need to use system skins and not appliers once BOM is activated. If you bought a "BOM skin" that included an applier that applier is for use when you aren't using BOM. You need to wear the "system skin" that's included to use BOM.

Also, when you're using BOM you don't need to and in fact can't use the full-body alphas that come with mesh bodies and heads. If your body is invisible that may be what's happening.

 

[Roguerie]

16 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

What are you doing and what are you seeing? I'm not saying you're "making something up", but a properly working viewer will not do what you seem to be saying. BOM skins won't appear with ALM off and disappear with ALM on.

When you're using BOM you need to use system skins and not appliers once BOM is activated. If you bought a "BOM skin" that included an applier that applier is for use when you aren't using BOM. You need to wear the "system skin" that's included to use BOM.

Also, when you're using BOM you don't need to and in fact can't use the full-body alphas that come with mesh bodies and heads. If your body is invisible that may be what's happening.

 

I am using the latest firestorm viewer designed for BOM Version 6.3.2. I am using a the BOM Body provided by the mesh body creator (for example: Slink Redux or Legacy). I repeat I am not wearing the Mesh body, I am not wearing the alphas. I removed them, I was able to see the BOM skin on the BOM Body just fine until I turned ALM on. Do you understand what I mean, now ? It just feels that you are assuming I'm not doing it right.

When I turn ALM on, my body is not invisible. It shows a default skin, not the BOM Skin (I purchased /redelivered from ItGirls, among several)  I am currently wearing on the BOM body without the alphas.

I'm curious to know if I'll ever able to use materials , perhaps the skin creator can provide several system skin with various degrees of shine/gloss on it.. ? Great but it will still not appear with advanced lighting model turned on. or is that some

[Theresa Tennyson]

17 minutes ago, Roguerie said:

I am using the latest firestorm viewer designed for BOM Version 6.3.2. I am using a the BOM Body provided by the mesh body creator (for example: Slink Redux or Legacy). I repeat I am not wearing the Mesh body, I am not wearing the alphas. I removed them, I was able to see the BOM skin on the BOM Body just fine until I turned ALM on. Do you understand what I mean, now ? It just feels that you are assuming I'm not doing it right.

When I turn ALM on, my body is not invisible. It shows a default skin, not the BOM Skin (I purchased /redelivered from ItGirls, among several)  I am currently wearing on the BOM body without the alphas.

I'm curious to know if I'll ever able to use materials , perhaps the skin creator can provide several system skin with various degrees of shine/gloss on it.. ? Great but it will still not appear with advanced lighting model turned on. or is that some

1) Redux bodies do not have "default skins" that are applied with the HUD or are part of the mesh. I own one. I can't tell you what might be happening with the Legacy body.

2) System skins do not have shine and gloss at all. If the skin came with an applier with materials, you can use the applier to apply the shine and gloss and still use the included system skin to set your body colors.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Theresa Tennyson

[Marianne Little]

Redux have a materials applier to be worn with BoM, so the specular maps can give skins back that effect. This is for the Redux, as stated in this post.

I have not tried it myself. Maybe you (threadstarter) can ask for the thread to be moved to the subforum for BoM. I think you will find more answers there, and maybe one who is using the updated Redux.

https://slinkstyle.com/2019/10/23/a-little-update-of-redux/

[Nalates Urriah]

OMG! Someone is soooo confused...

7 hours ago, Parhelion Palou said:

Long ago in a thread far, far away (as in I'm not going to look for it), someone stated that Linden Lab had said BOM textures would not include materials -- just the diffuse texture without the normal and specular maps. It may be that merging materials textures is too difficult or gives bad results, but that's just my guess. It was pointed out as a reason why appliers wouldn't go away when BOM came out.

It took a long time for BOM to be released and apparently most people either didn't know about that, or forgot.

By the way, ALM (Advanced Lighting Model) has nothing to do with this other than you need to have ALM on to see materials textures.

Yes that is right. But no diffuse layer in SL contains materials.

No one involved in or following the BOM dev cycle ever FORGOT that the BOM bake engine was not going to handle materials. The big reason for that is no one could figure out a logical way for multiple materials to be stacked, clothes over underwear, over tats, over skin... How do you tell the bake engine that specular for the bra is not to be applied to the blouse? Or if the blouse is partially transparent how much of the bra's specular is to show through the blouse? And whatever you figure out how do you explain it to new people?

7 hours ago, Roguerie said:

I specified in my post that I tried/worn 3 different skins, from 3 different creators who are not new to the skin design industry, each BOM skin worn didn't appear on the BOM body & head worn. I am not referring to the default body skins that a lot of mesh bodies naturally provide in the hud.

Try not to make it seem like I am not making things up, this isn't helping. I'm glad it's showing on your end while using ALM, perhaps you have the default body skins on? I don't know. I know for a fact that a lot of people use ALM, I can't see all the beautiful features when I use BOM. If you don't care for ALM, say that. I'll understand lol but personally I use it all the time, I hang out with a few that have it on all the time because they don't like to look at flat textures.

BOM is amazing but it also has a mojor pull-back for materials.

I use materials in almost everything on second life. I didn't say that BOM wasn't working. I stated that I would need to no longer use materials for things such as photography with shine/shadow effect because my BOM Body doesn't appear when ALM is checked.

My Slink Redux body does materials just fine. The Slink HUD has controls for materials. An applier is needed to add the material layers, Spec and Normal.

You put the default (or system) body skin on then put the BOM body on and the BOM system bakes the skin to the BOM body... If you wore the classic body only and put the BOM skin on it would show on the classic body. After all it is just a system skin like we have used on the classic avatar before mesh bodies. When you put on a BOM body the BOM system puts the system skin on the mesh body and hides the classic body. You don't have to do anything else

You are doing it WRONG. I switch ALM on and off and it has no effect on my BOM body... provided I'm not trying to use materials it looks the pretty much the same. If I am using materials they disappear if ALM is off, but the skin shows. Read the instructions for your body again.

I suppose it is possible your graphics driver is out of date or a version that does not work with SL. Firestorm has information on their wiki about which drivers work with their viewer. Old Intel graphics systems have to have an older driver.

[Roguerie]

9 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

OMG! Someone is soooo confused...

You are doing it WRONG. I switch ALM on and off and it has no effect on my BOM body... provided I'm not trying to use materials it looks the pretty much the same. If I am using materials they disappear if ALM is off, but the skin shows. Read the instructions for your body again.

I suppose it is possible your graphics driver is out of date or a version that does not work with SL. Firestorm has information on their wiki about which drivers work with their viewer. Old Intel graphics systems have to have an older driver.

Yeah, I guess I am confused and I suppose that is funny to some of you.

I wore my Slink Redux and the BOM skin seems to show as it should with and without Advanced Lighting Model. My graphic settings are working decent, not having an issue there but I'll consider that next time. I attempted the same process again with the Legacy BOM; that wasn't successful when advanced lighting model was checked but without, it worked. I am not going to attempt to explain further because doing so hasn't been productive at all on my end. According the responses above, I'm either severely confused, not doing right or suffer memory loss.

I'll figure it out.

[Roguerie]

10 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

Redux have a materials applier to be worn with BoM, so the specular maps can give skins back that effect. This is for the Redux, as stated in this post.

I have not tried it myself. Maybe you (threadstarter) can ask for the thread to be moved to the subforum for BoM. I think you will find more answers there, and maybe one who is using the updated Redux.

https://slinkstyle.com/2019/10/23/a-little-update-of-redux/

Thanks Marianne, I'll check on that and work things out on my own, outside of the forum. I appreciate the help but posting here in general was a mistake for me.