FIRESTORM VR FUNCTIONALITY

[CrowleyCorp]

You clicked this for one reason, you are interested in VR functionality for Second Life just like me.  Linden Lab has already announced over a year ago that despite having the Oculus Rift parked on their homepage for many years, they would not be implementing VR functions into their viewer.  This means it is up to 3rd party viewer developers to pick up the torch and make progress into the future, Firestorm.

Before you say "it can't be done" I will point out that it HAS been done by not one but at least two 3rd party viewers already, but Control-Alt Studio is no longer updated and the other will likely not be a permanent option either.  I know the official excuse, "the frame rate is not high enough in Second Life for VR" but it's not valid.  Anybody with a good enough computer to handle VR to begin with means it is good enough to run SL in decent frames, and even if it didn't, low frames does not stop VR from functioning it would merely be a bit choppy.  (if we didn't do things because they were choppy then most of us wouldn't even play Second Life would we)

We all have known for some time that Second Life is teetering on the edge of irrelevancy and it appears to me at least that not much is being done to combat this.  Firestorm, where are you?

I remember a day when Firestorm was at the leading edge of developing new and cool features that were not included in the basic LL viewer package.  This is precisely how Firestorm got to be as popular as it is today, but that cutting edge development seemed to slow down or even stop when Firestorm became ordained as the 'Official' 3rd party viewer with LL oversight.  Granted there may be less cool little tweaks here and there to add but I find it hard to see Firestorm as more than the official viewer with a different skin these days.

I know there will likely be a legion of loyal Firestorm users wanting to fill my ears with all the 'differences' between Firestorm and the Official and I want those people to understand I do love and use the Firestorm viewer, but my point is this.  It has already been proven by multiple 3rd party viewers that VR capability for Second Life is not only possible but already working fairly well, and Firestorm should be that cutting edge innovator once again and push the viewer into the 21st century.

I am now braced and ready for your attacks.........lol

[Lyssa Greymoon]

Not an attack, but I think the frame rate issue is valid. I'm running a Xeon workstation with a GTX 970, and still get frame rates dropping into the single digits at times. The places you're most likely to want it are also most likely to tank your frame rate.

[CrowleyCorp]

7 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

I'm running a Xeon workstation with a GTX 970, and still get frame rates dropping into the single digits at times.

Yet you still play Second Life 😃

Nobody would expect SLVR to be perfect, SL itself is far from perfect but we all still love it.  Even if VR could only be used in a skybox alone far far away, people would still love being able to use it.  'VR Chat' is extremely popular yet it is complete junk when compared to Second Life.

Edited October 15, 2019 by CrowleyCorp

[Bree Giffen]

I'm with you @CrowleyCorp. Maybe if Firestorm had VR mode that did everything to increase framerates like dropping detail level, removing shadows, lower draw distance and such. The lighter graphics mode could even segue into a mobile viewer.

[CrowleyCorp]

Just now, Bree Giffen said:

I'm with you @CrowleyCorp. Maybe if Firestorm had VR mode that did everything to increase framerates like dropping detail level, removing shadows, lower draw distance and such. The lighter graphics mode could even segue into a mobile viewer.

Hey, it worked for Lumiya smartphone app, and even they tried VR functionality though I never tried it.

[Kia Kiyori]

VR just doesn't blow my skirt up.

Personally speaking, I can't imagine a less enjoyable way to be in SL - nausea and puking while wearing a ten tonne monstrosity on my head... but y'know, diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks and all that .

In any event, I like my FS just as it is tyvm - so please don't give Whirly any ideas!

[CrowleyCorp]

5 minutes ago, AnyaJurelle said:

I like my FS just as it is tyvm

Any addition of VR functionality would not impact the regular usage of firestorm at all.  If folks don't like VR they don't need to enable it.  It would be like one of the million options that the average user is unaware of, just in a more prominent tab under preferences lol.

Edited October 15, 2019 by CrowleyCorp

[Solar Legion]

Want VR in Second Life that badly? Go build your own client/viewer then.

While you're doing so, do pay very close attention and perhaps you'll see why it was abandoned.

"Attacks" - seriously? How about truth/reality?

[CrowleyCorp]

5 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

perhaps you'll see why it was abandoned.

If everybody gave up at the first sign of things not going right then everybody would log out of Second Life and never go back.  'Quitters' never seem to innovate much.

Edited October 15, 2019 by CrowleyCorp

[Alwin Alcott]

2 minutes ago, CrowleyCorp said:

Any addition of VR functionality would not impact the regular usage of firestorm at all.

for me there's no need at all to spend many hours work to add a nearly non used feature on the already heavy FS code.
It's a niche market, not worth the money.

[Kia Kiyori]

3 minutes ago, CrowleyCorp said:

Any addition of VR functionality would not impact the regular usage of firestorm at all.  If folks don't like VR they don't need to enable it.  It would be like one of the million options that the average user is unaware of, just in a more prominent tab under preferences lol.

Ok thank you - that's good to know - but with the workload the FS team (which probably mostly consists of Whirly, Whirly and Whirly) already have, wouldn't that be pushing the limits of human endurance a wee bit?

If FS is open source, then surely someone else - if they're that keen - could build one just for VR groupies perhaps?

[CrowleyCorp]

1 minute ago, AnyaJurelle said:

Ok thank you - that's good to know - but with the workload the FS team (which probably mostly consists of Whirly, Whirly and Whirly) already have, wouldn't that be pushing the limits of human endurance a wee bit?

Perhaps they could fold one of the current SL VR developers from another 3rd party viewer into their ranks.

[Luna Bliss]

Preferences >>>> Instant Bulimia

[Kia Kiyori]

Just now, CrowleyCorp said:

Perhaps they could fold one of the current SL VR developers from another 3rd party viewer into their ranks.

Or someone with the nous could run with existing code and angle it towards VR functionality.

[Luna Bliss]

But seriously, since I do love VR so much, is there a way to access SL in VR mode anymore?   Seems I heard of a viewer awhile back..

[CrowleyCorp]

4 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

But seriously, since I do love VR so much, is there a way to access SL in VR mode anymore?   Seems I heard of a viewer awhile back..

There is a viewer someone is dabbling with currently, I will message you inworld.

[Luna Bliss]

Just now, CrowleyCorp said:

There is a viewer someone is dabbling with currently, I will message you inworld.

Thanks!

Though I love creating in SL and appreciate it for what it is, the SL world seems a little flat after experiencing VR.

[Tari Landar]

Choppy VR is not like choppy frame rates without VR. In this case one choppy, while absolutely annoying, can often be somewhat remedied, but even in the instances wherein it cannot, it is merely an annoyance. Choppy instances in VR can, and does, actually take a toll on one's literal health-both in the short and long term, it's a far, far worse idea than simply having low framerates in a virtual world (or even a game) without VR. The two are not comparable even remotely, though it might be difficult to understand the mechanics for some, the facts remain the facts. The whole "yet you still play sl" comments make me think you don't really understand the difference between the two, or perhaps don't realize there is a difference. Most likely that's because you're absolutely enthralled with the concept of VR. I totally get that, nd your enthusiasm, but you're missing, or ignoring, a lot of information.  It is this information which is the leading cause for WHY VR didn't, and is not going to, continue to work for sl, even with third party viewers. The idea wasn't canned because it wasn't highly adopted, it was canned because....it doesn't work like you think it does, and it causes actual problems that are not easily, if at all, remedied without making so many changes the initial product stops being the initial product. The changes necessary for functionality aren't things that are just going to magically happen out of thin air, they (when/if properly done) will take YEARS of testing, upgrades, reverting, updating, more testing, more reverting, changing of base open source code that's not going to change because LL doesn't want to put that effort in to do so(firestorm can only make so many changes without base functionalities changing too)....you get the point, lol. That doesn't even include what happens when more than a few beta testers start going at it and the impact that may have. A handful of people who can use VR isn't going to be enough for any third party developer to be all "oooh, these five people can use it, let's ignore the other five thousand"-which is what you're asking for. It might be nice, lol and I totally understand that part, because you (like lots of others) are really excited about something you enjoy (even if you keep putting down the very platform on which you want to use it..but I digress on tat part, lol) 

Ftr, my vision impairments make using VR in the same capacity as most people impossible, especially now, but I do have...(a number higher than 20  ) years worth of working with VR (and also AR and AI) in slightly less than orthodox manner(s), along with more orthodox manners-including the use and creation of tech for different applications. I really don't think the majority of people actually understand VR the way they think they do, let alone how to implement it and all of the...well, everything, related to it.  I'm not a diehard firestorm fan. I mean, I'm a fan, but, it's a viewer, it's not bacon. My words apply to all viewers, third party or otherwise. Plenty of people far more well versed in VR have come and gone before you, it might do you some good to read on why they left the project(s) where they did, and why it's not been more widely adopted. They didn't give up at the first sign of trouble, or first sign of things not working, and implementing VR isn't as simple as you might think. Others gave up on the idea because of how absolutely difficult it truly can be to work with from the backend.  Maybe some folks only know what they know from reading a lot, studying the subject even, but they're still very much coming at it from a user point of view-even if they do understand more of the technical side than some others.

If it was an easy thing to do, more would have done it by now. Far more intelligent people have been *attempting to do exactly what you're asking for more years than a lot of people have been in sl. You're acting like they tried it once, it didn't work, so they scrapped it. I assure you, that's not how things have gone over the years, lol. If those other third party viewer folks WANTED to join another team....they could have asked, they probably would've been accepted. Perhaps there is good reason why they haven't that you're not considering.  Not all ideas even with the bets intentions actually come to fruition, sometimes it's hard to understand why, especially when we want what we want and can't have it. 

 

[CrowleyCorp]

If Second Life had enabled VR functions at the release of the Oculus, then SL would have gotten all of the fame that VR Chat currently has.  Ask a teenager what Second Life is, you will get a blank stare.  Ask them what VR Chat is and you will likely hear how great it is.

[Tari Landar]

3 minutes ago, CrowleyCorp said:

If Second Life had enabled VR functions at the release of the Oculus, then SL would have gotten all of the fame that VR Chat currently has.  Ask a teenager what Second Life is, you will get a blank stare.  Ask them what VR Chat is and you will likely hear how great it is.

I have teenagers

You're wrong

I know more adults that know what VR chat is than teenagers, lmao. And even most adults don't know what secondlife is,. I sure as hell don't want MORE teenagers here. Teenagers shouldn't be in sl at all (and I have always maintained this). I used to teach them in sl...sl is not a place for minors, period (and I don't mean because of slex).

But, again, you're still coming at this from a USER point of view, and not someone that understands any of the technical side of VR. Ftr..people have been attempting to inject VR capabilities into sl since *before occulus came out.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Tari Landar

[CrowleyCorp]

Though it dampens my optimism I thank you for your reply Tari.  Especially the way in which you crafted it to avoid making me look like a noob. 😃  I suppose it will remain a wish and nothing more from what you say.

[Garnet Psaltery]

1 hour ago, CrowleyCorp said:

You clicked this for one reason, you are interested in VR functionality for Second Life just like me.

Well, no, I clicked it because I'm interested in Firestorm, and I wondered what was happening next.  I have no interest in Oculus Rift and its pals; I just forgot what VR Functionality was.  

Edited October 15, 2019 by Garnet Psaltery

[CrowleyCorp]

For those looking for VR functions, I found this:

http://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/atate/2019/09/27/firestorm-vr-6-2-4/

Not sure exactly what it is and I would be careful about trying anything.

Edited October 15, 2019 by CrowleyCorp

[Tari Landar]

I hope it didn't come across more snarky than I intended, lol. There really is a lot more to it than simply "not enough people will use it". The health problems, which are very real-and as VR take s a stronger hold we'll see more and more of them creep up over the next ten years or so, associated with VR are really difficult to overcome (it's why nearly all VR tech comes with warnings, I mean, aside from them being legally required, lol). I love seeing people passionate about it, even when I can't use it to the same capacity as most, because it's a fascinating topic, and fascinating tech really (all VR, Ar and AI is to me). Sl can be difficult to modify enough for a lot of things, not just VR. Part of that is simply due to its age, of course, I mean we are really far out from its first inception, lol. There are things that can be done which would make VR slightly more easy to implement, but then they present even more problems, lol.

It's honestly more work than it's worth for most developers, I would venture. Those developers would be better off using those skills to create something sl-like that is based around VR tech to begin with, versus trying to inject it 16+ years down the road to something thta has to be both forward and backward compatible with not only VR but also a multitude of different systems, different tech, different, well, everything, lol. Not that any company will ever be able to be compatible with all, but the goal is to be as compatible with as many components as possible. VR makes this really difficult on a good day.

I too absolutely love the tech, but for probably way different reasons than most. I just understand precisely why it doesn't work in sl the way we wish it would, and it probably never will. It's still good to have dreams and hold onto them tightly. It may never work quite the way you want it to in sl, but that doesn't mean something LIKE sl could never utilize it. 

[CrowleyCorp]

Now that my attempt to implement VR into Second Life has flopped I will move on to my next mission, a smart phone Cigarette Lighter app.  Think of the possibility, never needing to carry around a lighter.  My fathers iphone burst into flames once so I know it must be possible.

Edited October 15, 2019 by CrowleyCorp