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JulaMacArthur

SL MARKETPLACE IS A JOKE

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When it's several items with different permissions it's confusing though and what is confusing is the CONTENTS tab which, when having several items for one listing, the permission do not appear to be copy and modify because some items in the multi package may not be.  

Perhaps not having contents at all would be less confusing.  

See, I have many multi-item listings for a one price deal...but not all are copy and mod.  So I check copy / mod / see description.  This way you can get automatic re-delivery, and then begin your 'details' as "All items are copy and modify EXCEPT...."  That's how I do it anyways.  And, this is appropriate because I checked See Description also.  Or, I put in almost all my photos Please Read Details for ALL Info.  

It's the best I can do.  

Would still maybe prefer to have the CONTENTS not shown.  I could put them in a box I guess...but my new stuff I am selling inworld only right now as I wanted to really take the time to live inworld.   

And why would I want CONTENTS to not be shown, it's difficult explaining about the no modify scripts too.  Some people get it; others are very confused.  

 

Edited by FairreLilette
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This is NOT aimed at anyone in particular. "You" is a general you.

If I can't see what is in the box/folder, I won't buy it. No ands, ifs or buts about it. I don't buy anything sight unseen.

Even inworld, unless the item is in a multipanel vendor, you can still see what is in the box. It will show all permissions as no copy/no mod/no trans regardless of what they actually are because you do not own it (yet). 

Without the contents tab you could lose far more sales than you may realize. It also is a boon to sellers since they can check that tab to see if anything is missing. Sometimes things get overlooked or simply just don't make it into the proper folder/box.

The contents tab is there for the benefit of your customers and you aren't just a seller, you're also a customer if you buy any thing. So, take advantage as both customer and seller, rather than hiding the contents and losing sales. 

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On 10/24/2019 at 10:47 PM, JulaMacArthur said:

Anything you type in search tab it NEVER finds the thing you look for, there is no category for mesh body or mesh head, finding anything is always a huge pain in the A. there is 16754 categories that say "avatar-something" whitch one has mesh body and head??? ALSO WTF WITH THE DEMO SPAM? why do i have to paste THIS* evry time i search for something?

* NOT DEMO NOT Demo NOT demo
NOT _DEMO NOT _Demo NOT _demo
NOT DEMO_ NOT Demo_ NOT demo_
NOT D  NOT E NOT M NOT O 
NOT *D*E*M*O* NOT *DEMO* NOT D*E*M*O

It makes no sense to offer custom built mesh items on MP.  It is just too easy for an adversary to file a Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) notice.  Though it may be a frivolous DMCA, it still ties you up in knots.  

Edited by Erwin Solo

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1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

 

If I can't see what is in the box/folder, I won't buy it. No ands, ifs or buts about it. I don't buy anything sight unseen

Without the contents tab you could lose far more sales than you may realize. It also is a boon to sellers since they can check that tab to see if anything is missing. Sometimes things get overlooked or simply just don't make it into the proper folder/box.

The contents tab is there for the benefit of your customers and you aren't just a seller, you're also a customer if you buy any thing. So, take advantage as both customer and seller, rather than hiding the contents and losing sales. 

But to the above...I just want to say yeah, possibly...but maybe it needs a multi permission item - please read details check box or something like that because modify objects will read no modify in the CONTENTS reader if they contain no modify scripts.  So a copy/mod item with no modify scripts will read copy only and a mod/transfer item with no modify scripts will read transfer only in the 'contents' area.  However, both are modify...only the scripts are no modify and the contents reader can still read the no modify scripts the object contains. 

Whether we'll get added options is another story though.  I do try to put everywhere as best I can 'please read details for all info' because sometimes I have multi-perm items and/or have no modify scripts and that's reflected in the contents.  

It's frustrating.  

Wish there was another feature where sellers could update their items for re-delivery too without having to do it listing by listing as some sellers have hundreds of pages.  However, I do not know how to figure out any solutions.  I just do my best to ask that customers please read the details whereever I can and then explain item becomes modify upon rez due to scripts it contains which are no modify.  

Edited by FairreLilette

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There is a very good and simple explanation of how permissions work in SL on the SL wiki.

Quote

If modify is enabled, you can edit properties like item name or object scale. Modify permissions also grant you the ability to delete an object - for example, if an object has been shared with group in world, then any member of the group can modify, and therefore delete the object.

When an object is next owner no-modify, that permissions setting is interpreted as 'no one can create derivative works.' For example, if you sell a motorcycle without modify permissions, the buyer cannot make a slightly longer or re-textured version of that motorcycle without building one from scratch.

If an inventory item inside of an object is no-modify, the object itself can still be modified. Conversely, if an object is not modifiable, it's contents cannot be modified.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Permission

Sometimes it's just better to give a customer that asks about no mod scripts in an object that link so they can read for themselves and understand how all permissions work in conjunction. If they still have questions then perhaps it would be best for them to contact LL with those questions. 

There's also the permissions FAQ that @Toy LaFollette wrote on the wiki.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Help:Permissions

This section in particular:

Quote

Object Contents Examples

Permissions can also be set on items which are inside other objects. The permissions on the inside objects are picked up by the outside object. These examples will give you an idea of how they work:

Example 1

A couch maker makes a new couch with a script and animation. They don't want the next owner to change the couch. The next owner needs to be able to customize the script, but the creator doesn't want it copied or given away. The animation is a free one, so they have to allow it to be copied.

  • Couch permissions: NO Modify, NO Copy, YES Transfer
  • Script permissions: YES Modify, NO Copy, NO Transfer
  • Animation permissions: YES Modify, YES Copy, YES Transfer

The container object, the couch, will take on the permissions in your inventory of all of the inner objects permissions, so it will appear as NO Modify, NO Copy, and NO Transfer until you rez it.

If a customer still doesn't understand, I would say it's a language barrier thing. The seller has done all they can at that point and it's on the customer to seek out someone who speaks the same language to explain it to them, if the seller does not speak that language. Or the seller could go the extra mile that customers appreciate so much and ask what language, then use a translator.

 

ETA: Those links could always be added to the description on MP as well. I don't see why LL would have any objection to doing so.

Edited by Selene Gregoire

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On 10/24/2019 at 7:47 PM, JulaMacArthur said:

Anything you type in search tab it NEVER finds the thing you look for, there is no category for mesh body or mesh head, finding anything is always a huge pain in the A. there is 16754 categories that say "avatar-something" whitch one has mesh body and head???

But, to address the OP....I find with my own items I'm selling that they do not seem to come up in the keyword search.  I made a big mistake by calling my chairs 'Shabby Chic' in the title or antique or vintage instead of Victorian chair because when I type in the keyword search Victorian chair, my chairs do not come up...or else there are just a lot of Victorian chairs.  I use a lot of keywords in my listings...I wonder how many actually work?  Because to me, keyword seems to be reading the title more than keywords from what I've seen so far when using keyword search though have not researched it extensively.  

Also, yes, more categories are needed.  

A category thread would be beneficial.

I told myself I would make a notecard of all the categories I wanted but never did.

Two I remember right now are:

1)  China (dishes)

2)  Curly Hair  

Though I can agree with you on mesh body or head as I also looked for one but then decided to search store by store under the Merchants tab.

Heck, I'd even like Victorian and Shabby Chic as categories.   

And, why didn't I choose to put Victorian instead of Shabby Chic.  Queen Victoria had a passion for French antique furniture...so Victorian furniture actually is French not English.  Victorian furniture is patterned after King Louis the 15th and 16th furniture.  However, Shabby Chic has become it's own refurbished style and has become more French influenced again. 

See this link here of King Louis the 16th furniture...it looks Victorian but it isn't.  Victorian and French antique are pretty much one in the same in design.  

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1119&bih=619&tbm=isch&sxsrf=ACYBGNRUKvz3MHnfPNXwji94_1HbTS-E3A%3A1572199396265&sa=1&ei=5Nu1XevsD9HEswXrh4vQCg&q=king+louis+xvi+furniture&oq=king+louis+xvi+furniture&gs_l=img.3..0i24.2817.4815..5267...0.0..0.153.1216.0j10......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0j0i67.8_nxlOyoIcU&ved=0ahUKEwjr7p6Ug73lAhVR4qwKHevDAqoQ4dUDCAc&uact=5 

Edited by FairreLilette

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Yeah more categories would be great. For example I have made a few plug in scripts for 3d content creation in Maya but there isn't a specific category for that. Something like content creation software augmentation scripts, in which plug ins like mine (or MayaStar, Avastar and Marionette) could nicely fall into

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On 10/24/2019 at 10:47 PM, JulaMacArthur said:

Anything you type in search tab it NEVER finds the thing you look for, there is no category for mesh body or mesh head, finding anything is always a huge pain in the A. there is 16754 categories that say "avatar-something" whitch one has mesh body and head??? ALSO WTF WITH THE DEMO SPAM? why do i have to paste THIS* evry time i search for something?

* NOT DEMO NOT Demo NOT demo
NOT _DEMO NOT _Demo NOT _demo
NOT DEMO_ NOT Demo_ NOT demo_
NOT D  NOT E NOT M NOT O 
NOT *D*E*M*O* NOT *DEMO* NOT D*E*M*O

There's a simple solution to this: don't have mesh body parts. It's not what God intended.

OK, I admit I have some mesh feet, but I only backed into that because I couldn't fit any shoes or socks I bought and finally resigned to buying mesh feet so people wouldn't see me without any feet at all.

But that's as far as it goes...

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As a customer and creator I've struggled with MP's less than intuitive UI. I wish there was an auto-fill,or grouping mechanism for listing, so I wouldn't have to open an individual tab for every item to paste info and wait for thumbnail images to be added -- I'd like to do it all in one fell swoop, and change minor info like the price or permissions (it would be great for gacha resale too). It would also be awesome if, like with other shopping sites, you could include or exclude word-sets and/or categories by ticking a box to get better search results. Sure, you can kind of do that by picking a category, or changing the relevancy, from the drop-downs -- but the results are (like OP stated) often inaccurate, or some creators simply choose to not use them and stick with posting into a broader section.

So many potentially great items just get lost in the miasma of the MP...

Recently I've stuck with using flickr and other blog sites to find stores or items I want because I simply have too hard of a time searching there.

Edited by KirinGale

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On 10/25/2019 at 3:47 AM, JulaMacArthur said:

Anything you type in search tab it NEVER finds the thing you look for, there is no category for mesh body or mesh head, finding anything is always a huge pain in the A. there is 16754 categories that say "avatar-something" whitch one has mesh body and head??? ALSO WTF WITH THE DEMO SPAM? why do i have to paste THIS* evry time i search for something?

* NOT DEMO NOT Demo NOT demo
NOT _DEMO NOT _Demo NOT _demo
NOT DEMO_ NOT Demo_ NOT demo_
NOT D  NOT E NOT M NOT O 
NOT *D*E*M*O* NOT *DEMO* NOT D*E*M*O

NOT *demo* catches 99% of them. 

There's nothing to do about merchants who use D*E*M*O but that's hardly Linden Lab's fault. If you don't like it, just stop purchasing stuff from merchants who do that.

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On 10/24/2019 at 10:37 PM, Selene Gregoire said:

Demos are usually no mod so I usually tick the little mod box. I make liberal use of the copy/mod/tran check boxes.

I pretty much always check mod/copy when shoppin stuff on MP. I've got rather passionate strong opinions against items being no mod, plus it helps clear up like 90% of gacha spam as well.

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Hello KirinGale!

The Marketplace does have a Quick Fill Template that can be used when creating listings of a type. 

For example, if you create Shirts, and you offer the shirt in various colors, you can create the first listing for the item, and then use that same Quick Fill Template to fill in the bulk of the information for all of the remaining colors you are listing.  

You would only need to make minor changes so the listing so that information on each listing is appropriate to the color variation. 

The Listing Guidelines specifically state that the seller should be putting the listings for their items into the most appropriate sub-category and not in the root categories.

If a seller has placed, for instance, and outfit that has a top and skirt in it into the main Women's Outfits category and not into the Women's Skirt Outfits, then technically their listing is in violation of the Marketplace Listing Guidelines for Category Selection and they WILL lose sales on their item. 

Everything listed in sub-categories is automatically shown in the next highest up category.  So everything in the Women's Skirt Outfits is automatically shown in the root Women's Outfits category. 

Any seller who does not place their listings into the correct sub-category is, literally, selling themselves short in doing so, because anyone looking in the sub-category WILL NOT see that sellers listing. 

If someone is looking for a skirt outfit, it makes sense to go to the skirt outfits sub-category.  That seller who chose to list their items up in the main Women's Outfit category has just lost out on a potential sale since their listing will NEVER be seen by anyone looking for clothing in the Skirts Outfits subcategory. 

Think of it like this.  You go to your local clothing store, and you are looking for a Men's Boots.  What is the first thing you usually do when you enter the store? You look to see where the shoes section is.

You then look for the Men's Section.

The you look for where the Men's Boots are showing.  Although many places may mix up the Men's Shoes section by size instead of type, at the very least the Men's shoes are usually in a separate section from the Women's Shoes. 

Now translate that to the Marketplace. 

You go to look for a pair of Men's Boots.  Well, SL does't exactly use sizing as an indicator, so there is no need to list shoes by size, so they are listed by type to make it easier for the buyer to narrow down where they have to search to try to find what they are looking for.

Now imagine a seller has placed their listing for Men's Boots into root Men's Footwear Category. 

First of all, no one will see that listing if they are in the Boots sub-category, so right off the bat, that seller has lost. They will NEVER get a sale from anyone who looks in the actual Boots subcategory since their item will never be shown. 

If the buyer chooses instead to try to look using the option to search the main Men's Footwear category, knowing that sellers are prone to not put their items into the appropriate sub-category, then the buyer ends up with a mess of stuff they aren't looking for and don't want mixed in with what they do want. Making it massively harder to find what they want, and giving the perception that the Marketplace is junk and a joke. 

If is FAR easier for a buyer to look in the Men's Boots sub-category for a pair of Black Boots than it is for them to look in the main Men's Footwear category for the same thing, since EVERY listing in the Men's Footwear category is a potential match, and not just black boots. Whereas in the Boots category only those items with the word Black in them, somewhere, is a potential match.

It is far easier to go directly to the Boots subcategory and enter "black" as the search term so that 90% of the items you should see are boots that are black in the search return, instead of also having to wade through dress shoes, sneakers, etc., that you are not looking for where you might be lucky to have 20-50% of the items be black boots. 

If someone is just looking for Men's shoes and they don't really care what type, or they are interested in all types, then it makes more sense to stay with the top level/root Men's Footwear category so that they can see all of the men's shoes that are in the sub-categories are well, instead of just a particular type of shoe. 

 

 

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Oh wow, I rarely post in forums so I wasn't expecting this level of response -- so thank you! 😅

Yes, I am familiar with the quick-fill option; and while using a default prompt hastens the listing process I still find myself swarmed with multiple, open tabs, waiting on thumbnail uploads to each page, and double and triple checking that all listing information is accurate.

Even when uploading a few packs of eyes it can be difficult to spot typos or unchecked permission boxes. So I'm fantasizing of a convenient, bulk-inventory editor -- which would cluster a selection of multiple items into a single page for editing.

A bulk editor could also allow for mass edits to a single section of a product listing, without needing to rewrite other information -- say you posted in the improper category, or want to add an update log to the description,  just open the bulk editor and tack the info onto all of the relevant listings.

Further, given what you have stated, a lot of sellers are misposting then as some listings are indeed within root sections. It's not necessarily amongst older or widely-known brands, but it certainly occurs with fledgling creators. It's funny you bring up the shoes as an example, because I've often had this very trouble when searching for heels, pumps, and boots.

With the latter issue, I believe then it would suffice to just educate new creators about using MP categories more effectively... I'm not sure if a bulk listing editor would be something that could possibly be considered.

My qualms are minor, and I do appreciate you taking the time to read my post. ☺

Edited by KirinGale
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The entire marketplace needs an overhaul.  It's outdated and inefficient and makes it cumbersome to find anything specific.  The MP is filled with older stuff from 15 years ago which makes it even worse to find stuff that is new, and even using the filters doesn't always work.  It would make sense to prioritize it since it generates money for LL, but i wouldn't hold my breath.

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On 10/25/2019 at 10:33 AM, Dakota Linden said:

If the sellers themselves are complying with the Marketplace Listing Guidelines (no keyword spam, correct category for their listings, etc.), then you should have a better than 90% result on your search return. 

"Our software should work right, if sellers don't do the number one thing they're known for around here."

Way to inspire confidence. 

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Yanno if I could just filter out everything prior to 2015 or 2012, something like that … that would be nice.

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40 minutes ago, MichaMoz said:

Yanno if I could just filter out everything prior to 2015 or 2012, something like that … that would be nice.

I usually sort by age for newest.  What you suggest would be more powerful, because I could thereafter apply other sortations on the reduced list. 

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2 hours ago, Erwin Solo said:

I usually sort by age for newest.  What you suggest would be more powerful, because I could thereafter apply other sortations on the reduced list. 

Yes, I often use newest first, too...but I tend to do that in individual stores as I like to see what's new.

Regarding something else (not directed at Erwin Solo) but about search.

I wasn't sure if my Shabby Chic chairs were showing up by using the keyword Victorian Chair (which I have as one of my keywords because they are basically one in the same as Victorian furniture is/was really French reproductions by Queen Victoria at the time) and YES the chairs do show up with a keyword search.  I found them by putting in the price of my chairs.  So yes, the keyword search is working.  I never really investigated it before.

However, there are many things I've made as decor items and never found an appropriate category.  And, I told myself I would make a list and never did.

Yet my categories I would like that I remember now are:  China/Dinnerware; Curly Hair; Victorian; Shabby Chic Furniture.

Edited by FairreLilette

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I agree. This shop is a disaster the search is not relevant. You have no filter to remove demo this is the most anoying part. you cannot search for specific brand. For exemple shirt for Slink

 

In other shops you can search and make filter by brand, and many other criterias. 

 

One other things I remark is that I find many times the same article. Dupplicated articles or the sql query  is not correct.

 

An other criteria would be - classic - mesh because I already did a mistake and buy a classic cloth thinking it was mesh. Or buying demo without noticing it.

 

It is a disaster but better than shop in the game. Because you need to wait too long to see something. 1 mn per item. so search in shops in the game is worst.  Finding was always my problems. I get spam everyday of unsolicited things.  The first thngs I do is deleting all message. But when I need something I don't know how to search to find it.

Exemple I need a skin for Altamura and AK head. This is a real challenge. Hopfully I have this forum with lot of friendly and nice helpfull people.

Edited by Lureo

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20 hours ago, Lureo said:

I agree. This shop is a disaster the search is not relevant. You have no filter to remove demo this is the most anoying part. you cannot search for specific brand. For exemple shirt for Slink

 

In other shops you can search and make filter by brand, and many other criterias. 

 

It is a disaster but better than shop in the game. Because you need to wait too long to see something. 1 mn per item. so search in shops in the game is worst.  Finding was always my problems. I get spam everyday of unsolicited things.  The first thngs I do is deleting all message. But when I need something I don't know how to search to find it.

Exemple I need a skin for Altamura and AK head. This is a real challenge. Hopfully I have this forum with lot of friendly and nice helpfull people.

When I first became a mesh body I choose Maitreya.  So what I did to find just Maitreya specific clothes is:  I typed in Maitreya and THEN went to the category such as APPAREL > Women's Clothes, then either tops, skirts, dresses, or whatever, and it pulls up all the Maitreya stuff.  

Does what I am saying and the photo below make sense?   Please note though the featured items are in the way of the photograph but it really does pull up all the Maitreya stuff.  

DEMO you can remove but only by typing in 2 linden or above in your search by price area located to the left of the page.  If you want to find the 1 linden gifts, type gift and then choose a category and put in the price area say 1 linden to 5.  

[Moderator Edit: Image with Nudity removed]

 

Edited by Dakota Linden
[Moderator Edit: Image with Nudity removed]
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23 minutes ago, Lureo said:

I agree. This shop is a disaster the search is not relevant. You have no filter to remove demo this is the most anoying part. you cannot search for specific brand. For exemple shirt for Slink

 

In other shops you can search and make filter by brand, and many other criterias. 

 

One other things I remark is that I find many times the same article. Dupplicated articles or the sql query  is not correct.

 

An other criteria would be - classic - mesh because I already did a mistake and buy a classic cloth thinking it was mesh. Or buying demo without noticing it.

 

It is a disaster but better than shop in the game. Because you need to wait too long to see something. 1 mn per item. so search in shops in the game is worst.  Finding was always my problems. I get spam everyday of unsolicited things.  The first thngs I do is deleting all message. But when I need something I don't know how to search to find it.

Exemple I need a skin for Altamura and AK head. This is a real challenge. Hopfully I have this forum with lot of friendly and nice helpfull people.

I've never had any trouble pulling up stores by name just by clicking on the appropriate tab at the top of the search field.

image.png.c6bbe72f8407dad6b2a43e3850fff0ad.png

You can also add stores to favorites. 

image.png.8acf6f43e9596f56ea1f3f2b2582dbd9.png           image.png.60d317b1dcb703521bcfa4fa17f6b1e9.png 

 

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I think a place to check rigged, unrigged, or both rigged and unrigged could help greatly.  Sellers would have to put the info in, of course, and then the buyer can check the appropriate box to narrow down a search for what they are looking for.  

I'm desperately searching for unrigged hair.  I will do a keyword search over the next several days to see if any sellers are putting unrigged in their keywords or not.  

Another thing that could be helpful is to have PARTIAL MODIFY and then What is Modify in This Object: and then have boxes to check, SIZE, TEXTURE, SCRIPTS somewhere where it can be seen.  Since my objects are fully modify, then I just check the Size and Texture box but leave the script one unchecked.  Which means the size and texture are modify but the scripts are not.  

However, with so many sellers not even anywhere near the correct category such as those putting non full perm items in the full perm section, I don't know how many sellers would actually check the boxes - Size, Texture or Scripts or any combination thereof if there were a partially modify area with check boxes to check what is modify and what isn't.   

 

Edited by FairreLilette

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On 10/29/2019 at 8:26 AM, Nextio said:

 The MP is filled with older stuff from 15 years ago which makes it even worse to find stuff that is new, and even using the filters doesn't always work.  It would make sense to prioritize it since it generates money for LL

just a FYI on this. Linden started removing aged and inactive accounts and items from marketplace a while ago now.  The announcement is here:

 

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