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Let's take a look at what you tagged this post with, shall we?

Experience, as others have said. Try being a female in SL for a while, it can be a constant "Hi. ... You want to have slex?" Also, ya just might want to look at your name? "Krave4it"? That has se

Nobody said its exactly the same thing, but now both have a similarity: Women getting told to shut up, because a man is annoyed. 

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25 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

Most of this thread has actuallhy been pretty civillised, considering the sensitivity of the topic.

I agree. I've reread my post that was apparently "shouting down" another poster and I still see nothing objectionable in it. Apart, of course, from the points it made about bloody Tumblr idiots not actually offsetting the level of societal misogyny that affects women online and off, and the fact that it's not misandristic to acknowledge that women as a class suffer from this crap more than men. 

There's certainly nothing in it about women always being right (wtf). It explicitly insults Tumblr feminists ferchrissakes, not that that's hard, and it was in direct disagreement with another woman. There is a bit of mildly comical (to me, anyway) angst but there's also a pretty clear explanation of exactly what it was that causes such nuttiness: horrible societal attitudes towards women which are STILL so frequently framed in a position that makes women responsible. That's crazy-making.  

I don't believe that post is abusive (anyone who disagrees can report it) and I definitely don't see why anyone who thinks it's wrong wouldn't be able to say so.

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1 hour ago, Matty Luminos said:

Most of this thread has actuallhy been pretty civillised, considering the sensitivity of the topic.

Agree. Interesting read.

If  you consider that a thinly disguised ad for a soon to be defunct club has been allowed to stand then this thread is actually a bit of a shining light.

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I like men. I like most men better than I like most women. I grew up in a house full of men - six older brothers, plus my father. Yeah, my mom and sister were around, too, but we were far out-numbered. I understand men better than I do women. None of the men in my family have been abusive, or disrespectful to women in any way. If they had been, my mother would have ended them because despite being outnumbered, she was the undisputed matriarch and leader of our family. She was a true first wave feminist and raised all of her kids (and my dad, too, for that matter) to view everyone with equity - not an easy task being a foreigner in a tiny southern Kentucky town in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. 

This thread makes me angry because the vast majority of the men I've known have been amazing men. Not all - like nearly every other woman on the planet, I've got my own #metoo stories. Other than the odd butt-grope over the years that I didn't see coming, none of them would have happened if I had known then what I know now, because much like my mother, I would have ended them, and attempt to educate them, as soon as they started getting out of line. That didn't happen, though, for a variety of reasons, none of which were my fault. It's simply that as I've aged and became the woman I am, faced with the same situations today, I would have handled things very differently. 

Important caveat here - I have never been the victim of a violent sexual assault or rape. I am in NO WAY saying that women are in any way responsible for the atrocious actions of monsters, and in most cases, lack the physical or emotional strength to fight back and stop the assault/rape. This is in no way their fault and the blame lies solely on the male attacker no matter what.

It just infuriates me that I have to defend myself to other women who get so knee-jerky and emotional when this topic comes up, which makes me come across as equally knee-jerky and emotional. 

Every single person is responsible for their own behavior. I don't believe an entire gender should be held responsible for the actions or behaviors of some. Why this makes some women so angry, I truly don't know. This is a nuanced topic with many layers. It is not cut and dry, and I won't damn anyone without cause. 

I've not once said that women aren't victims of harassment, assault, or rape on a far higher level than men are. I have not once said that women who are victims of these crimes (moral, ethical, or judicial crimes, because it's still not illegal for a man to tell a woman to smile though it should be) are responsible for it happening to them. I am not excusing the atrocious behavior of some men. 

Though men are far more likely to commit violent crimes (and emotional trauma and abuse) to women than the opposite, women are far more likely to eat their own. 

My own view is indisputably colored by my 50 years of living, just like everyone else's is colored by their own life experiences. The overwhelming tendency of other women to set about dismantling each other is disgusting to me even as I'm guilty of it myself. I have, as noted in this thread, strong opinions on 3rd wave feminists, aka the Tumblr Feministas, and am bemused by the inability of some in this thread to recognize they are behaving just like them even as they mock them.

Until women learn to accept each other and sheath their claws in spite of different opinions, thoughts, ideas, expressions, experiences, age, religion, ethnicity, race, etc., and understand that a united front doesn't have to mean 100% compliance and agreement and assimilation, we are never going to be able to provide a coherent message on what we expect of men, and how they view or treat or behave around women.  

Women are the worst enemy of women.  

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15 hours ago, janetosilio said:

I'll entertain a "Hi, how are you?" I'll even follow up with something like "Great, can't complain, how about yourself?" A good, 90% of the time, I don't get much besides, "I'm good." and not much else, nothing much to move the conversation along.   The other 10% of the time I get, "Horny..." which ends the conversation. 

I gift them with a mesh sex doll in such cases.  lol

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15 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I like men. I like most men better than I like most women. I grew up in a house full of men - six older brothers, plus my father. Yeah, my mom and sister were around, too, but we were far out-numbered. I understand men better than I do women. None of the men in my family have been abusive, or disrespectful to women in any way. If they had been, my mother would have ended them because despite being outnumbered, she was the undisputed matriarch and leader of our family. She was a true first wave feminist and raised all of her kids (and my dad, too, for that matter) to view everyone with equity - not an easy task being a foreigner in a tiny southern Kentucky town in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. 

This thread makes me angry because the vast majority of the men I've known have been amazing men. Not all - like nearly every other woman on the planet, I've got my own #metoo stories. Other than the odd butt-grope over the years that I didn't see coming, none of them would have happened if I had known then what I know now, because much like my mother, I would have ended them, and attempt to educate them, as soon as they started getting out of line. That didn't happen, though, for a variety of reasons, none of which were my fault. It's simply that as I've aged and became the woman I am, faced with the same situations today, I would have handled things very differently. 

Important caveat here - I have never been the victim of a violent sexual assault or rape. I am in NO WAY saying that women are in any way responsible for the atrocious actions of monsters, and in most cases, lack the physical or emotional strength to fight back and stop the assault/rape. This is in no way their fault and the blame lies solely on the male attacker no matter what.

It just infuriates me that I have to defend myself to other women who get so knee-jerky and emotional when this topic comes up, which makes me come across as equally knee-jerky and emotional. 

Every single person is responsible for their own behavior. I don't believe an entire gender should be held responsible for the actions or behaviors of some. Why this makes some women so angry, I truly don't know. This is a nuanced topic with many layers. It is not cut and dry, and I won't damn anyone without cause. 

I've not once said that women aren't victims of harassment, assault, or rape on a far higher level than men are. I have not once said that women who are victims of these crimes (moral, ethical, or judicial crimes, because it's still not illegal for a man to tell a woman to smile though it should be) are responsible for it happening to them. I am not excusing the atrocious behavior of some men. 

Though men are far more likely to commit violent crimes (and emotional trauma and abuse) to women than the opposite, women are far more likely to eat their own. 

My own view is indisputably colored by my 50 years of living, just like everyone else's is colored by their own life experiences. The overwhelming tendency of other women to set about dismantling each other is disgusting to me even as I'm guilty of it myself. I have, as noted in this thread, strong opinions on 3rd wave feminists, aka the Tumblr Feministas, and am bemused by the inability of some in this thread to recognize they are behaving just like them even as they mock them.

Until women learn to accept each other and sheath their claws in spite of different opinions, thoughts, ideas, expressions, experiences, age, religion, ethnicity, race, etc., and understand that a united front doesn't have to mean 100% compliance and agreement and assimilation, we are never going to be able to provide a coherent message on what we expect of men, and how they view or treat or behave around women.  

Women are the worst enemy of women.  

This is all very nice, and largely beside the point. Though if you hate women tearing into other women so much, I wonder why you had to emphasise the fact that I'm a woman and not a man when you accused me of "shouting you down" by responding to a post in which you refuted accusations that nobody made. I had not seen our disagreement in any gendered terms before then. And I'm frustrated that, as ever, that has turned this discussion into another "ooh, women hate each other" load of bollocks. Which you claim to oppose!

I will try to keep it brief.

On balance, at class levels, women experience hate and aggression from men more than men do from women. I don't think anyone disputes that. That's not denigrating all men (frack's sake) but it's a relevant point when we are discussing why women respond as they do to certain interactions and why they should be able to talk about it without being belittled.

Tumblr feminists are idiots, and no, I am not acting like them (if you can find a quote from me in which I declare my hatred of men, do quote it. If you can't, say that you can't). But they simply do not have the same societal influence as those men who act aggressively towards women have. Men do not experience sexual abuse, assault, street harassment and online aggression from Tumblr feminists to anywhere near the extent that women, as a class, do from certain types of men. It's ridiculous to compare the two.

And it is, if I'm honest, rather offensive to take these points and pretend that what I'm actually saying is that women can never be wrong, that all, or even most, men are arseholes, and that I think you shouldn't talk. That's so far removed from what I'm saying that it isn't even a distortion or misrepresentation. It's just...cack. Which is then aggravated when you turn it into a gender issue because we happen to be two women who disagree, and try to make out that I'm some sort of behemoth who has rendered you incapable of responding (but apparently I can make you laugh, so that's good, I guess).

I'm so frustrated that this exchange, which I wanted to use as an opportunity to show precisely why women are often on the defensive, has now been reduced to "ooh, b*tchy wimmin" rather than the real world problems of misogyny. I don't have an issue with women disagreeing with each other and I resent being put into a position where I have to elaborate on that.

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5 hours ago, Blaise Glendevon said:

There is nothing more pathetic than women who sell out other women for pats on the head from men.

That is all. 

@Amina Sopwith - I know you've taken this completely personal, but you are far from the only woman giving me hell over my opinions. Since Blaise chose not to @ me on this I'm just assuming this was directed at me for having the audacity to defend men. The sheer hypocrisy is this little jab infuriates me. I sold out no women, I need no pats on the head from anyone, and she's doing the same thing she accuses me of with her broad sweeping brush, lack of conversational ability, and trite assumptions as to my motivations. 

I'm standing by what I said about women being women's worst enemies. 

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On 11/13/2019 at 12:52 PM, Orwar said:

[...] which makes it very easy to humiliate and mock them. Make them regret harassing you, and make them wary of harassing others, and amuse yourself in the process.

I didn’t know you were this mean! 😯 😭

P.S: What humiliation techniques do you use? Asking for a friend...

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1 hour ago, Beth Macbain said:

@Amina Sopwith - I know you've taken this completely personal, but you are far from the only woman giving me hell over my opinions. Since Blaise chose not to @ me on this I'm just assuming this was directed at me for having the audacity to defend men. The sheer hypocrisy is this little jab infuriates me. I sold out no women, I need no pats on the head from anyone, and she's doing the same thing she accuses me of with her broad sweeping brush, lack of conversational ability, and trite assumptions as to my motivations. 

I'm standing by what I said about women being women's worst enemies. 

Hoo boy. I didn't think much of that comment when I saw it (and if you don't like it, kindly take it up with Blaise, not me), but based on your subsequent posts, it's impossible not to wonder if she might have a point. I disagree with you as an individual, but you're the one who subsequently took the discussion to full gender levels with the "women do this" and "women do that" and "look, a WOMAN  refuted my post, I mean shouted me down" stuff. I definitely don't hate men as a result of all the far, far worse stuff some of them have said and done to me online and off over the years, but if I followed your example...

It's irrelevant that you love men and they've mostly been great to you. Sorry, but it is. The point, for the umpteenth time, is that women, as a class, experience far more abuse from men, as a class, than vice versa. (Do you know what happens in my little feminine mind when I bring up death and rape threats, street harassment and assault, and hear, "YEAH BUT TUMBLR" in response?) And that is highly relevant when answering the question, "Why are women so defensive?" I'm sure the men in your life were all grand, but it's completely beside the point. As were all your "but we mustn't vilify all men" comments, because a) nobody did and b) it misdirects the focus from the more pertinent point about misogyny in society.

I did not want this to become a "wimmin vs wimmin" round of bollocks and I'm pretty unimpressed that you went there, and then used it to claim that (presumably other) women were women's worst enemies. I didn't make that connection. If it's true that awful women save their worst for women, the same is surely true of awful men, but once again, we don't want to focus on that.

For that reason, I'm going to have to disagree that you haven't "sold out" women. Disagree with me by all means (or just use the laughing emoji), but please don't extrapolate from that to all woman kind in general. It would appear from our posts that I've seen more of the dark underbelly than you have, so please just trust me: I'm trying to protect you.

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Just now, Ren Toxx said:

I didn’t know you were this mean! 😯 😭

   Only to those who deserve it! ❤️

1 minute ago, Ren Toxx said:

P.S: What humiliation techniques do you use? Asking for a friend.

   It's very situational. You need to quickly assess the person and figure out the best way to harm them, or freak them out. If someone gives you a too forward compliment, for example, perhaps something along the lines of "Why thank you dear, aren't you just sweet enough to chew through the jugular" might be suitable?

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3 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

How about the rest of it? 

For the past 14 years, I have worked for an organization that houses children who are victims of the most unimaginably horrifying abuse. Something like 8/10 children we care for have been sexually abused. The majority of teenage girls we work with are victims of trafficking. I've seen the physical, mental, and emotional trauma and permanent scars first hand. 

How many moms do you run into on a daily basis that sell their children to molesters for meth money? Seven year old boys who've been repeatedly gang-raped? 

Who's protecting who?

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3 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

For the past 14 years, I have worked for an organization that houses children who are victims of the most unimaginably horrifying abuse. Something like 8/10 children we care for have been sexually abused. The majority of teenage girls we work with are victims of trafficking. I've seen the physical, mental, and emotional trauma and permanent scars first hand. 

How many moms do you run into on a daily basis that sell their children to molesters for meth money? Seven year old boys who've been repeatedly gang-raped? 

Who's protecting who?

I'm even more flabbergasted that you should think Tumblr feminists balance things out. 
 

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6 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

I'm even more flabbergasted that you should think Tumblr feminists balance things out. 
 

Where in every single hell did I say that? Balance what out? A bunch of college-age dingbats screaming about hating men balances out the crimes men commit against women? Talk about attributing words to people who never said them... Jesus, Amina. 

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2 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Where in every single hell did I say that? Balance what out? A bunch of college-age dingbats screaming about hating men balances out the crimes men commit against women? Talk about attributing words to people who never said them... Jesus, Amina. 

On 11/13/2019 at 6:18 PM, Beth Macbain said:

Yes, really. Tumblr is full of 3rd wave feminists being triggered by men on the subway making eye contact with them....Go read the comments on any feminist website. "Men are the worst." "God, I hate men." "This is why all men should be eliminated". Yes, it's hyperbolic (for the most part), but it's not helping bridge the divide between men and women, and I'm one who believes that for us to have true equity between any and all genders, bridges need to be found.

And when I mirrored your "Tumblr is full of..." with "The streets are full of..." (it's a conversational tactic), you accused me of hyperbole. The issue was misogyny online and off, and I was pretty clear on what forms it took. If Tumblr is so utterly irrelevant (and it is), why bring it up? 

So if we're asking about "attributing words to people who never said them"...are you going to show me yet where I blamed all men for my bad experiences, claimed that women were always right, and that you shouldn't speak? I mean, as per this silliness?

23 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

I sometimes forget, especially when I'm wrong so often (mostly about the ability of adults to have difficult conversations or debates on these forums without emotion destroying any chance of that happening), that women are always right. 

So... never mind. I was wrong. Except I'm right because I'm a woman, but I was clearly wrong because the women told me so, and they're always right, but how can I be both wrong and right? Is this the moment I disappear in a little wisp of smoke because I divided by zero? 

Like a good girl, I'll be quiet now. 

Oddly enough, though, it's not because a man shouted me down, but because a woman did. 

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We're both just trying to prove each other wrong now when our words are here for any and all to see and form their own opinions on, and the goalposts have been moved so far down the field now that they're on Mars. 

You got mad at me for my original post in this thread because you were mad at @Orwar for his comments about women whinging. My original post - 

Quote

 

You know what would help arguments like this? Agreeing on what constitutes harassment. The problem, though, is that most people aren't going to agree on where the line is, or even what it is.

A guy sending me an explicit IM isn't harassment to me. It's a dude shooting his shot, and more than likely missing entirely, but that's not harassment in my opinion. It is to some women, though. I find it offensive, mainly because the grammar is usually atrocious, and an incredibly stupid way to open a conversation that he hopes will end up with my on my back, or knees, or hog-tied and hanging from the ceiling. If he continues when I've told him I'm not interested, it's still not harassment to me - it's desperation.

I'm going to get yelled at by my fellow females here, but I think the bar is set way too low as to what constitutes harassment. Men can't even say hello to a woman in public any longer without it being considered harassment by some women.

I'm sure in the past I've joked that crappy pick-up lines should be illegal, but I didn't really mean it.

 

It contained nothing about anything you've fussed at me about. It was about my opinion regarding what I consider harassment and that I think there needs to be a conversation (on a global level, though I didn't explicitly say that) on what harassment is. Here is your response (I added the bolding) - 

Quote

 

Really? I don't mind hearing, "Good morning", "Lovely dress", "May I buy you a drink?" or even "Would you do me the honour of going doggystyle with me?". Though the last one was in a swingers club, so there was context. Don't say it to me on the tube. At least not until I've had my coffee.

What we have here, though, is so typical. Guy comes on whinging that men can't even say "hi how are you" without women thinking it's sexual, even though he apparently says it only to women (since they're the subject of the whinge) and tags it with all manner of sexual terms. And women, and even femme men, can tell you how 99% of the time, sexual and annoying is exactly what it is. Those experiences are relevant.

Yet OP has still framed the whole thing as a question that puts women in the wrong. It's just bog standard misogynistic crap. Oh, and of course I've been told not to talk about it, because there's always that as well.

 

That wasn't me. I hadn't even read the OP at that point, and that I absolutely concede was a mistake on my part. I did something that I despise when others do it - I commented before reading the entire thread. Mea culpa. 

At the point I did comment, though, you were already steaming. Orwar is the one who made the comment about women whinging about men acting like douche-bags. I repeat that wasn't me. I wasn't the OP, either, for that matter.  

The reason I bolded the "Those experiences are relevant" line is because my (and the women who agreed with me) experiences are relevant as well. Questioning my opinion as something unbelievable to you ("Really?") is most certainly a form of shouting someone down. And then you went on a little rant about things that had nothing to do with me or my words. Yes, I did get defensive after that. 

I attempted to start a conversation about the definition of harassment and the varied opinions on what and where the line is. You were already angry and took it out on me. The OP was a troll, and this thread shouldn't have gone past his original post, but it did, and the conversation swerved to somewhere else as they usually do, and I was in the way of your indignation. 

At least, that's the way I see things from my side of the table. 

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   I actually went to look up the legal definition of harassment, and apparently any written form of communication 'in a manner likely to cause annoyance or alarm' is legally harassment. Someone call the national guard, we're all going down!

Edited by Orwar
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5 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   I actually went to look up the legal definition of harassment, and apparently any written form of communication 'in a manner likely to cause annoyance or alarm' is legally harassment. Someone call the national guard, we're all going down!

oh 💩.

 

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