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29 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Welcome to the Observer Effect.

Well, it could of course be that. Or, more simply, it's the result of the fact that the SL that I experience -- the places I go, the sorts of activities in which I engage -- are different from those that make up Beth's or Seicher's SL. Inevitably, we are all being anecdotal here: it's the sum of all of our experiences that might, eventually, conceivably, produce a data set large and broad enough in range to be representative. Although probably not: SL is large, and enormously diverse.

It's also entirely possible that there are things about my profile, the way that I dress, the particular style of my communications, and so forth, that elicit different responses.

21 minutes ago, Orwar said:

What strikes me as so very peculiar whenever gender roles and social constructions are discussed, is how it's always the men that aren't doing good enough. Perhaps it's just that men aren't as prone to whining about things that are ultimately pointless? Because rest assured, women in general are just as capable of being b*stards, as men in general are. That absolutely doesn't mean 'all women', just as it doesn't mean 'all men'.

Well, maybe. Although I don't think you can discount culture and socialization: men and women are schooled in social behaviours to be very different, still.

Overall, though, I wouldn't disagree, which is why my last sentence was this:

8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Maybe this is less about gender, immediately and directly, than it is about how and why we communicate.

The key thing -- again, bearing in mind that I think men and women are socialized to engage and connect differently -- is that a "hi" is essentially an empty communication: it doesn't "say" anything. All that it does is point to itself: it's language that announces its own presence, that is about the act of communication itself. And I'm sure that this kind of communication is relatively ungendered, in the sense that I'm sure it can be seen in exchanges that are women-women, men-men, women-men, men-women, and all of other diverse possible combinations of gendered or non binary encounters.

Now, there are a variety of different ways to establish, first and foremost, that one wishes to communicate, of which "hi" is merely the simplest and most reductive example. But someone who approaches me -- quite possibly with the same intent as the person saying "hi" -- by commenting on my profile, or photographs, or my clothing style, is indicating to me that they have individuated me: they are recognizing, and acknowledging, that I am not merely a "category" (i.e., ,woman, potential sexual partner), but a unique individual.

Someone who begins with nothing more than a "hi" gives me no reason to believe that they care about me as a singular and unique person: there is no evidence to suggest that they are interested in anything other than those features (as for instance, breasts and female genitals) that I hold in common with everyone else in that broader gendered category.

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2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

[ ... ] is that a "hi" is essentially an empty communication: it doesn't "say" anything. [ ... ]

   I agree, basically, with just about everything you just said - and I agree that a 'hi' on its own is not enough to motivate most people to respond to you (heck, I've stated so myself in the thread addressing that very topic).

   But I don't agree that a 'hi' is essentially empty communication. Yes, it may just say 'I am here', but it may also say 'You are here'. Does one greet another for their own sake, or for their sake? Is the glass half full, or half empty? Is this person reaching out to me because they want something (possibly pixel bumps) from me, or are they reaching out to me to offer something? After all, a friendship can be very simply describe as a mutual exchange of fulfilling each others social needs. Is this a friendly person saying 'hi' as in 'Hi, I am here, you are here - we are here. Let's put that to use.', or is this a sex-crazed maniac saying 'hi' as in 'I man, you woman, we bang bang'.

   ... Obviously, I don't enjoy it when people just say 'hi'. Christ, put some effort into it, regardless of which you're after. It takes a couple split seconds to type 'Hello there' or 'How do you do' for most people who use keyboards with some frequency. And if it takes you longer, and you're one of those people who needs to look at the keyboard when you're typing, just let it take that time.

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44 minutes ago, Catrie said:

Nah, Southern.  My momma would come back from the dead to b slap me because I was rude. lol

Ha. Lived in the South for a while, and saw this in action. My SL ex-partner and still RL bff starts so many sentences with "Sowry aboat..." (Sorry about...) He's the stereotypical polite Canadian. We still have little tiffs about, "Why are you apologizing?" (Me to him.) :)

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I am an over-thinker. I can look at a spot on the carpet and spend the next two days wondering how it got there, what it is, who did it, why they didn't clean it up when they did it, who is going to clean it up now, how are they going to clean it up, etc.

I think most men would look at that same spot, clean it up, and move on. 

In my experience, women overthink things more than men do. 

So when a man says "hi" to me, I have to go through my checklist and wonder what his intentions are, what his endgame is, how old he is, how long he's been in SL, is he partnered, is he mesh, does he have good hair, does he have children, what time zone is he in, is he really a male, how much energy do I have for a conversation, do I feel like slexing tonight, should we do it here, or my place, which one of my places, or his place, does he have a place, how is his spelling and grammar, is English his first language, how tall is he, does he live in his mom's basement, is he a psycho, if I return his greeting is some woman going to come hunt me down, is he just IMing me because I'm here, or is there something special about me that intrigues him... basically, by the time I return his greeting, I've already mentally explored every possible outcome of our interaction.

What do I think is going through the man's head, though?

"Hi." 

 

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2 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I think most men would look at that same spot, clean it up, and move on.  (Emphasis mine SR)

You know way different men than I do. :) The ones I know would look at it and move on.

OR... If they did clean it up they would talk about it for two days and expect beer and sammiches.

(I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm not really into man bashing but sometimes... and this was just too good to pass up... and ...)

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21 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Well, it could of course be that (the Observer Effect-MM). Or, more simply, it's the result of the fact that the SL that I experience -- the places I go, the sorts of activities in which I engage -- are different from those that make up Beth's or Seicher's SL. Inevitably, we are all being anecdotal here: it's the sum of all of our experiences that might, eventually, conceivably, produce a data set large and broad enough in range to be representative. Although probably not: SL is large, and enormously diverse.

In the way I think of it, all the things you mentioned are part of the Observer Effect. Not every aspect of that effect is under our control, nor is every aspect beyond it. Where I go, how I appear, how I act, how I perceive; those are all "me". (Did I use that semicolon correctly? I see that key on my keyboard and sometimes feel like touching it.)

SL is, as you note, a vastly larger space in which to have all this play out. Still, I find myself as much at odds with the mainstream here as in RL, giving rise to the suspicion that I have something to do with that.

I do not intend "Observer Effect" to suggest that it's something we can escape, but there should be aspects of it we can wiggle.

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10 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I am an over-thinker. I can look at a spot on the carpet and spend the next two days wondering how it got there, what it is, who did it, why they didn't clean it up when they did it, who is going to clean it up now, how are they going to clean it up, etc.

You need this, Beth...

https://www.amazon.com/Detector-Handheld-Flashlight-Automotive-Detection/dp/B01MR2SQ0W/ref=asc_df_B01MR2SQ0W/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241940204152&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10277134436366125181&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9018707&hvtargid=pla-400231257987&psc=1

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1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Did I use that semicolon correctly? I see that key on my keyboard and sometimes feel like touching it.

Kinky.

(And yes you did.)

2 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

In the way I think of it, all the things you mentioned are part of the Observer Effect. Not every aspect of that effect is under our control, nor is every aspect beyond it. Where I go, how I appear, how I act, how I perceive; those are all "me". (Did I use that semicolon correctly? I see that key on my keyboard and sometimes feel like touching it.)

SL is, as you note, a vastly larger space in which to have all this play out. Still, I find myself as much at odds with the mainstream here as in RL, giving rise to the suspicion that I have something to do with that.

I do not intend "Observer Effect" to suggest that it's something we can escape, but there should be aspects of it we can wiggle.

Yes, I agree. In some ways it's parallel to the old nature/nurture dichotomy (and it's probably not unconnected with it in some respects, after all). We make choices, constrained by things over which we have no control, but those choices themselves open up and enable other experiences from which we have been excluded.

I'm all too aware that there are great swathes of SL that I've not really experienced, except sometimes as a sort of tourist. And I actually feel a bit bad about that, although not generally so bad that I'm prepared, in most instances, to make the effort that would be required to broaden my experience.

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I'm actually feeling left out now lol. Maybe its something about my profile or my avi but nobody even says hello or hi or anything else to me these days. Back in the day when I was not so 'old' in SL terms I did get hit a lot but I am a big girl and I don't get upset too much perhaps because I work in a mainly men dominated industry which fair to say does not tolerate men or women 'behaving badly'.

Away from the topic it could be where I hangout which to be fair I don't do much, I more or less just talk to friends on the forum but if I do go to somewhere like Fogbound or Muddy's because I like to listen to music now and then its rare for anyone to actually talk to me except for people who are friends.

I am actually guilty of saying Hi to friends didn't think that was a bad thing must rethink it.

Anyway its my take I think most people are generally good and nice and respond I have had some not so nice encounters but hey we get that in RL too.

Hope you are all having a good day.

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2 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

 

I am an over-thinker. I can look at a spot on the carpet and spend the next two days wondering how it got there, what it is, who did it, why they didn't clean it up when they did it, who is going to clean it up now, how are they going to clean it up, etc.

I think most men would look at that same spot, clean it up, and move on. 

 

"Out, out, dam# spot!" - Lady MacBeth. Hmm..similar name..😹

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18 hours ago, Seicher Rae said:

 I have a mesh avi and I got more bad come ons with my system avatar.

I have experienced the same thing, my theory is that system Avis are seen as more naive and so more likely to fall for the whole scam.

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I'm a very shy and awkward person. I'm also really quiet most of the time unless I'm really comfortable with a person because of anxiety that is crippling even in sl.

I've been in sl for for almost eleven years now and from my own personal experience no matter how innocent a conversation is started by most males who've messaged me, it almost always leads to them wanting sex. It isn't me thinking about sex at all . Nor is it me encouraging the conversation to lead to that. I'm about as fliratious as a brick. They don't even respect the fact that I'm in a relationship. Some men in sl seem to view it as a free for all without any thought to the women they are approaching with their verbal rubbish. I've also found from experience that turning these men down politely leads to them calling names and hurling insults. With this attitude, of course defenses go up when a random guy messages me because of the past behavior of men that try to speak to me. It is like they don't even understand the concept of friendship.

I've even gone to a few clubs simply to enjoy the atmosphere and music only to be asked by a random male who was just turned down why I'm even at a club if not looking to "hook up".

For someone with anxiety, it is more than just uncomfortable. It is disconcerting and can cause a panic attack. This may seem like an overreaction, but for someone with extreme PTSD and anxiety it is pretty normal for me. It has led me to stick to my small circle of family and friends where I won't even venture out to meet others anymore.

If you have to ask this type of question, why not create a female account and experience it for yourself to get your own personal answers since your tone is rather condescending to begin with? You assume we are thinking about sex by a simple greeting from males, but it is more from the actions of said males who have this on their mind and don't hesitate to push it on females they message. Please realize that I know it isn't the entire male population. It isn't the whole male population of sl. Those who act this way really make it hard to even trust those innocent conversation starters from genuine people only wanting an actual conversation.

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17 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Yep, though I suspect people would have felt worse had she tipped well. That kinda brings up the idea that you're willing to sell yourself out.

People should not have to purchase good customer service. Good customer service should be rewarded, when given freely. 

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I had an IM earlier from a female friend, who was IMed by a Man (in a nice way as she said) and was asked for a couple dance but, after a brief time of dancing, she fled ... telling me

" I felt a bit sorry for the poor guy, he seemed to be someone who didn't have much luck in relationships, but I think it's also because he hasn't figured out how to talk to women. (i.e. talk to them like they are a person.)  Too heavy on the compliments, and not really talking about anything else."

 

 

Edited by Conall DeCuir
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4 hours ago, Matty Luminos said:

People should not have to purchase good customer service. Good customer service should be rewarded, when given freely. 

Considering how she generally treated retail staff, she got remarkably good customer service. Over the years, I actually got to know a few clerks because of her treatment. I'd feel obliged to offer some sort of apology or condolence for what they'd endured when we were together. In those stores were I was a frequent customer, that sometimes developed into a first-name relationship.

Over the years, several people asked me why I associate with her. My mother started distancing herself many years ago, when she and my father moved to the retirement village down the road, leaving me to be her neighbor. She's been in my life, for better or worse, since I was born. I suppose I don't know any better!

I imagine the clerks in my local stores talk about me as much as her. I can only hope they have better things to say, like "she's nuts" rather than "she's mean". I'd even be happy with "she's a good tipper".

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19 minutes ago, Conall DeCuir said:

I had an IM earlier from a female friend, who was IMed by a Man (in a nice way as she said) and was asked for a couple dance but, after a brief time of dancing, she fled ... telling me

" I felt a bit sorry for the poor guy, he seemed to be someone who didn't have much luck in relationships, but I think it's also because he hasn't figured out how to talk to women. (i.e. talk to them like they are a person.)  Too heavy on the compliments, and not really talking about anything else."

I've had encounters like this, where I felt compassion for someone floundering in search of companionship. I hate to see people feeling alone so I'll do my best to sneak in some advice and encouragement, but I can't always offer myself up as a solution.

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18 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I bought a similar device, didn't work. You've reminded me of the SNL skit about a "body fluid" detector.

I have no pets, so I did what any true blooded engineer would, I pointed my UV flashlight into the commode after peeing.

Didn't work.

The stitching on my jeans sure did look cool, though.

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I had a pleasant interaction in the gym this morning when a man struck up a conversation about the exercise I was doing. We had a nice chat and I approached him again on my way out as I suddenly remembered something that might be useful for him. It was all very nice, but I doubt it would have happened had I been a man. And if he'd just said "Hi, how are you?" as opposed to "Hope you don't mind me saying, your form is excellent", I probably wouldn't have been so inclined to chat.

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26 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

I had a pleasant interaction in the gym this morning when a man struck up a conversation about the exercise I was doing. We had a nice chat and I approached him again on my way out as I suddenly remembered something that might be useful for him. It was all very nice, but I doubt it would have happened had I been a man. And if he'd just said "Hi, how are you?" as opposed to "Hope you don't mind me saying, your form is excellent", I probably wouldn't have been so inclined to chat.

/me takes notes, "Your form is excellent"

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8 hours ago, LyricalBookworm said:

I'm a very shy and awkward person. I'm also really quiet most of the time unless I'm really comfortable with a person because of anxiety that is crippling even in sl.

I've been in sl for for almost eleven years now and from my own personal experience no matter how innocent a conversation is started by most males who've messaged me, it almost always leads to them wanting sex. It isn't me thinking about sex at all . Nor is it me encouraging the conversation to lead to that. I'm about as fliratious as a brick. They don't even respect the fact that I'm in a relationship. Some men in sl seem to view it as a free for all without any thought to the women they are approaching with their verbal rubbish. I've also found from experience that turning these men down politely leads to them calling names and hurling insults. With this attitude, of course defenses go up when a random guy messages me because of the past behavior of men that try to speak to me. It is like they don't even understand the concept of friendship.

I've even gone to a few clubs simply to enjoy the atmosphere and music only to be asked by a random male who was just turned down why I'm even at a club if not looking to "hook up".

For someone with anxiety, it is more than just uncomfortable. It is disconcerting and can cause a panic attack. This may seem like an overreaction, but for someone with extreme PTSD and anxiety it is pretty normal for me. It has led me to stick to my small circle of family and friends where I won't even venture out to meet others anymore.

If you have to ask this type of question, why not create a female account and experience it for yourself to get your own personal answers since your tone is rather condescending to begin with? You assume we are thinking about sex by a simple greeting from males, but it is more from the actions of said males who have this on their mind and don't hesitate to push it on females they message. Please realize that I know it isn't the entire male population. It isn't the whole male population of sl. Those who act this way really make it hard to even trust those innocent conversation starters from genuine people only wanting an actual conversation.

Nailed it. Again.

2026917548_standingovation.gif.5a562eb5c445ae899c2535d8fc5446b5.gif

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