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6 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

You are saying victims/survivors of abuse are just supposed to isolate ourselves even more than we already are from the rest of the world as if that will stop all abuse. Clearly you have no understanding that you are advocating further abuse of those who have already been abused. 

Where did he say that? You are the one that suggested blocking everyone before they even contact you.  He's telling you that there is no logical way of doing that currently. Unless, of course, LL puts in a " don't accept DMs" option, and lets you change the levels to "friends only" or "group members only" etc.  Which, I think would actually be a great idea. 

Also, how DARE you suggest that he has no understanding of abuse!  How DARE you think you know what ANYONE on this forum has gone through! You don't know what anyone on this forum has gone through, so you have no right to tell someone they " have no understanding" of abuse.  Unless you know every intimate detail of someone's journey and pain, you have no right to judge anyone on this forum.  I'm so tired of seeing people say other don't know what it's like to be abused.

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Let's take a look at what you tagged this post with, shall we?

Experience, as others have said. Try being a female in SL for a while, it can be a constant "Hi. ... You want to have slex?" Also, ya just might want to look at your name? "Krave4it"? That has se

Nobody said its exactly the same thing, but now both have a similarity: Women getting told to shut up, because a man is annoyed. 

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1 minute ago, Amina Sopwith said:

And the streets are full of women being groped and screamed at, a la #metoo. Which is more serious? Which has a far longer history? 

Full of women? Yes, that's hyperbole, and to me, hyperbole cheapens the problem - and it is a huge problem. I'm not disputing that. Any man who touches any woman without her explicit permission should have his fingers broken, at the very least, and depending on the level of touch, the broken bones should increase in number and severity.

I don't think all men should have their fingers broken, though, just because some men should. 

I've spent a considerable amount of time in MRA forums, the Red Pill, various incel hiding places before they get shut down trying to talk to these men and find out why they are the way they are. In the grand scheme of everything, those groups of men are very small. To me, vilifying all men because of those ding-a-lings is the same as vilifying all Muslims for the actions of al Qaeda. I want the guilty parties tried and punished... no more, no less. 

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3 minutes ago, Catrie said:

Where did he say that? You are the one that suggested blocking everyone before they even contact you.  He's telling you that there is no logical way of doing that currently. Unless, of course, LL puts in a " don't accept DMs" option, and lets you change the levels to "friends only" or "group members only" etc.  Which, I think would actually be a great idea. 

Also, how DARE you suggest that he has no understanding of abuse!  How DARE you think you know what ANYONE on this forum has gone through! You don't know what anyone on this forum has gone through, so you have no right to tell someone they " have no understanding" of abuse.  Unless you know every intimate detail of someone's journey and pain, you have no right to judge anyone on this forum.  I'm so tired of seeing people say other don't know what it's like to be abused.

You're reading comprehension must have taken a vacation.

I am a survivor of abuse. Physical, mental and emotional abuse that lasted decades. You have no idea what I have been put through by my own f'ing family. How dare you accuse others who went through hell for the first 40 years of life, of not understanding and not being aware of what others may have gone through.

Done with the abuse that is dished out on this forum.

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2 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

You're reading comprehension must have taken a vacation.

I am a survivor of abuse. Physical, mental and emotional abuse that lasted decades. You have no idea what I have been put through by my own f'ing family. How dare you accuse others who went through hell for the first 40 years of life, of not understanding and not being aware of what others may have gone through.

Done with the abuse that is dished out on this forum.

My reading comprehension has always been excellent.  You could ask any of my school teachers.

Isn't that what you've been doing?  You've accused Orwar twice, in this thread, that he doesn't understand what it's like to be abused.  You don't know that.  You can't know that unless he has told you that his childhood was filled with rainbows and lollipops and nothing bad ever happened to him.  I've went through 40 years of mental and emotional abuse myself.  My abuser has been dead for 3 years now, yet I'm still living with the repercussions of the abuse. That doesn't give me the right to tell anyone else that they don't understand what it's like to be abused.  I don't know their story and neither do you. 

No one should ever be abused, but in the real world, it happens to millions every day.  This is NOT the real world, this is Second Life, a virtual reality. In here, we do have some control over who we talk to, how we act, where we go, etc.  There will always be those that feel they can harass or troll others, especially in a video game or virtual world, but they have no power unless you give it to them. There is currently no way to block people before they can send a harassing message.  Maybe there should be,but that is something to take up with LL, not your fellow forum-ites. Currently, the only thing that can be done is block them after they send the harassing message.  Possibly report them if it is heinous enough to fall under the LL TOS. 

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12 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

You're reading comprehension must have taken a vacation.

I am a survivor of abuse. Physical, mental and emotional abuse that lasted decades. You have no idea what I have been put through by my own f'ing family. How dare you accuse others who went through hell for the first 40 years of life, of not understanding and not being aware of what others may have gone through.

Done with the abuse that is dished out on this forum.

Be strong, I've got faith in you.

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Good luck in reporting harassment to LL, TOS or no TOS. I was trolled relentlessly for years in SL Forum, inworld and into the Feeds (the Feed still exists btw, much to the surprise of many). I had documented examples, written examples, that I reported. This was traumatic, in RL. (It is bogus to say that because there isn't physical contact in SL that there can be no real RL harm done, although I've heard that often.) LL did nothing. For years.

I wish that complaining to "the authorities" here would help. It won't. I honestly don't know what an "avatar" could do in a one-on-one interaction, that doesn't include $L, that would get LL's attention. Right now we have words to express "no more" in places like the Forum. We can say "no more" to the idiots in SL with the objectionable behavior, before we mute them.

Women need to speak up. I agree with the comments about complaining and exposing not being whining. I also agree that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, that the bar is set too low on what constitutes harassment. I also speak as one who has been assaulted in real life, so I get it from that perspective, too. (That group is an unfortunately large sisterhood.)

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53 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Full of women? Yes, that's hyperbole

#MeToo. If it hasn't been your experience, that is great. It has most certainly been mine, and many other women as well. I had one summer a few years back where I literally couldn't leave the house without filth being screamed at me or hissed in my ear. (They make it very clear what they're looking at. It's not my face.) Yes, full of women. 

 

53 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

In the grand scheme of everything, those groups of men are very small. 

Are they smaller and less influential than these evil Tumblr feminists (seriously, Tumblr? That's still a thing?)? They are a minority, but they are large and loud enough to have driven me off a male-dominated internet forum, to have closed down my blog because of death and rape threats (it had no sexual content in it, by the way, and no identifiable photos) and to have given me more instances of street harassment and abuse than I can count. Heard several songs on the radio today whose unedited versions I know to be misogynistic in the extreme. Are any women truly surprised to hear about any of this? Is this truly an experience that many men can relate to?

 

53 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

To me, vilifying all men because of those ding-a-lings is the same as vilifying all Muslims for the actions of al Qaeda. 

Nobody has vilified all men, ferchrissakes. Why is there always this mad implication when we get on to this topic? What we have said is that women, as a class, experience a disproportionate amount of abuse, harassment and hatred, more than men, as a class. This is relevant when answering the question "Why do women so often think badly of a man who starts a conversation with a boring, mindless, one-size-fits-all opener?" Answer, according to most women: because 99% of the time, that opener leads to exactly what we expected and it's nothing good. 100% of the time, in the case of the femme man.

So what's the response? Men, please consider this context when starting conversations? Well, to be fair, some people have said words to that effect. But as usual, because this ALWAYS happens in any discussion about harassment and misogyny, we OF COURSE get the "well you should be quiet about it" and "well you should manage it" or variations thereof, because "society" (read: this particular brand of man) isn't ever going to change. Well that might be true, but why does this mean we should not be open about the extent of the problem and how it affects us? Seriously, why? 

And why do we then always have to be invited to consider our boundaries, or have to deny that we're vilifying all men? A woman who abuses a man is, on an individual level, every bit as guilty as a man who does the same, and I would hope that in a court of law, she would receive the exact same punishment. But does anyone really believe that, when we take it to a class level, the scales are even? And that this context is not remotely relevant to the topic at hand?

It is SO FRUSTRATING. Not least because I've heard it so, so, so many times already and I'm only in my 30s, but also because when someone starts equating stupid Tumblr users to the level of misogyny that women have to cope with on a daily basis, I have no choice but to point out this misogyny, its forms and its sheer scale. And then OF COURSE someone's going to imply that I hate all men because of it. I haven't yet found a way to make this case - that women, as a class, are abused by men more than men, as a class, are abused by women - that doesn't invite someone to make this insane leap of logic. And then I have to explain why it's relevant to this debate!

I'm trying, guys, I really am, but I'm running out of steam. However, to answer a related question: why are women nuts? This! This stupid thread by an OP who adds a load of sexual tags and then complains that women think he has sexual intentions! Having to explain that understanding the level of misogyny in our society doesn't mean I hate men as a class! Having to take bloody Tumblr feminists seriously for 20 seconds! Being accused of whining when I answer a question honestly, that I didn't solicit, or when I talk about these horrid experiences because if I don't, they will be trivialised even more than they already are! Being invited to consider what harassment is, as if I haven't had enough opportunities to think about it!

This is why we're nuts!!!!!!

Edited by Amina Sopwith
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1 hour ago, Beth Macbain said:

A guy sending me an explicit IM isn't harassment to me. It's a dude shooting his shot, and more than likely missing entirely, but that's not harassment in my opinion. It is to some women, though. I find it offensive, mainly because the grammar is usually atrocious, and an incredibly stupid way to open a conversation that he hopes will end up with my on my back, or knees, or hog-tied and hanging from the ceiling. If he continues when I've told him I'm not interested, it's still not harassment to me - it's desperation. 

Emphasis mine.

I agree with the first part. There's nothing wrong with someone taking a shot, it's rarely harassment (delivery dependent of course)... but that pickup line/first move is so often followed by harassment and abuse, to the point where the two become inextricably linked inside the minds of most women. That IM might not be harassment, but it does serve as a warning flag for probable harassment around the corner.

And as to the followup attempts, that really depends on delivery and frequency, there's no simple rules regarding where the line between desperation/persistence and harassment is. It's really messy, and while there's plenty of hypersensitive people crying wolf, there's also plenty of people that try to drown out legitimate complaints; it's not an issue that can be summarised neatly in a sentence or two.

(Also I'm just gonna pretend the last half page of posting doesn't exist because... yikes.)

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I don't generally have a problem with a man saying, "Hello, how are you?" and I think most women don't mind too much either. But...

...nobody is entitled to an unnecessary conversation with a random stranger for their pleasure. I have occasionally had men come up to me and interrupt me while I'm reading, listening to music or working in public on my laptop. No, it's not "harassment" per se, and to be fair, in those cases they have gone away when I've said that I'm busy. But there were a lot of cases when I was younger when I felt obliged to be all nice and talk to them even though I didn't want to. Why did they feel so comfortable interrupting me when I was doing something, and why do I still feel uncomfortable defending my time and space by politely requesting to be left alone? Because I don't want to "whine"? Because I don't want to be a nasty evil man-hating feminist who is so rude and horrid when he isn't even "harassing" me? Because I'm going to be invited to consider what "harassment" is and should be grateful if he's not doing it?

And even if I'm not doing anything, but I just don't fancy chatting to some random person, why will I feel uncomfortable in saying, "I'm sorry (because I must apologise!) but I'm not really in the mood to talk"? What kind of reaction do I run the very real risk of getting?

Again, I'm coming back to the question framing. The question should not be "Why do women think this is harassment?" but more "Why are women so uncomfortable about saying, 'I would like to be left alone'"?

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1 hour ago, Catrie said:

No one should ever be abused, but in the real world, it happens to millions every day.  This is NOT the real world, this is Second Life, a virtual reality. In here, we do have some control over who we talk to, how we act, where we go, etc.  There will always be those that feel they can harass or troll others, especially in a video game or virtual world, but they have no power unless you give it to them. There is currently no way to block people before they can send a harassing message.  Maybe there should be,but that is something to take up with LL, not your fellow forum-ites. Currently, the only thing that can be done is block them after they send the harassing message.  Possibly report them if it is heinous enough to fall under the LL TOS. 

I already covered some of this in my comment above (a few posts above). But I just want to add that the sane, logical thing would seem to be to agree with you that the harassers/trolls have no power over anyone else. I would so like to agree, but it isn't always the truth. It works in probably about 90% of the random trolls out there. Don't feed them, etc. Then you get into things like Gamergate.

My own SL trolling experience was with that 10%, a real psychopath (and the little flock of sheep who followed this person), with a history of being nasty to others. I did everything a sane, logical person would do. It didn't work. Yeah, perhaps technically the damage was done to me by me because I gave the psychopath power over me, but it really isn't always that simple. 

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I sometimes forget, especially when I'm wrong so often (mostly about the ability of adults to have difficult conversations or debates on these forums without emotion destroying any chance of that happening), that women are always right. 

So... never mind. I was wrong. Except I'm right because I'm a woman, but I was clearly wrong because the women told me so, and they're always right, but how can I be both wrong and right? Is this the moment I disappear in a little wisp of smoke because I divided by zero? 

Like a good girl, I'll be quiet now. 

Oddly enough, though, it's not because a man shouted me down, but because a woman did. 

 

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56 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I sometimes forget, especially when I'm wrong so often (mostly about the ability of adults to have difficult conversations or debates on these forums without emotion destroying any chance of that happening), that women are always right. 

Nobody has said this.

56 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

So... never mind. I was wrong. Except I'm right because I'm a woman, but I was clearly wrong because the women told me so, and they're always right, but how can I be both wrong and right? Is this the moment I disappear in a little wisp of smoke because I divided by zero? 

Nobody has said this. Although I believe you were complaining about hyperbole a little while ago?

56 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Oddly enough, though, it's not because a man shouted me down, but because a woman did. 

You are more than welcome to respond to the post. I would simply ask that, if you do, you respond to things I actually said.

Edited by Amina Sopwith
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3 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

 

I sometimes forget, especially when I'm wrong so often (mostly about the ability of adults to have difficult conversations or debates on these forums without emotion destroying any chance of that happening), that women are always right. 

 

I thought that was only true of 1) your mother, and 2) any woman you are in a relationship with.

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Lol, jesus.

My initial reply to this thread was in regards to my experiences in Second Life. Which, is what this thread was about and should still be. I'm a transman, and putting all men into the same boat would put me there as well, and... No? I can say I've never approached someone online or offline and immediately segued into "Wanna *****?" or asked if they want to break out some sort of fetish with me right on the spot.... which has happened to me quite a few times in Second Life while on my girls and... you know, never, in real life.

The OP posted wanting to know why women reacted a certain way in Second Life to such a generic ass opening. He got several replies as to why people  didn't like them or why they were pretty meh about them, with their experiences attached or thoughts about it. He even got advice on what to do instead in order to get positive results.

As for the "incessant need to whine"... maybe people just like sharing their experiences and/or reading that other people have had to deal with the same ***** they have? I'm not going to lose sleep regardless of how this thread ends, but I did participate in it because "Oh hey that's happened to me too" feelings.

Also... Tumblr... LOL. I've been on Tumblr for years, there's a bunch of over the top people. But I've met the same kind of people in WoW, TSW, SWTOR, F-list and... well, I could keep going. They just have a smaller echo chamber. 🤣

There's one thing that is right from those communities, though, and that's some people get burnt so much they refuse to get burnt any further and go on the defensive full time. Which you can find annoying or dumb or whatever, that's your right. But it's also their right to decide that's what they want to do in order to shield themselves moving forward. 🤷‍♀️

 

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1 hour ago, Beth Macbain said:

You know what would help arguments like this? Agreeing on what constitutes harassment. The problem, though, is that most people aren't going to agree on where the line is, or even what it is. 

A guy sending me an explicit IM isn't harassment to me. It's a dude shooting his shot, and more than likely missing entirely, but that's not harassment in my opinion. It is to some women, though. I find it offensive, mainly because the grammar is usually atrocious, and an incredibly stupid way to open a conversation that he hopes will end up with my on my back, or knees, or hog-tied and hanging from the ceiling. If he continues when I've told him I'm not interested, it's still not harassment to me - it's desperation. 

I'm going to get yelled at by my fellow females here, but I think the bar is set way too low as to what constitutes harassment. Men can't even say hello to a woman in public any longer without it being considered harassment by some women. 

I'm sure in the past I've joked that crappy pick-up lines should be illegal, but I didn't really mean it. 

I think some people (mostly women) set the bar too low, and others (mostly men) set it too high. Not all, but some, and some is too many, and that's the main problem.

My belief is that a single IM is not harrassment, but if a person persists after being rejected, that crosses the line into harrassment. That rejection should be followed by nothing more than "Sorry to bother you, have a nice day". 

 

1 hour ago, Orwar said:

   By all means, if you have some alternative method - which doesn't include expecting the mentality of the entire world's population to change overnight - go for it? I think it sounds absolutely amazing, never having to worry about strangers approaching you with ill intent or exposing you to uninvited lewdness; I'm just not seeing how we turn that from fantastical idealism to reality. It would be pretty great if we didn't drown when put under water, too.

   It's my opinion that all societies should strive for harmony, it's my expectation that it just ain't happening.

It's not going to change overnight. Society has been trying to change racism for over 100 years and we still aren't anywhere near eliminating that yet. We've been trying to change attitudes about homosexuality for fifty.  But we're getting there, and it only ever starts when a small handful of people are brave enough to stand up in public and say "This is wrong."  Changes only happen when someone does that.  

So the alternative method is to stand up and call it out, and say publicly that it's wrong. And I don't just mean the empty platitudes of #metoo hashtags on social media. I mean really standing up and saying it where it matters, where it is actually happening. It won't happen overnight but change is like an avalanche; it needs a shout to get it started but once it starts it gets bigger and bigger until the whole structure comes crashing down.

 

58 minutes ago, Catrie said:

Where did he say that? You are the one that suggested blocking everyone before they even contact you.  He's telling you that there is no logical way of doing that currently. Unless, of course, LL puts in a " don't accept DMs" option, and lets you change the levels to "friends only" or "group members only" etc.  Which, I think would actually be a great idea. 

Firestorm can already do some of this. It allows you to completely reject all IMs from non-friends, or you can set an auto-response to non-friends (You'll still see the IM in this case).  As far as I know, you can't stop receiving IMs from people on your friends list without blocking them individually or removing them. But you can certainly protect yourself from IMs from people not on your friends list. And of course both Firestorm and the official viewer allow opting out of group IMs, on a group-by-group basis.

 

16 minutes ago, Seicher Rae said:

Women need to speak up. I agree with the comments about complaining and exposing not being whining. I also agree that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, that the bar is set too low on what constitutes harassment. I also speak as one who has been assaulted in real life, so I get it from that perspective, too. (That group is an unfortunately large sisterhood.)

People need to speak up. Not just women, but men too. When their friends make a sexist comment or get overly-friendly with a woman who doesn't want their attention, men need to say "Hey buddy, knock it off will ya?" Likewise when someone is over-reacting to a harmless comment about how some guy likes their hairstyle, that needs to be called out too.

I think that I've led a very sheltered life; I knew that women were frequently harrassed but, being a man in RL, I've never experienced it for myself. I've been vicitimised and bullied for being gay, but as a gay man, it's totally not the same thing. It's easy to slip under the radar (gaydar?) as a gay man, I can walk down the street alone in a homophobic city and be completely safe because unless I tell someone I'm gay, or I wear rainbow flags all over my clothes, or stand on a street corner belting out "Born This Way", no-one would know. (No, I don't look in any way femme in RL; at least not since the end of the 1980s).

But a woman can't slip under the radar. When she walks down the street, everyone can see that she's a woman. It's no wonder that women look over their shoulder when a man walks behind them, or keep one hand on a can of mace. 

I once watched a presentation - I think it was probably a TED talk, in which the audience was asked to divide themselves up on either side of the lecture hall. On one side, anyone who had ever in their lives been sexually assaulted, or were ever in a situation in which they feared a sexual assault would happen. On the other side, anyone who had never in their lives had that experience or that fear.  ALL the women in the room, every single one of them, lined up on the "Yes" side.

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5 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

People need to speak up. Not just women, but men too.

Agreed, but when you can pretty much guarantee that doing so will get you accused of "whining", "shouting down" and claiming that "women are always right" (dafuq?), it's not hard to see why it doesn't happen as often as it should.

12 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

ALL the women in the room, every single one of them, lined up on the "Yes" side.

Of course. That was the point of #MeToo. It is very hard to overemphasise how common, and frightening, this experience is. And yet when we discuss it, there are still always so many people who frame the discussion in terms of women's supposed failings in the matter.

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Women need to speak up. I agree with the comments about complaining and exposing not being whining. I also agree that the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, that the bar is set too low on what constitutes harassment. I also speak as one who has been assaulted in real life, so I get it from that perspective, too. (That group is an unfortunately large sisterhood.)

14 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

People need to speak up. Not just women, but men too. When their friends make a sexist comment or get overly-friendly with a woman who doesn't want their attention, men need to say "Hey buddy, knock it off will ya?" Likewise when someone is over-reacting to a harmless comment about how some guy likes their hairstyle, that needs to be called out too.

Thank you for making that correction for me. That's an incredibly important one. I think I was thinking that women should be able to complain about harassment* without it being dismissed as whining.

*definition TBA

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I'll entertain a "Hi, how are you?" I'll even follow up with something like "Great, can't complain, how about yourself?" A good, 90% of the time, I don't get much besides, "I'm good." and not much else, nothing much to move the conversation along.   The other 10% of the time I get, "Horny..." which ends the conversation. 

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Come on now everybody......we'll never know if the OP had the intention of pressing so many buttons, but clearly this has been the effect. And the trouble is that hurt in a single thread Carries over.

Please dont let that be the effect on you from this trolling. Just sit back and reflect a while. It's been said earlier, we all have a personal lens. We all have life baggage. We don't all articulate it, but we all have some to a degree. Life can suck. Even here has the potential to suck. 

We have a strong community here, and for the most part we rub along. I hope when this storm passes, we can get back to what we do best.

Maybe it's time for a lock.

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