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9 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   I actually went to look up the legal definition of harassment, and apparently any written form of communication 'in a manner likely to cause annoyance or alarm' is legally harassment. Someone call the national guard, we're all going down!

And that's exactly why we need to have the conversation. A lot of people on the internet annoy me simply because they are unwilling to type "you" instead of "u". Does that make it illegal for them to do that? If it is, I've got a lot of police reports to file. 

More to the point of this, however, is the definition of sexual harassment. 

Quote

 

sex·u·al ha·rass·ment

noun

noun: sexual harassment

behavior characterized by the making of unwelcome and inappropriate sexual remarks or physical advances in a workplace or other professional or social situation.

 

So how is anyone to know what is unwelcome and inappropriate? Of course there are some things that absolutely are, and would likely cross over into assault, but what about complimenting a woman on her looks? It's going to make some women uncomfortable, and some women are going to love it. Would one of my male coworkers feel uncomfortable if I complimented him on a new haircut? I don't know. Maybe? What about asking out a coworker, or a woman in a coffee shop, or a bar? Where is it appropriate and where is it not appropriate?

And if women hate it so much, how come romantic comedies make so much money from women going to see them, and swooning over them? Because nearly all of them involve something that would probably be considered creepy in reality. And how are men supposed to know that the behavior is okay in a movie, but not in reality? 

I just don't think that's it's all clear cut for anyone. 

I don't think I'm a bad person for saying that, and I sure as hell down think I'm selling out any women by saying that. 

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Let's take a look at what you tagged this post with, shall we?

Experience, as others have said. Try being a female in SL for a while, it can be a constant "Hi. ... You want to have slex?" Also, ya just might want to look at your name? "Krave4it"? That has se

Nobody said its exactly the same thing, but now both have a similarity: Women getting told to shut up, because a man is annoyed. 

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10 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

You got mad at me for my original post in this thread because you were mad at @Orwar for his comments about women whinging. 

No. It's true I didn't appreciate that comment from Orwar and I responded to him directly, but I also responded directly to you about how and why I disagreed.  

13 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

The reason I bolded the "Those experiences are relevant" line is because my (and the women who agreed with me) experiences are relevant as well. Questioning my opinion as something unbelievable to you ("Really?") is most certainly a form of shouting someone down. And then you went on a little rant about things that had nothing to do with me or my words. Yes, I did get defensive after that. 

No. The fact that you have lots of lovely men in your life, and the frankly obvious point that most men are decent, are NOT relevant to the issue at hand, which is why women get defensive in light of all the harassment they receive. Nobody at any point suggested that most men are not decent. It reads as detraction from the issue, which had already been dismissed as "whining" elsewhere. 

As for "Really?" being the equivalent of "shouting someone down"...you're not serious, are you? Are you? Please say you're not. Especially in this context. You said that some women get offended by a man saying hi, to which my reply was words to the effect of: "Really? I'm fine with men saying x, y and z..." That's aggressive shouting down? That's not relevant to the discussion? 

18 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I attempted to start a conversation about the definition of harassment and the varied opinions on what and where the line is. You were already angry and took it out on me...I was in the way of your indignation.

No. I disagreed with things that you said, and I spoke to you about them. You may not always agree with me (clearly) but please do not try to make out that I've simply been using you as a punchbag rather than responding, really quite thoroughly I think, to things that you've said. When I want a punchbag, I use Goreans and their Blessed Leader John Nobhead. Huge soft target, those are.

Ok.

From my side of the table... 

I've experienced a lot of harassment and abuse both on and offline (the things I have had hissed in my ear and screamed at me! The hands on public transport! The attempts at mutilation RP! The threats! The slaps and punches!) as have very many women, and more often than not it gets shut down. I find that it is so rare for women to be able to speak explicitly about what has happened to them without someone coming along and, one way or another, attempting to minimise its impact to make people (and I'm afraid to say that "people" in this context usually means "men") more comfortable about it. Oh, stop whining, it'll never change and you should just ignore and forget about it. Oh, but Tumblr. Oh, but feminists on the internet. Oh, but we mustn't blame all men, my men are lovely. It doesn't matter how bad it is for someone to have to hear about the experiences, it is far far far worse to have them, and frankly I'd like the complainers to toughen up a bit about it, because goodness knows we've had to. And in my defence, you did say when you started the "men can't even say hi" debate that you knew it wasn't going to go down well. I don't think either of us realised how right you were. And then it just went on into things I quite patently never said, like women always being right and needing to shut up (I thought I was pretty clear that I want them to shout louder!), and all men being to blame and yada yada. Then it became a "women v women" issue, which is exactly what the perpetrators of these things want.

It's cumulative and it gives an overall impression. The wrong one, perhaps, but the one that is given.

I like you, Beth. I have always liked you. You say you get on with men better than women, well that's fair enough. Women are complicated. But while we obviously don't always agree, I would be really, really upset if what came out of this exchange was yet another "oh look, women can't get on" round of crap, because it's not where anyone who's unfortunate enough to be reading or participating in this is going to learn anything helpful. It's not how I saw our exchange, either. Believe me, I can piss men off too.

 

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On 11/13/2019 at 8:22 PM, miaminightmare said:

My initial reply to this thread was in regards to my experiences in Second Life. Which, is what this thread was about and should still be. I'm a transman, and putting all men into the same boat would put me there as well, and... No? I can say I've never approached someone online or offline and immediately segued into "Wanna *****?" or asked if they want to break out some sort of fetish with me right on the spot.... which has happened to me quite a few times in Second Life while on my girls and... you know, never, in real life.

I'm a trans man too, and my experience, both RL and SL, is very similar. Although prior to completing transition I did get this very thing in RL on a very regular basis. Even when trying my hardest to present as male, I still got plenty of unwanted attention from guys who can't tell the difference between a trans man and a butch lesbian. Now that I'm 9 years post-transition, it doesn't happen any more.

I do have a female avatar in SL but I rarely take her out in public so I don't often get this kind of IM but it has happened on occasion.

However, transition has  made me acutely aware of the bull***** political-correctness hoops that men have to jump through in order to not get accused of sexual harassment all the time. I'm an extrovert and naturally inclined to chat with anyone, anywhere. But I have to be careful now, when chatting with women, because even a harmless comment can so easily be misinterpreted, it's safer jut to not even bother. And that makes me very sad.

 

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38 minutes ago, Skell Dagger said:

The OP has, of course, not returned. But I want to leave this here, because it's a talk that I go back to now and then:

 

 

Gah.. you made me tear up a little.

Nothing else to add to this post tho, everything has been said and most of all the OP is probably very content with himself now.

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I take it all back. Men are the worst. I’m Twitter-banned for 12 hours now for screaming curses at Scooter Braun and Scott Borchetta. People are going to accuse my girl T-Swizzle of being dramatic and emotional (or worse, that she was asking for it) for coming out and talking about what these two men are doing to her and those people can bite me.

This wouldn’t be happening if she was a man. They are trying to put her in her place (beneath them) and it’s disgusting. 

Men... particularly rich white men... are the worst. #TeamTaylor

I’m joking about all men, of course, but this is a reminder of what a huge problem the power differential still is between men and women, and how men abuse it.

And no, women should not stop whining (screaming from the rooftops) about it.

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On 11/10/2019 at 10:26 PM, Krave4it said:

You say "the immediate thought is what does he want "...well he want to say Hi ..and have a meaningful conversation .

14 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

I went back to the beginning on this thread... and, yeah, I'm going to call BS on this. 

We seem to have this conversation an awful lot, don't we? That in itself says something. What it says to me is that we -- everyone -- are not doing a very good job of communicating with each other or, alternately, responding positively to what we are hearing.

Along these lines, a thought has occurred to me that really hasn't before, and that I don't know that I've ever heard articulated in this context before.

I get IMed, not infrequently, by other women. They might want to know what I'm wearing, or have something to say about my profile, or my group tag, or something I've said in local.

What has not, so far as I can recall, ever happened is a woman IMing me with just a "Hi." Women always seem to commence from the outset with something that makes it clear why they are IMing me.

And the more that I think about it, the more I am convinced that that is one of the reasons women tend to think "uh oh" when they receive a "Hi" or a "Hi, how are you," or even a "Hi, you have a pretty avi" IM. Because in the absence of any immediately evident reason for someone wanting to talk to me in private, there is probably a good basis to assume, by default, that this is an opening line rather than a communication with another purpose, such as the exchange of information.

Maybe this is less about gender, immediately and directly, than it is about how and why we communicate.

 

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On 11/11/2019 at 3:59 AM, Krave4it said:

I often wonder why do so many women think immediately about sex when you say

 

I have exactly the same question.

 

Hypothese. They had bad experiences with some guys and now they take care and break all communication with men at the strick minimum to be polite. They are dreaming of the charming non existing prince and they know men are normal so they are disapointed.

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On November 11, 2019 at 1:13 AM, Krave4it said:

Let's admit though that a conversation does start with a nice HI ..followed by How are you ?..can we agree on that..smiles

Conversations with friends do. Conversations with strangers should start differently.

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2 hours ago, Cindy Evanier said:

You don't speak for me. I am definitely not disappointed with my man.

Of course to us, our man is Prince Charming, to other women he is just another man, and that guy who doesn't impress us, is someone's Prince Chraming.

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2 hours ago, BelindaN said:

There are some great guys in SL, but in my experience, numbers are small. 

Meeting one is a delight.

Rather than numbers being small, the numbers are dwarfed by the behaviours of the creepy ones. A small number of chancers spamming every female-appearing avatar who comes in their radar range will result in a large number of women having that sort of negative experience. (Which might be why some of the "Hi"s go silent on the spammer's part, if the spammer got a "hit" elsewhere.) Meanwhile, the good guys are talking with a much smaller number of women. So if the numbers of chancers and good guys are equal, it will probably appear that there are more chancers.

In other words, it's not just the numbers of individuals engaging in the different behaviours but the numbers of others engaged by them. A single spam-chancer will always generate a greater quantity of (negative) engagements, and spread them more widely, than someone who takes the time to create interesting conversation.

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7 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What has not, so far as I can recall, ever happened is a woman IMing me with just a "Hi." Women always seem to commence from the outset with something that makes it clear why they are IMing me.

Huh, interesting, really? I'm just guesstimating here, not having kept a spreadsheet :) , but while I think more men than women have said just "hi" to me, I'd guess I get about 35% of those "hi" IMs from women. Then there is being a mermaid, which I don't roleplay but just swim around as one (geez, is that a SL statement or what?!), and constantly get the mermaid equivalent of "hi" with "tala" and nothing else.

And to be honest, I don't get a lot of the "hi ... (pause) ... wanna slex?" IMs anymore. This has puzzled me greatly. Is it my breath? I mean, I have a mesh avi and I got more bad come ons with my system avatar. My name still has the German slur in it, and even the German idjits have been keeping quiet. :::leaves to quietly get paranoid, check out my armpits, and weep silently, alone:::

Edited by Seicher Rae
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17 hours ago, Lewis Luminos said:

However, transition has  made me acutely aware of the bull***** political-correctness hoops that men have to jump through in order to not get accused of sexual harassment all the time. I'm an extrovert and naturally inclined to chat with anyone, anywhere. But I have to be careful now, when chatting with women, because even a harmless comment can so easily be misinterpreted, it's safer jut to not even bother. And that makes me very sad.

This is what I've been trying to say and thank you for articulating it so well. 

8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

We seem to have this conversation an awful lot, don't we? That in itself says something. What it says to me is that we -- everyone -- are not doing a very good job of communicating with each other or, alternately, responding positively to what we are hearing.

Yes, we do. And yes, I agree about the communication issues. I struggle with how to say what I'm trying to say in less than 10,000 words, and we (and by "we" I absolutely do include me) always look for the absolute worst interpretation of another's words and immediately put each other on the defensive. We are always trying so hard to get our own points across that we rarely stop to think about the words of others, and what they actually mean. 

This, I believe, is indicative of the global conversations the planet is having as well. We're great at talking, but not so great at listening. 

8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What has not, so far as I can recall, ever happened is a woman IMing me with just a "Hi." Women always seem to commence from the outset with something that makes it clear why they are IMing me.

I, too, get IMed by women quite often. Usually it's something like "Can I ask you a question?" and that always makes me a little nervous because it's such a loaded question. The question has been anything from asking about my dress to asking if I banged her boyfriend and everything in between. I have been thinking, though, about people who message me with just a "hi" and how I typically respond. The truth is that before I respond to anyone, I cam in on them and then look at their profile. I make judgments based on appearance and their profile. If it's a woman, I nearly always return their greeting, though I keep it as brief as possible. If it's a man, it's based on a number of factors.  

I can't help wonder, though, if the sheer number of men who open a conversation with nothing but "hi" has anything to do with what Lewis said above. 

5 hours ago, Lureo said:

Hypothese. They had bad experiences with some guys and now they take care and break all communication with men at the strick minimum to be polite. They are dreaming of the charming non existing prince and they know men are normal so they are disapointed.

Yeah, no. 

4 hours ago, BelindaN said:

There are some great guys in SL, but in my experience, numbers are small. 

This could be tied in to the question currently posed on the general discussion forum about making SL more appealing to men. We need more good guys in SL that know how to behave. 

34 minutes ago, Lureo said:

Yes I don't understand all but I don't thingk that women think very positively of men. But they are minority isn't it?

Case in point. You have a chip on your shoulder because you've been rejected, probably numerous times. Instead of wanting to know what is wrong with your methods, you want to believe something is wrong with women.

12 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

And to be honest, I don't get a lot of the "hi ... (pause) ... wanna slex?" IMs anymore. This has puzzled me greatly. Is it my breath? I mean, I have a mesh avi and I got more bad come ons with my system avatar. My name still has the German slur in it, and even the German idjits have been keeping quiet. :::leaves to quietly get paranoid, check out my armpits, and weep silently, alone:::

Ditto! Even in sex clubs, it's becoming increasingly rare. Perhaps it's the type of sex clubs I visit (they're rarely the free places). I belong to several groups that are dedicated to quickies - even in those it doesn't happen often, and in all honesty, it's usually women who make the initial offer. Some will argue that those are men pretending to be women, and I reject that notion. The reality is that within these circles, sex positive women aren't shamed for it and can feel more free to express their desires. 

This absolutely intimidates some men, though. The true "Prince Charmings", in my opinion, are the men who respect and value an openly sexual woman. 

Edited by Beth Macbain
Grammar fail.
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5 hours ago, BelindaN said:

There are some great guys in SL, but in my experience, numbers are small. 

Meeting one is a delight.

In my experience, most of the unsolicited introductions I've got were from fellas, and most of them were a delight.

8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What has not, so far as I can recall, ever happened is a woman IMing me with just a "Hi." Women always seem to commence from the outset with something that makes it clear why they are IMing me.

I don't get approached often enough to have built much of a sense for this. During my years of parking at "The Far Away", I think all of the introductions have come from men, they've all been pleasant, and I think they've all exhibited both curiosity and effort on the part of the fella. I appear to be in a minority of women who've had generally positive encounters with guys.

I am even more rarely approached by women. The most recent was that gal who announced her presence by rezzing an oscilloscope display right in front of me. That was a clear indication she'd read my profile, and it was a wonderful way to say "hi". I still chat with her when noodling at "Ivory Tower".

My RL emergency backup mom routinely complained about all the "disgusting" people in the world, particularly those at our local retail establishments who gave her such "horrible" service. Baring some sort of parallel-dimension phenomena, I believe I inhabit the very same world, where retail service staff treat me wonderfully.

Welcome to the Observer Effect.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
Who writes this crap?
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8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What has not, so far as I can recall, ever happened is a woman IMing me with just a "Hi."

   They have, and do, to me though. I think it's pointless to speculate in why this is, just as I think that it's pointless to bring out the hacksaw to chop behavior up and slot it into 'male behavior' or 'female behavior'. Do either group do it more than the other? Is it still a 'male issue' if there are women doing it, or is it acceptable if (or rather when) women do it?

   But, if we do want to keep digging that hole; my perception of socialising in general is, that when approaching a stranger, or even when approached by a stranger, of the opposite sex - then it's almost always expected that the man is supposed to carry the conversation. I've had so many instances of women saying "hi", or something a little bit more such as "Hello there, I really like that getup/beard/this I read in your profile", and my response has been "Hello there! Thank you, that's very kind of you to say ... ", followed by a polite counter such as " ... I dig the shoes/that's a nice dress/are you enjoying the music?" - this social ping pong goes on for a half dozen lines or so, and you find yourself at a conversational dead end. Fine, we didn't find any common ground to carry a conversation, they didn't seem interested in talking, or maybe they got something on the hook elsewhere - I don't mind, it doesn't matter to me.

   Until after 10-15 minutes they ask you if you're dating someone, or just why you didn't seem interested in them.

   Had this been something that happened once or twice, then meh, it's just anecdotal. But scenarios such as that has occurred so many times both to myself, and to others - I don't have a whole lot of male friends in SL, but most of them have described very similar experiences when we've discussed going to clubs in SL (and, usually, why it's largely pointless).

   What strikes me as so very peculiar whenever gender roles and social constructions are discussed, is how it's always the men that aren't doing good enough. Perhaps it's just that men aren't as prone to whining about things that are ultimately pointless? Because rest assured, women in general are just as capable of being b*stards, as men in general are. That absolutely doesn't mean 'all women', just as it doesn't mean 'all men'.

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8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What has not, so far as I can recall, ever happened is a woman IMing me with just a "Hi." Women always seem to commence from the outset with something that makes it clear why they are IMing me.

If I'm messaging a stranger, I'll start with " Sorry to bother you but (insert what I was going to tell or ask them)"  as I'm polite like that. 😛

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