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when I tried cat zip in the past it ran great but Catznip R12 3 runs abysmal rancid with the 2GB limitation zero fps  i think it was capped to 4GB before or higher

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40 minutes ago, iceing Braveheart said:

when I tried cat zip in the past it ran great but Catznip R12 3 runs abysmal rancid with the 2GB limitation zero fps  i think it was capped to 4GB before or higher

Not sure what you are describing. Catznip 12.3 is running like silk on my 3GB computer - even with any "viewer-settings limitations). Perhaps run some maintenance of your PC? Just thinking aloud, here.

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On 10/20/2019 at 3:06 PM, Alyona Su said:

Perhaps run some maintenance of your PC? Just thinking aloud, here.

there is nothing wrong with my pc that i know of. as for maintenance this is more of a buzzword for the defects in the second life viewer and server software, blaming user customer pc's for bad servers and software is not helpful, what would of been helpful would of been download link for viewer before they broke the damn thing.

Edited by iceing Braveheart
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19 minutes ago, iceing Braveheart said:

blaming user customer pc's for bad servers and software is not helpful

You brought up memory limitations:

On 10/20/2019 at 2:24 PM, iceing Braveheart said:

2GB limitation zero fps  i think it was capped to 4GB before or higher

but so far nobody has guessed what those limits meant. Nobody needs 4GB graphics card memory to run any SL viewer, so... I got nothing.

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i run on Catznip.  No probs with 12.3. The recommended Texture Memory for my NVdia GTX 1050Ti is 1360

a thing that I do whenever I install a new version of any viewer is set the graphics to Recommended Settings. I see how the recommended goes for a while, and then tweak to my preferred settings. Can sometimes save a bit of angst with new installs

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1 hour ago, iceing Braveheart said:

there is nothing wrong with my pc that i know of. as for maintenance this is more of a buzzword for the defects in the second life viewer and server software, blaming user customer pc's for bad servers and software is not helpful, what would of been helpful would of been download link for viewer before they broke the damn thing.

There's a link to the previous version on the Catznip download page. https://get.catznip.com/downloads R12.3 is working fine for me, too. Someone might be able to help you with some more information about your system.

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13 hours ago, iceing Braveheart said:

there is nothing wrong with my pc that i know of. as for maintenance this is more of a buzzword for the defects in the second life viewer and server software, blaming user customer pc's for bad servers and software is not helpful, what would of been helpful would of been download link for viewer before they broke the damn thing.

Uh... maintenance: Malware checkers and scrubbing, defragging hard disk (unless a SSD, unlikely based on your description) - cleaning up the over-polluted Registry, maybe even "Resetting" the PC by reinstalling Windows (which is almost guaranteed to give you a 100% or more performance boost in all your apps, including SL. The part where you say "that I know of" is the very reason I suggested it. So before you start proclaiming "all my woes are the SL Viewer" - maybe ensure that the pig dung is cleaned out of your own pen, first? Just thinking aloud.

12 hours ago, Mollymews said:

i run on Catznip.  No probs with 12.3. The recommended Texture Memory for my NVdia GTX 1050Ti is 1360

a thing that I do whenever I install a new version of any viewer is set the graphics to Recommended Settings. I see how the recommended goes for a while, and then tweak to my preferred settings. Can sometimes save a bit of angst with new installs

Ditto this. I get better performance on Catznip than I do on the Official viewer and better performance on the Official viewer than I do on Firestorm. To be clear: this is my experience. The thing is everyone's experience will be different because of their own hardware, then their own connection methods and issues and so on. @iceing Braveheart - This is the main point.

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On 10/23/2019 at 8:56 PM, Lyssa Greymoon said:

There's a link to the previous version on the Catznip download page. https://get.catznip.com/downloads R12.3 is working fine for me, too. Someone might be able to help you with some more information about your system.

information is in my signature can no one see it? I'm not sure why signatures are not view able to public in second life forums makes things allot easier when signatures are view able to public and i recently updated my signature as well

https://valid.x86.fr/1l3rzs

 

1l3rzs-4.png

 

On 10/24/2019 at 9:00 AM, Alyona Su said:

Uh... maintenance: Malware checkers and scrubbing, defragging hard disk (unless a SSD, unlikely based on your description) - cleaning up the over-polluted Registry, maybe even "Resetting" the PC by reinstalling Windows (which is almost guaranteed to give you a 100% or more performance boost in all your apps, including SL. The part where you say "that I know of" is the very reason I suggested it. So before you start proclaiming "all my woes are the SL Viewer" - maybe ensure that the pig dung is cleaned out of your own pen, first? Just thinking aloud.

Ditto this. I get better performance on Catznip than I do on the Official viewer and better performance on the Official viewer than I do on Firestorm. To be clear: this is my experience. The thing is everyone's experience will be different because of their own hardware, then their own connection methods and issues and so on. @iceing Braveheart - This is the main point.

1tb SSD if you look at signature that is hardware verified https://valid.x86.fr/1l3rzs

1000mb internet. firestorm only supports 3mb and official 10mb not sure for capzip i uninstalled catzip really fast catzip was utterly useless catzip went from greatness to why even bother existing in the first place. washing my hands of catzip now as it brings nothing new or innovative to the table now. rather then fix it they gimped it / broke it.

firestorm cant stop the crashing seems to be the memory limitations of viewer average about 10 viewer crashes an hour. is there any reason firestorm doesn't have the sunshine update?

May 29, 2013

 

i tried firestorm vs official viewer with high preset and draw distance set to 512 in both viewers and 3mb on firestorm and 10mb on official and official loaded instantly and firestorm i have to wait 3 real life hours for the grey clouds to render in curious about that one why does official have this update and not firestorm? I am sure you will wanna blame and fault my pc for firestorms faults as well as catzips faults

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52 minutes ago, iceing Braveheart said:

information is in my signature can no one see it? I'm not sure why signatures are not view able to public in second life forums makes things allot easier when signatures are view able to public and i recently updated my signature as well

to view other peoples forum signatures we have to enable it in our forums profile settings

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59 minutes ago, iceing Braveheart said:

information is in my signature can no one see it? I'm not sure why signatures are not view able to public in second life forums makes things allot easier when signatures are view able to public and i recently updated my signature as well

https://valid.x86.fr/1l3rzs

 

1l3rzs-4.png

 

No, I cannot see your signature, I didn't even know they were a thing. I was thinking more along the lines of Catznip's system info since it'll have more relevant data about SL on your computer. I'm not interested in blaming your computer or covering for Catznip, but I think the evidence suggests there's something jacked up with the Catznip configuration on your computer. Catznip does work on less capable computers and I'm sure it can be made to run properly on yours.

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7 hours ago, iceing Braveheart said:

firestorm cant stop the crashing seems to be the memory limitations of viewer average about 10 viewer crashes an hour. is there any reason firestorm doesn't have the sunshine update?

May 29, 2013

 

 

Project Sunshine was "server side baking" - see how all those avatars are in system clothing? Yes, Firestorm has had it since the project released; if they didn't you wouldn't be able to see any avatar as anything other than gray.

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10 hours ago, iceing Braveheart said:

1000mb internet. firestorm only supports 3mb and official 10mb not sure for capzip

[...]

3mb on firestorm and 10mb on official and official loaded instantly and firestorm i have to wait 3 real life hours for the grey clouds to render in curious about that one why does official have this update and not firestorm? I am sure you will wanna blame and fault my pc for firestorms faults as well as catzips faults

[Emphasis mine]

So, I understand there's a gigabit connection to the ISP, but does anybody know what these 3mb and 10mb numbers could refer to? These aren't the dopey UDP-only "bandwidth" slider limits, are they? If so, they mean as near to nothing as makes no difference. Set it at 1.5mb - or just pick a random number - and forget about it forever; it used to matter a bit more, when most everything was UDP, but there's not much remaining now. But I'm also not sure that's even whence these numbers came.

(Meanwhile, has anybody figured out the referent of the earlier "2GB" and "4GB" numbers?)

But then there's also this:

11 hours ago, iceing Braveheart said:

firestorm cant stop the crashing seems to be the memory limitations of viewer average about 10 viewer crashes an hour.

which suggests there's something dramatically broken on this computer. If SL viewers were the only big applications it runs, I'd suspect corrupted RAM (those timings aren't overclocked, surely, are they? Does anybody do that anymore?) but I'm guessing it's configuration... and this is why folks want to see the standard configuration data from "Help / About Second Life" (or "About Firestorm" or whatever) more than other hardware details. Specifically, it's important to establish that the graphics card drivers are up to date. The other thing that comes to mind here is the possibility that the GPU control panel was "tweaked" at some point (particularly OpenGL settings). Might try resetting all of those to factory defaults.

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1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

I'd suspect corrupted RAM (those timings aren't overclocked, surely, are they? Does anybody do that anymore?) 

Actually, overclocking your RAM can bring a huge bonus for current Ryzen CPU. There are very handy tools to calculate safe settings and such, but usually, loading the preconfigured XMP profile will do.

 

On topic:

Draw distance at 512 ... I think we have a winner here.

 

EDIT:

"Windows Version    Microsoft Windows Server (10.0) Datacenter Edition (Full) 64-bit" ... huh? Is that a CPU-Z bug or what?

Edited by Lillith Hapmouche
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On 10/23/2019 at 7:59 PM, Qie Niangao said:

Nobody needs 4GB graphics card memory to run any SL viewer, so... I got nothing.

I am sorry, but I had to laugh when I read that because and no offense, but if you were referring to SL 10 years ago I would have agreed. lol I would largely disagree today however as I have tested the Firestorm BoM viewer for example to name one if not the main one we all use on more then one rig and OS and as a gamer I would strongly recommend at the very least a 4 gig video card or even better fresh out the starting gate for that viewer if you want optimal performance. On a side note I have also noticed some issues testing other viewers which vary from viewer to viewer that I've personally tested up to and including Catznip that have added BoM capability to them which actually makes me wonder if there is an actual design flaw with LL's incorporation with adding BoM to the grid in itself since most viewers are developed to enhance your game play experience up on the server or grid if you will. I could be wrong, but in my testing I have noticed more issues with BoM viewers then I ever have with Non-BoM viewers. So it kind of makes you wonder mate. lol :D

To the OP I read over your specs and to be honest I do not think there is an issue with your hardware. Especially when talking about Catznip. While not exactly the viewer of my choice due to lack of some features it is an excellent choice for a system with your specs. Unless I missed it what I didn't see is what OS you are using. If your using Windows 10 and this is just my guess based of my own testing I'd say that is the culprit of part of your issues. Over half of the viewers I tested on Windows 10 ran like garbage. If I take those same viewers and run them on Windows 7 or even better Linux(Ubuntu 18.04 LTS to be exact.) I get way better performance and navigating SL is actually an enjoyable experience. I have yet to enjoy my SL experience on Windows 10. I am going to end off on that note because I have absolutely nothing positive to say about that OS right now. lol :D

My next point keep in mind this is by my own personal gaming standards which the bar is set extremely high on. I will start off by saying this is just my own personal opinion because I get people who like to argue me on this point and I don't got all that to do. That being said I feel like the other half of your issues could very well be contributed to grid/server side issues. Every time they meaning LL make a change there is a period where everything runs horrific. Project Sunshine in the video you posted is pure and complete crap IMHO. I had better load times before that was implemented. That's just to name one mate. lol :D 

IMHO adding BoM and the back end changes they made I felt like degraded server performance that was already degraded by the introduction of mesh on up in general. I notice changes more then the average person largely due to I have an extremely large inventory of over 200k items so how I load in world basically tells me how the grid is running for the day. It is also how I judge how well a viewer is made. I can take a fresh toon and load in relatively fast and have awesome performance on any viewer. It's how a viewer handled veteran toons is how I grade them mostly.

Your video card if you eventually upgrade that I feel like most of your issues would be solved. You basically have a 1 gig card that pre-mesh you could have walked around with draw distances on a 3k meter range setting on average sims and maybe half that down to 500 meters on mainland depending on where you were at. The introduction of mesh killed all that noise. Upgrades are being made to SL that SL was never designed to handle and they are being implemented poorly to put it politely.

All the viewer designers can do is try to keep up. They basically have to design the 3d web browsers to pull up high end graphics the game was never designed for or even properly upgraded to even handle in the first place. Which in effect causes most of them to become very poorly optimized attempting to handle the load in the first place which taxes systems resources to no end. Which is why I am a personal fan of Linux because Linux actually compensates for this rather well. If today's software was still compatible with Windows XP that would have been my Windows alternative as it is actually the best OS in all actuality to use for a system with your specs gaming wise because it would have in fact tripled if not quadrupled your performance given that OS only requires 512 megs of ram to operate on.

Over all if your running Windows 10 I'd try running your viewers in Windows 7 compatibility mode to see if that helps you some. I am actually testing it with Singularity's Nightly build myself because that viewer constantly crashed. So far since I had done that it has been fine. Since I run more then one OS it's a bit easier for me to say stuff it and throw in the towel because currently I am more focused on running mine on Linux. I have pretty much hit the end of my patience with Windows 10. lol :D

Give that a try and see how you go mate. Also Catznip still has their R12 2 version on the web site which is a Non-BoM viewer if I am not mistaken. Download that and give that a try as well. I'll downgrade in a heartbeat if I need to for performance gain. The only reason I don't bother with Firestorm is because eventually they force you off the older version so there really is no point in it since it is a temp fix solution anyway. Singularity is the best Firestorm alternative out there in my opinion. It has all the same features I mostly use. I just wish they had the show friends only feature in it. lol Anyway hope some of this helps and good luck mate. :)

Edited by Velk Kerang
Corrections.
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I doubt a GTX 1080ti or weirdo version of Windows are going to choke SL. One thing that does stand out is the CPU temperature. 84c seems really hot. Backing off that overclock, maybe re-applying the thermal compound and looking at a better cooler might all be worthwhile. Hit the insides with some compressed air and blow out any accumulated dust. But since it sounds like the Linden viewer is running okay, perhaps a clean install & cache cleaning of Catznip is in order. A malware scan isn’t going to hurt things, either.

Edited by Lyssa Greymoon

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1 hour ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

I doubt a GTX 1080ti or weirdo version of Windows are going to choke SL. One thing that does stand out is the CPU temperature. 84c seems really hot. Backing off that overclock, maybe re-applying the thermal compound and looking at a better cooler might all be worthwhile. Hit the insides with some compressed air and blow out any accumulated dust. But since it sounds like the Linden viewer is running okay, perhaps a clean install & cache cleaning of Catznip is in order. A malware scan isn’t going to hurt things, either.

Well I agree they should back off the overclock. In fact don't do it at all. I personally don't overclock. I've never needed to. Also pulling draw back to 128 meters could help a lot as well too and still give decent draw distance range. I still stand by what I said regarding Windows 10 though. Proof of that is in the performance when your compare various OS platforms. As far as having a 84c temperature goes it's still with in acceptable limits. It's when it hits 90c is when you should become really concerned and shut the application down. However I would add extra cooling fans to that rig as I tend to keep my temps between 60c and 70c when gaming. Even cleaning the inside out of dust with a can of compressed air could make all the difference. Also keeping the room itself cool makes a big difference as well too believe it or not. ;)

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13 hours ago, Velk Kerang said:

I still stand by what I said regarding Windows 10 though. Proof of that is in the performance when your compare various OS platforms. 

The Windows thing I meant was the weirdo datacenter long term service branch edition running on a gaming PC that Lillith pointed out. I'm not sure why anyone would run that instead of Home or Pro on a gaming PC, but in any case, I also can't think of a reason that would tank performance in one SL viewer and not another.

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17 hours ago, Velk Kerang said:

Your video card if you eventually upgrade that I feel like most of your issues would be solved. You basically have a 1 gig card

If we take the CPU-Z hardware data literally, though, the graphics card is 11264 MB, most likely this 11GB unit: ASUS Turbo GeForce® GTX 1080 Ti 11GB which by all accounts is a pretty beefy card from just a couple years ago. Other than hardware faults or extremely inopportune "tweaking" of control panel settings, it seems unlikely this is the cause of any big problems.

But on the other hand, I don't know how literally to take any of this. The "zero fps", "about 10 viewer crashes an hour", and "wait three real life hours" might generously discount as standard gamer hyperbole, but again we're left with (to me) inexplicable claims of a 4GB to 2GB reduction in some limit associated with the new Catznip, and the equally mysterious "3mb on firestorm and 10mb on official" that doesn't map to anything I recognize in these viewers... if there's sense to be made of any of this, it eludes me.

That said, I certainly agree with @Lillith Hapmouche that a 512m draw distance for ordinary use is asking for sorrow regardless of rig. I can't explain why that should become more of a concern from one version of Catznip to the next, but I guess I can't prove it wouldn't since I hardly ever use such settings (and have noticed a slight improvement in performance from the new Catznip -- with my settings, on middling hardware).

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This seems a little all over the place so ....

  1. No viewer can use more than 2GB of VRAM. It's fairly rare you will find locations in SL that need more than 1.5GB
  2. A 512m draw distance is not viable on any computer running any viewer. 128m is about the practical limit.
  3. It's Catznip, not Catzip. One is a Second Life viewer, the other is a 501(3)(c) non profit for actual cats.
  4. Your PC isn't that great, certainly not great enough to warrant a CPUZ signature flex ... Haswell is how old ?

For best results, I would recommend the OP

  1. Do a clean install of any SL viewer.
  2. Set the VRAM to the max the viewer of choice will allow, draw distance to 128.
  3. Do not mess with any debug or hidden texture settings.
  4. Be patient and accept SL is SL. 
  5. Asymmetric dual channel memory is bad. Add or remove an 8Gb stick.
  6. Don't run Windows Server on a desktop (it's not part of any viewer developers test platform, it might work fine, it might burst into flames, good luck!)
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4 hours ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

The Windows thing I meant was the weirdo datacenter long term service branch edition running on a gaming PC that Lillith pointed out. I'm not sure why anyone would run that instead of Home or Pro on a gaming PC, but in any case, I also can't think of a reason that would tank performance in one SL viewer and not another.

Oh ok I got you now. I wasn't sure if you were speaking to me on that or not. I actually had to look that datacenter thingy up. lol It looks like a version of Windows designed for a server machine. My search results didn't really give me a whole lot of real information on it. I personally wouldn't set up a server OS on anything except a sever machine myself and I am more inclined to go with a Linux OS set up for that myself. More then likely Ubuntu since that is the OS I am using currently. I agree though I couldn't think of a reason it'd tank performance either except for maybe all the bloatware that OS comes with. I would think being a version of the OS designed for server software it'd not have very much of that though. I could be wrong though. For me I wouldn't say my performance was tanked when testing it, but it was definitely degraded some. Enough to annoy me. Let's put it like that mate. lol :D 

3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

If we take the CPU-Z hardware data literally, though, the graphics card is 11264 MB, most likely this 11GB unit: ASUS Turbo GeForce® GTX 1080 Ti 11GB which by all accounts is a pretty beefy card from just a couple years ago. Other than hardware faults or extremely inopportune "tweaking" of control panel settings, it seems unlikely this is the cause of any big problems.

But on the other hand, I don't know how literally to take any of this. The "zero fps", "about 10 viewer crashes an hour", and "wait three real life hours" might generously discount as standard gamer hyperbole, but again we're left with (to me) inexplicable claims of a 4GB to 2GB reduction in some limit associated with the new Catznip, and the equally mysterious "3mb on firestorm and 10mb on official" that doesn't map to anything I recognize in these viewers... if there's sense to be made of any of this, it eludes me.

That said, I certainly agree with @Lillith Hapmouche that a 512m draw distance for ordinary use is asking for sorrow regardless of rig. I can't explain why that should become more of a concern from one version of Catznip to the next, but I guess I can't prove it wouldn't since I hardly ever use such settings (and have noticed a slight improvement in performance from the new Catznip -- with my settings, on middling hardware).

Oh I totally agree on that.I thought a lot of the same things when I first read threw it. I just didn't comment on that part because I guess I am just use to when I am reading Steam forums watching people gamer rage all the time. If they drop 10 or 20 frames they may post and say it's 40 or 50. lol So I tend to read between the lines a lot and try to hit a realistic conclusion which more often then not I found helps me, help them better. They calm it way down and do whatever fix and are happy campers again and keep it moving. lol :D

And please don't mistake me for disagreeing with anything you've said so far outside of our opinions on what would be the best card to run SL at. You can get by with a 1 gig card, but I was more referring to if you want decent play ability and performance you'd go 4 gigs on up. How they expect to run at a 512m draw distance range all the time on a 1 gig card and not have issues is beyond me. lol Now if they are in an area with no mesh builds that is definitely doable. Mesh builds are every where now and mesh alone will bring you to a screeching halt if you try to rezz to much of it in all at once. lol I tested that too in an all mesh neighborhood once and I locked everything up. lol I got it in to my head to test out the 3k meter range with mesh and on that day my computer literally spoke to me. I kid you not. It said mofo are you crazy? Turn that mess down!!!! lol :D

2 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

This seems a little all over the place so ....

  1. No viewer can use more than 2GB of VRAM. It's fairly rare you will find locations in SL that need more than 1.5GB
  2. A 512m draw distance is not viable on any computer running any viewer. 128m is about the practical limit.
  3. It's Catznip, not Catzip. One is a Second Life viewer, the other is a 501(3)(c) non profit for actual cats.
  4. Your PC isn't that great, certainly not great enough to warrant a CPUZ signature flex ... Haswell is how old ?

For best results, I would recommend the OP

  1. Do a clean install of any SL viewer.
  2. Set the VRAM to the max the viewer of choice will allow, draw distance to 128.
  3. Do not mess with any debug or hidden texture settings.
  4. Be patient and accept SL is SL. 
  5. Asymmetric dual channel memory is bad. Add or remove an 8Gb stick.
  6. Don't run Windows Server on a desktop (it's not part of any viewer developers test platform, it might work fine, it might burst into flames, good luck!)

I want to touch base on a few of your key points. Your first set of 1 to 4 is mainly want I want to touch base on. In theory on number 1. you'd be correct, but you also need to take in to account actual ram being used to run the viewer itself which if you ever have checked your processes tab you probably noticed that actually will vary. I've had Firestorm up to a good 4 gigs of ram being used at any one time. All that is based up on how much graphics your rezzing in world. I have never seen a viewer ever in all the years I played SL only use just 2 gigs of ram once it's up and running good. That will actually kill the game before you ever even have a chance to use up 2 gigs of vram. Your vram ensures you that smooth performance. Your ram is what actually keeps you in the game and ensures smooth functionality.;)

Which brings me to point number 2.. I agree with exception to on teeny tiny little difference on your point. It's minuscule small really. Any computer? Ummmm no. Just no. A 512m draw distance is definitely doable IF and people often forget the IF part, but that's IF your computer can handle it. More to the point you need both the ram and vram to back it up. I agree the average user with an older rig needs to keep it at at least 128m to ensure they have a positive and decent experience on Second Life. Think I am gonna end off there because I am not really sure what your on about on number 3. as I didn't notice anyone misspelling it, but I am old so I might miss stuff sometimes trying to still move and shake it real fast. lol Anyway I agree with pretty much the rest of what you and the rest of the crew are saying. So I got nothing else on it right now. Go team!!!! Lmao!!!!:D

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1 hour ago, Velk Kerang said:

I actually had to look that datacenter thingy up. lol It looks like a version of Windows designed for a server machine

going off the reported Windows build number 14393.  Seems the OS is the Windows 10 Anniversary Update installed over an older Windows Server Data Center OS

i looked it up as well

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22 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

going off the reported Windows build number 14393.  Seems the OS is the Windows 10 Anniversary Update installed over an older Windows Server Data Center OS

i looked it up as well

Thanks for pointing that out mate. You had better luck in your search then I did. Might be because I just did a straight copy and paste from what was posted earlier. Had me wondering if many people actually use that version. lol ;)

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5 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

No viewer can use more than 2GB of VRAM. It's fairly rare you will find locations in SL that need more than 1.5GB

No viewer other than Singularity. Defaults to video card memory. Maximum available is 8190MB. 🙀 More is always better right? 😼

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1 hour ago, Willow Wilder said:

No viewer other than Singularity. Defaults to video card memory. Maximum available is 8190MB. 🙀 More is always better right? 😼

 ... that's really bad .. probably a bug.

In any case, your video cards ram is used for more than just whatever SL viewer or game is running at the time. The OS uses some, browsers, video streams, etc etc. No single application should ever even try to use it all.

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