Gachas, Inworld and Marketplace

[Waiomao]

Gachas seem to be popular items, but I see a lot of sellers on Marketplace marking gachas with huge, sometimes surly disclaimers. Most are along the lines of "buy at your own risk, zero refunds, zero redeliveries." That doesn't sound legit, and I avoided gachas... until tonight. I was in a friendly sim, saw an interesting gacha item for just L30, and took a gamble.

Nothing was delivered. I wasn't surprised.

I sent a friendly IM to the seller (there were numerous copies of this item available) and asked when delivery would be fixed. Before a reply came, SL sent an automated message:

"Your object has been returned to your inventory Lost and Found folder by <sim> due to parcel auto return."

Strange, I had never received the item so could not have lost it. This made me wonder - when buying a gacha inworld should I right-click > take it? Maybe so.

In any case, I opened Inventory, went to my Lost And Found, and the gacha item was... not there. I sent back to the sim where I purchased the gacha, right-clicked on each identical item in the seller's collection, but none indicated "take."

Maybe the system returned it to a different folder, or the object was titled something unusual. So I searched my inventory for keywords, parts of the object's name, and other "close" words. No match. I then re-sorted my inventory by "Most Recent," but still no luck.

The object in question was a Japanese fan with an floral design to hang on the wall, so wouldn't have been blocked by a G/M/A content filter along the way.

Maybe the SL Lost And Found process copies the item, deletes what was found, and sends the copy to the owner. If so, maybe this "copy and paste" process wouldn't work for gachas (nor for any other "no copy" items.

Long story short, this made me sympathize with residents who have complained of not receiving gachas. I also had to sympathize with the gacha sellers, because the system itself did not send the item to my Lost And Found folder as it had indicated. I understand that gachas may be a big part of SL economy, but if these items continue to cause problems for residents, sellers, and likely for SL then that part of the economy is making SL sick. I'm glad that some people have a good time with gachas, but given how many feel ripped off by them I'm surprised that SL allows the problem to continue.

Maybe there's no need to get rid of gachas, just to change them. Could the permissions be modified by the original gacha builder so that they are sold with C/M/T options? This or other alterations might interfere with the resale trade, which it seems is the root of the problem - not the gacha, but some of the many hands they pass through as they are sold and resold. Too many dealers taking a cut, until finally the buyer gets nothing...

Lesson learned: no more gachas for me. And because gachas in Marketplace aren't always labeled as such, from now on I'll be buying only items with "copy" permission.

Mahalo / thanks for listening to me vent.

 

[Branesergen]

Yes you need to right click buy then right click take. As for being returned, my bet is relog and it will be there.

[Tari Landar]

If you relog and it doesn't show up, it was eaten by the abyss that is..well, doesn't have a name, I guess, just the abyss. Sometimes, that can happen with no copy items, and nearly all gachas are no copy.

The perms on gachas can't really be changed, without also changing the entire perms system, and doing that would likely break more than it would fix. The no copy items disappearing when returned(as in this instance) has been something that has plagued sl since, the dawn of sl. It's not just gachas, it can happen to ANY no copy item. It doesn't always happen, and in lots of cases the item does eventually show up. But then you have some instances where it doesn't, fr some folks, LOTS of those instances. 

Back in, I want to say it was 2009, and it was definitely early spring here, there was an entire month straight where LL was having to restart, roll out new updates to the grid, found everything borked, revert back to old versions, try it again, lots of other things got borked....and it was a vicious cycle. Not kidding it lasted an entire month straight, even had weekends where everything just went down for hours on end, few times it didn't come back at all for most residents for days straight, and was HELL for anyone who had anything no copy rezzed (but, it would also be hell if you tried to pick it up, because it would have the same effect). I think that was honestly the first time LL realized this was a serious issue. It existed before, it was just pure torture that month because it was on such a grand scale. It's never really been addressed other than  by saying "be careful with no copy items, bad ***** can happen if it gets returned", or, well, the pg version, lol. I have serious doubts that it's something LL can easily fix,  though I believe it could be fixed, its probably way too big of an undertaking and would break even more stuff-so I'd rather LL keep their hands off it, lol. It's just something most of us have gotten used to over the years, so much so that a lot of us forget it's an issue, because we vow to rarely, if ever, buy no copy items. I lost a LOT of stuff that month, like most other people. Items that LL has always maintained, couldn't be returned (I think that's a load of .... though I will admit it may be difficult, the assets exist they don't just vanish from every bit of code ever, lol, but I digress..)

[Skell Dagger]

Branesergen is correct: a relog will have the item showing in your Lost & Found folder.

But - to explain why this happened so that you have a better understanding of what to do in the future (and hopefully won't be put off buying gachas from inworld places!) - I've just logged two alts to check this for you, and - in short - the whole thing you describe occurred for one simple reason: when you were notified by your viewer that you were now the owner of the object you purchased, you should have picked it up.

Summary below:

• Rez Zone = the place where the item is rezzed out for sale. This land is set to the Rez Zone Group and the land settings are for group-only rezzing and an autoreturn time of 1 minute.
• Seller = the person selling the object. Seller is a member of the Rez Zone Group.
• Buyer = the person buying the object. Buyer is not a member of the Rez Zone Group. Buyer has Clothing Store Group tag active during the entire experiment.
• Object = the item for sale. Object is rezzed by Seller under the Rez Zone group.

What should happen:

• Object is rezzed out for sale ("buy original" - meaning you're buying the actual rezzed item, not its contents or a copy of it). It's rezzed out in the Rez Zone area, under the Rez Zone group, by Seller.
• Buyer comes along with Clothing Store group tag active. Buyer pays for Object. Buyer's viewer then gives them the following notice:
• 
• The group that Object is rezzed under immediately changes to Clothing Store group. This means that Rez Zone's 1 minute autoreturn countdown starts ticking.
• Buyer right-clicks Object and selects 'Take' within that 1 minute countdown. Object goes into Buyer's inventory.
• Everyone is happy

What happened in your situation:

• Object is rezzed out for sale ("buy original" - meaning you're buying the actual rezzed item, not its contents or a copy of it). It's rezzed out in the Rez Zone area, under the Rez Zone group, by Seller.
• Buyer (you) comes along with Clothing Store group tag active (or even no group tag; the crucial thing is that Buyer is not a member of Rez Zone group). Buyer pays for object. Buyer's viewer gives them the same "you are now the owner" notice as above.
• The group that Object is rezzed under immediately changes to Clothing Store group (or - in the case of Buyer not wearing any group tag - to no group). This means that Rez Zone's 1 minute autoreturn countdown starts ticking.
• Buyer does not 'take' object.
• Rez Zone's 1 minute countdown finishes and Buyer receives the notice in their viewer that Object has been returned to their Lost & Found folder. Buyer looks in Lost & Found folder, but doesn't see Object.
• Seller is none the wiser, but Buyer is sad
• Buyer relogs, and yay! Object is now in their Lost & Found folder!

What happens is some weirdly complicated loop-the-loop performed by the server, but Object will not appear in Lost & Found at once, because Buyer didn't 'take' it. It will only appear in Lost & Found after a relog. Whether this is just the server catching up or getting a bit screwy (example: ever crashed out while changing your look, and - when you log back in - your avatar is a crazy mixture of the old look and the new?) I've no idea, but I've just tested it and verified that the above is exactly what happens.

4 hours ago, Waiomao said:

I sent back to the sim where I purchased the gacha, right-clicked on each identical item in the seller's collection, but none indicated "take."

The reason why none of the other items rezzed out by the seller indicated 'take' is that you can only take things (in this specific case) that you have purchased, and that have given you the "you are now the owner" message. Since you hadn't purchased any of those items, the option wasn't available to you.

Edited October 13, 2019 by Skell Dagger

[FairreLilette]

Since there is only ONE Gacha item if it is rezzed and for sale you need to right click on the item and choose TAKE because that Gacha turned into YOUR NAME upon purchase (inworld only) procedure.

The above is the way you purchase any rezzed Gacha item inworld.  You buy it, then right click and choose TAKE from the pie menu of the one you bought.

As was said above, after relog it should now be able to be searched for.  

Some sellers of Gacha allow you to trade your mod/transfer or transfer Gacha for a copy/mod or copy version.  As far as other Gacha sellers who will allow trade for a copy/mod or copy version I only know of three:  myself, DRD and Nomad.  With DRD you need to not open the item though.  With DRD you will get a message such as:  DO NOT OPEN YOUR GACHA if you'd like to trade for a copy/mod version in local chat.  And, then I think she has a terminal for exchange.  For mine, I have a notecard next to the Gacha game itself explaining about the items and the trade and I have a mailbox in front of my store where you drop me a notecard letting me know what Gacha you would like to exchange for a copy/mod version.  One item of mine can only be exchanged for a copy version though due to the way it is made.  

If someone ever builds an exchange terminal where people can drop in their mod/transfer Gacha and receive an exchange for a copy/mod version, let me know!  

As far as your mentioning copy/mod/transfer versions that can only be done for full perm items.  It will never happen for Gachas or any other item you buy which is not full perm.  

EDIT more info:  To anyone:  If you are interested in which sellers have an exchange policy for their Gachas, join the inworld group ALL THINGS GACHAS as they would most likely know which sellers currently allow exchanges for a copy/mod version.  I'd use an alt though as your IM's will cap overnight and with an alt you can just transfer the item(s).  Don't send too many at once to your alt though as that could cap as well.  Send a small amount at a time to your alt.  Or, you can just unjoin the group after you ask your question if you don't want your IM's to cap.  All Things Gachas has info for the new events too if you are interested plus a lot of sales, great sales.  And you always choose TAKE from the pie menu of each Gacha you paid for (inworld) only.

Edited October 13, 2019 by FairreLilette

[Polenth Yue]

Buying gacha resells inworld is generally the safest route, as long as you remember to pick the item up. It means you can see the item and know what you're buying. The marketplace will deliver the item you buy direct to your inventory, but you only have the seller's word that the item is in the box. None of that was really new for gacha though, as it's always been how it is for no copy / transfer items. There have been yard says for items with those permissions since I first joined (and they always required you to pick up the item on purchase). There are just more items like that these days with gacha.

[Aemeth Lysette]

When no-copy items are returned to your inventory, they don't show up right away. You usually have to relog to see them. Then they're right there and you can grab them again.

[FairreLilette]

6 minutes ago, Aemeth Lysette said:

When no-copy items are returned to your inventory, they don't show up right away. You usually have to relog to see them. Then they're right there and you can grab them again.

Yes, this is true for rezzing Gachas if you have the wrong name tag on for example.  Is that true for LOST and FOUND folder also?  Or, do you just look in the RECENT section of your inventory?  

[Waiomao]

Thanks for your wise words everybody. I understand now that after purchase, gachas are not delivered to the buyer like other objects. Instead they must be right-clicked and taken. Also, that if this step is missed, the gacha should later appear in the buyer's lost and found (similarly to items left at a sandbox), but only after logging out and back in.

The seller in this case did reply to my IM overnight, was very friendly, and even provided a free identical item. She added that I should return the original item should it be found, thus displaying a nice level of trust.

This process has reassured me somewhat about buying gachas; after all, the problem in this case was my own lack of knowledge. But enough potential abuses remain that I'll have to be very tempted by a gacha before purchasing one again.

Here I am with my first gacha hanging in my home :-)

[Tari Landar]

5 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Yes, this is true for rezzing Gachas if you have the wrong name tag on for example.  Is that true for LOST and FOUND folder also?  Or, do you just look in the RECENT section of your inventory?  

When they're returned, they are coded to be returned to lost and found. However...this being sl, they don't always do what they're told, and sometimes they end up in the objects folder, lol. (I don't think this happens with the same amount of regularity it used to, LL may have worked a bit on this issue, I dunno. I definitely see it way less frequently). Checking your recent tab should show them, provided you have your filters set to the right time frame to show them . I know some folks keep those filters at like an hour, for whatever reason, so if it's been over an hour, the recent tab won't show them, but they're still there, just not on that tab, make sense?

[Waiomao]

Aloha. One more thing to add: I have learned that when gachas are bought inworld from a vending machine that it is not possible to right-click > take as mentioned above. When purchasing from a vending machine, the item *should* appear in your inventory.

So much to learn about these things! 🙂

[FairreLilette]

14 minutes ago, Waiomao said:

Aloha. One more thing to add: I have learned that when gachas are bought inworld from a vending machine that it is not possible to right-click > take as mentioned above. When purchasing from a vending machine, the item *should* appear in your inventory.

So much to learn about these things! 🙂

Yes, that's because the items in the vending machine are not rezzed.  

Since Gacha items are no copy, if one is rezzed...there is no copy...so it's set to original and then it turns into your name as the owner of the rezzed Gacha after purchase.  Even if there are several Gachas set out of the same item, you have to purchase them one by one and choose TAKE for each one you purchased (rezzed Gachas only).  

I hope that makes sense.  

Edited October 14, 2019 by FairreLilette

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

22 hours ago, Waiomao said:

Gachas seem to be popular items, but I see a lot of sellers on Marketplace marking gachas with huge, sometimes surly disclaimers. Most are along the lines of "buy at your own risk, zero refunds, zero redeliveries." That doesn't sound legit, and I avoided gachas... until tonight. I was in a friendly sim, saw an interesting gacha item for just L30, and took a gamble.

Nothing was delivered. I wasn't surprised.

I sent a friendly IM to the seller (there were numerous copies of this item available) and asked when delivery would be fixed. Before a reply came, SL sent an automated message:

"Your object has been returned to your inventory Lost and Found folder by <sim> due to parcel auto return."

Strange, I had never received the item so could not have lost it. This made me wonder - when buying a gacha inworld should I right-click > take it? Maybe so.

In any case, I opened Inventory, went to my Lost And Found, and the gacha item was... not there. I sent back to the sim where I purchased the gacha, right-clicked on each identical item in the seller's collection, but none indicated "take."

Maybe the system returned it to a different folder, or the object was titled something unusual. So I searched my inventory for keywords, parts of the object's name, and other "close" words. No match. I then re-sorted my inventory by "Most Recent," but still no luck.

The object in question was a Japanese fan with an floral design to hang on the wall, so wouldn't have been blocked by a G/M/A content filter along the way.

Maybe the SL Lost And Found process copies the item, deletes what was found, and sends the copy to the owner. If so, maybe this "copy and paste" process wouldn't work for gachas (nor for any other "no copy" items.

Long story short, this made me sympathize with residents who have complained of not receiving gachas. I also had to sympathize with the gacha sellers, because the system itself did not send the item to my Lost And Found folder as it had indicated. I understand that gachas may be a big part of SL economy, but if these items continue to cause problems for residents, sellers, and likely for SL then that part of the economy is making SL sick. I'm glad that some people have a good time with gachas, but given how many feel ripped off by them I'm surprised that SL allows the problem to continue.

Maybe there's no need to get rid of gachas, just to change them. Could the permissions be modified by the original gacha builder so that they are sold with C/M/T options? This or other alterations might interfere with the resale trade, which it seems is the root of the problem - not the gacha, but some of the many hands they pass through as they are sold and resold. Too many dealers taking a cut, until finally the buyer gets nothing...

Lesson learned: no more gachas for me. And because gachas in Marketplace aren't always labeled as such, from now on I'll be buying only items with "copy" permission.

Mahalo / thanks for listening to me vent.

 

gachas are a scam. I refuse to do them

[Aemeth Lysette]

14 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Yes, this is true for rezzing Gachas if you have the wrong name tag on for example.  Is that true for LOST and FOUND folder also?  Or, do you just look in the RECENT section of your inventory?  

Yep! Usually when a gacha ends up like that and you have to relog, you'll most likely find it in the Lost and Found folder.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 10/13/2019 at 1:54 AM, Waiomao said:

Gachas seem to be popular items, but I see a lot of sellers on Marketplace marking gachas with huge, sometimes surly disclaimers. Most are along the lines of "buy at your own risk, zero refunds, zero redeliveries." That doesn't sound legit, and I avoided gachas... until tonight. I was in a friendly sim, saw an interesting gacha item for just L30, and took a gamble.

Nothing was delivered. I wasn't surprised.

I sent a friendly IM to the seller (there were numerous copies of this item available) and asked when delivery would be fixed. Before a reply came, SL sent an automated message:

"Your object has been returned to your inventory Lost and Found folder by <sim> due to parcel auto return."

Strange, I had never received the item so could not have lost it. This made me wonder - when buying a gacha inworld should I right-click > take it? Maybe so.

In any case, I opened Inventory, went to my Lost And Found, and the gacha item was... not there. I sent back to the sim where I purchased the gacha, right-clicked on each identical item in the seller's collection, but none indicated "take."

Maybe the system returned it to a different folder, or the object was titled something unusual. So I searched my inventory for keywords, parts of the object's name, and other "close" words. No match. I then re-sorted my inventory by "Most Recent," but still no luck.

The object in question was a Japanese fan with an floral design to hang on the wall, so wouldn't have been blocked by a G/M/A content filter along the way.

Maybe the SL Lost And Found process copies the item, deletes what was found, and sends the copy to the owner. If so, maybe this "copy and paste" process wouldn't work for gachas (nor for any other "no copy" items.

Long story short, this made me sympathize with residents who have complained of not receiving gachas. I also had to sympathize with the gacha sellers, because the system itself did not send the item to my Lost And Found folder as it had indicated. I understand that gachas may be a big part of SL economy, but if these items continue to cause problems for residents, sellers, and likely for SL then that part of the economy is making SL sick. I'm glad that some people have a good time with gachas, but given how many feel ripped off by them I'm surprised that SL allows the problem to continue.

Maybe there's no need to get rid of gachas, just to change them. Could the permissions be modified by the original gacha builder so that they are sold with C/M/T options? This or other alterations might interfere with the resale trade, which it seems is the root of the problem - not the gacha, but some of the many hands they pass through as they are sold and resold. Too many dealers taking a cut, until finally the buyer gets nothing...

Lesson learned: no more gachas for me. And because gachas in Marketplace aren't always labeled as such, from now on I'll be buying only items with "copy" permission.

Mahalo / thanks for listening to me vent.

 

I think what happened is you experienced the "bounce mesh" problem. When you attempt to put out many mesh gatchas on other mesh, they bounce. I'm told this is due to poorly-made mesh. You get a notice even on land your own "The owner of this land does not allow..." as if you didn't have the group. It doesn't then return to "Lost and Found". It disappears from inventory until you relog. Did you relog before attempting you search? Then it seems to be in the general objects file unless you filed it.

That is, if you bought it from the MP and put it out on your land, which I'm confused about. The "take" issue only applies if you buy it inworld.

I can understand why those sellers put up those lengthy and crazy disclaimers, because scammers claim they lost something and wangle another free one that way. Most real merchants, not re-sellers, will demand a chat history and "my accounts" entry to send you gatchas again. 

I think it's safer to buy them inworld, and I often do that for people who see something on the MP if it is an expensive rare. But the bottom line is, once they pay me, it leaves my inventory, and after that, I truly am not responsible.

The whole point of gatchas is not to make them copyable so that they have value. You can't put them on copy or no one would buy them from the machines.

I've had the experience you describe once or twice on the MP in buying zillions of gatchas. It's not a reason not to buy them on the MP.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Prokofy Neva

[Lindal Kidd]

On 10/13/2019 at 9:56 PM, Waiomao said:

Aloha. One more thing to add: I have learned that when gachas are bought inworld from a vending machine that it is not possible to right-click > take as mentioned above. When purchasing from a vending machine, the item *should* appear in your inventory.

So much to learn about these things! 🙂

It's not that there's something special about gacha prizes per se.  It has to do with an item's permissions, how it is sold, and the land settings of the parcel where it is located.

Items have three permissions:  Copy, Modify, and Transfer.  Most things are either Copy/No Transfer, or No Copy/Transfer.  Both have advantages and disadvantages.  Copy/No Transfer items allow you to make all the copies you want.  Lost your airplane?  No problem, just rez another one.  Want a grove of apple trees?  Sure thing!  But you can't re-sell the object, or give it away.  No Copy/Transfer items act like a real object.  You can only ever have one of them.  It can be there in your inventory.  If you rez it to put it into your SL home, it leaves your inventory and is there on your shelf.  If you sell it or give it away, you no longer have it...the person you gave it to has it.  A lot of jewelry is No Copy/Transfer, and so are most Gacha prizes.

Most items are sold from vendors.  When you pay a vendor, it sends you a copy of the item you paid for.  In fact, you are doing this when you play a gacha game at a store!  The gacha machine sends you a random selection of its prizes. 

But at yard sales and gacha resale places, you are buying the actual item, not paying a vendor to send you a copy.  Once you pay the box that contains the item, you are now its owner.  You must then right click the box again and choose Take from the context menu.

Which brings us to the land settings.  A land parcel can be set by its owner to automatically return objects that don't belong to the land owner, or a designated group.  This helps prevent littering.  When autoreturn is enabled, if you don't belong to the correct group, any objects that belong to you will get returned to you after the designated autoreturn period.  Public sandboxes do this, with autoreturn times typically set to 3-5 hours.  When you bought the yard sale/gacha resale item, it became yours, and the autoreturn clock began ticking.

(Apologies to @Skell Dagger.  Your explanation said the same thing, and maybe better.  But the OP still seemed to be a little confused, so I stuck my oar in.)