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AboveAlchemy

Questions regarding Bellisseria Community

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Obviously we all are entitled to have opinions, I would simply ask if you wish to share yours here, keep it to the topic, try not to make any personal attacks, thread is not intended to divide, but rather collect common ground ideas for the greater good of this new chapter called Bellisseria.

I think in the past Linden Home setup, LL learned a lot of lessons from it, I don't think it was a failed exercise, but I do think lots of opportunities of engagement we're lost, or not explored at all. 
Many times when I joined SL back in 2012, even tho I was surrounded by houses I felt like I never really met anyone, there was never a place where ppl from the surroundings would gather or be motivated to gather and create new relationships, apart from the atrocity of the Safe Hubs (Pandora box on it's own)

Very often I drive, walk, horse ride, boat around Bellisseria, often try to stop by and say hello to random ppl that I come across in my adventures, perhaps we have talked before, the majority of the time ofc I try to reach out without crossing their properly line as some are very sensitive about that topic, regardless, after many many hours of exploring Bellisseria, I've noticed, even tho there are some public spots such as the pickle place, some parks, lodge, fairgrounds, even a dog park, and to be fair ofc I know the entire project isn't done yet, but I couldn't help to notice the old yet familiar absence of social spots that are actually advertised or encouraged to be used by LL, these places of which I mentioned above, because of the lack of events and circumstances to facilitate the using of these locations, they all became deserted.


The pickle place, it's super cute, yet do we really need 5 or more of them? no, we don't, I think if one was actually used, actually encouraged to be used, certainly one would've been enough. I spoke with a Linden person while watching Moles working, and I brought this up with him.
We have this beautiful new continent, but often it is left to the citizens to sort it out, sounds wonderful on paper,  ofc it does, but reality is, citizens are the most limited in this scenario, we can't built, we can't change streams, we can't rez things, makes extremely hard to give a sense of "something different", what do I mean by that? a wonderful Bar/Pub/Bakery per example built inside a Linden Home, it doesn't matter how beautiful the build is, how clever, bottom line is still a Linden Home decorated as something else.

Why don't we have places built with the solo purpose for ppl to go hang out? socialize, RP, talk, meet, hook up whatever.
Why Bellisseria with this massive amount of sims,  would allow anyone feel they need to leave the continent to meet new ppl? there's more than enough ppl living here, why LL allows this? 
I think letting the community search for basic social encounters outside Bellisseria is a massive mistake and works against the whole point of "community".

Owning a spot  in Bellisseria and all the fun features that comes with the ownership of a spot, sure is value for the price we pay for the premium membership, but as a long term engagement, it's only so many times one will move homes and decorate and redecorate over and over and over, soon that will get old, and the membership won't be renewed, then what? we're left with the old Linden home estates, the infamous " populated desert ".

So here are my questions to you;

1. Do you think Linden Labs are taking any steps to not only have a community visually but also stimulating community mentality in Bellisseria?

2. Do you wish Linden Labs should build places with the solo purpose of hang outs?

3. Would you like to have a bowling alley? a post office? a bar? a club ? a car wash? a restaurant? a sports park? a community center building? would you like to be part and "RP work" (for free ofc) at any of these spots perhaps make a schedule with citizens of Bellisseria doing rounds?

4. Do you think Linden Labs involvement (not Moles) in the aspect of the community such as attending events, getting to know ppl at proposed hanging out spots, could be a valuable tool to further bridge the space and disconnection between "us and them mentality"?

5. Would you like to have a monthly agenda based "Town Hall" meeting event where we all as citizens could help Linden Labs have a real time feedback on what has been working and what can be done to improve the community? 

6. Do you wish Bellisseria to have either it's own website or a place in the secondlife.com website for all things Bellisseria?

 

I think this new Linden Labs team do have the right heart, I don't think Bellisseria is a marketing only exercise to grab more memberships, but I also think, they as much as we do, need leadership and help understanding that community is not a gathering of houses and sims, community is the bond we have with each other.

Hope to read your thoughts here, and thanks for sharing it.

Rachel

 

 

 

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Maybe you haven't been paying attention, but there have been and still are plenty of community events (currently, there is a Halloween decorating contest going on), and Lindens and Moles are almost always in attendance. I don't notice any "us and them" mentality at all. There are photos scattered throughout the threads here proving that they do walk among us. Regularly. 

You may have also missed the recent gift hunts provided by LL and the Moles. Read some of the other threads here to see just how much is going on. As for hang outs, the most recent one is the beautiful lodge just opened in Campwich Forest, but there are others, including a dog park in a new region yet to be released. Again, this is all documented in threads here in the forums.

I suggest you join the Bellisseria Citizens Group and/or the events group so you can get notices of what all is happening around you. 

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17 minutes ago, AboveAlchemy said:

1. Do you think Linden Labs are taking any steps to not only have a community visually but also stimulating community mentality in Bellisseria?

2. Do you wish Linden Labs should build places with the solo purpose of hang outs?

3. Would you like to have a bowling alley? a post office? a bar? a club ? a car wash? a restaurant? a sports park? a community center building? would you like to be part and "RP work" (for free ofc) at any of these spots perhaps make a schedule with citizens of Bellisseria doing rounds?

4. Do you think Linden Labs involvement (not Moles) in the aspect of the community such as attending events, getting to know ppl at proposed hanging out spots, could be a valuable tool to further bridge the space and disconnection between "us and them mentality"?

5. Would you like to have a monthly agenda based "Town Hall" meeting event where we all as citizens could help Linden Labs have a real time feedback on what has been working and what can be done to improve the community? 

6. Do you wish Bellisseria to have either it's own website or a place in the secondlife.com website for all things Bellisseria?

1. Yes, I do. 

2. They have. They're all over Bellisseria. 

3. Yes, to most of those things, but no to anything that requires any sort of RP. Also, yes, to these things AFTER the Lindens and Moles have created enough living spaces to calm everyone down. 

4. I don't feel any sort of "us vs. them mentality" and at pretty much every Bellisseria event I've gone to (the ones at the fairgrounds) there have been both Lindens and Moles in attendance. 

5. In theory, this sounds like a great idea. In reality, though... have you ever been to a homeowner's association meeting? 

6. No. That would absolutely foster an "us vs. them mentality" in regards to Bellisseria residents and every other resident on the grid. 

One thing you're forgetting in all of this, I think. Bellisseria isn't meant to be an all-inclusive, self-contained environment. LL depends on people spending money, and that's not going to happen if Bellisseria residents never leave Bellisseria. 

I do feel as if the events that were happening in the beginning have died down, and I know some of the reasons, but not all. There were regularly scheduled Pickle parties for a while, events at the fairgrounds on the weekends, and a pretty decent calendar. I think things quickly became very clique-ish and off-putting, though, and I know there has already been all sorts of drama. LL isn't going to touch any of that. They are going to stay very far away from any sort of power-grabs and cliques. 

When all is said and done, Bellisseria is going to be huge. We've already seen the power dynamics in play when it comes to the larger groups. I think when Bellisseria is finished, it's going to thrive or die not as one large community, but as smaller groups of residents with similar interests and ideas come together to use the areas provided. 

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I think the point is for this place just to be Linden Homes, not to make other places in SL obsolete. Little hangout areas are put in, many are a waste of space imo, but people ask for them just because. A resident may open a place, it can be busy with many things for a couple of weeks, and then it flatlines as people get bored and move on to the next thing.

Community is what you make it,  not what LL throws down for you, but I feel like people read way too far in to what Bellisseria is suppose to be sometimes.

Let's see, questions..

1. I don't think this is necessarily the goal. We have seen many community oriented things pop up, and have seen many die. I feel people want something, but then they only care for a month at most and move on to the next new and shiny thing.

2. No. We have plenty of those. More than enough, unused. The fact is the active community that cares is much smaller in Bellisseria than people think. Many just want a house they can make pretty or oogle at other pretty houses.

3. I can see a car wash being used.. maybe. Some people do drive here, but the lag can make it hard. We've had bars, post offices, newspapers, community centers already. Resident made of course, but it still serves the purpose. Space is essentially money when it comes to regions.

4. As Sylvia said, the Moles and Lindens are actually pretty prevalent. Sometimes you can find them working, and often times they will show up to events.

5. They already do take our suggestions in to account. The Moles and Lindens pop up in the Citizens chat, and many people make suggestions there or here on the forums.

6. I could see this helping them with their bottom line. Profit. But at the expense of alienating other places in SL.

 

Bellisseria is fine as it is now in my opinion. Community spaces made from houses can be such, and then when they slow down people can actually live in them rather than a building that sits empty somewhere. It's up to us to make it feel like a community, not the Lindens or Moles.

 

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There's an advantage to having multiple pickle bars, because if two people wanted a little event at the same time, they could simply use another one. What I would like is for each pickle to have a different name. They could all be "The Something Pickle", but it'd make each one stand out a bit. They also don't all have the free pickle jar, which is sad.

That said, being used for events is only one side of those items. The thing they do most of the time is make the area look nice. They're places for people to find when they wander about. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Personally, I'm not looking to join a group with a leader or sign up for responsibilities or anything like that. I wander around, I chat to people, I go to parties sometimes, and I might get a house if they put in a theme I like. I take part in community events in other places in Second Life, so I'm not looking for an exclusive community with no contact on the outside. I'm looking for something a lot more casual than I think you want.

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13 minutes ago, Polenth Yue said:

There's an advantage to having multiple pickle bars, because if two people wanted a little event at the same time, they could simply use another one. What I would like is for each pickle to have a different name. They could all be "The Something Pickle", but it'd make each one stand out a bit. They also don't all have the free pickle jar, which is sad.

Once upon a time we had a thread full of fun suggestions for alternate Squishy Pickle names so we could avoid the confusion of having plethora of pickles but it was sadly ignored. We all wanted a Filthy Mushroom but I guess it wasn't to be... 

I'm looking at you, @Patch Linden... but not in the creepy, peeking-through-your-windows kinda way.

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I think

59 minutes ago, AboveAlchemy said:

...I've noticed, even tho there are some public spots such as the pickle place, some parks, lodge, fairgrounds, even a dog park, and to be fair ofc I know the entire project isn't done yet, but I couldn't help to notice the old yet familiar absence of social spots that are actually advertised or encouraged to be used by LL, these places of which I mentioned above, because of the lack of events and circumstances to facilitate the using of these locations, they all became deserted.

I think LL have done a great job in providing really nice hang out areas which I'm sure they would want us to use. Residents asked for Bellisseria Fairgrounds to be open to users for holding events, which they did. If places are deserted I don't think all the blame can be laid at LL's feet. It's up to residents to create events and get togethers. We have seen this happening for example at the Pickle shacks where there have been a number of improptu parties. I think one has to remember also there are different reasons why areas may be deserted - not everyone logs into SL all the time, or is on a the same time as you might be, and many other reasons I'm sure. My personal opinion is that LL probably feel they are providing the 'world' and it's up to us how we use it. I think the new Bellisseria continent has led to a renewed sense of community for some, that may be because it's new and shiny still. But some residents are trying to maintain that community , through having Bellisseria Events groups etc. It's really up to the residents to help that thrive....I'm not saying that perhaps there isn't more LL could do, but I don't think there is that much more, and should they even?

1 hour ago, AboveAlchemy said:

We have this beautiful new continent, but often it is left to the citizens to sort it out, sounds wonderful on paper,  ofc it does, but reality is, citizens are the most limited in this scenario, we can't built, we can't change streams, we can't rez things, makes extremely hard to give a sense of "something different", what do I mean by that? a wonderful Bar/Pub/Bakery per example built inside a Linden Home, it doesn't matter how beautiful the build is, how clever, bottom line is still a Linden Home decorated as something else

The premium Linden home regions are not meant to be like the mainland where you can rezz and build whatever you want. They are designed to remain as a certain theme. There is always the option to purchase mainland instead of having a Linden Home if you really need something very different.  I do think there could be just a little more flexibility in some ways in the linden home areas, but I understand the reasoning for the convenant they have. In addition, they seem to always have been considered by LL as 'starter homes' - a perk for premium members which they will probably grow out of, and seek more flexibility by buying their own land eventually (although I think the great new homes on Beliisseria may well reduce the possibility for many in doing that now, because the areas are so lovely).

1 hour ago, AboveAlchemy said:

Why don't we have places built with the solo purpose for ppl to go hang out? socialize, RP, talk, meet, hook up whatever.
Why Bellisseria with this massive amount of sims,  would allow anyone feel they need to leave the continent to meet new ppl? there's more than enough ppl living here, why LL allows this? 
I think letting the community search for basic social encounters outside Bellisseria is a massive mistake and works against the whole point of "community".

There are so many lovely spots to hang out on Bellisseria, I'm not sure what type of places you are thinking of (clubs/bars?). There are the swimming pool areas, pickle shacks, lots of little parks etc. I think if LL were to restrict residents from leaving Belli to socialise elsewhere there would be an uproar. People need the freedom to go explore and mingle where they want, and that is in my opinion the delight of SL - being able to go to other builds, events, places etc. and meet new people if you want to. Belli isn't designed to be the only place to be for meeting people, I very much doubt LL are trying to achieve that. Just like in RL you wouldn't want to be stripped of the ability to go to other places in the world...

I think I understand what you are trying to say, that there should be more in place to help community thrive, but at the end of the day I do believe it's up to the residents to create that community, and as mentioned already you have to examine when and why people come into SL. Perhaps there could be more tools or something, ( I don't know what), to help that...maybe...  Perhaps someone else will come up with some ideas:)

1 hour ago, AboveAlchemy said:

it's only so many times one will move homes and decorate and redecorate over and over and over, soon that will get old, and the membership won't be renewed, then what? we're left with the old Linden home estates, the infamous " populated desert ".

I do think that over time areas will seem deserted like they did in the first gen home regions, because the novelty of the new homes will wear off. It's already happening, if you look on the map...but the bottom line is if residents really don't want that then it's up to them to create more events and happenings to create more 'community' (don't look at me I don't have any ideas...:)  ) 

Just my initial thoughts:) I'll answer the questions in another post.

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1 hour ago, AboveAlchemy said:

So here are my questions to you;

1. Do you think Linden Labs are taking any steps to not only have a community visually but also stimulating community mentality in Bellisseria?

2. Do you wish Linden Labs should build places with the solo purpose of hang outs?

3. Would you like to have a bowling alley? a post office? a bar? a club ? a car wash? a restaurant? a sports park? a community center building? would you like to be part and "RP work" (for free ofc) at any of these spots perhaps make a schedule with citizens of Bellisseria doing rounds?

4. Do you think Linden Labs involvement (not Moles) in the aspect of the community such as attending events, getting to know ppl at proposed hanging out spots, could be a valuable tool to further bridge the space and disconnection between "us and them mentality"?

5. Would you like to have a monthly agenda based "Town Hall" meeting event where we all as citizens could help Linden Labs have a real time feedback on what has been working and what can be done to improve the community? 

6. Do you wish Bellisseria to have either it's own website or a place in the secondlife.com website for all things Bellisseria?

1. I don't think their goal is a community mentality. I think it's to provide a home as a perk of Premium Membership. What happens socially is left up to us.

2. I think they've created plenty of spaces all over Belli where you can hang out with others if you wish - Pickle shacks, swimming pools, park areas etc.

3. It would be a very cute addition to the neighbourhoods, but I wouldn't personally be more involved than visiting.

4. I personally don't feel there is a 'them and us' mentality and I'm curious as to the reasons someone might feel that way.

5. They do already have Town Hall meetings, but not monthly. There are inworld meetings with them for specific topics (can't remember what now but I've seen it advertised).

6. There was a Bellisseria newspaper online (on hiatus now) and somewhere else I think that had lots of links to Belli places. If people want a website someone needs to take the time and maintain it (for free, because it won't be  LL run). Inworld there are many Belliesseria groups, the most active I've seen are are Bellisseria Events, Bellisseria Community, Bellisseria Citizens which provide up to date happenings, social chat etc.

Edited by Evangeline Arcadia
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My two cents ... ok .. maybe only one cent ...

Bellisseria will be whatever the residents want it to be.  That has been show already by the people who have created pubs, community centers, brothels, and whatever else there already is.  As far as I go, I like to stay home, wader around and sight-see, boat and other stuff like that.  If people want to be social they will, if they want to gather they will, if they want to be a loner they will.  I don't think that LL has to try to build those things into Bellisseria.  

I think that the Lindens and the Moles are doing an amazing job and look forward to everything they do.

It also concerns me sometimes that people think they have more say in what should and will be done in Bellisseria.  We are only tenants using a perk of our premium membership and can always move on if there are things here we don't like.

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9 minutes ago, Sparkly Rainbow said:

My two cents ... ok .. maybe only one cent ...

Bellisseria will be whatever the residents want it to be.  That has been show already by the people who have created pubs, community centers, brothels, and whatever else there already is.  As far as I go, I like to stay home, wader around and sight-see, boat and other stuff like that.  If people want to be social they will, if they want to gather they will, if they want to be a loner they will.  I don't think that LL has to try to build those things into Bellisseria.  

I think that the Lindens and the Moles are doing an amazing job and look forward to everything they do.

It also concerns me sometimes that people think they have more say in what should and will be done in Bellisseria.  We are only tenants using a perk of our premium membership and can always move on if there are things here we don't like.

I don't have to make any effort to comment in this thread as what I've quoted mirrors pretty much how I feel about it, so ditto-this.

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55 minutes ago, Evangeline Arcadia said:

 

My personal opinion is that LL probably feel they are providing the 'world' and it's up to us how we use it.

This is pretty much the answer to it all  :)

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6 hours ago, AboveAlchemy said:

I couldn't help to notice the old yet familiar absence of social spots that are actually advertised or encouraged to be used by LL

I know you are talking about inworld spaces, but what strikes me is how much regular online activity / interaction is driven by Bellisseria. Here we are, gathering, chatting about Belli, look at flickr and see the tonnage of snapshots, interest groups.

The inworld chat groups seem to be rolling non stop.

Maybe stick around on the forum, join some inworld groups and you'll get a different feel for things?

 

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6 hours ago, AboveAlchemy said:

1. Do you think Linden Labs are taking any steps to not only have a community visually but also stimulating community mentality in Bellisseria?

2. Do you wish Linden Labs should build places with the solo purpose of hang outs?

3. Would you like to have a bowling alley? a post office? a bar? a club ? a car wash? a restaurant? a sports park? a community center building? would you like to be part and "RP work" (for free ofc) at any of these spots perhaps make a schedule with citizens of Bellisseria doing rounds?

4. Do you think Linden Labs involvement (not Moles) in the aspect of the community such as attending events, getting to know ppl at proposed hanging out spots, could be a valuable tool to further bridge the space and disconnection between "us and them mentality"?

5. Would you like to have a monthly agenda based "Town Hall" meeting event where we all as citizens could help Linden Labs have a real time feedback on what has been working and what can be done to improve the community?

6. Do you wish Bellisseria to have either it's own website or a place in the secondlife.com website for all things Bellisseria?


1. To a degree. I think they have given us the tools to create community. It is up to the community members what they do with those tools. I don't think anyone would want a forced feel of community. Just as in the real world, you're going to have varying personalities whose sociability will differ greatly. They have provided us with neighborhoods, parks, public pools, roads we use, paths we use, water ways we use, etc. It is up to the individual what they do with those things.

2. They've already done that.

3. Those things sound very appealing, but I don't think it should be the focal point at this time. I wouldn't wish to be part of a role play, but if others would greatly enjoy that it should be an option for them. More residential regions are needed because Bellisseria is such a popular place to live.

4. I've personally not attended any of the many social functions in Bellisseria yet because of anxiety and shyness, but there are so many topics where photos have been shared where both Lindens and Moles are mingling with residents. There isn't any us and them mentality that I can see. There isn't a disconnection and they have already integrated themselves into the community.

5. I don't feel they need to be monthly no. What they have in place already serves its purpose.

6. I think these forums do that already. There are also inworld groups that do that as well to keep people up to date on events and happenings.

Each of us has our own definition of what community is and what we wish to gain from it personally. I'm a very shy and quiet person for the most part, yet I'm pretty active around Bellisseria with my family. I'm often out horse back riding, bike riding, walking around or swimming or sailing the water ways. I sit at parks and public pools around my neighborhood or out in my back garden. I can look at the map and there are a lot of people around me always. I never feel alone. I have respectful neighbors. I've not encountered anyone rude in my wanderings. The sense of community is already there. It may never be as active as one may wish, but it is there. I don't see that changing. I think over time it will shape itself. Through the summer there was a massive amount of events. This Autumn there have been hunts and even a contest for the best yard decorations of the season. Community is happening all around us already. It is up to us to reach out and take part. The tools are there.

 

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8 hours ago, AboveAlchemy said:

So here are my questions to you;

1. Do you think Linden Labs are taking any steps to not only have a community visually but also stimulating community mentality in Bellisseria?

2. Do you wish Linden Labs should build places with the solo purpose of hang outs?

3. Would you like to have a bowling alley? a post office? a bar? a club ? a car wash? a restaurant? a sports park? a community center building? would you like to be part and "RP work" (for free ofc) at any of these spots perhaps make a schedule with citizens of Bellisseria doing rounds?

4. Do you think Linden Labs involvement (not Moles) in the aspect of the community such as attending events, getting to know ppl at proposed hanging out spots, could be a valuable tool to further bridge the space and disconnection between "us and them mentality"?

5. Would you like to have a monthly agenda based "Town Hall" meeting event where we all as citizens could help Linden Labs have a real time feedback on what has been working and what can be done to improve the community? 

6. Do you wish Bellisseria to have either it's own website or a place in the secondlife.com website for all things Bellisseria?

1)  They already have done, and are still doing (by building), as much as they can or need to do.  In RL, it is up to my neighbors and myself to make a community.   The city officials can give us locations, but they can't actually do anything about our "community mentality" - that is totally up to the residents.

2)  You need to explore more.  There are so many freakin places in Bellisseria that are just for hanging out with folks, not even counting all the Squishy Pickle bars.

3) No more than what they have already been building - Squishy Pickle bars, large parks (people parks and animal parks), swimming pools.  We do not need any bars/clubs that are like other bars/clubs in SL.  As to everything else you listed, that is just more places for RP and we don't need LL dedicating more resources to that.  Folks have created coffee shops, pubs, and community centers in their own homes and that is good enough.   

4) Lindens (in addition to Moles) have attended every event held at the Fairgrounds and they have attended many of the parties held at the Squishy Pickle.  There were even a few impromptu parties at some swimming pools that a few Lindens attended.  The Lindens and Moles both have been more involved in Bellisseria Community events than I've ever seen anywhere except Bay City.

5) Definitely NO. We've already had issues in Bellisseria with cliques and drama. Any sort of Town Hall would likely just make it worse.  We give LL plenty of feedback here in the forums -- and we know that they listen and actually implement some of our ideas.  There are truly lots of suggestions that are not feasible and many folks just don't understand, despite plenty of explanations.  

6) I honestly cannot see any reason for that other than to foster some sort of us/them or elitism attitudes.  There are community sponsored Bellisseria websites and that is good enough.

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EDIT: this reply is a bit 'stream of conscious' and was written while I was reading the OP, so there's not really a conclusion... just some jumbled thoughts. :P

 

I agree that too much repetition is unwise for community.

Need to funnel people into places and make them feel like "this is where I am supposed to go when I want to hang out in this way".

Good that there is only one lodge house.

Bad that there are multiple Pickles

OK that there are 2 airports because they are far apart and not hangout spots.

Good that there are boatlaunches all over the place.

Need for more vehicle launches.

 

- Pickle could be saved with... a radio that only plays one genre of music, but is a different genre at each Pickle. Some space for dancing. but NO dance ball and no ability to DJ or it competes with clubs. If you wanna dance, bring your own dances.

- One Pickle should expressly be the opposite of the others on voice settings. If most allow voice, EXACTLY one should not. If most do not allow voice, EXACTLY one should - this causes the exception to be a funnel for that interest.

EDIT: Honestly I don't care if Pickle competes with Clubs. Inworld SL clubs have never been a good business model anyway... kinda feel like that whole thing should be 'put out of it's misery'... SL is best when it's an experiment in community, worst when it's an experiment in capitalism. Clubs are an attempt at community, but in a model that requires poor choices to fund them...

 

Lodge: put up a Calendar, first come first serve premium accounts can put something on the calendar that is one hour long, up to twice a month. For that hour the name that listed the event has eject powers in the lodge. Leave voice on - a non voiced event can just do things in text. Moles and Lindens would have the ability to put themselves up there unlimited (as they obviously already do... but announced so it's part of the 'culture' that no one gets upset if a Linden or Mole takes their spot), but NO expectation of doing so... so people don't get upset if the 'Hour with Patch' they want doesn't happen... (ie: not pre-planned office hours, but if a Linden is in the mood, the lodge would be a great place for them to drop in and say "come at me bro").

 

Bowling, restaurants, etc... Linden Lab has built 'gaming sims' and 'tourist' sims' before - these aren't really community spots. And tourist sims... are often neglected. When was the last time you went to "Pyri Peaks"? It's actually pretty cool... but not a community thing. More of a 'hey this is cool, let me post about finding a multi-sim sized mole build' and then not come back for 5 years...

- Venues like this are best handled by other residents building them. RP sims, clubs, etc... not the place the Lindens should compete in. Either they are neglected places or they are highly active and take a lot of manpower to manage human drama...

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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Many things already said. I admit to reading over the thread without paying 100% attention.

There are many hangout places. Yet, I almost never see them in use. People build small pools in their backyard instead of using a large community pool.

Lots of community benches, picnic tables, parks. When I see someone using them, is one single avatar exploring, sitting some minutes, then leaving. When 10-20 people flock to a region they think are about to be released, even then, few people are sitting in a beach chair or on a bench. They are standing.

I still want the places, because they break up the monotomy with only private homes? They look pretty. A bench under an arbor with flowers. Plus, residents think they might use them once in the future, so just in case...

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On 10/16/2019 at 9:44 AM, AboveAlchemy said:

Obviously we all are entitled to have opinions, I would simply ask if you wish to share yours here, keep it to the topic, try not to make any personal attacks, thread is not intended to divide, but rather collect common ground ideas for the greater good of this new chapter called Bellisseria.

I think in the past Linden Home setup, LL learned a lot of lessons from it, I don't think it was a failed exercise, but I do think lots of opportunities of engagement we're lost, or not explored at all. 
Many times when I joined SL back in 2012, even tho I was surrounded by houses I felt like I never really met anyone, there was never a place where ppl from the surroundings would gather or be motivated to gather and create new relationships, apart from the atrocity of the Safe Hubs (Pandora box on it's own)

Very often I drive, walk, horse ride, boat around Bellisseria, often try to stop by and say hello to random ppl that I come across in my adventures, perhaps we have talked before, the majority of the time ofc I try to reach out without crossing their properly line as some are very sensitive about that topic, regardless, after many many hours of exploring Bellisseria, I've noticed, even tho there are some public spots such as the pickle place, some parks, lodge, fairgrounds, even a dog park, and to be fair ofc I know the entire project isn't done yet, but I couldn't help to notice the old yet familiar absence of social spots that are actually advertised or encouraged to be used by LL, these places of which I mentioned above, because of the lack of events and circumstances to facilitate the using of these locations, they all became deserted.


The pickle place, it's super cute, yet do we really need 5 or more of them? no, we don't, I think if one was actually used, actually encouraged to be used, certainly one would've been enough. I spoke with a Linden person while watching Moles working, and I brought this up with him.
We have this beautiful new continent, but often it is left to the citizens to sort it out, sounds wonderful on paper,  ofc it does, but reality is, citizens are the most limited in this scenario, we can't built, we can't change streams, we can't rez things, makes extremely hard to give a sense of "something different", what do I mean by that? a wonderful Bar/Pub/Bakery per example built inside a Linden Home, it doesn't matter how beautiful the build is, how clever, bottom line is still a Linden Home decorated as something else.

Why don't we have places built with the solo purpose for ppl to go hang out? socialize, RP, talk, meet, hook up whatever.
Why Bellisseria with this massive amount of sims,  would allow anyone feel they need to leave the continent to meet new ppl? there's more than enough ppl living here, why LL allows this? 
I think letting the community search for basic social encounters outside Bellisseria is a massive mistake and works against the whole point of "community".

Owning a spot  in Bellisseria and all the fun features that comes with the ownership of a spot, sure is value for the price we pay for the premium membership, but as a long term engagement, it's only so many times one will move homes and decorate and redecorate over and over and over, soon that will get old, and the membership won't be renewed, then what? we're left with the old Linden home estates, the infamous " populated desert ".

So here are my questions to you;

1. Do you think Linden Labs are taking any steps to not only have a community visually but also stimulating community mentality in Bellisseria?

2. Do you wish Linden Labs should build places with the solo purpose of hang outs?

3. Would you like to have a bowling alley? a post office? a bar? a club ? a car wash? a restaurant? a sports park? a community center building? would you like to be part and "RP work" (for free ofc) at any of these spots perhaps make a schedule with citizens of Bellisseria doing rounds?

4. Do you think Linden Labs involvement (not Moles) in the aspect of the community such as attending events, getting to know ppl at proposed hanging out spots, could be a valuable tool to further bridge the space and disconnection between "us and them mentality"?

5. Would you like to have a monthly agenda based "Town Hall" meeting event where we all as citizens could help Linden Labs have a real time feedback on what has been working and what can be done to improve the community? 

6. Do you wish Bellisseria to have either it's own website or a place in the secondlife.com website for all things Bellisseria?

 

I think this new Linden Labs team do have the right heart, I don't think Bellisseria is a marketing only exercise to grab more memberships, but I also think, they as much as we do, need leadership and help understanding that community is not a gathering of houses and sims, community is the bond we have with each other.

Hope to read your thoughts here, and thanks for sharing it.

Rachel

 

 

 

These are all very well formulated thoughts and questions. I've revisited them over the years. Mostly, I'm a solitary SL player -- which, BTW, I see others are, and I even have friends who are the same way, who prefer to just fly around and explore on their own, and occasionally chat, or drop in or give a gift. And I like it that way. High casual, but far less drama. I chat with my customers, to some extent, but basically I leave them alone as I'm sure they'd prefer that.

Every once in a blue moon, I get the wish to go to some bar or club or event or something to see what's up, what are people saying, wearing, etc. So yesterday I happened to get Coco's scary rabbit add-ons which are must-have cool SL things I had seen other people with, and not realized at first it was something I could get, too. So I wanted to show them off! A lot of SL is show-and-tell.

First, I went to the much-ballyhooed Bellissaria, thinking, "this is the cool place now where real cool kids go who are humans, not bots!" I went to a green dot pile-up, but I could only see a guy on a boat, and I guess the rest were in the sky, so I didn't want to intrude up there. BTW you have to look at the mini-map, as you may know, to see actual locations of green dots, as the world map is distorted and can be misleading.

A few other green dot piles were on no-access or in the sky. So next I went to what I call Legacy Mainland. I saw 45 green dots filling up the sim of Ufeus entirely. So I went to the adjacent sim to see, hey, what's this! It wasn't one of those crowded events like kustom9, it was a place with a name like Kiwi Sanctuary. But they must have "avatars can see me" unchecked, because I simply couldn't see anybody in the ground or sky, there was nothing on the events list, so I withdrew.

Next, the infohubs. These can be terrible, with the griefing and spamming wall-sitters, but not always. But usually, they just have bots, like this, some of whom are clearly NPCs on themed sims and others might be AFK or dumped from a re-setting sim but whatever, they aren't "there".

The few infohubs I tend to, where I own the land nearby or the old legacy resident-developed infohub I have, can have real newbies on it and I talk to them, but yesterday it was all bots.

I looked at a few more green-dot pile-ups, but one was in a gatcha re-sale store which had bots for "traffic," and another seemed all AFK or maybe Tiny Empires or something. None of the "events" on the list seemed compelling to me, and were thinly disguised ads for clubs. I had limited time for all this because I had to go to a job, so I gave up. And that's what happens. 

It takes some effort to find the events or groups that interest you and then begin to socialize. People do it all the time, it's possible. I suppose it takes time, or a low threshold of acceptability.

Now to answer your questions:

1. No, because I think the Lindens cannot make the society and there has to be civil society separate from the "government" or it isn't viable. I also think they do not have the time, talent, or treasure to do this, let alone the wish.

2. They already built a bunch of hangouts all over the place, the infohubs, the various Portals with their games (which I don't like, but some do), the premium places like the jungle, the mainland places built by Moles like that carnival game, or whatever. Tons of them. They can't justify more. So residents need to build them.

3. There was a bowling ally near my rentals for years, not sure it's still there, I would advertise is it my "Area Attraction" notecards, but I never saw a soul there. I  have restaurants in my land preserve that people actually go to, interact, pick up content, even leave tips. But I find that things like archery or bowling alleys don't attract people, they're hard to do. But who's to stop any resident from doing this?

4. In an authoritarian country such as we live in, where there are no free elections, no free press, and no justice for the simple reason that it's a company town owned by a corporation where we only rent, there is nothing except the "us" and "them" mentality that can exist, and the space cannot and should not be bridged. Residents should make their own societies to the extent they are able and willing.

5. History repeats itself! There used to be regular Town Halls run by the Lindens all the time, when the world was smaller. The sims got so crowded, that they had these retro looking radios they handed out known as "repeaters" that basically broadcast the townhall to other sims -- an interesting technology which they let lapse when they stopped the *inworld* Town Halls, as they got to be too hard to manage, griefed too much, and too time-and-resource consuming to be justified by busy Lindens. (They still occasionally have a chat show at Designing Worlds or something called a "town hall" but that's not the same genre.) Groups that I'm in have their own town halls, and that's how it should be done.

6. There is already Land Forums>Linden Homes and that's plenty.

48910033158_9597148f7d_c (1).jpg

Edited by Prokofy Neva

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On 10/16/2019 at 10:07 AM, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

Maybe you haven't been paying attention, but there have been and still are plenty of community events (currently, there is a Halloween decorating contest going on), and Lindens and Moles are almost always in attendance. I don't notice any "us and them" mentality at all. There are photos scattered throughout the threads here proving that they do walk among us. Regularly. 

You may have also missed the recent gift hunts provided by LL and the Moles. Read some of the other threads here to see just how much is going on. As for hang outs, the most recent one is the beautiful lodge just opened in Campwich Forest, but there are others, including a dog park in a new region yet to be released. Again, this is all documented in threads here in the forums.

I suggest you join the Bellisseria Citizens Group and/or the events group so you can get notices of what all is happening around you. 

That's interesting that Lindens and Moles "are almost always in attendance". I figure that can't last. I literally have gone for years on the Legacy Mainland never seeing a Linden, except for very rarely, if one TPs in to solve some complicated technical issue.

Seems to me it's Ma and Pa, sitting on the porch with their shotguns and jugs of moonshine, crying "Revenooers!" if a Linden trespasses...

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7 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

<snip>

I still want the places, because they break up the monotomy with only private homes? They look pretty. A bench under an arbor with flowers. Plus, residents think they might use them once in the future, so just in case...

This is a very good point, and actually something that Abnor (I think) mentioned in these forums months ago. These little community areas aren't specifically designed to be used - they are actually just another tool to make each region unique and avoid the cookie-cutter formula of the old LL homes. When you factor in residents in-world availability and time-zones, the reality is that there's probably more hang-out places than could  possibly be used,  but that's fine, as each of these places is just another little gem to stumble upon as you explore the continent :) 

Edited by Eowyn Southmoor
2am typos :P
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6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

That's interesting that Lindens and Moles "are almost always in attendance". I figure that can't last. I literally have gone for years on the Legacy Mainland never seeing a Linden, except for very rarely, if one TPs in to solve some complicated technical issue.

Some of them do still attend various Bay City events, so it is possible that they'll continue attending Bellisseria events for quite a while..... possible anyway.

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On 10/17/2019 at 12:49 PM, Eowyn Southmoor said:

This is a very good point, and actually something that Abnor (I think) mentioned in these forums months ago. These little community areas aren't specifically designed to be used - they are actually just another tool to make each region unique and avoid the cookie-cutter formula of the old LL homes. When you factor in residents in-world availability and time-zones, the reality is that there's probably more hang-out places than could  possibly be used,  but that's fine, as each of these places is just another little gem to stumble upon as you explore the continent :) 

Yes, I like these little gems. And I was wishing that these many Linden seas between BellisEria and the Jeogeot continent had something in them. I realize you don't want to get in the way of sailing. But maybe underwater, the way some seas do? Surprise freebies -- something!

UPDATED: So what I should have said here is between Belliseria and Sansara to the noth, the Old World continent with which the Lindens began. There are more void sims between Belli and Jeogeot than to Sansara. Directly north of Belliseria (on the map) is that funny square region, not sure if it has a name, perhaps "MarmelaGramelaDoesburg Land" lol, but this is the area with very nice beach and forest textures that the Lindens created immediately after the whole telehub debacle. After a lot of protest, they ended up buying back land barons' telehub land (which was made obsolete when p2p teleporting was put in) at a fixed rate of $6/m I believe it was, thus eating a lot of Ansheland or post-Ansheland originally sold for fantastic sums at auction. But the Lindens had the last laugh when they put out that lovely (for the times) sandy mainland that wasn't the toxic wasteland soil of the Moth Continent, or the New England rock and volcanos and snow of Sansara, but almost like a private island. A lot of the sims were named for famous artists or scientists. To keep her corner on the market, Anshe had to buy up all that "square continent" land and flip it. Eventually she was out of there. Judging from the fantastically high prices on the Monets as Matisses up there, somebody is hoping the Lindens will put in void sims between that square continent and Belli. Nothing is to say they will. 

PPS Just to put in a little more SL history perhaps of no interest, some of those "square continent" sims (there are actually two such square areas separated from the mainland, but still mainland) which are named for RL famous people like Picasso or even Sakharov (which I was pleased to see, but it disappeared for some reason and then became a stand-alone private island). But some are named for famous SL citizens of the era, such as "Marmela" "Gramela" "Doesburg" who was a land baron and a quirky content creator and I think is still around; Nick Rhodes, whom I beat out at the auction to buy Ravenglass; Versu Richelieu who was very creative in SL and RL; Obscuro Valkyrie who made this wonderfully-crafted workable prim grandfather clock which can still be found in the finest homes; Nimrod Yaffle who was among the first testers of Copybot; Schwanson Schlegel who was the first (or among the first) private island owners of SL who used to complain how badly they worked compared to Mainland (!); Flyingroc Chung, a scripter who made the Chung name famous before Anshe; Minoru Musashi, a very good builder and scripter who I commissioned to make the original modern Asian homes on stilts that were in the Moraine Cove and who made a number of Japanese store buildings used by merchants. Most of these people do not seem to be in SL anymore.

Edited by Prokofy Neva

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10 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Yes, I like these little gems. And I was wishing that these many Linden seas between BellisEria and the Jeogeot continent had something in them. I realize you don't want to get in the way of sailing. But maybe underwater, the way some seas do? Surprise freebies -- something!

That Linden Sea you refer to is only temporary, which is why they are just empty regions. The second continent (or Bellisseria extension) will be going in that area and filling the space between Belli and Jeogeot. If you take a look on the map at the bottom of the SSP continent, you'll see the new bare regions already placed.

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On 10/16/2019 at 9:44 AM, AboveAlchemy said:

Obviously we all are entitled to have opinions, I would simply ask if you wish to share yours here, keep it to the topic, try not to make any personal attacks, thread is not intended to divide, but rather collect common ground ideas for the greater good of this new chapter called Bellisseria.

I think in the past Linden Home setup, LL learned a lot of lessons from it, I don't think it was a failed exercise, but I do think lots of opportunities of engagement we're lost, or not explored at all. 
Many times when I joined SL back in 2012, even tho I was surrounded by houses I felt like I never really met anyone, there was never a place where ppl from the surroundings would gather or be motivated to gather and create new relationships, apart from the atrocity of the Safe Hubs (Pandora box on it's own)

Very often I drive, walk, horse ride, boat around Bellisseria, often try to stop by and say hello to random ppl that I come across in my adventures, perhaps we have talked before, the majority of the time ofc I try to reach out without crossing their properly line as some are very sensitive about that topic, regardless, after many many hours of exploring Bellisseria, I've noticed, even tho there are some public spots such as the pickle place, some parks, lodge, fairgrounds, even a dog park, and to be fair ofc I know the entire project isn't done yet, but I couldn't help to notice the old yet familiar absence of social spots that are actually advertised or encouraged to be used by LL, these places of which I mentioned above, because of the lack of events and circumstances to facilitate the using of these locations, they all became deserted.


The pickle place, it's super cute, yet do we really need 5 or more of them? no, we don't, I think if one was actually used, actually encouraged to be used, certainly one would've been enough. I spoke with a Linden person while watching Moles working, and I brought this up with him.
We have this beautiful new continent, but often it is left to the citizens to sort it out, sounds wonderful on paper,  ofc it does, but reality is, citizens are the most limited in this scenario, we can't built, we can't change streams, we can't rez things, makes extremely hard to give a sense of "something different", what do I mean by that? a wonderful Bar/Pub/Bakery per example built inside a Linden Home, it doesn't matter how beautiful the build is, how clever, bottom line is still a Linden Home decorated as something else.

Why don't we have places built with the solo purpose for ppl to go hang out? socialize, RP, talk, meet, hook up whatever.
Why Bellisseria with this massive amount of sims,  would allow anyone feel they need to leave the continent to meet new ppl? there's more than enough ppl living here, why LL allows this? 
I think letting the community search for basic social encounters outside Bellisseria is a massive mistake and works against the whole point of "community".

Owning a spot  in Bellisseria and all the fun features that comes with the ownership of a spot, sure is value for the price we pay for the premium membership, but as a long term engagement, it's only so many times one will move homes and decorate and redecorate over and over and over, soon that will get old, and the membership won't be renewed, then what? we're left with the old Linden home estates, the infamous " populated desert ".

So here are my questions to you;

1. Do you think Linden Labs are taking any steps to not only have a community visually but also stimulating community mentality in Bellisseria?

2. Do you wish Linden Labs should build places with the solo purpose of hang outs?

3. Would you like to have a bowling alley? a post office? a bar? a club ? a car wash? a restaurant? a sports park? a community center building? would you like to be part and "RP work" (for free ofc) at any of these spots perhaps make a schedule with citizens of Bellisseria doing rounds?

4. Do you think Linden Labs involvement (not Moles) in the aspect of the community such as attending events, getting to know ppl at proposed hanging out spots, could be a valuable tool to further bridge the space and disconnection between "us and them mentality"?

5. Would you like to have a monthly agenda based "Town Hall" meeting event where we all as citizens could help Linden Labs have a real time feedback on what has been working and what can be done to improve the community? 

6. Do you wish Bellisseria to have either it's own website or a place in the secondlife.com website for all things Bellisseria?

 

I think this new Linden Labs team do have the right heart, I don't think Bellisseria is a marketing only exercise to grab more memberships, but I also think, they as much as we do, need leadership and help understanding that community is not a gathering of houses and sims, community is the bond we have with each other.

Hope to read your thoughts here, and thanks for sharing it.

Rachel

 

 

 

There's been some great answers given to this post.  I'm in agreement that Bellisseria is a great improvement to the older Linden homes and what is available now to new premium residents.  Bellisseria has a little something for everyone, for we're all diverse and have different wants and needs, expectations.  For those that want a nicely constructed home and region to reside in, they have that. For those that are more reserved and quiet, preferring to keep more their own company or those of a few close friends, they can also find that here in Bellisseria, without feeling the evasion of others encroaching into their space.

And for those that love to go out and explore, find new things of interest, Bellisseria has an abundance of that as well.  There is also a new resurgence of community that has come to life in Bellisseria as well.  Its not up to Linden Labs, the Lindens or the moles to make this happen, but set into the hands of the residents taking up dwellings on the continent and deciding what they wish to contribute to the community as a whole.  Some do that here on the forums, with their thoughts, opinions, advice and share this with the rest of us. Others pay their contributions in world, providing a lovely decorated home and opening it up to others who might wish to stop by and take a little tour, via the parade of homes.  And still others set up their parcels to be open to the public at all times to enjoy.

One of the best assets to Bellisseria is the groups that have sprung up all over the place, offering a little something to everyone. The best groups to join to keep in contact, are the Bellisseria Citizens group and the Bellisseria Events group.  From there you can discover with a little search, the many other groups of interest. Boating-sailing, horse back riding, biking, or perhaps mermaids is a thing you'd enjoy exploring with others?    Most of these groups are run by considerate, caring people that only wish to provide an enjoyable experience to be shared with others.

Any place you that you spend enough time within Second Life, you'll run across drama. The best advice, is to leave it alone and move along.  Always remain polite and considerate.

If you're trying to find locations, we have that in the Bellisseria Citizens group, updated every few weeks by a gentleman named Jon, of the latest places he's discovered that we can all visit and enjoy.  And if its events you wish to explore and be entertained at, we have the fairgrounds and those continue to be booked on the calendars. Some weeks, months are more active that others, but the calendars are continuing to get bookings.  

There is also the smaller public events, put on by the residents of Bellisseria. Some are scheduled weekly at the homes of Bellisserians and others are impromptu and pop up at random times. These are usually announced in the Events group and sometimes a post is dropped into the Citizens chat as well.

For myself and my husband, Cian, we have the Bellis Blues Cafe in Bellisseria.  Its a little venue that is open to all to come by and enjoy and we hold weekly events there, 2-3 times a week, hosted by Bellisseria Djs.  We're going on 4 months now and plan to continue to offer this to the community.  Our own experience has been wonderful and we enjoy giving something back to the community for all to enjoy.

In conclusion, there is always room for improvement.  I'd love seeing more public places built by the Lindens and moles as time marches on, that the community can enjoy.  Bellisseria, as with any place in Second Life, is what we each decide to make of it.  We can either work together to help it flourish, or ignore it and let it fade to something of the past.  For myself and Cian, as  long as we're able, we'll continue to try to help support a community feeling and eagerly await the next new creation that's around the corner, provided by Patch Linden and his crew of Lindens and moles.

giphy.gif

Edited by PrudenceAnton
fixing typos
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9 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

That Linden Sea you refer to is only temporary, which is why they are just empty regions. The second continent (or Bellisseria extension) will be going in that area and filling the space between Belli and Jeogeot. If you take a look on the map at the bottom of the SSP continent, you'll see the new bare regions already placed.

I'm not so sure about that. What I'm talking about is Linden "Dead Sea" between Snafu and Jacinto. And I don't think the Lindens will  necessarily have a reason to fill that area in, unless to requite their friends who have hugely high-priced land for sale there precisely because of the Bellisseria factor. Maybe they know something I don't, but I don't see that Bellisseria "has" to grow in that direction. And it isn't, in fact.

I don't see any SSPs at the top of the map (north on the map, anyway), by Venber, Ketran, Leera etc. The Lindens might be "done" here just as they were "done" in Alston 15 years ago, so sadly, there's no void sim to sail on next to it.

If anything, they're building out in the south, and might fill in the space "space between Belli and Jeogeot" as you say. As you can see, they already made a very long line down from Baxby Gulf and Kuga to  There are SSPs there, and perhaps they might fill in more, though will it be all the way to Jeogeot? We don't know. They may have no felt need to do this. After all those are sims which, like abandoned land, have nobody paying tier on them, they're just "nice to have.

So studying this map, and based on past Linden practice, I decided to move the Mainland Appreciation Society with its "Sailing to Belliseria" aspiration from Snafu, which really has no sailing to speak up and requires enormous portage through Dead Sea and ban lines to the SLCG rez area -- to the sim of Jingi. You can indeed sail to Bellisseria from Jingi without portage -- I did it yesterday. To be sure, it's a little rocky and complicated to see where you are going on all those void sims, and you have to avoid getting sucked into the bluff at Toedamgol, above where the Lindens have Pyri Peaks, which is interesting. Once you weave your way out of the ban lines in Jingi to Haengbok (to take a different path), and can get up to Leeward, then in theory it's smooth sailing to Belli; it's just a question of stamina. You can dock then at Kuga by the lighthouse where there's a rez zone.

I'm not a sailor; I'm a boater. I have a really beat up home-made-looking raft called a Bama Boat made by Alisha Matova who is no longer in SL. I'm not likely to get anything better; when I put this baby into 3rd gear, it really races pretty well although it can be hard to steer.

PS So I should have specified I meant between Sansara and Belli -- see my update to my original comment above.

Edited by Prokofy Neva

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8 hours ago, PrudenceAnton said:

Where is this picture from.  I bet it is a game I can't play. SO CUTE!!!!!

giphy.gif

 

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