BOM needs to auto-calculate Normal and Spectral layers like Sansar

[Kyrah Abattoir]

6 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

Lots of people (myself included) couldn't care less about anyone's need to use some ancient skin (even less so about ancient system clothes) on their mesh body/head, that also need a 3rd party or own (if you can make it) "fix" for the nails.

At no point did I mention the use of legacy skins, my body & head don't even conform to the original LL UVs to begin with so you completely missed my point.

6 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

wasted development

Matter of perspective.

6 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

stupidly high li "tax"

It was discussed to death during the meetings, the cost was a balancing act, And while it isn't great, the goal was to prevent people from covering entire regions with animesh trees, doors, swingsets, fishes and tumbleweeds. And yeah the result is that mesh bodies & clothes are completely unsuitable for this purpose because attachments have been mostly unmetered for the past 15 years and any attempt at course correction has been met with fierce opposition.

But this situation, is hopefully being resolved (arctan).

6 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

it did phase out attachents that were animated frame-by-frame and were unreasonably heavy

If only there was an actual way to phase out things in SL that shouldn't exist anymore...

 

On 10/31/2019 at 2:29 AM, Drayke Newall said:

Why don't LL just treat the resident name as the username, permanently hide it from view in world and let display names be the manner in which you are shown in world. It's how every other gaming and software company do things where you have a hidden username and a display name shown in all other areas, yet LL are diverting much needed resources into bringing back something that is meaningless to all but a few and, completely against the current trend both in functionality as well as security of modern software.

Because display names are non-unique?

Even on system where your login and "display name" are different, the displayed name is either unique/or you have some sort of userid#.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Kyrah Abattoir

[Drayke Newall]

17 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

If only there was an actual way to phase out things in SL that shouldn't exist anymore...

There is, break them so they no longer work and/or remove them from marketplace listings. The problem here is that LL are adamant on never doing this.

From memory the only time I have seen an instance of LL breaking a terribly implemented system is with invisiprims on bodies. The change to invisiprims on avatars completely ensured their removal on avatars overnight due to them being visible, so everyone removed them.

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Because display names are non-unique?

Even on system where your login and "display name" are different, the displayed name is either unique/or you have some sort of userid#.

Getting off topic with this though I suppose me posting the example did open it up for responses.

Yes correct and that is how it should be in SL, more and more companies especially in online worlds are moving to a system where every account is treated as a unique 'handle' (account name in SL) and then allowing people to use whatever name they please that are non unique (Display name in SL) across the world. What is this obsession in SL that everyone wants a unique name? I think the more frustrating one would be that someone has taken my name and I cant use it because it is already taken which is the problem with unique names.

The same problem existed when last names were still available in SL where people wouldn't sign up until they saw a last name they liked, because someone had already taken their desired first name leaving only horrible sounding last names to choose from or they counted the introduction of a display name as a blessing due to being able to change their name finally to one they liked.

Also, the problem many companies found is that by having unique names meant that you get usernames that confuse the system and users such as using Alt Code replacements, or just random names such as in SL's case "123456789 Resident". By having the username hidden who cares about '123456789 Resident' as it wont be seen. On a system management side for all things security, payment, help etc all that matters is the username so having it random doesn't mean anything.

Additionally in a virtual world environment why should there be a unique name, as the virtual world should reflect RL. Do you see John Smith in the real world unhappy that someone else has his name? No, it is accepted and why cant that be the case in a virtual world.

[Theresa Tennyson]

8 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

There is, break them so they no longer work and/or remove them from marketplace listings. The problem here is that LL are adamant on never doing this.

From memory the only time I have seen an instance of LL breaking a terribly implemented system is with invisiprims on bodies. The change to invisiprims on avatars completely ensured their removal on avatars overnight due to them being visible, so everyone removed them.

 

Texture switching is a perfectly ordinary script function that has many uses other than avatar attachments. Trying to "break" that function would be the same as trying to reduce bad language by removing the letters "f", "c", "u" and "k" from the alphabet. And invisiprims still work with advanced lighting off - some boat makers use them to hide water that would otherwise appear inside boats.

8 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Yes correct and that is how it should be in SL, more and more companies especially in online worlds are moving to a system where every account is treated as a unique 'handle' (account name in SL) and then allowing people to use whatever name they please that are non unique (Display name in SL) across the world. What is this obsession in SL that everyone wants a unique name? I think the more frustrating one would be that someone has taken my name and I cant use it because it is already taken which is the problem with unique names.

Do those virtual worlds allow in-world transactions between players that can involve hundreds or thousands of real-world dollars? With the way Second Life works there's more of a need to avoid fraud which is made difficult or impossible when others in-world can't tie an avatar to a specific account.

[steeljane42]

10 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

It was discussed to death during the meetings, the cost was a balancing act, And while it isn't great, the goal was to prevent people from covering entire regions with animesh trees, doors, swingsets, fishes and tumbleweeds.

Yeah, makes sense. But their implementation made it another wasted dev time. It's barely used for attachments and most often those have bento version included anyway, which works almost exactly the same (except being rigged, while animesh is not). *We made a thing that can be used in a way we don't want to*. Might as well not make it at all.

9 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Matter of perspective.

That I will agree you with. Never said that everyone are or should find it useless. But for me it is. 1.5 years of dev time on something subpar like BoM. Probably other kind of devs that worked on it, but could be some bento 1.2 instead, with more bones. Oh well.

9 hours ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

If only there was an actual way to phase out things in SL that shouldn't exist anymore...

And who'll decide on what should exist and what shouldn't? LL, the same 10 residents that have time to attend in-world user group meetings for years? Just creation date, outdated tech? I still see (even on forums) people praising flexi hair, while I think they are awful and ugly and everything, but not realistic looking. Same is true for far too many things. Removing things people paid money for, especially if it's something that affects many people, is awful business practice and surely won't do good for already shrinking LL userbase.

That's why I'm pretty sure that ARCtan won't do anything for rigged mesh attachments. By time it's out, it will be at least 7-8 years of rigged mesh content. And aside of land I'm pretty sure it's the largest market (and this LL's income) by far. You really don't expect LL to kill it overnight by saying "nope, you can't use it" or "here's new limits, you can use 1 rigged attachment". Might as well flick the switch and say SL is closed then.

 

[Teagan Tobias]

 

Leave my flexi hair the frell alone!

 

[Kyrah Abattoir]

10 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

And who'll decide on what should exist and what shouldn't?

I humbly volunteer

[Drayke Newall]

14 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Texture switching is a perfectly ordinary script function that has many uses other than avatar attachments. Trying to "break" that function would be the same as trying to reduce bad language by removing the letters "f", "c", "u" and "k" from the alphabet. And invisiprims still work with advanced lighting off - some boat makers use them to hide water that would otherwise appear inside boats.

🙄 That's an entirely different scenario and opposite to what was being talked about. What was being talked about was the ability to wear texture switching objects to give a movement effect of a tail or the like of which was what I was replying to by saying break it. That is to say, remove the ability to wear such items all of which can still be worn, including the massively laggy texture switching wearable pets. Do I really need to point out each time specifically what was the meaning behind my response because people can't track what is and isn't being responded to... Sheesh

If people want to go use antiquated graphics to remove water from a boat, to each their own. Doesn't change the fact that the system was still broken for mostly everything else and for the 90% of users who do use full graphics. It also highlights a huge area that should also be fixed that Linden Lab still refuse to look into, the ability of allowing the removal of linden water form certain areas. 

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Do those virtual worlds allow in-world transactions between players that can involve hundreds or thousands of real-world dollars? With the way Second Life works there's more of a need to avoid fraud which is made difficult or impossible when others in-world can't tie an avatar to a specific account.

Yes, they do all the time simply by allowing the account name to be shown during the process of the transaction so you can compare it. But hey apparently what isn't good enough for Steam, the largest gaming store in the world, isn't good enough for Linden Lab.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Drayke Newall

[Theresa Tennyson]

6 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Yes, they do all the time simply by allowing the account name to be shown during the process of the transaction so you can compare it. But hey apparently what isn't good enough for Steam, the largest gaming store in the world, isn't good enough for Linden Lab.

What good is comparing with an account name if you don't know what you're comparing to?

[Drayke Newall]

50 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

What good is comparing with an account name if you don't know what you're comparing to?

Seriously? So not even a multinational behemoth like Steam can convince you its done all the time...

Hopefully OptimoMaximo wont mind me using his phrase where he put it so well...

Quote

Sheesh, I'm done with your utter BS. 

 

[Coby Foden]

22 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

I still see (even on forums) people praising flexi hair, while I think they are awful and ugly and everything, but not realistic looking.

Say what?

 

Flexi still has its uses in some cases. This super cool movement effect is impossible to do with mesh.
In Second Life only flexible prims respond naturally to avatar movement, gravity and wind.

There are bento hairs and some clothes and even bento trees, but all those have totally unnatural looking movement. Some designers of those things even say that "they move with the wind". But the truth is that they don't. It's just forced animation loop going on in them.

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

Seriously? So not even a multinational behemoth like Steam can convince you its done all the time...

 

I'm exactly as convinced that they handle in-world transactions the way you say and it would be applicable to Second Life as I am that Slink just added a layer to the Redux body or that Linden Lab is currently giving newbies mesh bodies.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Theresa Tennyson

[Erwin Solo]

On 11/2/2019 at 8:37 AM, Theresa Tennyson said:

I'm exactly as convinced that they handle in-world transactions the way you say and it would be applicable to Second Life as I am that Slink just added a layer to the Redux body or that Linden Lab is currently giving newbies mesh bodies.

June 10, 2014:

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

35 minutes ago, Erwin Solo said:

June 10, 2014:

 

Annnndddd they kicked those puppies to the curb within a couple of years because they were horrible. The current choices for "human" starter avatars are all default bodies.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

The freedom Second Life offers us can sometimes be a curse.

Some things cannot be done efficiently, and in my opinion, if it can't be done properly, it shouldn't be done at all. For every piece of code/model, there is at least one way to do it properly, and a dozen ways to do it improperly.

And then you have those bad ideas where your internal voice should be screaming at you.

A lot of SL creators have zero consideration for the impact of their work on the grid, either through ignorance, recklessness, or because they simply don't care about things they aren't paid to care about.

To quote one of my favourite movies: "They were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."

[Erwin Solo]

On 11/4/2019 at 7:18 AM, Theresa Tennyson said:

Annnndddd they kicked those puppies to the curb within a couple of years because they were horrible. The current choices for "human" starter avatars are all default bodies.

They're still there.  I find them useful for tester alts.  

[Drayke Newall]

On 11/17/2019 at 4:34 PM, Erwin Solo said:

They're still there.  I find them useful for tester alts.  

I thought they were as well (alongside the default body options) as they are still accessible in the library (well at least they are in mine nicely labeled mesh, though maybe I'm a special case and have a bugged library), but got shot down in another thread from Theresa saying they weren't (which is why she arrogantly responded to my post like she did). I even made an alt last year with the lab created mesh body (the riding horse one). I just can't be bothered arguing with her though so just never responded to her.

[Erwin Solo]

46 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

I thought they were as well (alongside the default body options) as they are still accessible in the library (well at least they are in mine nicely labeled mesh, though maybe I'm a special case and have a bugged library), but got shot down in another thread from Theresa saying they weren't (which is why she arrogantly responded to my post like she did). I even made an alt last year with the lab created mesh body (the riding horse one). I just can't be bothered arguing with her though so just never responded to her.

They are in your inventory because you used them once.  For people who have not used them, they are still accessible via the main-menu "Avatar" and therein select "Choose an Avatar".  Whichever you choose, will be placed in your inventory.  There is also a toolbar button that you can add to do this from the toolbar. 

Linden Viewer: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_3_menus

Firestorm: https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/avatar

[Drayke Newall]

3 hours ago, Erwin Solo said:

They are in your inventory because you used them once.  For people who have not used them, they are still accessible via the main-menu "Avatar" and therein select "Choose an Avatar".  Whichever you choose, will be placed in your inventory.  There is also a toolbar button that you can add to do this from the toolbar. 

Linden Viewer: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Viewer_3_menus

Firestorm: https://wiki.firestormviewer.org/avatar

No not in the inventory but in the library (Linden Lab Library folder) section of the inventory of which any current or older avatars are available no matter whether you have used them or not. It also includes the default male and ruth avatars to use.

[Theresa Tennyson]

8 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

I thought they were as well (alongside the default body options) as they are still accessible in the library (well at least they are in mine nicely labeled mesh, though maybe I'm a special case and have a bugged library), but got shot down in another thread from Theresa saying they weren't (which is why she arrogantly responded to my post like she did). I even made an alt last year with the lab created mesh body (the riding horse one). I just can't be bothered arguing with her though so just never responded to her.

I never said they weren't in your library, I said they weren't issued as standard options to new users. The library even has the old 2008-era avatars as well, they just aren't in the rotation of avatars available to newbies. If you go to the avatar picker, in the viewer it currently gives you four groups of avatars - "New Avatars," "Fantasy", 'Vampires" and "Classic." Only the "Vampires" category has the old mesh bodies; all the "human" options have system bodies now. Which explains why when you made an alt using the template avatar that came with a horse (either "Thomas" or "Rhiannon") it had a system body. Look it up and see.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Theresa Tennyson

[Drayke Newall]

14 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

I never said they weren't in your library, I said they weren't issued as standard options to new users. The library even has the old 2008-era avatars as well, they just aren't in the rotation of avatars available to newbies. If you go to the avatar picker, in the viewer it currently gives you four groups of avatars - "New Avatars," "Fantasy", 'Vampires" and "Classic." Only the "Vampires" category has the old mesh bodies; all the "human" options have system bodies now. Which explains why when you made an alt using the template avatar that came with a horse (either "Thomas" or "Rhiannon") it had a system body. Look it up and see.

I never said they didn't offer the system body either. They have always offered them even when they announced the new mesh bodies they were there. I simply, in reference to BoM in that thread, said "The fact LL offer mesh overlay bodies as default now at account creation while hiding the older system body should say it all". Once again it seems you looked at a post and saw something that was never posted. If I had said "The fact LL offer mesh overlay bodies as default now at account creation "to all bodies" while hiding the older system body..." then I would agree with you, but this wasn't the case when I looked into your response further and I would think most people would still consider vampires as human bodies.

The way you replied then and have posted subsequently, has implied that they don't offer any mesh overlay bodies at all now. For example in red below you clearly state that NO mesh bodies are given to newbies.

On 11/2/2019 at 11:07 PM, Theresa Tennyson said:

I'm exactly as convinced that they handle in-world transactions the way you say and it would be applicable to Second Life as I am that Slink just added a layer to the Redux body or that Linden Lab is currently giving newbies mesh bodies.

This is why, I was confused in the other thread and also why Erwin posted what he did in response to your comment of which, if he would allow me to presume his mood, was equally confused about your post. Seems you finally conceded that they do, only to then narrow it down to "human" bodies as if they are all people talk about, imply or consider human.

Perhaps, its just hard for you to admit a mistake and you dig yourself into a deeper hole. I don't know. I did admit my mistake however regarding the Redux Body to which, you still arrogantly flashed about in your above post as if I had never apologised for the error, maybe in a vain attempt to justify or give credence to your erred statement.

Manners go a long way even in forums as they stop these exact situations of producing near flame wars. It seems though perhaps manners have been lost in this day and age.

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I never said they weren't in your library, I said they weren't issued as standard options to new users. The library even has the old 2008-era avatars as well, they just aren't in the rotation of avatars available to newbies

You don't say... 🙄 I'm pretty sure I said that exact thing in the post right above yours.

I never said you did say they weren't in the library folder. My response to Erwin was simply highlighting that the mesh bodies are available in the current outfit folder in the library. The library separates them into folders with all current available avatars (I.e. at account creation) in their own folder (including all the mesh overlay ones available you have previously said don't exist) and all old previously used ones in a folder appropriately called "older outfits".

I think Paul Keating's (PM of Australia) famous response is appropriate in highlighting your debating skills "... it was like being flogged with warm lettuce. It was like being mauled by a dead sheep."

Also don't expect a reply if you post as, not only is it now way off topic but I just don't have the desire to argue with you anymore.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Drayke Newall

[Theresa Tennyson]

20 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

Also don't expect a reply if you post as, not only is it now way off topic but I just don't have the desire to argue with you anymore.

And the avatar-with-a-horse that you said has a mesh body doesn't. You seemed to overlook that one in your reply.

[Erwin Solo]

On 11/20/2019 at 2:11 AM, Drayke Newall said:

No not in the inventory but in the library (Linden Lab Library folder) section of the inventory of which any current or older avatars are available no matter whether you have used them or not. It also includes the default male and ruth avatars to use.

If one keyword-searches one's inventory, one get search-hits in the library, but yeah technically the Library folder is a parallel folder at the same level and the Inventory folder.