Public Chat or IM? Has a Culture Shift in SL Made It Harder to Meet People?

[Selene Gregoire]

26 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

...looks carefully at her friends list before setting you on fire, twice.

I"m pretty sure you know that isn't what I meant. It is nice to have people on my list and hear from them once in a while. It's really hard being a shoulder for decades and not have a shoulder of your own.

...basks in the double warmth of Maddy's Lurve.

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Selene Gregoire

[Maitimo]

This forum needs Hug buttons. So many posts here deserving of hugs.

But back to a couple of earlier posts;

On 10/20/2019 at 6:24 PM, Caerolle Llewellyn said:

Then again, I have 'Lesbian' as the first word in *my* profile, and while I guess that might cut down on men wanting to scene with me or have sex with me (which is pretty much the same thing in the end), I still get IMs from guys. I used to ask them if they read my profile, and of course they said no. *That* is the really rude part of cold IMs, to me,

Yep, I get this a lot too; a lot of guys assume I'm a girl even when I'm not trying to be femme. And I have it mentioned three times in my profile that I am male in SL and RL. And still they IM me with hopeful hopeless pick-up lines without reading my profile. So I ask them if they've actually read it, and obviously they haven't. After a few moments of silence, while they actually do read it, they either insult me or quietly block me.

That said, I got a cold IM from a guy a couple of weeks back, the purpose of which was solely to say how much he liked my profile, and he'd clearly read all of it. I'm kicking myself now for not offering a friend request.  But IMs like that from men are as rare as hen's teeth.

On 10/20/2019 at 7:44 PM, Caerolle Llewellyn said:

Wow. Just wow. And I had never heard of using group lists to spam people with IMs before, especially to proposition people. I would hope people who did that would at the least get kicked from the group...

They absolutely do. I had to leave all but two of the disability-related groups because it turned out that most of them weren't support or social groups at all -  I got so fed up with getting hit-on by people with a fetish for amputees who were joining these groups solely to get access to the members' lists. And those people are often less picky about gender, they're only interested in stumps, so telling them I am a guy often didn't put them off. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

17 hours ago, kali Wylder said:

I get plenty of IMs while I'm hosting from people that I don't know and I never know if I'm being hit on or not until we've conversed for a bit.  I don't judge, I listen and respond.

This is the reasonable way to go about things, isn't it? It's more or less what I do. I do sometimes judge, of course, but on the basis of what is said, not on the mode by which they have chosen to communicate to me -- even if I am personally less comfortable receiving an IM.

Prejudgement is complicated and problematic, but also somewhat understandable. One of the ways in which humans learn is through experience. Touch a hotplate that's on once, and you learn pretty quickly not to do it again. Jay walk across a busy street a couple of times, nearly getting hit each time, and your brain will communicate to you -- probably -- that this isn't a good idea. Get 10 IMs from men, and 9 of them turn out to be from people who are hitting on you, and we are similarly tempted to conclude, the next time we receive one from a man, that the likelihood is high that you've about to be hit on again.

The problem with that model, whether it is statistically accurate or not (and we are not always good at actually processing and calculating this kind of information, because we tend to remember certain experiences better than others, as well as falling victim to confirmation bias), is that, when we impose a statistical model upon an individual, there's a good chance that we are doing an injustice to that individual. Personally, I'd rather err on the side of the angels, and suffer through nine crappy pickup lines, than to falsely and unfairly respond to the one good person who is just trying to connect. So, yeah, I listen and then judge, if a judgement proves to be necessary.

Sometimes I don't need to listen very long. And sometimes I do. In one very recent case, I became in-world friends with a guy who was clearly hitting on me, but was also articulate, intelligent, and interesting. I gave him a chance to demonstrate that he could be a "friend" and wasn't only interested in sex. I chatted with him regularly for about 3 months, met with him in-world, and helped him upgrade his avatar. For a brief, shining moment, I thought maybe I had made a friend, even though the come-ons continued, although at a reduced level of intensity. Clearly, however, his frustration at my intransigence proved too much for him: he recently unfriended me.

I don't consider that wasted time, however, nor do I apportion "blame." I wasn't giving him what he wanted and, in the final analysis, he was obviously incapable or uninterested in being the kind of friend I wanted. We tried: it didn't work. Onwards and upwards, say I.

17 hours ago, kali Wylder said:

The thing I truly love about SL is that as a woman I don't have to feel afraid that someone intends to rape me.  It can't happen here. So they want a pixel hookup, so what? I can say no thanks.  If they don't listen when I tell them politely, I can block them. I find that wonderfully freeing.

This is absolutely true: part of the real power of SL is the way it has provided a "safe space" for all sorts of people who didn't always feel secure about being who they wanted to be in RL. And it has unquestionably freed many women to interact in ways and contexts that they might consider threatening or dangerous elsewhere.

That said, and I know you'll agree with this, the fact that sexual harassment, misogyny, and threatening behaviour is so much more easily managed and mitigated here doesn't make such behaviours any more acceptable. People who are threatening or harassing are still engaging in vile behaviour, and the fact that I can easily block someone who does this doesn't make him any less guilty of being a POS.

Edited October 21, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Selene Gregoire]

53 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This is the reasonable way to go about things, isn't it? It's more or less what I do. I do sometimes judge, of course, but on the basis of what is said, not on the mode by which they have chosen to communicate to me -- even if I am personally less comfortable receiving an IM.

Prejudgement is complicated and problematic, but also somewhat understandable. One of the ways in which humans learn is through experience. Touch a hotplate that's on once, and you learn pretty quickly not to do it again. Jay walk across a busy street a couple of times, nearly getting hit each time, and your brain will communicate to you -- probably -- that this isn't a good idea. Get 10 IMs from men, and 9 of them turn out to be from people who are hitting on you, and we are similarly tempted to conclude, the next time we receive one from a man, that the likelihood is high that you've about to be hit on again.

The problem with that model, whether it is statistically accurate or not (and we are not always good at actually processing and calculating this kind of information, because we tend to remember certain experiences better than others, as well as falling victim to confirmation bias), is that, when we impose a statistical model upon an individual, there's a good chance that we are doing an injustice to that individual. Personally, I'd rather err on the side of the angels, and suffer through nine crappy pickup lines, than to falsely and unfairly respond to the one good person who is just trying to connect. So, yeah, I listen and then judge, if a judgement proves to be necessary.

Sometimes I don't need to listen very long. And sometimes I do. In one very recent case, I became in-world friends with a guy who was clearly hitting on me, but was also articulate, intelligent, and interesting. I gave him a chance to demonstrate that he could be a "friend" and wasn't only interested in sex. I chatted with him regularly for about 3 months, met with him in-world, and helped him upgrade his avatar. For a brief, shining moment, I thought maybe I had made a friend, even though the come-ons continued, although at a reduced level of intensity. Clearly, however, his frustration at my intransigence proved too much for him: he recently unfriended me.

I don't consider that wasted time, however, nor do I apportion "blame." I wasn't giving him what he wanted and, in the final analysis, he was obviously incapable or uninterested in being the kind of friend I wanted. We tried: it didn't work. Onwards and upwards, say I.

This is absolutely true: part of the real power of SL is the way it has provided a "safe space" for all sorts of people who didn't always feel secure about being who they wanted to be in RL. And it has unquestionably freed many women to interact in ways and contexts that they might consider threatening or dangerous elsewhere.

That said, and I know you'll agree with this, the fact that sexual harassment, misogyny, and threatening behaviour is so much more easily managed and mitigated here doesn't make such behaviours any more acceptable. People who are threatening or harassing are still engaging in vile behaviour, and the fact that I can easily block someone who does this doesn't make him any less guilty of being a POS.

All. of. this. Every bit of it. That's how I've always been in SL. I'm not going to change who (and how) I am just to suit someone who thinks I'm "doing it wrong". This is part of who I am. Like it or not. Deal with it or not. Sadly, most choose not. That's the part that never makes sense.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

All. of. this. Every bit of it. That's how I've always been in SL. I'm not going to change who (and how) I am just to suit someone who thinks I'm "doing it wrong". This is part of who I am. Like it or not. Deal with it or not. Sadly, most choose not. That's the part that never makes sense.

I am fortunate in that I still have a fair number of friends in-world, some old, and some newer.

BUT . . . I don't think that there's much question that the nature of those friendships has changed a great deal in 11+ years. One really obvious change is that I relatively seldom now "hang out" with friends at places -- most usually, I'm in IM with them instead. That's at least as much my fault as anyone's: I'm most often doing stuff in-world, like photography.

Another is that the communities to which we once belonged together either no longer exist, or have been weakened a great deal.

What I think is generally true is that there has been a sort of loosening of the bonds of the really tight friendships I used to have. It's all much more casual now.

On the other hand, there is the forums, which have pretty much always been really important to me. And my sense of the friendships, and community here, is that it is as strong, and probably a whole lot more pleasant, as it has ever been.

Selene, I don't know much about the quality or strength of your in-world friendships, but I do know that you are an absolutely central, prominent, and important part of the community here. You are a valued and admired voice. And, for me anyway, that counts for a lot.

[Tari Landar]

I thought I did a much better job at applying my words to my experiences, my opinions and my thoughts-and how others' of the same may affect me(or other people). Apparently such was, and is, not the case.

I don't have to like, agree with, or even understand others ways to know and respect that they have their ways-and that also applies to their reasons for their ways (or no reasons at all, really,, I don't think they're a necessary requirement). I will not outright tell anyone "you're wrong" on this, because...you're not. If it works for you, it can't be wrong, then, can it (it doesn't have to work for others, just you)? We don't have to agree to both (all?) be right, as it pertains to ourselves. I (we) can debate about whether or not I (we) agree with others' ways, and how their ways might affect me (us), or others, without saying they're absolutely wrong. I'm not sure absolutes of any sort (global absolutes, not individual) are all that helpful, but I'm probably wrong in that assumption too. 

I can also, without a shred of a doubt say, discussions like this make me scared to even post on the forums, much less talk to anyone in-world. I don't think I'm alone in that. There are too many absolutes here for my own comfort, and now I'm worried that any interaction I have with anyone is going to be the wrong one, the wrong way, or is going to piss off the wrong person. So I shall stick with things I'm good at discussing, admittedly, very little, lol. 

Thank you everyone anyway, because I do love a good discussion, no matter how I end up coming out in the end

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

4 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

I can also, without a shred of a doubt say, discussions like this make me scared to even post on the forums, much less talk to anyone in-world. I don't think I'm alone in that. There are too many absolutes here for my own comfort, and now I'm worried that any interaction I have with anyone is going to be the wrong one, the wrong way, or is going to piss off the wrong person. So I shall stick with things I'm good at discussing, admittedly, very little, lol.

I'll admit I've been surprised by how heated this discussion has been. What's particularly odd is that I haven't noticed a lot of "attacking" going on here; certainly, I've seen a great many nastier flaming in other threads than we're seeing here. Rather, it seems that a number of people have felt hurt or slighted by the preferences and assumptions that others have expressed, generally without (I think) any intent to produce rancour.

Which, I guess, is an important point, and maybe the central thing I've learned from this: that single-minded and unempathetic characterizations of communications strategies are inevitably going to alienate others who don't see their needs and desires being reflected or taken into account. In other words, we need to take into account not merely the feelings and preferences of the communicator, but also of the audience.

23 hours ago, Tari Landar said:

People that get irritated with others for simply IMing them without asking first in local do confuse me a bit, even if I understand they may have reasons an respect that they have reasons. I don't understand why some people seem(ed) so angry, or bothered, by people who really are just wanting to strike up a conversation with them.

So, here's something else I think I've learned from this thread, maybe.

I don't think it matters whether or not I "understand" or am "confused" by the reasoning behind someone's particular choice of IMs or local chat. It's nice if I do, and maybe useful, and probably good practice in empathetic understanding -- but in the final analysis, how I treat someone's choices should have nothing to do with whether or not I "understand" them.

Rather, my response should be based upon a respect for the choice they've made, regardless of whether I understand or agree with that choice.

And that's because communication is, by definition, always involving at least two parties. So, it's not enough for me to use my style -- be it local or IM -- merely because it seems logical or reasonable or just better to me, because the act of communicating with someone else means that I am imposing my choice upon them.

So, connecting with someone else, whatever my preference of mode, should surely take into account the possibility that the person with whom I wish to connect has different preferences, and may even find my choice uncomfortable, alien, or difficult to use.

I'm not sure what taking that into account looks like on the ground. Probably it depends upon context. But at least we can all make efforts not to assume that everyone else is going to be comfortable with our preferred mode.

I hope we can agree on that much?

[Amanda Crisp]

I’d use that “Hug Button” on Tari if we had one. I always enjoy reading her thoughts even when we might not agree :-)

I’ll come back to this thread by saying that “communication in SL” is hard. Recently I’ve had some experience at HOW hard when I had a reason to “accept applications” for something related to my SL personal life and a community I participate in.

It was truly amazing at how many different meanings people can put on the same words based on culture, RL gender, previous life-experiences and our various passions.

That role remains unfilled, but I have to say that the Social Tourist in me has enjoyed talking to all these people :-)

...and we wonder why Global Peace & Understanding elude us ?

My .02 cents is that the commit to TRY to understand each other is more important than the success-rate.

The insight I get from even “problematic” conversations makes *me* more insightful, and the situation is only a failure if I stop trying.

*hugs*

[Syo Emerald]

Reading the entire thread during my lunch break has taught me one thing: Some people think they can judge my parents job at teaching me manners by judgeing if I chose public chat or IM to talk to them. What a stretch. I think I'm with Tari on this one. Better to be silent, than to accidently offend someone with an IM.

[steeljane42]

3 minutes ago, Syo Emerald said:

Better to be silent, than to accidently offend someone with an IM.

Or just do things your way and if you encounter someone who reacts weirdly - you just saved yourself a lot of time, because anyone who freaks out on a harmless IM will freak out on other harmless things as well, like something you do or say, just the matter of time when you find that "something".

That's I've been doing for a long while by now. I also do read profiles, though. So if someone has the "don't IM me unless you know me", then same thing as above applies - I just don't talk to that person at all.

[Syo Emerald]

21 minutes ago, steeljane42 said:

Or just do things your way and if you encounter someone who reacts weirdly - you just saved yourself a lot of time, because anyone who freaks out on a harmless IM will freak out on other harmless things as well, like something you do or say, just the matter of time when you find that "something".

That's I've been doing for a long while by now. I also do read profiles, though. So if someone has the "don't IM me unless you know me", then same thing as above applies - I just don't talk to that person at all.

You are probably right...and I do like to read other peoples profiles, too. 

[Beth Macbain]

I think it will be really sad if the takeaway from this discussion is that people should make their personal bubbles even smaller and not reach out to people they find interesting in whatever manner they're most comfortable with. This discussion has been heated at times, but I don't think it has been a fight or ugly. Some things that seem perfectly innocuous at first can turn into hard conversations, and out of those hard conversations often comes acceptance and understanding. 

The truth is that every single one of us is different (and isn't that awesome?) and we all view things through our own perspectives. What I think comes out of conversations like this is, hopefully, a bit of seeing things from other's points of view. I absolutely understand why a lot of people prefer local chat. It's not something I will likely ever be comfortable doing. None of us are right or wrong in our thinking - it's a matter of comfort or preference. 

What I would hope to see come out of this is that we each take this forward into the way we interact with others, or the way we react when approached in the way that isn't our preferred method, and maybe stop and take a breath to consider that the person contacted you because there was something about you that drew them to you, in the method they find most comfortable, and to remember there are reasons for that. 

I think it's also perfectly fine to say to someone, "Hey, I'm not comfortable with this. Can we chat in *insert preferred method*?"

[Maitimo]

My main takeaways from this thread; 

I really should IM some of you lovely people more often

And, if any of you would like to IM me at any time, please do!

[Selene Gregoire]

4 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

Reading the entire thread during my lunch break has taught me one thing: Some people think they can judge my parents job at teaching me manners by judgeing if I chose public chat or IM to talk to them. What a stretch. I think I'm with Tari on this one. Better to be silent, than to accidently offend someone with an IM.

This is just the kind of overblown kneejerk, judgemental reaction that makes me hate humans. Deliberately taking things out of context and then twisting them to mean the complete opposite.

To hell with people. I'm sick of the stupid bs they are always pulling just to hurt others deliberately because they don't bother to actually get to know the people they hurt. They'd much rather carry on with their narrow minded view because they already got theirs and don't give a flying flip about any one else.

No wonder there will never be world peace or space travel. Just look at how they treat others! Like heaping, steaming piles of manure! 

No, I'm not going through this crap yet again. It's not worth it.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, Matty Luminos said:

My main takeaways from this thread; 

I really should IM some of you lovely people more often

And, if any of you would like to IM me at any time, please do!

Thinking about this thread the other day, I remembered some lovely instances of casual connection, by both IM and in chat, with strangers.

A few months ago, I was taking a pic in a sim when I was IMed by someone -- a Japanese man -- who was passing by. I get a lot of IMs while I'm out and about taking pics, and they are often of the "Hey sexy!" or "Nice butt!" variety, but this one began by complimenting me on my Flickr feed, and my photography. He was a photographer too, and we chatted for about a half an hour. He asked to take my pic (which I actually posted on the "What Does Your Avatar Look Like" thread), and I said yes. And he offered me friendship, which I accepted. He was lovely.

On another occasion a while ago, my alt Laskya asked a question about Omega relays in the Altamura group. I got some good answers, but after the group chat ended, a woman who had been marginally involved in the discussion IMed me separately. She had a bit of information to add to what had already been said, but really she just wanted to chat. And so we did, about I don't even remember what, for maybe 45 mins. We didn't friend -- I doubt I'll ever run across her again -- but it was a really delightful conversation, and I was glad she reached out.

A third occasion, which happened in local, was even less consequential, and happened last Saturday. I was at a dance animation store, checking out dances on a pose stand, when I woman tried to sit on the same stand I was on. She said "Oops!," and apologized (in local): she explained that she usually had other avatars derendered while shopping, and didn't know I was already on the stand. I Lol'ed, and told her it was fine, and that I'd be done in a minute. And in a minute or so, I was, and told her (in local) that the pose stand was all hers. She jumped on it, and said "Thanks!" just before I TPed away. It was, as I say, a total nothing conversation -- but for some reason, that brief, friendly, open exchange actually sort of made my day.

Mostly, in fact almost always, I like people. People are why I'm in SL, and on this forum, in fact.

And even if it is true that I prefer local over IMs as a way to talk to people I don't know, in the final analysis what matters is who they are, and how we connect.

So, to you -- and to Syo, or Bitsy, or anyone else here who has expressed alarm over people who don't like IMs -- please, go ahead and IM me. It's the voice at the other end of the line, not the route that voice takes to me, that really matters.

[Selene Gregoire]

16 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

So, to you -- and to Syo, or Bitsy, or anyone else here who has expressed alarm over people who don't like IMs -- please, go ahead and IM me. It's the voice at the other end of the line, not the route that voice takes to me, that really matters.

Please let me know if anyone actually listens.

Not once have I ever said I don't like IMs yet there are those who quite obviously immediately jumped to that exact conclusion. Yet, I'm the one at fault because I have an aversion to guys IMing me out of the blue for no other reason than to proposition me. I'm the one at fault because I was raped and it makes me extremely leary of men. I am at fault for wanting to protect myself! Sure I can block, tp away, or log out but that does not change how such things affect victims of rape. It does not change our initial reactions of self preservation.  Oh wait... I forgot... it's all my fault.

I keep asking myself why I bother and I still don't know the answer other than to say I can't stop caring or needing companionship like every other human out there.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Yet, I'm the one at fault because I have an aversion to guys IMing me out of the blue for no other reason than to proposition me. I'm the one at fault because I was raped and it makes me extremely leary of men. I am at fault for wanting to protect myself! Sure I can block, tp away, or log out but that does not change how such things affect victims of rape. It does not change our initial reactions of self preservation.  Oh wait... I forgot... it's all my fault.

This sort of reality for many people is a pretty dramatic example of why I think we all need to be a bit more sensitive and thoughtful about how we connect to people. It's not, as you say, that IMs are necessarily "bad" -- it's that in particular contexts, or for particular reasons, they might be unwelcome to some people, or inappropriate, or even upsetting.

And we've heard from people here too who are uncomfortable with interacting in local, because of social anxieties, or whose disabilities make it more difficult to use: they of course matter too.

Really, maybe, it's less important to worry about which window we use when connecting, and more valuable to try to nurture a culture of respect, so that we are not always assuming that whatever makes us comfortable must necessarily be the best or only solution? And, of course, central to a culture of respect is not treating others you don't know as though they were meat, whether it's in local or IM.

[Selene Gregoire]

14 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

it's less important to worry about which window we use when connecting, and more valuable to try to nurture a culture of respect,

This is the whole point. While respect does have to be earned, you also need to give, at least, a modicum of respect to those you haven't met yet, when you introduce yourselves to them. It's the method, not the medium, that determines the outcome. I just don't understand how people can't see that.

[Syo Emerald]

49 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

This is just the kind of overblown kneejerk, judgemental reaction that makes me hate humans. Deliberately taking things out of context and then twisting them to mean the complete opposite.

To hell with people. I'm sick of the stupid bs they are always pulling just to hurt others deliberately because they don't bother to actually get to know the people they hurt. They'd much rather carry on with their narrow minded view because they already got theirs and don't give a flying flip about any one else.

No wonder there will never be world peace or space travel. Just look at how they treat others! Like heaping, steaming piles of manure! 

No, I'm not going through this crap yet again. It's not worth it.

Oh, for fs sake, can you stop playing on the tiniest violine of the world for a second?

I did not twist what you said. Here. I quote it for you. Page 6 of this thread, first post from the top, as a response to Scylla:

"I know etiquette changes over the decades but that doesn't excuse the rudeness of people cold IMing someone they don't know. Does it never occur to anyone that the polite (correct) thing to do is ask the person in open chat if it is ok to IM them? I'm not talking about PC here. I'm talking about good old fashioned manners that parents are supposed to teach their children but apparently no longer bother to do so. If you can't be bothered to use good manners, I can't be bothered to deal with you, much less want to be your friend."

I bolded the most relevant part. Now tell me, how is that taken out of context? Taken out of context would mean, that the context somehow changes the meaning of what you said and thats not the case. First you make a statement of what good manners are and that everyone who has them should universly know, that IMing a stranger goes against good manners and those who do it apparently have parents that failed to teach their children. Absoluty zero twisting done. Those are your unaltered words.

I don't even know where to begin to take this paragraph apart. Its quite the stretch to go from "This person IMs me" to "Their parents failed at teaching them proper manners". Like...what the heck? After that statement you are the last person in this entire thread that should whine about others being judgemental on you. You just judged every persons manners, their parents ability to raise their children properly and have the audacity to claim what good manners are regarding person the person messaging system in a roughly 15 year old virtual world...because old fashioned manners and because you don't like IMs and view them in a very particular way. Amazing!

Speaking of overblowing things: Jumping from slightly emotional discussion about everyones view on communication style in SL to hating mankind and this is why we never archieve world peace and space travel is so absurd, its almost funny again. But I'm definitly not in the mood for laughing right now. I admit, I'm angry now. You are very liberal and quick to dish out harsh statements about others, but the very moment anything comes back at you or goes against what you stated as fundamental, universal truths, you drop to the floor and give us your best victim play, using the fact that many people on this forum are extremely kind and considerate people and would rather back off, than discuss you further. I'm not giving you that benefit anymore.

To conclude: You are the last person to complain about narrow minded views or judgement. You have plenty of both yourself.

[Gabriele Graves]

One thing about the forums that never fails to have me shaking my head with incredulity is that it only takes someone to say "I don't like ...", "I don't usually" or "I prefer ..." and without fail in a few posts down comments start to appear about people "freaking out about ..." or "have huge problems with ...".   The characterisation of what people write and mean escalates faster than a speeding bullet here.

I don't think that helps keeping discussion civil at all.

[Gabriele Graves]

On a further note, I would like to recognise Scylla's efforts at trying to diffuse bad feelings and escalation generally but in especially in this topic.  It is a thankless task at best, one I am not very good at personally and sometimes it seems that trying to help people understand where other people are coming from just ends up with all that bad feeling coming your way.  So Scylla, I appreciate your efforts at attempting it.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

51 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

On a further note, I would like to recognise Scylla's efforts at trying to diffuse bad feelings and escalation generally but in especially in this topic.  It is a thankless task at best, one I am not very good at personally and sometimes it seems that trying to help people understand where other people are coming from just ends up with all that bad feeling coming your way.  So Scylla, I appreciate your efforts at attempting it.

I thought maybe that the next thread I start would be about me shredding my clothes, disheveling my hair, and running around wildly waving my arms and making rude noises. Just for a change of pace.

Are you in?

[Selene Gregoire]

Apparently, general statements are now considered personal attacks. No matter what I say, it's going to be considered a personal attack. Been there, done that, burned the t-shirt.

[Maitimo]

38 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Apparently, general statements are now considered personal attacks. 

That's been the case since the dawn of the internet. 

Actually it's probably been the case since the dawn of human language.

[Beth Macbain]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I thought maybe that the next thread I start would be about me shredding my clothes, disheveling my hair, and running around wildly waving my arms and making rude noises. Just for a change of pace.

Are you in?

Let's do religion next!