Making SL more welcoming to males

[Conall DeCuir]

Just now, Amina Sopwith said:

Clearly. 

Will you answer my questions? 

What else do you want to know? If i hate all women and would love to strangle them?

[Amina Sopwith]

Just now, Conall DeCuir said:

What else do you want to know? If i hate all women and would love to strangle them?

Do you ever just answer questions without going off on mad accusatory tangents? All I want to ask is:

• Do you honestly believe a man can choke a woman to death because he's too stupid to realise he's killing her? 
• Do you honestly think women are like snakes because they don't all think the same?

 

[Conall DeCuir]

Did you read my responses? 

[Amina Sopwith]

Just now, Conall DeCuir said:

Did you read my responses? 

Yes. They did not answer my questions. They were largely irrelevant. 

• Do you honestly believe a man can choke a woman to death because he's too stupid to realise he's killing her? 
• Do you honestly think women are like snakes because they don't all think the same?

[Conall DeCuir]

1 minute ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Do you ever just answer questions without going off on mad accusatory tangents? All I want to ask is:

• Do you honestly believe a man can choke a woman to death because he's too stupid to realise he's killing her? 
• Do you honestly think women are like snakes because they don't all think the same?

 

And yes, a man can technically do that as he is usually stronger and 'some' (very less men) might be that dumb

And 'SOME SOME SOME' women can be snakes. Not only against men but against each other as well .. especially when their opinions do not match or when it is because of a man

[Conall DeCuir]

And now i bow out. I have better things to do. If you didn't got it by now what i am saying, it just has no worth. 

[Beth Macbain]

1 minute ago, Conall DeCuir said:

What else do you want to know? If i hate all women and would love to strangle them?

I can't speak for Amina, but what I'd like to hear from you is that these things that happen to women are disgusting and that, as a man, you will stand up and speak out about things like the young woman killed last week by the guy who got angry that she ignored his cat-calls, or the young woman in India who was burned to death last week by her two rapists and their fathers as she was on her way to court to testify against them. To speak up when you see men cat-calling women in RL and let them know it's not okay and that it isn't how real men behave towards women. To not make excuses for violent men hiding behind the "oops, it was just rough sex and I didn't mean to" defense. 

Be the example of what it takes to be a man and not a piece of sh*t. Be an ally. Listen to women and trust that we know what we're talking about when we speak of our experiences with men who think we exist only as an object. 

[Beth Macbain]

... sighs ... 

[Amina Sopwith]

43 minutes ago, Conall DeCuir said:

And yes, a man can technically do that as he is usually stronger and 'some' (very less men) might be that dumb

And 'SOME SOME SOME' women can be snakes. Not only against men but against each other as well .. especially when their opinions do not match or when it is because of a man

Well, ladies and gentlemen, there we have it: Conall's views on men who murder women in the sack (they're eejits who don't know their own strength) and women (snakes when they don't agree with someone and, of course, when they're scratching each other's eyes out over a man).

I'm disappointed, Conall. I didn't really believe you were that person, but it seems that you are. At least everyone can see it clearly now. 

It's pretty much a given that you won't see the correlation between your beliefs as expressed here, and your observation a page or two back about women complaining that there aren't enough good men. (Which actually hasn't been my experience, but you said it, not me.)

Edited December 7, 2019 by Amina Sopwith

[Conall DeCuir]

7 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I can't speak for Amina, but what I'd like to hear from you is that these things that happen to women are disgusting and that, as a man, you will stand up and speak out about things like the young woman killed last week by the guy who got angry that she ignored his cat-calls, or the young woman in India who was burned to death last week by her two rapists and their fathers as she was on her way to court to testify against them. To speak up when you see men cat-calling women in RL and let them know it's not okay and that it isn't how real men behave towards women. To not make excuses for violent men hiding behind the "oops, it was just rough sex and I didn't mean to" defense. 

Be the example of what it takes to be a man and not a piece of sh*t. Be an ally. Listen to women and trust that we know what we're talking about when we speak of our experiences with men who think we exist only as an object. 

What happened in india is awful but thats out of my hands to do anything against that. Men cat-calling women is for sure annoying but might be a bigger problem in america? I don't know, i do not witness it where i am living.  

Quote

Be the example of what it takes to be a man and not a piece of sh*t.

Thank you for thinking i am a piece of sh*t.

[Amina Sopwith]

 

28 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

OMFG. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to actually kill someone? It doesn't happen by accident in the heat of the moment by bumbling idiots who haven't studied under a master dominant. These are men who hate women and call themselves dominant (even though they are extremely weak) and can't control their rage and hide behind BDSM, using it as an excuse for their blood lust. This is not kink gone wrong. This is violence towards women.  

It's not that hard to understand. 

I suspect that if Conall came across an article about women who accidentally castrate men or stab them to death in a sex game gone wrong, he would find the concept much easier to grasp.

[Amina Sopwith]

3 minutes ago, Conall DeCuir said:

What happened in india is awful but thats out of my hands to do anything against that. Men cat-calling women is for sure annoying but might be a bigger problem in america? I don't know, i do not witness it where i am living.  

Good God, she's not holding you personally responsible for it! She's explaining why your attitude stinks and the kind of hideous things it enables! And have you any idea why you, as a man, might not witness street harassment??

Edited December 7, 2019 by Amina Sopwith

[AyelaNewLife]

19 minutes ago, Conall DeCuir said:

Ok, i have no clue about such doings and stay away from such people. I bow to your insight.

As none of the others actually spelt it out for you; you have to keep strangling someone after they've passed out to actually kill them. 

I agree with that you said in terms of kinky time getting out of hand, and one partner passing out due to a lack of experience... but it's extremely difficult to accidentally kill someone this way. It's almost always intentional murder.

[Beth Macbain]

@Amina Sopwith and I had a very strong disagreement in this thread. I think it was this thread. Regardless, we had a very strong disagreement. On a single topic. Do we hate each other? No, we don't. Are we snakes? No, we aren't. We certainly were on very different sides of the coin on whatever it was we were arguing about, but neither of us want to kill the other one, and I don't believe either of us find the other venomous.

Adults have disagreements. The world would be boring if we all thought the same way. If we listen, we learn from disagreements. Men get mad at each other all the time, punch it out, shake hands and move on. No one calls them snakes for that. Why is it different for women? 

And, yes, technically a stronger man (or woman) can kill weaker human with their bare hands. By accident? No. That's just a lame excuse. "He didn't know his own strength." Yes, he effing did. I know how strong I am. You certainly know how strong you are. Killing a human with your hands isn't easy. It isn't quick. From what I've read, it takes at least a minute for a person to fall unconscious by strangling. Death in 3-4 minutes of continuous pressure. 

Sit still for sixty seconds and see how long that feels. 

You still think it's possible that it happens accidentally? 

Just now, Conall DeCuir said:

Thank you for thinking i am a piece of sh*t.

I should have punctuated or worded that better. I wasn't saying I thought you were a piece of sh*t, I was trying to say something along the lines of "Be the example and show the piece of sh*t men how a real man acts." 

4 minutes ago, Conall DeCuir said:

What happened in india is awful but thats out of my hands to do anything against that. Men cat-calling women is for sure annoying but might be a bigger problem in america? I don't know, i do not witness it where i am living.  

It's absolutely not out of your hands. You can support organizations that are working so freaking hard to change the laws and the attitudes of men in India where things like this happen often. You can be outraged. You can implore your government to act with sanctions as long as these things continue to happen. You can lobby the Indian government. Just because something is happening somewhere else doesn't mean you can't do something. 

I don't know where you live, but I'd be willing to bet that if I went to your town and talked to 20 random women on the street, they'd say that cat-calling does happen. And it's not just annoying - it can be deadly. 

[Annie Nova]

On 11/16/2019 at 12:09 AM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 

already been explained 🙂

Edited December 7, 2019 by anniepany
delete and add

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 hours ago, Conall DeCuir said:

Present Day -- Women start to wonder where all the good men have gone .....................

Who is wondering that? I literally started a thread celebrating men. Many, maybe most, of the women posting here (including Beth and Amina) posted to it in order to . . . celebrate men.

I know exactly where the good men -- or many of them, anyway -- are to be found. So do the other women here.

 

Conall, I'm going to offer this seriously well-intentioned advice. You are so obsessed with the idea that anyone who self-identifies as a "feminist," including Amina, Beth, and myself, are anti-male fanatics that you aren't actually listening to what we are saying. And your answers reflect that assumption, rather than functioning as reasoned responses to what we are saying. And as a result, you're digging yourself in deeper rather than conceding that hey, just maybe, these "feminists" have a valid point. Take a deep breath, and please reflect before hitting "submit." Maybe pay attention to the words in your own signature?

(Also, you do know that Jordan Peterson is a very vocal trans-phobe, right? That he first came to public attention by refusing to use people's pronouns of choice, and essentially denying the existence of trans identities? Are you comfortable with that, really?)

[AyelaNewLife]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

(Also, you do know that Jordan Peterson is a very vocal trans-phobe, right? That he first came to public attention by refusing to use people's pronouns of choice, and essentially denying the existence of trans identities? Are you comfortable with that, really?)

Eh....

Jordan Peterson knows how to pick his battles about as well as I know how to pick men, and his actions have undoubtedly fueled hateful transphobia... but the man himself is not a transphobe, nor does he refuse to use people's chosen pronouns.

He chose to make a stand on a point of philosophical principle regarding the role of governments with regard to personal speech, and the differences between banning certain speech and enforcing certain speech. If you strip out the pronoun context, it's a principle that only the most authoritarian of fascists would disagree with. 

Unfortunately we live in an age where nuance is dead and opinions only exist if written in crayon on post-it notes; thus his reputation is that of a transphobe. And a Nazi, somehow. Sigh.

[Garnet Psaltery]

Jordan Peterson got me to tidy my room. *nods*

[Garnet Psaltery]

48 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I know exactly where the good men -- or many of them, anyway -- are to be found. So do the other women here.

I wish someone would tell me as I keep meeting men who try it on when I barely know them.  I know the good ones are there somewhere as women say so, and I've known plenty in the past, but where are they now?

Edited December 7, 2019 by Garnet Psaltery

[Lyssa Greymoon]

1 hour ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Unfortunately we live in an age where nuance is dead and opinions only exist if written in crayon on post-it notes; thus his reputation is that of a transphobe. And a Nazi, somehow. Sigh.

Yeah, he’s not a transphobic, just a shameless grifter who monetizes transphobia.

[Selene Gregoire]

55 minutes ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

I wish someone would tell me as I keep meeting men who try it on when I barely know them.  I know the good ones are there somewhere as women say so, and I've known plenty in the past, but where are they now?

The ones that aren't already taken are usually hiding in plain sight. 

[Erwin Solo]

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, AyelaNewLife said:

Jordan Peterson knows how to pick his battles about as well as I know how to pick men, and his actions have undoubtedly fueled hateful transphobia... but the man himself is not a transphobe, nor does he refuse to use people's chosen pronouns.

He chose to make a stand on a point of philosophical principle regarding the role of governments with regard to personal speech, and the differences between banning certain speech and enforcing certain speech. If you strip out the pronoun context, it's a principle that only the most authoritarian of fascists would disagree with. 

Unfortunately we live in an age where nuance is dead and opinions only exist if written in crayon on post-it notes; thus his reputation is that of a transphobe. And a Nazi, somehow. Sigh.

The truth is probably a lot more complicated than either your characterization, or my even briefer comment suggest.

It would be a huge derail to demonstrate in full that Peterson's views are, at the very least, transphobic to the degree that he argues that gender identity is overwhelming based on biology. Here, for instance, is part of what he said to the Canadian Senate's hearing on Bill C-16, which is a human rights bill:
 

Quote

 

"The proposition that is instantiated in this visual, which is a good representation of the philosophy of the policies, is that there’s no causal relationship between these four dimensions of identity, and that’s palpably absurd. I mean, 99.7 per cent of people who inhabit a body with a given biological sex identify with that biological sex. They’re incredibly tightly linked.

If you can’t attribute causality to a link that’s that tight, you have to dispense with the notion of causality altogether. Of the people who identify as male or female who are also biologically male or female, the vast majority of them have the sexual preference that would go along with that and the gender identity and the gender expression.

These levels of analysis are unbelievably tightly linked, and the evidence that biological factors play a role in determining gender identity is, in a word, overwhelming. There isn’t a serious scientist alive who would dispute that. You get disputes about it, but they always stem, essentially, from the humanities. As far as I’m concerned — I’ve looked at it very carefully — those arguments are entirely ideologically driven. It’s a tenet of the ideology that identity is socially constructed, and that’s partly why it’s been instantiated into law, because there’s no way they can win the argument but they can certainly win the propaganda war, especially by foisting this sort of reprehensible advertising information on children. That’s part of the expressed intent."

https://sencanada.ca/en/Content/SEN/Committee/421/lcjc/53339-e

 

Now, I'm going to agree that biology, of course, plays a role in one's gender identity, and so, frankly, would most people who support trans people: Peterson is setting up a strawman argument here. Which is the more ironic, because his own argument is essentially black-and-white, and he has consistently refused to make any concession that maybe socially constructed gender roles are independent of biology, and need to be taken into account as well.

As for his role as "free speech" champion, there is no one in Canadian academia who has a more prominent soap box. He has never been "banned" for his ideas, from anywhere (although he has faced protests), and his cosy tenured job at the University of Toronto was not threatened by refusing to abide by that institution's policies. And the latter, by the way, was the initial impetus for his much-publicized attack on gender-neutral language, not government legislation or policy. U of T issued a policy, with the intent of 1) making classrooms more comfortable and safe spaces for trans students, and 2) preventing the deliberate misgendering of students, that called on faculty to use the pronouns of choice. Later, as his soapbox became larger, Peterson took on the human rights bill, C-16, which (to be clear) does not make it illegal to misgender someone, but does say that the consistent and deliberate misgendering of someone can be said to constitute evidence of harassment. That's not quite the same thing as saying that you have to call someone "they."

It's rather ironic that Peterson should feel he's being wronged by being called a Nazi, as he persistently labels, in print and electronic media, anyone who opposes him as "Marxists." As for his reputation -- well, you can know him by the company he keeps. He is actually funded by a Canadian alt right organization called Rebel Media, and is closely associated with, and defended by, a small but noxious circle of alt right personalities such as Faith Goldie and Lindsay Shepherd. (Don't let me get started on the latter.) He is consistently championed by the far right on social media, and happily stars in videos with many of them.

Sorry, I live with Jordan Peterson, in a way. He teaches at the university where I got my degrees, and that is a 20 minute walk from where I live. His influence has permeated my classrooms, and I've had to address his views there. I've actually read much of his stuff because I need to. I think his views are somewhat more sophisticated and complicated than they are sometimes painted, but the notion that he is defending us all against an entirely non-existent threat to our freedom of speech is palpably absurd. In his case, being "oppressed" seems to consist of having a really loud and contractually-protected megaphone. His reasons for opposing nongendered or trans pronouns vary according to his audience, but he is, in practice, transphobic, and is quite willing to lend credibility, through video appearances and retweets and such, to a really pretty dark little corner of the Canadian right.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Garnet Psaltery said:

I wish someone would tell me as I keep meeting men who try it on when I barely know them.  I know the good ones are there somewhere as women say so, and I've known plenty in the past, but where are they now?

I wish it were as simple as pasting a SLURL here..

Last night I went dancing at Fogbound Blues, a place I generally avoid as I find it a bit of a meat market. I was, shortly after arrival, IMed by a very nice and quite articulate man who proceeded to not try to pick me up, but instead chatted with me at length about my feminism. Then, at the same place, I ran into a male friend who I'd also met via IM at Fogbound about a year ago, and who is a fellow Canadian and passionate left-winger; he then took me dancing to a salsa club, where I met another nice man who did not try to pick me up, but just chatted with me in a friendly way. We friended each other this morning: he's very sweet.

I dunno. Luck? All I can say, really, is that they are out there. And that I'm sorry you're having such a difficult time finding them.

[Sukubia Scarmon]

3 hours ago, Conall DeCuir said:

What happened in india is awful but thats out of my hands to do anything against that. Men cat-calling women is for sure annoying but might be a bigger problem in america? I don't know, i do not witness it where i am living.  

Not sure, but I think you're german as well? In that case I can attest, as a german female, that it does happen here as well.