Is there, like a "Mainland Lovers" of sorts SL group in -world?

[Vega Firelyte]

I agree @Therese Tammas, the mainland has greatly improved, compared to what it use to look like in the past.  I also like the exposure/attention that is starting to be directed more towards the mainlands.  Bellisseria was good for more than one reason, not just the kickass homes but the attention it seemed to bring to the different mainlands.  It feels like more people are considerate to their neighbours now, there is more care being taken with the land and it is looking better.  Yes, there is still areas that are problematic, but I do hope with time and more attention, we will see that changing as well.

[Prokofy Neva]

11 hours ago, Vega Firelyte said:

Hi Prokofy.  I just want to clarify a little on what you said regarding GTFO.  I agree, there is a number of hubs that do have warehouses but the owners are really quite amazing in putting them together, so I always have to give kudos to them for their design work.  They are not the only style though.  I have seen some amazing airports, farms, villages, wine yard (that one is really cute), gas stations, motels, vintage diners, neighborhoods (check our Bedos region), and GTFO HQ.  The GTFO game is a freighting game, where you go from one hub to another, collecting and dropping off virtual cargo and it's a great group of people, many of whom are very dedicated to beautifying the mainland and making it more active.  

I personally own a hub myself, over in Jeogeot, which is a farmers market/diner style and along with a few other hub owners over there, we have been working on building more of a community feel.  We have bus stops now at some of our hubs, so that if you want to take a bus ride, we have that and are working towards more little bus stops over on Satori as well.  I highly encourage you and anyone else to drop by our Basenville region, check out our event/display area, grab a bike and take a little ride through our Hill Valley neighbourhood, that is GTFO enabled, and check out what GTFO looks like now.

Hi, I appreciate what you're saying, and I realize you are describing your own hub which is more aesthetic than a warehouse by having a farmers' market/diner, but I have to tell you, the overwhelming majority of the GTFO sites are warehouses that tend to be drab, iron-and-steel-clad, and seas of concrete and fencing. I have land on 50 sims which I share with other landowners, and I visit as many in a typical week, and I see LOTS of GTFO, and as I said, most of them are warehouses, and quite a few of them blighting the view, i.e. near Lake Caldera. If you had analyzed a total list of GTFO, and told me, "Why, 50% of our GTFO locations are farms and only 25% are concrete warehouses" or whatever, I might believe you instead of my lying eyes, but for now I'll believe my lying eyes.

[Vega Firelyte]

1 minute ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Hi, I appreciate what you're saying, and I realize you are describing your own hub which is more aesthetic than a warehouse by having a farmers' market/diner, but I have to tell you, the overwhelming majority of the GTFO sites are warehouses that tend to be drab, iron-and-steel-clad, and seas of concrete and fencing. I have land on 50 sims which I share with other landowners, and I visit as many in a typical week, and I see LOTS of GTFO, and as I said, most of them are warehouses, and quite a few of them blighting the view, i.e. near Lake Caldera. If you had analyzed a total list of GTFO, and told me, "Why, 50% of our GTFO locations are farms and only 25% are concrete warehouses" or whatever, I might believe you instead of my lying eyes, but for now I'll believe my lying eyes.

I would say that it's approx. 60 - 65% of our GTFO hubs are a wide variety of different types of builds, other than warehouses, which is now approx. 35-40%.  I know this because I'm the personal assistant to the owner of GTFO and one of the ladies that helps occasionally do the setups for the hubs.

[Prokofy Neva]

11 hours ago, Vega Firelyte said:

There was an interview with the owner of GTFO by Luke Skywalker of Drivers of SL.  GTFO is changing and expanding in the future and Cinn Morgi, the owner, talks about the different things that are going to happen in that future.  One of the things will be the ability of hub owners to control what type of freight they will have in their virtual warehouses.  For example, I have a hub that is a Farmer's Market, along with a bakery, post office and cafe on my hub.  In time, I will be able to decide on what I want to have leaving my place, like eggs, milk, vegetables, pies from the bakery, etc.  Slowly but surely, the face of GTFO is changing and it's changing for the better as it grows.  If you want more information, please feel free to message me inworld and I would be more than happy to try to help you.

GTFO is fine for what it is, but what I think would be good is if there was competition to GTFO based on a different concept. With "get out the freight" literally the root of your concept, the builds tend toward the concrete and steel and the warehouse, whatever eggs or baked goods you might weave in. So as I said, it would be good if some other group made a game/activity focused more on travel itself, or sort of scavenger hunts, or put and take of items, rather than the big builds which require owning or renting land. So for example, I could put out a box on my land that would be coded in such a way that someone could deliver eggs or milk to me or flowers or whatever. Just an alternative idea.

[Prokofy Neva]

Just now, Vega Firelyte said:

I would say that it's approx. 60 - 65% of our GTFO hubs are a wide variety of different types of builds, other than warehouses, which is now approx. 35-40%.  I know this because I'm the personal assistant to the owner of GTFO and one of the ladies that helps occasionally do the setups for the hubs.

So what are these "wide variety of builds other than warehouses" given that freight is the main concept? I wasn't deterred from buying and renting out land by Lake Caldera, for example, because I find that GTFO locations don't always stay and sometimes fold their tents but there is quite a hulk of a one over that lake. And I could site others that were like this, i.e. in Itame, that are gone now. Once again, I can only tell you what I see in front of my eyes every day, and what I have seen isn't likely to make me go seek out lovely farmsteads but I'll keep it in mind.

[Vega Firelyte]

4 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

GTFO is fine for what it is, but what I think would be good is if there was competition to GTFO based on a different concept. With "get out the freight" literally the root of your concept, the builds tend toward the concrete and steel and the warehouse, whatever eggs or baked goods you might weave in. So as I said, it would be good if some other group made a game/activity focused more on travel itself, or sort of scavenger hunts, or put and take of items, rather than the big builds which require owning or renting land. So for example, I could put out a box on my land that would be coded in such a way that someone could deliver eggs or milk to me or flowers or whatever. Just an alternative idea.

The reason I commented is because you are working with outdated information.  GTFO "Get the Freight Out", has been, in the last year, undergoing quite a few changes.  There is some areas that still hold onto the warehouse models and that is their choice to do so, which I respect but to say that is mostly what GTFO is now, is incorrect.  Cinn is the new owner from the previous one and she has been working diligently with our Server Elves in expanding and creating a system that will go beyond what GTFO was originally.  I think you will understand though if I keep some of the surprises to come, quiet at this time but let's say that the system is going to be more than just freight, in the future.

[Prokofy Neva]

9 hours ago, Syo Emerald said:

Can someone explain what exactly this group is for? What is its purpose?

Groups are whatever its members make them.

The group charter states, if you look inworld:

A group devoted to appreciating the Mainland by living, working or visiting the legacy Mainland outside of Linden Homes. Members get a free ad board with "Visit the Mainland" texture created by Jack Linden and a portal script to put in the location of your choice. Gifts will also regularly be provided. Chat is encouraged with recommendations, help, causes. We advocate for Linden policies to encourage Mainland living. A hangout is being developed. 

I just made Therese co-owner because she has already got land and a house and has an idea for a HUD and so on and anyone else who has locations and wants to put out things can also be an owner. And if we violently disagree about basic things, like whether photo-real trees on your parcel border are the way to go, or whether 3D trees are more aesthetic (to cite one issue) or if we disagree about the aesthetics or utility of GTFO locations, why, someone can take over the group with their faction and then I will just make another one or go back to some of the others I've made over the years like MISSING INVENTORY or WEATHER REPORT (state of the grid and chronic problems in user-friendly terms that stay away from the whole JIRA/Linden office hour madness).

As I said, I can't start meetings on this at the moment, nor put a lot of effort into it, but I did get a parcel right across the ocean from Bellissaria where you can *almost* sail to Bellissaria, and I will put out the various servers and things I've done for Mainland appreciation, and anyone is welcome to take it from there.  Basically it's just about bringing together those few people who want to bother promoting the Mainland so that they feel they have some company and can advocate on policies or try to improve things directly in their back yards.

BTW, I view "Mainland" as *not* Bellissaria. And that's an important issue to debate and people may fall on different sides of it but managed/zoned Linden Housing sims, while technically Mainland, are not what I've taken to calling "Legacy Mainland," i.e. as SL was first conceived by Philip Linden, before even the private islands were put in. And here I'll quote our famous leader:

"I'd say, stay on the mainland, the idea of clustering and the magic spell of working with your neighbors is just a great appeal." Philip Linden, Town Hall, Second Life, 7/7/06

 

[Vega Firelyte]

7 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So what are these "wide variety of builds other than warehouses" given that freight is the main concept? I wasn't deterred from buying and renting out land by Lake Caldera, for example, because I find that GTFO locations don't always stay and sometimes fold their tents but there is quite a hulk of a one over that lake. And I could site others that were like this, i.e. in Itame, that are gone now. Once again, I can only tell you what I see in front of my eyes every day, and what I have seen isn't likely to make me go seek out lovely farmsteads but I'll keep it in mind.

Correct me if I misunderstand but you are talking about 1 warehouse that is in your area?

[Prokofy Neva]

1 minute ago, Vega Firelyte said:

The reason I commented is because you are working with outdated information.  GTFO "Get the Freight Out", has been, in the last year, undergoing quite a few changes.  There is some areas that still hold onto the warehouse models and that is their choice to do so, which I respect but to say that is mostly what GTFO is now, is incorrect.  Cinn is the new owner from the previous one and she has been working diligently with our Server Elves in expanding and creating a system that will go beyond what GTFO was originally.  I think you will understand though if I keep some of the surprises to come, quiet at this time but let's say that the system is going to be more than just freight, in the future.

It's not that I'm working with outdated information. It's that your beautification message apparently hasn't reached all your users, and I can only repeat what I see on sim after sim after sim, and I'm happy to go out and take screenshots if that would help. I report what I see, not your aspirations. But SL is a big place. On other continents you may be more pretty, and I don't see it as much. I appreciate that you want to flog GTFO, but honestly, marring the map with your logo (needless), using a term that in fact is a swear word (causing brand confusion for sure), not having any way players can actually make cash -- these are all negatives and your effort, while as I said is great for giving people "something to do" is not without its flaws. But it doesn't matter, truly, because SL is a big place, and I have even had tenants with what might even have been some of your more unlovely builds, but everything needs competition in an open society and it wouldn't hurt for others to appear, just as with horses.

[Prokofy Neva]

3 minutes ago, Vega Firelyte said:

Correct me if I misunderstand but you are talking about 1 warehouse that is in your area?

No, read what I wrote. I have land on 50 sims. I visit them constantly. Every day I see GTFO on a map of a sim somewhere. I see lots and lots of GTFOs every day. Beyond those 50 sims, i visit others, where I also see GTFO sites. Lots and lots of them. It's safe to say that I have seen dozens if not hundreds of GTFOs spread over 100 plus sims. Because every sim where I have land has a sim next to it. You're just not willing to hear the problem, but I don't want to go out snapshotting right now, I have better things to do. Accept that because you've given your users free will to use even old "outdated" concrete styles, they...do.

[Prokofy Neva]

So here's just 5 that I quickly went and snapped -- out of the 5, only one is "aesthetic" in terms of being a field of trees and a dark, although the signs are cluttery -- the rest are all concrete bunkers and tanks and such -- good Lord, one even has Communist insignia. So having a diner among them makes it a little more amenable but they're still...warehouses. Because,  you know, it's a *freight* game. Click on any GTFO on the map, and you find them like 4 of these pictures, not the 5th. I realize there may be charming little Japanese kaiseki restaurants seating only 12 with fresh fish and roe and persimmons and leeks delivered twice daily on GTFO bicycles, creating gorgeously picturesque scenes, but we know what GTFO is. There's no need to argue about it. It's great you're diversifying it. Diversity happens when there's more than one company/game/product.

 

[Vega Firelyte]

6 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

It's not that I'm working with outdated information. It's that your beautification message apparently hasn't reached all your users, and I can only repeat what I see on sim after sim after sim, and I'm happy to go out and take screenshots if that would help. I report what I see, not your aspirations. But SL is a big place. On other continents you may be more pretty, and I don't see it as much. I appreciate that you want to flog GTFO, but honestly, marring the map with your logo (needless), using a term that in fact is a swear word (causing brand confusion for sure), not having any way players can actually make cash -- these are all negatives and your effort, while as I said is great for giving people "something to do" is not without its flaws. But it doesn't matter, truly, because SL is a big place, and I have even had tenants with what might even have been some of your more unlovely builds, but everything needs competition in an open society and it wouldn't hurt for others to appear, just as with horses.

Actually, I'm not here to "flog" GTFO as you say but to correct you with your erroneous statements.  You want to claim that they are predominantly warehouses, when that is not the case.  As I said, there is some but they are no longer the predominant style like they use to be.  You don't appear to really be open to correction though and it does seem that you wish to argue with someone who not only has the stats but has visited every one of those hubs, all 500+ of them.  

As for our Logo, you would have to take that matter up with the original owner on why they wished to have it like that but there is no brand confusion at all, regarding it.  Everyone knows what it stands for, including you.  Just to clarify, that logo is very small on the map and is used by the players to help assist them in locating the hubs, especially for our airbourne and water vehicles, though the road drivers do find it very handy as well.  Compared to large signs and logos that I have seen, that cover entire regions, it's miniscule compared to those behemoths. 

As for your point regarding the players earning cash, we don't want to be a pyramid scheme, like some games have turned into, so that is not really a flaw but more of a bonus, because you know we are not there to rip you off in extra charges.  

As for those hub owners who decide to retain their larger builds and older styled warehouses, that is their choice and I respect that because it is also their land.  Our company is inclusive, friendly and non-judgemental.  We won't force anyone to do something they don't wish to do.  

[Vega Firelyte]

2 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

So here's just 5 that I quickly went and snapped -- out of the 5, only one is "aesthetic" in terms of being a field of trees and a dark, although the signs are cluttery -- the rest are all concrete bunkers and tanks and such -- good Lord, one even has Communist insignia. So having a diner among them makes it a little more amenable but they're still...warehouses. Because,  you know, it's a *freight* game. Click on any GTFO on the map, and you find them like 4 of these pictures, not the 5th. I realize there may be charming little Japanese kaiseki restaurants seating only 12 with fresh fish and roe and persimmons and leeks delivered twice daily on GTFO bicycles, creating gorgeously picturesque scenes, but we know what GTFO is. There's no need to argue about it. It's great you're diversifying it. Diversity happens when there's more than one company/game/product.

 

That is a mere 5 and of those 5, one is a Leeward CC area primarily.  That is what they are set up for mainly.  Unlike you though, I will respect their right to set up their land the way they wish.  As I said, between 35-40% of them are warehouses and we have 500+ hubs.  I could also take you through Satori, Jeogoet, Sansara, Heterocera, Fruit Islands, Bellisseria, Corsica, and Nautilus, to name some of them, and show you a ton more that are all really well put together and varied in style.  I'm sorry Prof, but you have your view point and it is erroneous.  I just wanted to correct it but I won't waste more time on someone who just feels like arguing.

[Prokofy Neva]

15 minutes ago, Vega Firelyte said:

Actually, I'm not here to "flog" GTFO as you say but to correct you with your erroneous statements.  You want to claim that they are predominantly warehouses, when that is not the case.  As I said, there is some but they are no longer the predominant style like they use to be.  You don't appear to really be open to correction though and it does seem that you wish to argue with someone who not only has the stats but has visited every one of those hubs, all 500+ of them.  

As for our Logo, you would have to take that matter up with the original owner on why they wished to have it like that but there is no brand confusion at all, regarding it.  Everyone knows what it stands for, including you.  Just to clarify, that logo is very small on the map and is used by the players to help assist them in locating the hubs, especially for our airbourne and water vehicles, though the road drivers do find it very handy as well.  Compared to large signs and logos that I have seen, that cover entire regions, it's miniscule compared to those behemoths. 

As for your point regarding the players earning cash, we don't want to be a pyramid scheme, like some games have turned into, so that is not really a flaw but more of a bonus, because you know we are not there to rip you off in extra charges.  

As for those hub owners who decide to retain their larger builds and older styled warehouses, that is their choice and I respect that because it is also their land.  Our company is inclusive, friendly and non-judgemental.  We won't force anyone to do something they don't wish to do.  

I think it's great that you developed this game that has kept people involved with the Mainland.

I can only report what I see EVERYWHERE with my own eyes in what I think is a fairly large slice of SL. You keep saying that X percent of the sites are different, but they are different by degrees that still don't mitigate against the whole concept of "warehouse" which by its nature, cannot be an aesthetic park or beach. Clearly, you are very attached to this and spent a lot of effort on it, but it's simply not persuasive to keep telling someone like me who sees a LOT of the Mainland that they have "erroneous information" when I see what is in front of my eyes.

It's like this horrendous plague of driverless vehicles. I literally see hundreds of stupid green flying buses a day that in any other context would be considered spam and griefing. But because Lindens love the idea of load tests and sim seam tests they don't have to do and pay staff to track, and because there was that one time that a forums queen went on one of these vehicles in 2010 and thought it was delightful, those of us who actually live and work on the Mainland have to suffer this blight. Try to hear it. The map is a shared space, and GTFO is a tragedy of the commons. It's hardly the worst -- the big hearts and those GIGANTIC domes are far worse a problem, but it's annoying.

The logo isn't "very small" on the map because it covers the whole parcel. Lots of people do that and I find it tacky and annoying. It's everywhere. It's also your right. Since it is so hard to find entry into the economy, it's a shame that it doesn't have cash really, although I realize that has all kinds of pitfalls. Maybe it could be like Bing, make users who want to play "Rewards" spent ridiculously long amounts of time searching for stuff or filling out quizzes in order to earn a US $5 value Amazon card. You could give them gatchas once a week.

Your notion that the WAREHOUSES are built better in Nautilus or the Fruit Islands (those are islands, not Mainland) -- again -- doesn't mitigate the fact that they are WAREHOUSES. Because, you know, it's GTFO, hello! And you haven't supplied any pictures, and I gave you 5 in 5 minutes.

Um, I don't "disrespect" their right to do WTF they want on their land, that sacred FU hedonism of Mainland creed which is responsible for its greatest ills. I have even rented to customers who put the damn things on my lot, and since technically they didn't violate my rules, I tolerated it, although I don't think my neighbours with pretty seaside cottages were very happy. But you have a problem here even if only 30% are ugly because of your free-will values. That's a high percent. The end. You're welcome to have whatever last word you need to have, everyone else knows what their eyes see.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Prokofy Neva

[animats]

Just because it's industrial, it doesn't have to look awful. The climbing ivy improves the brick wall.

 

A friend's freight hub. Simple and well-kept. Decorative fencing helps here.

Should SL have zoning? Something to think about for mainland. Bellesaria is single-family residential, with occasional public areas. One of the big landlords has about five different zones, from single-family residential to heavy industrial. New Babbage has building inspection for city consistency and quality.

 

[ChinRey]

8 hours ago, animats said:

Should SL have zoning?

Yes and no. SL today has both themed areas and unmoderated ones and that's exactly how it should be. The balance between the two is way off though, there are far more unmoderated region than there's really need for and not enough themed ones - and, perhaps even more important - not nearly enough variety in the themes.

[Prokofy Neva]

10 hours ago, animats said:

Just because it's industrial, it doesn't have to look awful. The climbing ivy improves the brick wall.

 

A friend's freight hub. Simple and well-kept. Decorative fencing helps here.

Should SL have zoning? Something to think about for mainland. Bellesaria is single-family residential, with occasional public areas. One of the big landlords has about five different zones, from single-family residential to heavy industrial. New Babbage has building inspection for city consistency and quality.

 

It's ridiculous to think that just because you put up some flowers or decorative ivy on a wall you've somehow disguised the essential WAREHOUSE nature of a WAREHOUSE. It's a sea of concrete and steel. Wrapping flowers around the edge can't change it.

The Lindens long ago decided not to pursue zoning, because it's too much work for them and too much a curb on creativity. And that's how it should be, at root. I do think they could make their special projects like Nautilus have some zoning like "no builds over two stories" or "no builds smack on the property line" to mitigate the disasters. Even that's too much policing for them. But if they responded only to ARs instead of proactively looking for violations -- the way they do on the Marketplace and with adult content -- it might work.

But generally, the propensity of SL residents like yourself to use the AR system merely as a weapon in a political fight for people who don't like your ideas means that any avenue that the Lindens created for "zoning" is an avenue for misuse of the AR system.

[Syo Emerald]

I would disagree that a warehouse (why do I want to keep writing werehouse?! 😂) is in itself ugly. Just as a little cottage is not in itself beautiful by default. Steal and concrete can hold its own beauty and a well-made building is a well-made building, no matter what it is. A 2006-ish cottage with fullbright on on the other hand is not beautiful just because its a cottage.

I wouldn't mind that warehouse animats posted on a neighboring piece of land. Its decent looking for what it is and I have accepted, that a matching theme is not going to be archieved on mainland. I've adapted a "at least its not" thinking. I mean...its a proper building and the owner created a parcel with a consistant look. Thats more than some land owners on mainland seem to be capeable of.

 

Edit: And thanks for answering my question! I was just curious, if there was anything concrete planned to be done.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Syo Emerald

[Therese Tammas]

Whoa guys  lots of unexpected topics here.  Peace and cookies and snuggles...?

 

Look we all have a lot of passion for this place, and we all love Mainland, that's what's important. 

To be honest what I"ve encountered so far, also in my limited GTFO playing experience, are airports (that are okay, they don't look like the Chicago Airport, as example, IRL) and warehouses. @Vega FirelyteMaybe, I propose, that you guys do  marketing campaign of sorts showcasing all the types of hubs you have?  And also encouraging diversity of hub types?  I would like to see more wineries and farms etc.  I love the lower-level jobs of the game that allow me to explore with a GTFO out vehicle that looks like a pretty countryside bicycle, but I think I am the minority player, most people who get attracted into GTFO I think are into the freighting of giant loads and the competition, versus the exploration and neighbor to neighbor interaction..  That being said, there's a lot of really nice put together industrial-themed sims which I appreciate for how well they are put together, and they are very pleasing to see too, in a very city-oriented way.

@Vega Firelyte I would love to see the wineries and farms you mentioned. By any chance, could you share with us some SLURLs?

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Therese Tammas

[Therese Tammas]

Work in Progress =D Hang out for the Mainland Appreciation Society, and sailable to Bellissaria! 

Come hang out! http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Jingi/239/45/22

 

 

 

 

[Therese Tammas]

Also introducing my alt, DiscoverMain ...Currently her name's Abelia, I'm thinking of doing a thing where I celebrate cool cultural names, with a secondary name for her. 

[DiscoverMain]

Hi! =D

...Not entirely sure about this profile picture lol but it's a start!

 

A separate formal intro post will be coming,  I am proposing to Profoky that maybe we do it jointly too  =D to double the fun!

 

Please join me on Flickr ❤️ Add me on there- https://www.flickr.com/people/discovermainsl/

And also on Facebook- https://www.facebook.com/DiscoverMainSL/

 

Also, version 1 of the exploration HUD is testing now, anyone interested in testing it with some exploratory landmarks? It's a very simple HUD, at first...Version 2 will come later with some more fancy options! 

 

 

 

 

[animats]

Some of the problems with mainland builds could be helped with a class, perhaps at Builders' Brewery, on "how to build in difficult terrain". Topics such as:

• How to build on hills. Most prefab SL buildings are for flat ground. Putting them on hills is usually done either with terraforming or with some huge blockish slab underneath. Some examples of best practices would be helpful.
• How to connect to a Linden road. This is often hard to do neatly. Some roads have rocks or high curbs or jaggy parcel boundaries. Linden advice on allowable encroachments would help. Sometimes you just have to reach a bit beyond your parcel to make the connection work. Such work needs to look like it belongs there. This is especially important for GTFO hubs, because they will have truck traffic. For the hard cases, it should be possible to pay for mole work and get a curb cut.
• How to clean up terraforming messes. Where the original moles built rolling terrain, parcel owners have often flattened their lots. A few generations of ownership later, each parcel is flat, at a different level from its neighbors, and there's a cliff at the edge of each parcel. Much abandoned land looks like that.

If someone good at this gives such a class, I'll go.

[Therese Tammas]

@animats my house on Alloy has river (if you can get down the cliff) and road access. I've struggled with it and ended up hiring a "pro" decorator to help me solve the cliff problem. Stay tuned for pics for that. I am hoping it will be magical! For the road access I specifically didn't build a driveway as I was going for the cute garden overgrown look but I smoothed out my land and made my mesh land on top blend in with the terrain

 

One thing which I like about Trompe Loiells work is that she has builds suitable for all land types. I understand now why small homes are so popular....most mainland can only support those small homes. I also see now the value of some older Builder's Box builds which were built on stilts.

[Sister Nova]

A very interesting thread, I've greatly enjoyed reading through it.