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On 11/11/2019 at 12:26 AM, Krave4it said:

You say "the immediate thought is what does he want "...well he want to say Hi ..and have a meaningful conversation .

The same people that say hi just looking for a meaningful conversation never do that with another men, they only seek a meaningful conversation with a women just in case it ends with them having sex.

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Let's take a look at what you tagged this post with, shall we?

Experience, as others have said. Try being a female in SL for a while, it can be a constant "Hi. ... You want to have slex?" Also, ya just might want to look at your name? "Krave4it"? That has se

Nobody said its exactly the same thing, but now both have a similarity: Women getting told to shut up, because a man is annoyed. 

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   I fail to see the purpose of perpetuating the extremely prejudiced view of men in Second Life being 'all about one thing'. Certainly, there are men like that - just as there are women like that, and there's no shortage of either; but that doesn't exclude the possibility that someone has good intentions when approaching you.

   I also fail to understand the incessant need to whine about it. Yeah you met a creep or two (or a few hundred), just don't engage with them and they tend to leave you alone; or block them if they're disturbing you, and move on. It's not as if you're going to change the way of the world by crying about it.

   Besides, some of the most amusing interactions I've had with people in Second Life, has been in torturing creeps. They're desperate for attention, which makes it very easy to humiliate and mock them. Make them regret harassing you, and make them wary of harassing others, and amuse yourself in the process.

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44 minutes ago, Orwar said:

I also fail to understand the incessant need to whine about it. Yeah you met a creep or two (or a few hundred), just don't engage with them and they tend to leave you alone;

These are two separate matters. I agree with the mute/block/derender approach but I'm also of the opinion that women should actually whine quite a lot more about abuse and harassment in both SL and RL. 

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58 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

I agree with the mute/block/derender approach but I'm also of the opinion that women should actually whine quite a lot more about abuse and harassment in both SL and RL.

   If it goes as far as abuse or harassment, report the person, then proceed to mute/block/derender them. Someone being a social klutz or upfront about their intentions isn't necessarily harassment though; asking never hurts, right?

   There's also a huge difference between RL harassment and abuse, and SL harassment and abuse, and it feels blatantly depreciatory to compare the two. They're not the same thing, they do not have anywhere equal consequences. In the real world, harassment generally has legal consequences, which is what we as a society do to deal with any issue - in Second Life it's unavoidable, because anyone can sign up and do as they please until someone gets them reported and dealt with; and then they can just sign up again. Dwelling on it, feeling miserable because 'oh no, someone wanted to bump my pixels and expressed this in a manner which didn't make me swoon' is nothing short of pathetic, when you're never further than a few button clicks away from disabling the person from going further.

Edited by Orwar
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50 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   If it goes as far as abuse or harassment, report the person, then proceed to mute/block/derender them. Someone being a social klutz or upfront about their intentions isn't necessarily harassment though; asking never hurts, right?

   There's also a huge difference between RL harassment and abuse, and SL harassment and abuse, and it feels blatantly depreciatory to compare the two. They're not the same thing, they do not have anywhere equal consequences. In the real world, harassment generally has legal consequences, which is what we as a society do to deal with any issue - in Second Life it's unavoidable, because anyone can sign up and do as they please until someone gets them reported and dealt with; and then they can just sign up again. Dwelling on it, feeling miserable because 'oh no, someone wanted to bump my pixels and expressed this in a manner which didn't make me swoon' is nothing short of pathetic, when you're never further than a few button clicks away from disabling the person from going further.

I used to have a decent amount of respect for your posts which have, until today, been mature and sensible.

However this one crosses a line. What you are effectively saying here is that if a woman experiences unwanted sexual advances, them its not the guy's responsibility to, you know, stop harrassing women. Its the woman's responsibility to not get harrassed.

I have lived as a man (or a boy) all my life. I have never experienced such harrassment in RL but having tasted it in SL I can honestly say that even here it is disconcerting, and mute-and-block is not sufficient to stop this behaviour. All they will do is move on to the next pair of pixel ***** and try again.

Men need to know that this kind of behaviour is distressing to women. And they need to learn to stop doing it at all.

And you know, because of what you've said here, I am going to change how I respond to these guys from now on. Ignoring, muting and blocking them will not educate them.

I'm angry now. But its a good sort of angry, the sort that leads to change. And it's time they got educated.

 

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Just now, Matty Luminos said:

What you are effectively saying here is that if a woman experiences unwanted sexual advances, them its not the guy's responsibility to, you know, stop harrassing women. Its the woman's responsibility to not get harrassed.

   Yes, but you have to take it into the context of SL being SL. There isn't a rational means of 'stopping' a person who is a cad, but you can block them and not have to deal with it any further. There are barely any consequences of being a jerk in Second Life, unless you are reported - and for the report to lead to anything, there must be a severe breach of the community guidelines; lewd proposals aren't.

3 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

I have lived as a man (or a boy) all my life. I have never experienced such harrassment in RL but having tasted it in SL I can honestly say that even here it is disconcerting, and mute-and-block is not sufficient to stop this behaviour. All they will do is move on to the next pair of pixel ***** and try again.

   I, too, have lived as a man (/boy) all my life - I have experienced sexual harassment in RL and SL alike. If someone goes out of their way to harass you by account-hopping, you may well have a very valid, real case of stalking which according to the law (of some countries) is a crime. Whilst you can report all of those accounts to LL, or even file a legal complaint, it is unfortunately very difficult to solve such cases.

6 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

Men need to know that this kind of behaviour is distressing to women. And they need to learn to stop doing it at all.

   Yes, and this is indeed a social issue that is currently a very hot topic in many parts of the world - but at the same time, we again have to consider that Second Life is global, we've got people from all kinds of cultures and backgrounds, and we can't expect that everyone will behave in accordance to the social conventions of whichever place in the world we come. To be respectful of people (and women in particular) is unfortunately not a virtue in all places of this world, as much as one might wish it was.

   What might seem apparent to you and me, may seem totally out of place to someone else who has been brought up with a different world view.

10 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

And you know, because of what you've said here, I am going to change how I respond to these guys from now on. Ignoring, muting and blocking them will not educate them.

I'm angry now. But its a good sort of angry, the sort that leads to change. And it's time they got educated.

   Come, join the dark side.

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1 hour ago, Orwar said:

There's also a huge difference between RL harassment and abuse, and SL harassment and abuse, and it feels blatantly depreciatory to compare the two. They're not the same thing, they do not have anywhere equal consequences.

I have had men threaten to rape and kill me on the internet (drove me off a male-dominated forum once, that did) and attempt to force RP on me involving cutting off my c******s, subjecting me to lethal electric shocks and covering me in vomit and faeces, to name but a few. It's true that they can't really do these things (though some of the would-be rapists and murderers claimed they knew who I was and could and would do it, if they thought they could get away with it). But it's also true that these guys are presumably walking around in RL and looking very much like normal people. How am I supposed to know who they are, and why would that not chill me to the bone?

Couple that with all the RL harassment and abuse I have encountered (way more than I can relate here, but I'm sure you can guess. Since the age of 14. And if you're wondering, no, being heavily pregnant or having a baby with you doesn't stop it and buses aren't safe) and I'm sure you will see why I think the two of them do deserve to be looked at together for an overall picture of the world I inhabit and why I hope women whine much, much more about it than they historically have.

Edited by Amina Sopwith
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38 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

However this one crosses a line. What you are effectively saying here is that if a woman experiences unwanted sexual advances, them its not the guy's responsibility to, you know, stop harrassing women. Its the woman's responsibility to not get harrassed.

I certainly didn't take his comment that way, but that's all in the eye of the reader, isn't it?  We read things through our own personal lens filled with our past and present experiences, and fill in any perceived missing blanks through that lens. 

In a virtual setting, what would be the best thing for women to do?  We can't force guys to stop harassing women, because even by reporting them, it really does nothing. Not unless there is a clear pattern of getting around the game mechanics put in place to prevent future harassment.  I'm not going to issue reports every time a random guy sends me a message stating " what size D you like? cm or inches?"  Why?  Because it doesn't break any of the LL TOS.  It's annoying, but not something they can really action. All it does is cause more work for the LL CSR, and any response they give will be a generic " thank you for reporting this.  We will further investigate this and take all appropriate actions."  and promptly close the ticket, because there is nothing that broke the rules, so nothing to action.   I should know, I sent out those responses every day, myself.  I've worked in the video game industry and dealt with a lot of harassment complaints.  Very few could be actually actioned against.   The majority can be overcome by simply blocking the person or account and moving on.

I feel like everyone wants SL to be this utopia, this perfect place they can go to and not deal with anything they don't want to.  For the most part, you can.  You can build houses or estates to live in, go to clubs and hangouts where you know and like people, you can explore and never see another person on that sim.  Yes,  you occasionally run into some jerk that comes onto you,but it's generally a small blip in the large scheme of things.  What is "utopia" though?  Utopia is defined as " an imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect. "  What one person defines as "perfect" is another person's nightmare.  You can't force all of SL, or any multi-player virtual environment, to be one person's or a small group of people's utopia, as that then forces others to endure things they don't see as "perfect".  Yes, they can leave, but where does that leave the game itself?  With fewer people to support them. 

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@Orwar Thank you for responding to my post with the maturity I've come to expect from you. 😊.

You're right of course, in most cases these approaches are not AR-worthy, unless there is stalking or RL threats involved.

But I do still think that there needs to be cultural change involved. And though you rightly point out that SL is global and other cultures may differ from ours, there are still men in the US and in Europe who do this.

And I don't think that culture should be an excuse. Men from other cultures don't get a free pass on misogyny just because they happen to have grown up somewhere else.

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3 hours ago, Orwar said:

   If it goes as far as abuse or harassment, report the person, then proceed to mute/block/derender them. Someone being a social klutz or upfront about their intentions isn't necessarily harassment though; asking never hurts, right?

   There's also a huge difference between RL harassment and abuse, and SL harassment and abuse, and it feels blatantly depreciatory to compare the two. They're not the same thing, they do not have anywhere equal consequences. In the real world, harassment generally has legal consequences, which is what we as a society do to deal with any issue - in Second Life it's unavoidable, because anyone can sign up and do as they please until someone gets them reported and dealt with; and then they can just sign up again. Dwelling on it, feeling miserable because 'oh no, someone wanted to bump my pixels and expressed this in a manner which didn't make me swoon' is nothing short of pathetic, when you're never further than a few button clicks away from disabling the person from going further.

It's not about the consequences. It's about drawing the line and not tolerating abuse of any kind. I don't expect those who have never been abused in RL to be able to understand. We have every right to protect ourselves from abuse be it in SL or RL. 

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22 minutes ago, Matty Luminos said:

And I don't think that culture should be an excuse. Men from other cultures don't get a free pass on misogyny just because they happen to have grown up somewhere else.

   Not an excuse, no; but a reason which we may have to accept rationally, even if bonking some 'common sense' into these people is very tempting. As I did mention earlier, I've had my fair share of creeps in SL (and RL), and I don't treat them very kindly - Anton LaVey said that "it's a pity that stupidity isn't painful"; I just figure that if I make it painful, perhaps they might reconsider what they're doing.

22 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

It's not about the consequences. It's about drawing the line and not tolerating abuse of any kind. I don't expect those who have never been abused in RL to be able to understand. We have every right to protect ourselves from abuse be it in SL or RL. 

   I'm not disputing your right to protect yourself, I'm merely trying to make the point that sometimes the best defense is to actually employ defense; block them and they can't hurt you.

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You know what would help arguments like this? Agreeing on what constitutes harassment. The problem, though, is that most people aren't going to agree on where the line is, or even what it is. 

A guy sending me an explicit IM isn't harassment to me. It's a dude shooting his shot, and more than likely missing entirely, but that's not harassment in my opinion. It is to some women, though. I find it offensive, mainly because the grammar is usually atrocious, and an incredibly stupid way to open a conversation that he hopes will end up with my on my back, or knees, or hog-tied and hanging from the ceiling. If he continues when I've told him I'm not interested, it's still not harassment to me - it's desperation. 

I'm going to get yelled at by my fellow females here, but I think the bar is set way too low as to what constitutes harassment. Men can't even say hello to a woman in public any longer without it being considered harassment by some women. 

I'm sure in the past I've joked that crappy pick-up lines should be illegal, but I didn't really mean it. 

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1 minute ago, Beth Macbain said:

You know what would help arguments like this? Agreeing on what constitutes harassment. The problem, though, is that most people aren't going to agree on where the line is, or even what it is. 

A guy sending me an explicit IM isn't harassment to me. It's a dude shooting his shot, and more than likely missing entirely, but that's not harassment in my opinion. It is to some women, though. I find it offensive, mainly because the grammar is usually atrocious, and an incredibly stupid way to open a conversation that he hopes will end up with my on my back, or knees, or hog-tied and hanging from the ceiling. If he continues when I've told him I'm not interested, it's still not harassment to me - it's desperation. 

I'm going to get yelled at by my fellow females here, but I think the bar is set way too low as to what constitutes harassment. Men can't even say hello to a woman in public any longer without it being considered harassment by some women. 

I'm sure in the past I've joked that crappy pick-up lines should be illegal, but I didn't really mean it. 

I am with Beth here.

An explicit IM is just sport to me.  If I am in the mood I like to try to educate them in my own way as to why it was not appropriate :D  If I am not in the mood to educate then I just ignore.  If the grammar wasn't there in the initial IM, I just don't respond to it at all.  Mostly its laughable, eye rolling, desperate and worthy of my sometimes acid tongue.  😇

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8 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

I'm going to get yelled at by my fellow females here, but I think the bar is set way too low as to what constitutes harassment. Men can't even say hello to a woman in public any longer without it being considered harassment by some women. 

Really? I don't mind hearing, "Good morning", "Lovely dress", "May I buy you a drink?" or even "Would you do me the honour of going doggystyle with me?". Though the last one was in a swingers club, so there was context. Don't say it to me on the tube. At least not until I've had my coffee.

What we have here, though, is so typical. Guy comes on whinging that men can't even say "hi how are you" without women thinking it's sexual, even though he apparently says it only to women (since they're the subject of the whinge) and tags it with all manner of sexual terms. And women, and even femme men, can tell you how 99% of the time, sexual and annoying is exactly what it is. Those experiences are relevant.

Yet OP has still framed the whole thing as a question that puts women in the wrong. It's just bog standard misogynistic crap. Oh, and of course I've been told not to talk about it, because there's always that as well.

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21 minutes ago, Orwar said:

I'm not disputing your right to protect yourself, I'm merely trying to make the point that sometimes the best defense is to actually employ defense; block them and they can't hurt you.

Except the blocking is usually done only after the fact. After the fact when the damage has already been done. Surely you aren't suggesting we block everyone just in the off chance.

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Well, I had all the "uneducated" badly written hits and intimate pics from day 1. Sure it was shocking. Not what I expected at all in SL. As I got older, and better looking, *coughs* then mesh, the hits changed dramatically. Fewer, more articulate, generally way more acceptable. Occasionally still the monosyllabic text speakers, but generally acceptable. I always run through my checklist for every encounter, and occasionally I  get a good outcome. But only occasionally, and always based on the chat.

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4 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Except the blocking is usually done only after the fact. After the fact when the damage has already been done. Surely you aren't suggesting we block everyone just in the off chance.

   By all means, if you have some alternative method - which doesn't include expecting the mentality of the entire world's population to change overnight - go for it? I think it sounds absolutely amazing, never having to worry about strangers approaching you with ill intent or exposing you to uninvited lewdness; I'm just not seeing how we turn that from fantastical idealism to reality. It would be pretty great if we didn't drown when put under water, too.

   It's my opinion that all societies should strive for harmony, it's my expectation that it just ain't happening.

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1 minute ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Really? I don't mind hearing, "Good morning", "Lovely dress", "May I buy you a drink?" or even "Would you do me the honour of going doggystyle with me?". Though the last one was in a swingers club, so there was context. Don't say it to me on the tube. At least not until I've had my coffee.

Yes, really. Tumblr is full of 3rd wave feminists being triggered by men on the subway making eye contact with them. 

4 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

What we have here, though, is so typical. Guy comes on whinging that men can't even say "hi how are you" without women thinking it's sexual, even though he apparently says it only to women (since they're the subject of the whinge) and tags it with all manner of sexual terms. And women, and even femme men, can tell you how 99% of the time, sexual and annoying is exactly what it is. Those experiences are relevant.

I'm most definitely not a guy, but I am seeing men all over the world being tried and convicted by the Court of Internet for behavior that women do not get convicted for. The vast, vast majority of men I've been in my 50 years have been amazing examples of the male of the species. Yes, there are monsters among them. I'm just bloody sick and tired of men being castigated for being men, regardless of their behavior.

Go read the comments on any feminist website. "Men are the worst." "God, I hate men." "This is why all men should be eliminated". Yes, it's hyperbolic (for the most part), but it's not helping bridge the divide between men and women, and I'm one who believes that for us to have true equity between any and all genders, bridges need to be found. I don't like to demonize groups of people just because some in the group are awful. Monsters are found everywhere, regardless of race, ethnicity, gender, orientation, religion, etc., etc., etc. We have far more in common that we have in differences, and I'd rather concentrate on those commonalities that excoriate an entire group for the differences. 

14 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Yet OP has still framed the whole thing as a question that puts women in the wrong. It's just bog standard misogynistic crap. Oh, and of course I've been told not to talk about it, because there's always that as well.

I confess that I didn't go all the way back to the beginning of this thread, mainly because the subject is phrased in such a loaded way. I saw Onwar stating he doesn't understand why the evils of men continues to be talked about so much, and yes, he could have phrased it differently (telling anyone they are whining, male, female, or unicorn, is rarely going to turn out well), but I didn't see him tell anyone not to talk about anything. Some people aren't going to like your words, some aren't going to like mine, but no one is censoring either of us. People will, and do, get sick of hearing from me, and often tell me they're sick of hearing from me. It doesn't stop me, though, and someone getting sick of my words will never shut me up about something I'm passionate about. 

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Nobody expects a perfect society, but harassment and misogyny are a bit more serious than merely having to hear about them. So if it's ok to whine about the latter....

I'm so fed up with women being made responsible for the actions of those men who are so, so, so horrid. Collective experience on here is that men who use boring, mindless openers with women almost always have bad intentions. So the answer is apparently not to invite men to consider this context, but to frame it as a question that positions women as small-minded and mean. Harassment occurs everywhere, and again, women are supposed to consider what harassment is and check their bars. 

No, society is never going to be perfect but it's not going to improve one iota if we use that as an excuse for not framing the questions properly.

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14 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   By all means, if you have some alternative method - which doesn't include expecting the mentality of the entire world's population to change overnight - go for it? I think it sounds absolutely amazing, never having to worry about strangers approaching you with ill intent or exposing you to uninvited lewdness; I'm just not seeing how we turn that from fantastical idealism to reality. It would be pretty great if we didn't drown when put under water, too.

   It's my opinion that all societies should strive for harmony, it's my expectation that it just ain't happening.

You are saying victims/survivors of abuse are just supposed to isolate ourselves even more than we already are from the rest of the world as if that will stop all abuse. Clearly you have no understanding that you are advocating further abuse of those who have already been abused. 

Edited by Selene Gregoire
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1 minute ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Harassment occurs everywhere, and again, women are supposed to consider what harassment is and check their bars. 

No, everyone is, not just women. I'm not excusing the atrocious behavior of men who behave atrociously. 

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20 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Really? I don't mind hearing, "Good morning", "Lovely dress", "May I buy you a drink?" or even "Would you do me the honour of going doggystyle with me?". Though the last one was in a swingers club, so there was context. Don't say it to me on the tube. At least not until I've had my coffee.

This is the key, I think. Its all about context. Even in SL.

If I am on a nude beach or some other kind of sex place, there's no earthly reason why I should be annoyed by a request for sex. I might not want to, but that's not the fault of the person asking. But if I am approached while I'm in a non-adult place, there's no eartly reason why he should assume it's either approprate or going to yield the results he's after. It's like shooting fish in a barrel, when the barrel is the size of Lake Superior.

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14 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Yes, really. Tumblr is full of 3rd wave feminists being triggered by men on the subway making eye contact with them. 

And the streets are full of women being groped and screamed at, a la #metoo. Which is more serious? Which has a far longer history? 

14 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Go read the comments on any feminist website. "Men are the worst." "God, I hate men." "This is why all men should be eliminated". Yes, it's hyperbolic (for the most part), but it's not helping bridge the divide between men and women

Oh my sweet summer child. Do you really want to know what's said in standard MRA websites and in the comments sections of the many waves of pornography, even the non-violent stuff? What's landed in my own inboxes? And it's not hyperbolic.

I don't wish this to become a competition, though it's impossible to respond to things like that without making it sound that way. I'll just say that, on a class level, there is far more hatred aimed at women which takes physical form than there is in the other direction. Doesn't make it right either way, of course, but it's relevant when we're talking about how women should respond to it, because as a class, they bear the brunt of it, and are still, directly and indirectly, being made responsible for it. 

I've not seen any posts on here declaring that all men are X or Y, though a few do seem to suggest that all women should, or rather shouldnt, do Y or Z. But it's a sad fact that, on a class level, these scales are simply not balanced, even with shouty Tumblr (oh dear God, really?) feminists. And it is not fair or helpful to pretend that they are when we are discussing an OP's nasty, misogynistic and loaded thread opener.

 

Edited by Amina Sopwith
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