Chat Logs & SL TOS

[MajikVixen Lorefield]

Greetings...

Would be great if an actual Linden would chime in... I would trust @Lindal Kidd as well...

...Just asked the Premium Chat, and they are not allowed to interpret legal here, so I'm at a loss...

• I do need clarification.
• It's about sharing chat logs...
• I have not done so, but a couple of important people, a group leader and a meeting leader are insisting that if you e-mail them (outside the platform of SL) that it does not break the TOS.  I do not think this is true. I believe there is no loop-hole as such.
• How can I be sure?

[Lindal Kidd]

Hey, Violet!

It's not so hard to understand, once you understand how LL operates.  They are not villains, and they are not deliberately hiding things, other than what's necessary for legal reasons.

Point one:  The Governance Team is not nameless and faceless.  They have held public meetings in SL in the past, and I feel sure that they will do so again.  (No, the public is NOT invited to see them at work adjudicating specific ARs!  But you CAN talk to them.)

Point two:  LL will not, as Rocko told you, give clarification/interpretation of the ToS, or discuss any specific case with a resident.  This is for legal reasons.  The ToS is the Word of God, and the only way you can change it, or even discuss it, is to bring a legal action against LL.  If LL employees say anything to you, it could prejudice the outcome of any such action.  So, they don't.  As far as discussing a specific case, they will never do that.  Your input is your official AR.  Then, LL uses that, plus their official chat and IM logs, to make a decision:  Was there a ToS violation?  If so, is this the first time?  How severe should the penalty be?  All that is up to the Governance Team.

The team is small...three to five people, if I remember right.  This group is responsible for reviewing and adjudicating about 3,000 ARs per day!  So they don't have a lot of time for each one.  However, LL assures us that they DO look at every single AR.

The reason it feels to us that they don't is because so many ARs are about things that are not actual ToS violations.  Obviously, for these, nothing gets done.  Someone called you a bad name?  Someone stole your boyfriend?  Someone picketed your store?  Landlord kicked you off your land with no refund?  Sorry...interpersonal disputes, not ToS violations.  Even when there IS a violation and LL imposes a penalty, they won't tell YOU about it.  LL protects everyone's privacy, even the privacy of dirty bad nasty scoundrels.

[Rolig Loon]

That one has been discussed here in the Answers area many times and, in fact, was answered directly by one of the Lindens (Madori?) sometime last year. The Community Standards (the TOS, by inclusion) do say "Except for the purpose of reporting abuse or any violation of policies to Linden Lab, the remote monitoring, posting or sharing of conversations without a participant’s consent are prohibited." So it's clear what they expect as moral  behavior.  It's not nice to share conversations without permission. However, Linden Lab cannot control what you do outside of SL, so once you are not on their servers, they have no control over what you do. It amounts to a practical loophole.  It's still not nice, though.

[MajikVixen Lorefield]

...I had thought so, however, I'm not that Google savvy.  Thank you for the clarification.  I agree that it's not nice.  I simply record chat logs to make it look like I remember the tiny things (so much stuff happens, you know?).  I will definitely be more careful now.

[Rolig Loon]

16 minutes ago, Velk Kerang said:

It's just another way for people to cry about something in order to get someone else in trouble for some stupidness they went and got themselves in to for the most part rather then watch what they are saying to people in the first place in most cases.

That's certainly one way to look at it.  People should indeed be much more careful about what they put in writing.  At the same time, there are situations in which you can say something confidential to a person who should be trustworthy but who turns around and repeats your words to the world.  It's a familiar dilemma:  Who do you trust, and how much do you say?  The easy solution, as you suggest, is to retreat into paranoia and never say anything that you wouldn't want to see plastered on a billboard.  The trouble with that it puts all the blame for any bad feelings back entirely on you when, in fact, at least part of the blame belongs to the person that you trusted to keep her fat mouth shut.  

In the end, we have to trust each other.  We also have to take reasonable care not to say things that might come back to bite us later.  Somewhere in that balance there should be an understanding that if someone tells you something confidential, you shouldn't repeat it without permission.

[MajikVixen Lorefield]

Aha.  I see, I think.

My issue is with a place that represents itself as peer support for mental health issues in SL.  This whole chat-log loop-hole was their idea, making what they stand for somewhat hypocritical (as they reiterate at the start of every meeting that everyone should feel safe to share in nearby chat, because "what is said here, stays here").  This was discovered on accident, as after years of attending, someone whom I had a past problem with suddenly showed up, and I stupidly sought out the leaders' additional advice... and they asked for "proof."

...So then, are they unethical since they're only "peer support" and not "professional support" (as that must be their loop-hole to play on the aforementioned TOS loop-hole)?  And how far can I take this?  Is this reportable to LL as some type of abuse?  -As I kinda feel like all the ppl seeking some mental health support in SL have a right to know and therefore make educated decisions for themselves as to what may not "stay there" when they share.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

9 hours ago, BlueVioletVixen Lorefield said:

Aha.  I see, I think.

My issue is with a place that represents itself as peer support for mental health issues in SL.  This whole chat-log loop-hole was their idea, making what they stand for somewhat hypocritical (as they reiterate at the start of every meeting that everyone should feel safe to share in nearby chat, because "what is said here, stays here").  This was discovered on accident, as after years of attending, someone whom I had a past problem with suddenly showed up, and I stupidly sought out the leaders' additional advice... and they asked for "proof."

...So then, are they unethical since they're only "peer support" and not "professional support" (as that must be their loop-hole to play on the aforementioned TOS loop-hole)?  And how far can I take this?  Is this reportable to LL as some type of abuse?  -As I kinda feel like all the ppl seeking some mental health support in SL have a right to know and therefore make educated decisions for themselves as to what may not "stay there" when they share.

The question of these support groups has come up many times in the past.. With no legal resolution. Can they legally give mental health therapy, no. Can they offer support and advice, yes.. Anyone can do that. Personally I would seek ut RL professional help before looking within SL. 

AS to the chat logs, LL made it possible to log them automatically. They have no legal standing on anything but their own servers. People post them on Discord, FB, Twitter, FetLife and many other sites. Is it morally wrong? That depends on who you ask. Naming and shaming someone who sells empty boxes on the MP would be fine with me. Calling out someone for how their av looks? Not so much. 

[Velk Kerang]

I more or less agree with Drake1 Nightfire. While I am not big on naming and shaming myself I do agree on some things a good solid heads up should be allowed to be given. To go Johnny Linden Law for a moment. As far as TOS goes they are not allowed to share jack. So you can report them if the situation presents itself. If you get an admittance of guilt you want to do it while the IM box is still freshly open and visibly showing the chat. You want to be as specific and straight to the point as possible. Don't write a book, but make sure they have the whole full meal package of a mental picture. You need to make sure the viewer when you report caught the photo image of what your reporting. This more then anything will produce results. I can attest to this from my experience being part of the Green Lantern's anti-griefing group. I learned a lot from them and while legally there is nothing that can be done you can fight back if what they are doing is a TOS violation and you can prove it.

Now having said that based off what I read there are a few things I also want to point out. More then likely the reason they asked for proof is because of it being a your word against his type of situation. So it might be more of an issue of them trying to be fair to everyone involved in the situation and less of an issue of them wishing to violate any TOS regulations. If that's the case I might be inclined to give them a pass if it were me personally. I think what I would find insulting is if they just met this person and you have been attending years and for some reason your word is now not good enough. That would be the deal killer for me that would make me walk out and simply wash my hands of the entire situation.

Now we gonna address the Crazy Groups in SL. Before I go any further let me point out I am using that term in jest to poke fun at me and not you. I'll use Mental Help for you and the rest of the world. So when I say Mental Help I mean you and everybody else. When I say Crazy Group I mean me. lol I blame my Pop for that joke because when we both at one time had to take pills for mental reasons he called them his Crazy Pills and that just struck me as hilarious the way he said it and it has stuck with me ever since. lol Now that, that is out of the way moving on. lol

For Mental Help groups I seriously recommend vetting them hard if your talking to people in SL. I tend to agree with Drake1 that finding an RL solution is the better road to travel. I can't stress that enough. I also know that can become expensive as well too so searching and seeking out support groups in your home area is another alternative as well too. I would not look at these Mental Help groups as anything more then support group material comprised up of mostly other individuals out there seeking help as well.

Which leads me to the story of my Crazy Group experience. lol I am not gonna go in to super detail on what my issues where except to say I wasn't suicidal, but my head was in a dark place for some reasons during this time period that were out of my control. Now I am not going to name and shame the group because if it has helped someone then I don't want to take that away by something I say or give them a negative impression if they have had entirely positive experiences. For me however I joined this group and I tped in for the first meeting. Nobody spoke to me. It was as if I was not even there. I sat in that meeting for maybe an hour if not possibly two. I even seen the SL wife of an old friend from back in my SL boxing days. She didn't even speak.

I attempted to participate in the conversation a few times trying to give it the god old military try and nothing. Not even a kiss my behind from them folks. lol So I sat back and watched and waited. I thought maybe everybody get's a turn. Maybe at some point they will ask the new people to introduce themselves. Nope. lol Now at some point and I don't know why, but I even started having funny thoughts all of a sudden such as I wonder if I was to find a dirty movie on the internet and mic up with it playing and start breathing heavy in to the mic if they will even notice me then? lol Or maybe I should have just showed up to the meeting in my Johnny 5 avatar gang outfitted up like he was in the 2nd. movie smoking a joint then I might have actually got a hello out of someone. lol

Now about after an hour and a half of having funny thought after funny thought I had amused myself so much and to such a degree that I was laughing so hard that I was in literal tears. lol So by the time the meeting was over I had realized these people have helped me and they had not even so much as asked me why I was even there in the first place let alone to even introduce my name. Lmao!!!!

Over all between the laughter and tears it struck me as only really a few peoples issues were addressed and it was more of a big pow pow session then an actual group therapy meeting. More of a bunch of people in a room complaining and focused solely on themselves rather then a professional environment setting I would have visually and mentally expected to walk in to.

Anyway I hope if nothing else my experience has at the very least made you laugh or smile a bit. lol Good luck in getting yours resolved.

[Alyona Su]

On 10/13/2019 at 9:53 AM, BlueVioletVixen Lorefield said:

I have not done so, but a couple of important people, a group leader and a meeting leader are insisting that if you e-mail them (outside the platform of SL) that it does not break the TOS.  I do not think this is true. I believe there is no loop-hole as such.

No need to walls-of-text: It is true. LL ToS only applies to Linden Lab-controlled entities. So even copying IM Chat logs to another web site outside Linden Lab web sites... does not break TOS.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Alyona Su

[MajikVixen Lorefield]

Alright.  As a writer, am I entitled to any intellectual property rights with my own words?  I mean, visual arts get a DMCA.  Writers usually deal with plagiarism, but this scenario just blows me away ... as it was never spelled out for me (or anyone who might be of any kind of cognitive/experience deficit, language barrier, etc.). 

 

...And I believe I am now having a SL existential crisis...

I trusted and believed in dumb things like integrity.  Residents even prefer to reference SL as a "virtual reality platform," and not a "game" because you can be and do anything you want in here, that you may not be able to accomplish in RL.  And now that it's been 11 years, this brings to light my personal conundrum that, well, now I'm convinced that the Earth was never round (as hundreds of years of science would prove), but it's actually been indeed flat (as proven by an ongoing degradation of humanity) all along!  

It's very disappointing, yeah.  I came here for escape from the "horrors" I experienced from humanity in RL.  Can you imagine if someone who was bedridden came to live in SL, and found nothing but reasons to not trust or even participate in humanity anymore?  I don't think this is what LL had in mind when creating SL.  But I guess it's just the nature of humanity to put everything to the test until it's inevitably broken ...and then Honda buys Sansar.

Anyway. 

Thank you SL forum, for finally enlightening me (with your wonderful humor, kindness, and truthful/straightforward thoughts).  They are much appreciated. 

Wish ANY of the newcomer friendly places had taken the initiative, long ago. 

And in a way, I guess I can't be mad at the mental health support group/place, because they brought this to my attention (in the way that one might be shocked to discover death at a young age via a pet or something). 

...But I certainly wish that I had some sort of recourse or option, other than to be even more careful of whom I trust in here, and to watch every single word I utter until I'm completely & catatonic-ally driven to go outside instead.

[Lindal Kidd]

11 hours ago, BlueVioletVixen Lorefield said:

Alright.  As a writer, am I entitled to any intellectual property rights with my own words?  I mean, visual arts get a DMCA.  Writers usually deal with plagiarism, but this scenario just blows me away ... as it was never spelled out for me (or anyone who might be of any kind of cognitive/experience deficit, language barrier, etc.).

An interesting question, Violet!

Here in SL, we are governed by the Terms of Service.  The ToS says that no one may copy and distribute your chat or IM to a third party without your permission.  That is, in effect, a form of copyright.  However, the writ of the ToS only runs to venues LL can control...the Second Life world and this website.

Outside of SL, we might think that the issue becomes one of real world copyright.  According to US copyright law, anyone has automatic and complete rights as to how their own "original works" may be used.  According to USLegal.com, an original work of authorship "refers to any type of expression independently conceived by its creator."  https://definitions.uslegal.com/o/original-work-of-authorship/

It is arguable whether a chat or an IM session can be considered to be "independently conceived", as it is a conversation between two or more people.  So let's leave that one to the lawyers, and consider whether a chat or IM log is a "privileged communication".

Communications between certain parties are regarded as "privileged"; that is, they may not be disclosed even in a legal proceeding.  Doctor-patient relationships, attorney-client relationships, and husband-and-wife relationships all fall into this class.  But we here in SL don't (usually) fall into one of these very restricted classes recognized by the law.  Again, it is arguable whether the ToS has created some sort of special privileged relationship that is legally enforceable.  I'm not aware that anyone has tried to test this in court.

The bottom line is just what others have said...your chat and IMs are protected by the ToS against unauthorized disclosure to a third party by the Terms of Service.  Since LL cannot enforce the ToS outside of SL, then yes, it's possible, and (barring taking someone to court over it) probably legal for your in-world conversations to be posted on other platforms outside of SL.  Not that that would be right, mind you.

EDIT:

I just thought of one way in which LL could, if they chose, enforce the ToS on someone who posted chat or IMs on an external platform.  If you could prove to them that the person posting on the external platform was, in fact, someone with an SL account, Linden Lab COULD delete that person's account as punishment.  But this strikes me as unlikely.  In the first place, it's not easy to prove that "Lindal Kidd" in SL is also @realDonaldTrump on Twitter.  And, in the second place, they'd be opening themselves up for a lot of trouble, in return for little if any gain.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Lindal Kidd

[Rolig Loon]

And, to your specific case, we're in a gray area in SL on matters that should be covered by professional licenses in RL.  In role play, anyone can play the role of a doctor, a police officer, or an engineer, but there's no requirement that says you should wear a tag that says, "I'm not really a doctor, but I play one in SL."  The unspoken assumption is that anyone here is always in a role, regardless of what our credentials may be in RL.  So, don't trust your SL doctor/lawyer/policeman, engineer to give you good professional advice or to follow other standards of RL.  Sadly, that's not always well understood, so it is very easy for us to stumble into situations that are unethical, if not illegal.  As Lindal says, that's a gray area that has never been tested in the courts, as far as I know.

[MajikVixen Lorefield]

23 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

EDIT:

I just thought of one way in which LL could, if they chose, enforce the ToS on someone who posted chat or IMs on an external platform.  If you could prove to them that the person posting on the external platform was, in fact, someone with an SL account, Linden Lab COULD delete that person's account as punishment.  But this strikes me as unlikely.  In the first place, it's not easy to prove that "Lindal Kidd" in SL is also @realDonaldTrump on Twitter.  And, in the second place, they'd be opening themselves up for a lot of trouble, in return for little if any gain.

That's very interesting!  It would be blatantly evident, if in one's SL IM, they gave their e-mail address (specifically for sharing chat logs), and then utilized that e-mail address to further break privacy/property laws (and probably SL TOS, as this is now the loop-hole for the loop-hole).  Especially if that e-mail was linked to a SL account.

Yeah, I guess one could try to be crafty (alts, different e-mails, VPN, etc.)  ...But everything ultimately leaves a footprint once it's out on the web - ask any professional website builder (or IT person, detective, or even a person thinking about running for office).

And yeah, I can see why a business wouldn't want to be involved in these types of legal issues, as this kind of publicity usually never ends well.  ...Plus who wants to help put definition/restraint on the likes of "SL" when it's more marketable as being open to interpretation or experience?  (Who is your avatar?  Who are you?  Are you real?  Are you a troll?  Are you anonymous?  Is this fantasy?  Is this reality?  Is it a fantasy that extends into reality or vice-versa?  ...Should we even define a creative media like SL?  Where is the boundary?  Where do you draw the line?  ...And if it's primarily up to the consumer, then IMO, it needs to be more blatant and not so blurred.)  I get it.  And in a perfect world, where leaders lead by example, it would certainly be nice if someone would step in and ironically prevent potential situations that advocate any type of sociopath/predator activities or [cyber-]bullying other than "you have a choice to TP away or use the 'mute'/'block' buttons."  ...But then again, how would that negatively impact the [predominantly narcissistic] SL economy?  ...And while we're at it, you know what would also be really ironic here?  Having to share "unsharable" chat logs outside of SL to an attorney.  ...I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this point!

Also, lawbreakers are banking on "the fact" that anything to do with the court system takes a LONG time and can be VERY pricey, so the plaintiff may be off-put or deterred.  ...To which, I say, "If you have lost everything, then you have nothing to lose by fighting for the restoration of your dignity."

 

Ultimately, there's lots of variables and speculations.  

Let's just say it boils down to whether or not the ends justify the means, and whether or not these risks are worth it.

 

My personal legacy is that you always hit harder when you find a way to do it, playing by the rules.  If you hit below the belt, you are weak, amongst other not-so-great adjectives, that will inevitably surface to define your character's legacy and deductively conclude it.  <---Proverbs & idioms: "lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas" + "you reap what you sow."

Edited October 18, 2019 by BlueVioletVixen Lorefield

[MajikVixen Lorefield]

BTW, I opened a ticket for clarification, and this was the end result...

...I find it odd that the people in charge, who wrote the TOS, cannot interpret them outright.  Therefore, I can only assume, by reading between the lines, that in order to get anything done, it must be passed off to the abuse team (who may also be Lindens, but who most importantly get to stay nameless/faceless + behind the scenes, for obvious legal reasons).  So I believe Velk is right!

On 10/17/2019 at 5:51 AM, Velk Kerang said:

To go Johnny Linden Law for a moment. As far as TOS goes they are not allowed to share jack. So you can report them if the situation presents itself. If you get an admittance of guilt you want to do it while the IM box is still freshly open and visibly showing the chat. You want to be as specific and straight to the point as possible. Don't write a book, but make sure they have the whole full meal package of a mental picture. You need to make sure the viewer when you report caught the photo image of what your reporting. This more then anything will produce results. 

I've not had much luck with reporting abuse in the past.  I kind of feel it goes off into the oblivion wayside when you report something.  But I guess it's better than doing nothing, in case a subpoena should come into effect, to chase down some type of trail.

[Rolig Loon]

The point is that Linden Lab's Governance Team has the responsibility for handling Abuse Reports and dealing with reported TOS violations.  If you submit a Support Case, you are asking a different group whose sole responsibility is to troubleshoot hardware/software issues.  They are not likely to wade into interpretations of the TOS, and the Governance Team isn't likely to give you a blanket TOS interpretation.  Just as in RL courts, the boundaries of policy are defined by specific incidents.

[Velk Kerang]

1 hour ago, BlueVioletVixen Lorefield said:

BTW, I opened a ticket for clarification, and this was the end result...

 

I do not entirely agree with my respected counterparts. Far be it for me to dispute their points as I do agree on some of what they said, but and keep in mind it's been ages since I even bothered to file a support ticket because my feelings on support is that they'd have to work extremely hard for me to even have a low opinion about their services in the first place. That being said the last time I filed on you had individual departments you could sent the ticket to. Now depending on what you put in your ticket I know if I were to file a ticket in any of a dozen mmo communities I have been a member of and asked for a blanket break down explanation of their ToS then that is what I would receive. I would get one because they want to make sure you have a clear understanding of the rules and guidelines of their terms of service.

I mean otherwise people will just have the attitude of oh your not going to clarify your own ToS? Ah well I don't have to follow it then. I mean that's just stupid every which way you paint it. I find it interesting anyone would even defend that type of moronic thinking. That's just funny to me. lol

If that was all you asked them for then it baffles me they were unable to provide this. That is pathetic by any standard and there really is no justification for it. People can say what they want, but there just really is no excuse for not being able to do that one simple thing. Come on people it's not rocket science.

I honestly would have to agree with the ladies on this point though in this specific case and say having worked tech support for XBox myself in the past that poor Rockos hands are tied with some stupid rule preventing him from discussing it. Still there should have been someone that ticket could have been forwarded to in order to provide you with the assistance you needed. Side note, loving his name btw. He makes me want to go watch Rocky movies now. Lmao!!!! 😜

That being said every now and again you do get a good CSR experience. It's just rare for most people I have spoken with personally. More often then not policy is to blame rather then lack of competence of the person. Like they said they won't discuss specific cases and situations with you with the one exception I do want to add which is unless it is about you specifically. Depending on the situation is depending on what they will and will not discuss. They do have to cover themselves and make sure they do things the right way and not the wrong way.

Also I get why you'd feel doing a report is a waste of time. That's one of the reasons why I emphasized picture proof earlier. As long as your covered on that front you should if they are properly doing their jobs that day you should see some type of results. You won't hear back from them usually, but if someone is committing a bannable offense they generally do not last very long. Just make sure you dot your I's and cross your T's and you should be fine.

It's a coin toss really as if you will see results or not though. I woke up to IM's where I have had someone threaten to murder me in RL and shook my head and I reported it and kept it moving which interestingly enough they are still around to this very day. Nothing ever came of it. The other side of that coin is I've reported people for ***** and griefing huds and laggers being used to attack residents on sims and those cases were handled. Which also let me point out those are generally the only offenses I'll get out of bed for. Keep in mind people report on some of the stupidest stuff on here. So in their defense too they have to work threw and weed out all the big dummy reports before they can even get to and touch the real ones.

I am really very sorry you had such a bad experience with them. I read that and all I could say was wow. lol I am still shaking my head on that one. I don't know if they still do this or not, but if they still offer phone support then you might be better off ringing them up and getting somebody on the horn and see if they can explain and answer any questions and concerns you have regarding the ToS. I've had better luck with their phone support then I have ever had using that ticket system. Back in the day their phone support was awesome. So if they still have and offer that then I'd might consider trying them. Good luck.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

 

55 minutes ago, Velk Kerang said:

I do not entirely agree with my respected counterparts. Far be it for me to dispute their points as I do agree on some of what they said, but and keep in mind it's been ages since I even bothered to file a support ticket because my feelings on support is that they'd have to work extremely hard for me to even have a low opinion about their services in the first place. That being said the last time I filed on you had individual departments you could sent the ticket to. Now depending on what you put in your ticket I know if I were to file a ticket in any of a dozen mmo communities I have been a member of and asked for a blanket break down explanation of their ToS then that is what I would receive. I would get one because they want to make sure you have a clear understanding of the rules and guidelines of their terms of service.

If that was all you asked them for then it baffles me they were unable to provide this. That is pathetic by any standard and there really is no justification for it. People can say what they want, but there just really is no excuse for not being able to do that one simple thing. Come on people it's not rocket science.

 

The ToS is fairly clear on the subject... There is nothing in the actual ToS about sharing chat logs at all.. That's in the Community Standards, which states at the outset, "These Standards set out actions that could result in restrictions on your access to the Service, up to and including account termination." (emphasis mine) Now that one word, could, is kind of key here. The Standards are just that, standards, not out and out rules you MUST follow. 

The Governance team aren't lawyers, and even if they were, they are NOT paid to interpret the ToS or any part of LL guidelines for you. That would be YOUR lawyers job. As is stated by any lawyer worth their salt, have a lawyer read any binding document, even if online, read by one before signing it.  

That all stated, there is nothing LL can do about chat logs shared on a website, server, email, or anything else not controlled by them. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Drake1 Nightfire

[Velk Kerang]

45 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

 

The ToS is fairly clear on the subject... There is nothing in the actual ToS about sharing chat logs at all.. That's in the Community Standards, which states at the outset, "These Standards set out actions that could result in restrictions on your access to the Service, up to and including account termination." (emphasis mine) Now that one word, could, is kind of key here. The Standards are just that, standards, not out and out rules you MUST follow. 

The Governance team aren't lawyers, and even if they were, they are NOT paid to interpret the ToS or any part of LL guidelines for you. That would be YOUR lawyers job. As is stated by any lawyer worth their salt, have a lawyer read any binding document, even if online, read by one before signing it.  

That all stated, there is nothing LL can do about chat logs shared on a website, server, email, or anything else not controlled by them. 

First I want to point out the fact that you explained and elaborated more then what was done in that support email validated everything I just said mate. Thank you. You just made my exact point for me. I bet it wasn't even that hard to do. So why would it be so hard and difficult for that to have been explained in that email? I personally couldn't remember if it was or wasn't covered in it, but I could have swore it was covered in there as well too. In either case mate they didn't even tell her that much. They need to toss you a check or at the very least some lindens because you just did their job for them brother. lol

On the statement of it being MY lawyers job to interrupt a mmos ToS for me rather then it being their responsibility to clearly define their own ToS and as for the excuse for them being unable to. I will respond on that note with this simple question. They serving ice cream in hell yet? lol  

Because that'll be the day when that happens. lol I can't believe I even read that. I usually agree with most everything I've seen you say on these forums, but I guess there is a first time for everything and today is that day. I am sorry, but that just doesn't even make no type of sense. Now I am sure your just pointing out how it is and all, but I am saying the way it is set up makes absolutely no type of sense at all what so ever. I mean let's get real here. No one in their right mind hires a lawyer for a ToS break down let alone community guidelines. lol If someone told me they did I would more then likely ask them what in the heck is your major malfunction? Lmao!!!! 😂

And makes it even funnier is both really falls under their responsibility to explain to folks. EVERY mmo company/community knows this and what? Some how LL is magically exempt from this bit of common sense. If ya ask me common sense left the building years ago when everyone accepted this practice as the norm rather then question it. It's on the same level of people accepting what Alpha games were originally vs what is considered to be the norm. today.

You are right on that last statement though more then likely nothing will come of it. You are wrong though that nothing can be done about it. Last I checked though this was in the ToS. Did it change from the time of my last post? lol

 

1.Disclosure

Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Life experience. Sharing personal information about your fellow Residents without their consent -- including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, alternate account names, and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their Resident profile -- is not allowed. Remotely monitoring conversations in Second Life, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without the participants' consent are all prohibited.

This older wiki is probably more explicit about that:

Disclosing private Second Life conversations

Sharing or posting a conversation inworld or in the Second Life forums without consent of all involved Residents is a violation of the Terms of Service.

NOTE: This does not include posting of chat to social media sites or other websites. Posting such logs on web pages, emailing them, or printing them out and posting them on utility poles in the "real world" -- are all actions beyond the scope of the Second Life Terms of Service. ; while that might be illegal, but those laws must be enforced by the proper law enforcement agencies.

"Conversation" means text that originally came from Second Life chat or Second Life instant messages. If it's totally unattributed, then it isn't considered disclosure. Additionally, Residents are not punished for sharing or posting a comment such as "Bob Resident said, 'You're the greatest!'"

 

Might want to double check on that one mate. I don't want them to fire ya. Lmao!!!!

[MajikVixen Lorefield]

4 hours ago, Velk Kerang said:

I am really very sorry you had such a bad experience with them. I read that and all I could say was wow. lol I am still shaking my head on that one. I don't know if they still do this or not, but if they still offer phone support then you might be better off ringing them up and getting somebody on the horn and see if they can explain and answer any questions and concerns you have regarding the ToS. I've had better luck with their phone support then I have ever had using that ticket system. Back in the day their phone support was awesome. So if they still have and offer that then I'd might consider trying them. Good luck.

Calling phone support was the second thing I did before coming to the forums.  They also said the same thing, that they are not allowed to interpret ToS, for legal reasons.

[MajikVixen Lorefield]

7 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

It's not so hard to understand, once you understand how LL operates.  They are not villains, and they are not deliberately hiding things, other than what's necessary for legal reasons.

Point one:  The Governance Team is not nameless and faceless.  They have held public meetings in SL in the past, and I feel sure that they will do so again.  (No, the public is NOT invited to see them at work adjudicating specific ARs!  But you CAN talk to them.)

Point two:  LL will not, as Rocko told you, give clarification/interpretation of the ToS, or discuss any specific case with a resident.  This is for legal reasons.  The ToS is the Word of God, and the only way you can change it, or even discuss it, is to bring a legal action against LL.  If LL employees say anything to you, it could prejudice the outcome of any such action.  So, they don't.  As far as discussing a specific case, they will never do that.  Your input is your official AR.  Then, LL uses that, plus their official chat and IM logs, to make a decision:  Was there a ToS violation?  If so, is this the first time?  How severe should the penalty be?  All that is up to the Governance Team.

The team is small...three to five people, if I remember right.  This group is responsible for reviewing and adjudicating about 3,000 ARs per day!  So they don't have a lot of time for each one.  However, LL assures us that they DO look at every single AR.

The reason it feels to us that they don't is because so many ARs are about things that are not actual ToS violations.  Obviously, for these, nothing gets done.  Someone called you a bad name?  Someone stole your boyfriend?  Someone picketed your store?  Landlord kicked you off your land with no refund?  Sorry...interpersonal disputes, not ToS violations.  Even when there IS a violation and LL imposes a penalty, they won't tell YOU about it.  LL protects everyone's privacy, even the privacy of dirty bad nasty scoundrels.

*nod nods* 

I do not think LL or Lindens are villains, and I do understand what you are saying, and furthermore appreciate it very much. 

I did not realize how small the Governance Team was (I thought maybe it was more like 20 ppl in a building of maybe 50 - Lindens and maybe lawyers or a legal team) , but I figured that was what happened with a lot of ARs (to which your examples are prolly a lot of what those ARs unfortunately end up being).

Let's just hope that they all get the coffee they need!  :) ♥

Edited October 24, 2019 by BlueVioletVixen Lorefield

[Drake1 Nightfire]

2 hours ago, Velk Kerang said:

 

You are right on that last statement though more then likely nothing will come of it. You are wrong though that nothing can be done about it. Last I checked though this was in the ToS. Did it change from the time of my last post? lol

 

1.Disclosure

Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Life experience. Sharing personal information about your fellow Residents without their consent -- including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, alternate account names, and real-world location beyond what is provided by them in their Resident profile -- is not allowed. Remotely monitoring conversations in Second Life, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without the participants' consent are all prohibited.

This older wiki is probably more explicit about that:

Disclosing private Second Life conversations

Sharing or posting a conversation inworld or in the Second Life forums without consent of all involved Residents is a violation of the Terms of Service.

NOTE: This does not include posting of chat to social media sites or other websites. Posting such logs on web pages, emailing them, or printing them out and posting them on utility poles in the "real world" -- are all actions beyond the scope of the Second Life Terms of Service. ; while that might be illegal, but those laws must be enforced by the proper law enforcement agencies.

"Conversation" means text that originally came from Second Life chat or Second Life instant messages. If it's totally unattributed, then it isn't considered disclosure. Additionally, Residents are not punished for sharing or posting a comment such as "Bob Resident said, 'You're the greatest!'"

 

Might want to double check on that one mate. I don't want them to fire ya. Lmao!!!!

You might want to re-read what i wrote

 

4 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

That all stated, there is nothing LL can do about chat logs shared on a website, server, email, or anything else not controlled by them. 

What you quoted from the ToS backs up what i said.. LL can NOT do anything about sites not controlled by them. They cant tell Facebook/Discord/Twitter to pull a post containing chat logs as that falls under the first amendment. Free Speech. 

[Velk Kerang]

16 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

You might want to re-read what i wrote

I did and I stand corrected. I am sorry about that. I was speed reading last night while trying to give advice at the same time. Feel free to give me crap as the Guy code and the Governance team of Man Law demands mate. lol

They did change it. That's all you really had to say. lol Technically and correct me if I am wrong on this, but based on my interpretation of it this still looks like it is still part of the ToS and the Community Standards is just a sub-section of that main ToS as with any contract. Maybe I am just not understanding why your saying it is not part of the ToS. If you don't mind will you elaborate more on your thoughts regarding that please? I'll yield to your expert tutelage on this one mate. lol

17 hours ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

What you quoted from the ToS backs up what i said.. LL can NOT do anything about sites not controlled by them. They cant tell Facebook/Discord/Twitter to pull a post containing chat logs as that falls under the first amendment. Free Speech. 

What it is also backs up is what I said as well too. With in the confines of Second Life LL absolutely can and WILL do something about it. I never once said or implied that outside of Second Life they could do anything about it. That's the horse of an entirely different color. If it seemed or appeared that way then I am most definitely sorry about that. On that point your absolutely correct. Which is exactly why I gave the advice that I did in order to ensure a greater probability of success when filing an abuse report. That Free Speech only extends so far with in the confines of this virtual world. Seen a lot of bans because of exercising that Free Speech the absolute wrong way on here. Don't take my word for it though. Ask any long time Resident of any reputable anti-griefing group out there and they will tell you the same exact thing I did mate.

18 hours ago, BlueVioletVixen Lorefield said:

Calling phone support was the second thing I did before coming to the forums.  They also said the same thing, that they are not allowed to interpret ToS, for legal reasons.

I am really and truly very sorry. I am at a loss for words. It really makes absolutely no type of sense what so ever as to why they can not explain their own terms of service to customers that they themselves have written out for the services in which they provide. I've just never seen a situation quite like this before until now. To be entirely honest if this had been an experience I personally had when I first joined years ago then for me it would have sent up red flags to me not to invest my time and money in to their mmo and I very more then likely would not have stayed a member of this community for very long had I been aware of this as a new member starting fresh out of the gate. I mean being real about it that's just a very bad sign. lol I'm just saying. lol Any other company/mmo community would be more then happy to offer up a clear explanation to their customers. It really does speak volumes to the extreme low quality of service LL provides to it's customers.

[MajikVixen Lorefield]

5 hours ago, Velk Kerang said:

I am really and truly very sorry. I am at a loss for words. It really makes absolutely no type of sense what so ever as to why they can not explain their own terms of service to customers that they themselves have written out for the services in which they provide. I've just never seen a situation quite like this before until now. To be entirely honest if this had been an experience I personally had when I first joined years ago then for me it would have sent up red flags to me not to invest my time and money in to their mmo and I very more then likely would not have stayed a member of this community for very long had I been aware of this as a new member starting fresh out of the gate. I mean being real about it that's just a very bad sign. lol I'm just saying. lol Any other company/mmo community would be more then happy to offer up a clear explanation to their customers. It really does speak volumes to the extreme low quality of service LL provides to it's customers.

Although I can very much agree with your thoughts here... I'm going to try and focus on what Lindal said about it needing to be this way so that if LL needs to help you legally, it doesn't backfire.  That's about the best I can do with that.  [Second] Life does go on.  So I'm just going to continue being productive and trying to do the right thing in all situations, and hope that nothing really horrible has to become an ugly legal matter.

[Velk Kerang]

12 hours ago, BlueVioletVixen Lorefield said:

Although I can very much agree with your thoughts here... I'm going to try and focus on what Lindal said about it needing to be this way so that if LL needs to help you legally, it doesn't backfire.  That's about the best I can do with that.  [Second] Life does go on.  So I'm just going to continue being productive and trying to do the right thing in all situations, and hope that nothing really horrible has to become an ugly legal matter.

That's actually the best attitude to have being honest. That's an outstanding attitude in fact. More often then not I have to let stuff wash off the side of my shoulder because it's not even worth it to even bother. I do agree [Second] Life does go on. I love that saying. lol Down the road this will just be another in a long line of those messed up situations you can both shake your head at and laugh about. lol

I will leave you this piece of advice on what I found works best for me on staying on the chillax side of things. When people call themselves doing what ever with my chat logs I generally laugh in their face. Never let them see your bothered as they will take it for a sign of weakness. I am also a big fan of that block and mute feature SL has. It's magic girlfriend because it's an instant drama killer. lol I've used it more times then I can count over the years with an auto message for block saying something to effect of like don't go way mad. Just go away. You go poofy now. Poof!!!! lol

Then again I am a gamer so I tend to have that mentality on here that if people really wanted to mess with me and they had some type of real actual skill then they'd play one of a dozen other games I play like Rust for example and try to raid my base so they could feed my saralac pit. My sarlacc is hungry. lol We can talk about the stages of death even so that I may bring them in to acceptance. Lmao!!!! 😜

I wouldn't worry to much about anything becoming a legal matter on here. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and a handle on things. I think you will be all right. You rock so don't let anybody get you down. Good luck.

[Nalates Urriah]

On 10/18/2019 at 12:27 PM, BlueVioletVixen Lorefield said:

Also, lawbreakers are banking on "the fact" that anything to do with the court system takes a LONG time and can be VERY pricey, so the plaintiff may be off-put or deterred.  ...To which, I say, "If you have lost everything, then you have nothing to lose by fighting for the restoration of your dignity."

My personal legacy is that you always hit harder when you find a way to do it, playing by the rules.  If you hit below the belt, you are weak, amongst other not-so-great adjectives, that will inevitably surface to define your character's legacy and deductively conclude it.  <---Proverbs & idioms: "lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas" + "you reap what you sow."

The problem of losing everything is it means one has nothing left to fight with...

Most people that can't fight back within the system will find ways to retaliate outside the system. These means do not have to be 'illegal' and often aren't. And even those that are illegal leave people feeling justified in their use. The movie industry makes good use of this sentiment to maintain a profit margin.

SL has its share of vigilante groups. They are one of the factors that makes Abuse Report enforcement in SL such a complex task.

The governance team is not anonymous. You just have to know where to look to find them. Once a month you can talk with them. They won't talk about individual problems. You can however tell them your specific complaints about specific people... and they will hear you but tell you to file an Abuse Report.

 

Quote

How can I be sure?

One reads the ToS and Community Standards. If you can't understand those then you hire an attorney to do the interpretation. Otherwise you decide who to trust.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Nalates Urriah
Added to

[MajikVixen Lorefield]

On 10/28/2019 at 1:41 PM, Nalates Urriah said:

The problem of losing everything is it means one has nothing left to fight with...

That may be true for a bit, but the only constant is change.  Humans are not prone to stay stagnant, it goes against nature.  Balance, sure, but evolution has ingrained in us the very potent ability to adapt and survive *also may point to the laws of physics here* 

...There is statistically a possibility for some very negative outcomes and, lordy, I don't want to even think about those, but hopefully, it doesn't have to come to that and there will be no example to draw from on that note.

 

On 10/28/2019 at 1:41 PM, Nalates Urriah said:

Most people that can't fight back within the system will find ways to retaliate outside the system. These means do not have to be 'illegal' and often aren't. And even those that are illegal leave people feeling justified in their use. The movie industry makes good use of this sentiment to maintain a profit margin.

SL has its share of vigilante groups. They are one of the factors that makes Abuse Report enforcement in SL such a complex task.

 

This is very informative, thank you!  

 

On 10/28/2019 at 1:41 PM, Nalates Urriah said:

The governance team is not anonymous. You just have to know where to look to find them. Once a month you can talk with them. They won't talk about individual problems. You can however tell them your specific complaints about specific people... and they will hear you but tell you to file an Abuse Report.

 

That's also very informative, thank you!  It kinda also backs up what Lindal said them being about 5 ppl.  And yeah, I did know they have meetings: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:User_Groups, I just wasn't aware earlier that Governance was the department that handled ARs.

 

On 10/28/2019 at 1:41 PM, Nalates Urriah said:

On 10/13/2019 at 9:53 AM, BlueVioletVixen Lorefield said:

• How can I be sure?

One reads the ToS and Community Standards. If you can't understand those then you hire an attorney to do the interpretation. Otherwise you decide who to trust.

...Well, I know that now, from having done this forum post.  But I did not before (also feel I should mention that the forums have been the only help I've gotten on this so far). 

I've read the ToS quite a few times, and the loop-hole still caught me by surprise.  It's not exactly clear (I did mention earlier that there can be children, foreigners, ppl with [cognitive] disabilities/disadvantages, etc., stumbling into and becoming accustomed to what they believe is a wondrously pleasant SL (as they may be escaping RL), and they may not be aware they need to either: A) hire a lawyer, or B) know boundaries on who exactly they can trust)...

It's not exactly like RL, where yes, stores/public places of business will likely have video cameras... But you really don't think some friend you invite into your home will be recording everything you say so they can later use it against you, because you're busy doing the very intimate thing of hanging out and watching TV - in SL, everything you type can be recorded, sure ... But I felt safe, knowing that chat logs cannot be shared -just- I didn't realize they can be shared outside of SL (per the asinine loop-hole) (LL really ought to take a copyright of everything said/done in SL to prevent this, but, OMG, that's another can of worms).  In RL, I might know where someone I invited into my home lives or works... I can politely confront them, or see the expression on their face or their body language to judge whether or not (or how far) to trust them.  It's not the same in SL.  Not everyone emotes.  Not everyone voices.  Not everyone has Bento.  Everyone can make an alt.  Cultures from all over the world.  Barriers.  Etc.  Etc.

...So, if this is the case, then perhaps the "obvious" needs to be pointed out in the ToS, i.e., "Please consult your attorney, if you cannot clearly interpret our ToS..." And I guess, never mind the fitting Miranda Rights part to this chat-log loop-hole where, "you have the right to remain silent..." "...anything you say and do can and will be used against you in a court of law..." "...you have the right to an attorney..." "...if you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you, at no cost..." 😆